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May 4

Colons vs comma

hello,

I often saw that copyeditors replace colons with commas ahead direct speech or quotes. Do English-speakers really tend to use the colon not so often, like for example in German language? In German language it is correct to place a colon in such situations, and a comma has the task to split sentences. Regards.--GoP_TN 10:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think colons are used to split sentences in English, usually just for lists. A semicolon is used to separate two independent, related clauses which would otherwise have to be written as two sentences or with a conjunction. - filelakeshoe 11:16, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Except for introducing a list, I don't think I have ever used a colon in English. Roger (talk) 12:31, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

That's a dreadful admission, Roger. Colons are lovely little things, far more attractive than yucky old semi-colons. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 12:39, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

There are no hard-and-fast rules; but, in general, colons tend to be used before quoted matter, at least in U.S. usage, in two situations. The first is when the introductory words constitute a complete sentence:

The congressman rose and began his speech with words of defiance: "Blah blah blah."

The second is when the quoted matter consists of several sentences:

John Smith has written: "Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah."

In most other cases, commas are used before (complete-sentence) quotations or instances of direct discourse. Deor (talk) 12:52, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

One of the traditional uses of the colon in English is to separate two sentences that are a contrasting pair, such as "Man proposes: god disposes". I for one still use it in this way on the rare occasions which I write such a thing. (H.W.Fowler. The King's English. Retrieved 2012/05/04. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)). --ColinFine (talk) 12:43, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the colon is exactly right for this type of sentence where the first part leads to the second. For parallel sentences, where either could come first, it is usual to use a semi-colon . Many writers avoid both colons and semi-colons either because they consider them unnecessary or because they don't understand the subtleties of usage (which have changed over time). Some writers avoid commas for similar reasons.

The rules of punctuation in English tend to be less strict than those of other languages, such as German. One reason would be that other languages are controlled by some body, such as l'Académie française, the Norwegian Language Council and the Swedish Language Council, but the English language does not have such a body for maintaining and regulating the development of the language. In addition to determining the spelling of languages and which words are 'acceptable', these bodies can also determine the proper way to use punctuation. When I went to school, the back of my Norwegian dictionary had ten rules for when to use a comma, including the rule that a comma must always precede the word 'but', a rule which I also adhere to when I am writing English, although it seems like few people who have English as their mother tongue are aware of any such rule. V85 (talk) 18:27, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, if one is concerned about transmitting meaning in one's writing, the rule that overrides all others is "Say what you mean (not necessarily the same as what you think you mean)". For example, the rules about the use (or not) of commas in restrictive vs. non-restrictive relative clauses would be disregarded at the writer's peril. Unfortunately, vast numbers of "writers" dispense with commas in both cases (mainly because our fantastic education systems don't teach these rules anymore), and in places like WP, other writers then spend time fixing these errors to make the meanings unambiguous.

Pedants might squirm, but you can probably get away with "My wife whose name is Mary is 35 years old", only because it would be generally assumed that one can have only one wife (at least only only one at a time), and the writer doesn't have another wife, named Lola, squirrelled away somewhere.

But "My brother whose name is Fred is 29 years old" is a different matter. One can have more than one brother. Without more context, that sentence should mean: "I have more than one brother; the name of one of them is Fred, and he is 29". But often it's written by people who want the readers to understand: "I have only one brother; his name is Fred and he's 29". To achieve that meaning unambiguously, it must be written: "My brother, whose name is Fred, is 29 years old". Here's a good summary of the rules. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 00:23, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Gender of collections of nouns in German

How would the phrase "the king and queen" be translated into German (assuming for the moment I'm talking about the nominative case)? I'm not sure which gender the article should be - is it "der König und Königin", because the article is attached to König (in which could it also be "die Königin und König"?) or "die König und Königin", because I've got multiple objects so it's a plural? Or is it something else entirely - would I have to say "der König und die Königin" perhaps? Smurrayinchester 14:03, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

"der König und die Königin" is correct. You can not put only one article ahead a collection of nouns, this is incorrect in German. Regards.--GoP_TN 14:33, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

But, at least in this case, you could as well circumvent the question by just calling them "das Königspaar" (royal couple), what I'd consider to be more common. --Michael Fleischhacker (talk) 15:06, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. I tried guessing it by comparing Google results - "der König und Königin" gets more Google hits than "der König und die Königin", but I decided the fact it was used by the majority didn't necessarily mean it was right. Smurrayinchester 21:17, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I rechecked, and "der König und die Königin" has three times more Google hits than "der König und Königin". Most of the latter belong to different grammatical constructions, like "der König and Königin " or "die Kutsche, in der König und Königin fuhren". There is no question which is the correct form. --KnightMove (talk) 07:58, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

May 5

Snacks and snack bars in German

My German is fairly rusty, and it's been years since I've had any formal education in the language. I distinctly remember, from education and travels, that an Imbiss is a snack bar, but the English reference at is to snack food. Running that article through Google Translate suggests that Imbiss means snack, but can also refer to a snack bar by metonymy. Before exploring the issue further, I added de:Imbiss to the snack bar article. I'm second guessing that now, given the way the de to en reference points. Can a German speaker straighten this out for me? Thanks, BDD (talk) 03:15, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

The German article begins "An Imbiss is a thing-eaten-between-meals. It has the same meaning as the English expression snack." The third heading down, "Verkaufsstand" notes that the word is also used to refer to snack bars, but implies (without spelling it out) that it's short for either "Imbissbude" or "Imbissstand". The main article for the latter term indicates that both those terms are used, as well as "Buffet" or "Wurstelstand" in Austria, and "Take-away" in Switzerland, to mean small take-away snack bars. Personally I've also come across "Schellimbiss", i.e. "quick-snack", to mean a fast-food place. It's pretty clear therefore that corresponds to Snack, and to Snack bar. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:26, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

It isn't helpful that the German article describes both meanings and is therefore ambiguous regarding what the (encyclopedia, not dictionary) article is actually about. But since most of the text is about the food, and the other meaning is an abbreviation or metonymy, "Imbiss" probably shouldn't be linked to the English snack bar article. Selecting the right Interlanguage link can be difficult when there is a lack of uniqueness. The en.wikipedia article on Snack could link to de:Imbiss, but, as it stands, the German article actually links back to Snack food on en.wikipedia. Similarly, Snack bar could link to de:Imbissstand, but here the German article links back to en.wikipedia's article on Take-out. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Good point. What about de:Zwischenmahlzeit for 'snack'? AlexTiefling (talk) 17:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Followup: At present, de:Zwischenmahlzeit links to Tea (meal), which is obviously wrong, since while Tea is an example of Zwischenmahlzeit, so is (for example) second breakfast, which the German article specifically mentions. I think that de.wikipedia's links to en.wikipedia in this area are less than useful. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:58, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I have changed the link to de:Imbiss#Verkaufsstand ... this is not ideal, but according to differences in the concepts, probably best. --KnightMove (talk) 07:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

presentness as opposed to presence

May someone know, please, in which philosophical text or context they have been used for the first time? Many thanks in advance. --Omidinist (talk) 12:26, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I shall move it to Humanities Desk. --Omidinist (talk) 12:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll mark this Q resolved, meaning that the instance on this Desk was resolved, by moving it to another Desk. StuRat (talk) 18:01, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

New def of cynical ?

It's related to def 4 at the link in the title: "showing contempt for accepted moral standards by one's actions". However, that seems a bit vague, as, say, an inter-racial marriage when those were not allowed wouldn't have been called that.

I've seen it used to mean "engaging in behavior which elicits cynicism from others", as in "the politician cynically put his office in a building he owns which charges $1000 for parking, which then goes directly into his pocket". So, is this an accepted usage ? If so, how recent is it ? StuRat (talk) 17:58, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Look at the original cynic... -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:36, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I read it. What lesson am I supposed to get from it ? That cynics defecate in public and wish they were dogs ? StuRat (talk) 04:45, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "vitamin" history question

Please comment at Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Science#Pronunciation of vitamin? if you can help with this. --John (talk) 19:37, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Need a Portuguese translation

Could someone clean up this bit of Google's rendition of Portuguese? My original is

which Google makes into the following:

This comes from a nomination at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2012 May 5; the nominator is {{user pt}} and {{user en-0}}. Nyttend (talk) 22:05, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Never mind — the nominator understood what I was trying to mean. I wonder if he should change his userpage to {{user en-1}} :-) Nyttend (talk) 22:24, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

May 6

Characters in the name Liu Buchan

Hi all. Trying to identify the characters here. "劉" and "歩" are OK, but I don't have a clue what the third character is. --Shirt58 (talk) 03:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

蟾（蟲部加詹) 96.250.5.224 (talk) 04:58, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Is there a 简体字 version? ps: the article has been WP:PROD'd :-( --Shirt58 (talk) 05:24, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

刘步蟾 is the simplified version, 劉步蟾 the traditional. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:34, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Dankeschönberg! --Shirt58 (talk) 14:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Russian - loanwords with 'g' instead of 'h'?

Where does the 'g' come from in loanwords like 'Гелий'/'geliy' (helium), 'Гафний'/'gafniy' (hafnium), etc.? --108.206.4.199 (talk) 19:27, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

This issue was discussed at Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 July 26#Gegel - Philosophy and History. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 19:38, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Harry Hopkins was known in Russia as "Garry Gopkins"... AnonMoos (talk) 20:52, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

That archive doesn't answer the question, though. I assume it has something to do with the fact that Ukrainian Г is /ɦ/, like a Czech h. Somewhere along the line, it would seem, it was decided that Latin /h/ was closer to Г than to Х in whichever Slavic language started this convention, and it was adopted into other languages, including Russian, from there. It would be nice to know the details. — kwami (talk) 21:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

See "h" and "g" in Russian? - Yahoo! Answers.

—Wavelength (talk) 21:16, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

That also doesn't answer the question of why the preference arose. Henry 11:01, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Here's some more online commentary. I don't how authoritative it is. I'm guessing it had the same basic cause as why many English-speakers pronounce words like "loch" and "Mach" and "Bach" as /lock/ and /mahk/ and /bahk/ - it's the closest sound they know how to make. Russians have no experience of the H sound, so they approximate it, and in some cases their G is just as good a choice as their Kh (X). When it comes to names of historical people, a particular pronunciation has become the norm in each case, and the spelling reflects that. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 11:40, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

• In pre-Petrine Russia in the high-style pronunciation the letter Г was pronounced as voiced velar fricative. Then in certain territories "pronunciation diglossia" was possible when a person was speaking in high and ceremonial situations, for example, in church service or in the tsar's palace, he pronounced Г as fricative. And when he was speaking, for example, with his friend in the tavern or with his wife at home, he pronounced Г as plosive /g/. Though it was less widespread as almost in all East Slavic territory Proto-Slavic *g became fricative. Only in Moscow and the territories north to it (including Novgorod) *g remains plosive, and already in Tula, Vyazma or Ryazan it was (and sometimes still is) fricative in everyday speech. So you can see that there was a long established "official" norm for the pronunciation of Г as fricative. And they chose by some reason to represent Latin and European H with it. I don't exactly know why it was Г /ɣ/ and not Х /x/ as the latter is phonetically closer – it both fricative and voiceless, but Г /ɣ/ is voiced. Nevertheless this tradition is from the earliest times. Already in Novgorod birch-bark letters of the 14th century Finnish words with H were written with Г. In the 18th century the pronunciation norm of the high style was shifting to Moscow colloquial speech and by the middle or the end of the century Г became pronounced as plosive /g/. Though in spite of this shift the tradition was too strong so all Greco-Latin and European borrowing of the 18th-19th centuries have Г in the place of H. Only recently European names with H became transliterated with Х (Alfred Hitchcock is Альфред Хичкок), but Greco-Latin words still have Г by tradition as well as old borrowings like Генри, Гамбург, Гайд-Парк (Henry, Hamburg, Hyde Park).
  And, by the way, "pronunciation diglossia" has turned upside down – today exactly in the north the colloquial low style pronunciation of Г is identical to the established norm, and in the south fricative Г is treated as the sign of rural or provincial speech.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 04:47, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this could possibly have anything to do with it, but Slavic languages which use the letter H use a voiced H, not a voiceless one. So perhaps plosive , fricatives and were all allophones of the same phoneme somewhere at some time? - filelakeshoe 06:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Read my explanation above. A type of "register allophony" exists in the Russian territory (formerly it was in the north, today it is in the south). It is unique to Russian. In other Slavic languages where plosive and fricative co-exist, they are different phonemes, /g/ being used for foreign borrowings.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 01:24, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

French election jokes

From French_presidential_election,_2012: "As a way to circumvent the law, code names were assigned: "Flanby" for Hollande, "le nain" (midget) for Sarkozy, Titanic for Marine Le Pen, or Tomate for Mélenchon, as well as other humorous names and metaphors were also used such as Holland, Morocco, Hungary."

I don't know any French, but I still got the Holland pun. What about Morocco and Hungary?Anonymous.translator (talk) 22:24, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Sarkozy's father is Hungarian, and Mélenchon grew up in Morocco. Lesgles (talk) 22:30, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Anonymous.translator (talk) 22:33, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

May 7

4th-iary

After the primary sources document a topic, the secondary sources interpret the primary sources, and then tertiary sources sum up the secondary sources, and in some cases there can be "4th-iary" sources giving meta-analysis on the tertiary sources. There could even conceivably be n-thiary sources for n>4. Are there proper words instead of "4th-iary" etc.? That is, what comes after tertiary? I mostly care about n=4 right now, but if there are some after that, it would be of interest too. Thanks. 64.160.39.217 (talk) 06:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Quandary (as an adjective; confusing since it also serves as an etymologically distinct noun), though you don't hear it that often. Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 06:54, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Never mind that last bit; I could have sworn I've heard "quandary" used in that way before, but no dictionary is backing me up on that. In that case, I'll shut up and wait for someone who knows what they're talking about. : ) Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 06:58, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Quaternary. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 07:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

You are correct! I think I was thinking of this. Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 07:32, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Here's a list of relevant stems ("distributive numerals") from my Gildersleeve and Lodge grammar (remove final "-i" and add final "-ary" to Anglicize): AnonMoos (talk) 08:17, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

1

Singuli

2

Bini

3

Terni (sometimes Trini)

4

Quaterni

5

Quini

6

Seni

7

Septeni

8

Octoni

9

Noveni

10

Deni

11

Undeni

12

Duodeni

20

Viceni

30

Triceni

40

Quadrageni

50

Quinqageni

100

Centeni

200

Duceni

300

Treceni

400

Quadringeni

500

Quingeni

etc.

According to Wiktionary:Quaternary, the series continues as follows:

• quinary (5)
• senary (6)
• septenary (7)
• octonary (8)
• novenary (9)
• nonary (9th)
• denary (10)
• duodenary (12)
• vigenary (20)
• centenary (100).

These match the above except for 20 (vigenary rather than vicenary). -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 08:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Numeral prefix, which is largely an old list of mine Jack could probably improve on. — kwami (talk) 09:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and for numerical bases, you switch systems somewhere between trinary and octal. I think the two might overlap in the intermediate range. — kwami (talk) 09:58, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, the Gildersleeve list seems to mismatch even at n=1 (it indicates singulary, binary and ternary instead of primary, secondary and tertiary). I'm surprised it doesn't say unary rather than singulary. It looks like what I actually want derives from wikt:Category:Latin ordinal numbers. I was having trouble identifying the series of prefixes last night, but looking up "primus" in wiktionary found that category. The Wiktionary list at "quaternary" says "quartary" for ordinal 4, but doesn't go beyond that. I think quarternary, quinary, etc. are supposed to indicate cardinals (i.e. quantities) rather than ordinals (i.e. ranks). I guess "quartary" suffices for my purpose (I mostly needed the word for n=4). 64.160.39.217 (talk) 17:14, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

The ordinals go primus, secundus, tertius, quartus, quintus, sextus, septimus, octavus, nonus, decimus, vicesimus, centesimus etc., and so don't match "quaternary" at all... AnonMoos (talk) 00:26, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Btw, "duodenary" had me wondering about why the duodenum would have been so named. Wiktionary:duodenum confirms the relationship to 12: its length is supposedly equal to "the space of 12 digits". The things you read. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 20:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Which explains its German name Zwölffingerdarm, literally "twelve-finger intestine". Angr (talk) 21:37, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Remind me to avoid Intestine City on my next trip to Germany. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 00:06, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Spanish abbreviations

In Spanish, "S." is San and "Sn." Santa, correct? Can I rely on the n making it feminine? — kwami (talk) 12:18, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but I thought that Sto. and Sta. were the usual abbreviations of Santo and Santa. See, for instance, the abbreviation used for "Santo Domingo" in the publication info here. Deor (talk) 13:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Never mind. It appears both S. and Sn. are "San".

Thanks. — kwami (talk) 14:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Do love, do friends

Marina and the Diamonds' song Oh No! starts with "Don't do love, don't do friends...". I fail to understand: What exactly does the do mean in both cases? --KnightMove (talk) 13:08, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

It is telegram style for "I don't do love. I don't do friends" meaning something like "I don't maintain romantic relationships or friendships with other people." ---Sluzzelin talk 13:37, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "I don't do X" (the I is omitted but understood in the song) is an informal way of saying, roughly, "X is not a thing I involve myself with" or "X is something I avoid". For instance, a teetotaler might say "I don't do alcohol", or a person declining an invitation to a black-tie affair might say "I don't do formal wear". Deor (talk) 13:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Here are William Safire's thoughts on the phrase "don't do X" ("I Don’t Do ‘Do’" ---Sluzzelin talk 13:47, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Back in the 1950s or 1960s there were several jokes about a maid who tells her employer "I don't do windows" (i.e. refuses to clean windows as part of her cleaning duties), and "I don't do windows" was kind of a minor popular catchphrase.... AnonMoos (talk) 15:05, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, Safire mentions it in the article I linked: "It struck me that this latest fad use of do was rooted in the stern warning of the prospective maid (later domestic servant, later domestic worker, now cleaning lady): I don’t do windows. I ran this speculation past Ben Zimmer of visualthesaurus.com, who replied: I think your hunch is correct about the provenance of the ‘I don’t do X’ phrasal template. There must have been a major influence from the stereotypical maid’s stipulation, ‘I don’t do windows,’ which attained catchphrase status by the mid-1970s as a staple of sitcoms and cartoons." ---Sluzzelin talk 15:13, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I haven't heard the song, but I would interpret "I don't do friends" to mean "I don't have sex with friends", using a different definition of do. Angr (talk) 21:30, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

There are already questions about François Hollande

• 1. Given that the surname is Hollande and not just Holland, shouldn't the "d" be sounded? I've yet to hear it from anglophone media persons.

• 2. Do the French separate the two parts of his name with a glottal stop (/franswa/ /olan(d)/)? I thought they weren't too cracked on glottal stops. I assumed from the spelling that it would have taken an epenthetic z, which would make it sound like /franswahzolan(d)/ (a second cousin of Franz Swaziland).

(Forgive my rough approximations of French sounds; they're not central to my question.) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 21:26, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

(1) Yes, the /d/ is pronounced. The failure of anglophones to pronounce it is probably attributable to hyperforeignism. (2) No, the /z/ is not pronounced; that would be the female name Françoise Hollande. There's no liaison between first names and last names AFAIK. Neither is there a glottal stop; there's simply vowel hiatus: . Angr (talk) 21:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

In the UK,Auntie Beeb is usually hot on this sort of thing. They seem to have settled on "Fron-swar 'Ollond", as can be heard in this video (may or may not be available in the colonies). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

It came through loud and clear here in Australia (no idea about the colonies, though). That answers my questions nicely, thanks to Angr and Cucumber Mike. (In my perverse way, I might still prefer to call him "Monsieur Swaziland".) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 22:14, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I should also point out that even if there were liaison between first names and last names, Hollande and its derivatives (like hollandaise) start with an h aspiré, so they behave as if they were consonant-initial anyway, never taking liaison. Angr (talk) 22:37, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Angr. That settles an unasked question I still had in my head about the rules. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 00:02, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

ABC Evening News here in the US last night didn't even try to pronounce it like the French and just called him "Holland". 69.62.243.48 (talk) 22:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Japanese stroke order

Why do the strokes have to be written in a specific order? Isn't the end result the same no matter what order you make the strokes in? --108.206.4.199 (talk) 22:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

When writing every stroke carefully the result is the same, but there are several handwriting styles where the strokes are not written individually . If the stroke order is incorrect, the result will have the wrong shape and be unrecognisable. See for instance grass script. --ColinFine (talk) 22:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

You can kind of see this in everyday Latin writing as well. For example, I start my B (printed, not cursive) at the top, pull down and back up for the side, and then do the curves, which in fast writing ends up looking a lot like eszett (ß) with an extra-thick line. However, if I started at the bottom curve, it might look more like lower-case beta (β), and starting at the top curve it would look like a 3 with an upwards hook on the bottom. Now, in English this doesn't matter, but with a script that has a much greater number of letters, where many are quite similar, you're more constrained as to the possible shapes a given glyph can take and still be recognized: if English used B ß β, I might rely entirely on stroke order to account for the differences. Lsfreak (talk) 03:37, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

We should also mention that Eastern philosophy holds that the process of creation is as important as the creation itself (sometimes even more important). For example, sand paintings aren't made to last, it's the process of creating that's the important thing. So, somebody once declared that there is a certain proper order to the strokes, then that became a tradition. StuRat (talk) 04:41, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

My father taught music in Japan for a few years in the early fifties and shocked his students by writing a treble clef on the blackboard in one stroke, starting from the bottom, instead of in two top-to-bottom strokes. Apparently the Japanese insistence on correct stroke order doesn't apply only to Japanese characters. Angr (talk) 06:32, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

OP, did you see our article stroke order, Japanese calligraphy, and Chinese calligraphy? Stroke order is important and you should know it when you write ja/zh with a brush, especially when you write cursive script (East Asia). Stroke order is thought as the most efficient way of writing characters beautifully developed over thousands of years, interestingly, stroke order is different by country though. Angr, I write a treble clef in one stroke, but not from the bottom. I start from the end in the middle near the G4, go to the top, then to the bottom. Oda Mari (talk) 07:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Exactly how I've always done it (because I was taught that way). -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 07:38, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. I myself am of the two-stroke treble clef persuasion, because I can never get the top loop just right otherwise. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 07:45, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I write it in two strokes if I'm being careful, and in one stroke from the bottom (like my father) if I'm being sloppy. Oda Mari and Jack's way, starting with the loop around the G4, strikes me as willfully perverse. Angr (talk) 20:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Huh? I just said it was the way I was taught to do it. i.e. 100% compliant with that teaching. This is exactly 180 degrees away from "wilfully perverse". Anyway, it's a single (curved) line, so anyone who writes it using more than one continuous stroke has some explaining to do. Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 22:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Willfully perverse? But that's the most common way in Japan and it is taught in school. See , , , and . Oda Mari (talk) 10:14, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say it was the two of you being willfully perverse. Whoever thought up writing it that way and then decided it should be taught that way in schools was the one being perverse. (Anyway, I'm just teasing!) I notice the last link Oda Mari provides also indicates that quarter rests should be written from the bottom up, which is the exact opposite of how I've always written them. Angr (talk) 17:28, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Angr, I still don't get why you use more than one stroke to write a treble clef (see right). That would create a discontinuity in a curve that doesn't have one. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 20:12, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I write it in one continuous stroke, starting from the middle of the spiral bit and ending at the bottom. 86.160.209.216 (talk) 02:23, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Back when I was grading introductory linguistic homework, some students seemed to insist on writing the phonetic symbol as separately written "a" and "e" letters jammed together (which always looked unclear and ugly), despite having seen the instructor write "æ" with a single looping stroke (starting at top left and ending at bottom right) on the blackboard... AnonMoos (talk) 11:21, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I've seen that too, and the problem with it is that most people's handwritten a is of the "one-story" variety (ɑ), and if you mash that kind of ɑ up against an e, it's too difficult to distinguish æ from œ. Perhaps not a big problem in introductory linguistics where only English phonemes are being taught, but it's good to nip that sort of thing in the bud before the students go on to study proper phonetics where they have to learn the symbols for other languages' sounds as well. Angr (talk) 20:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who writes æ like that should be strangled (with a ligature, of course). StuRat (talk) 23:07, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

May 8

Pronunciation: where is the stress of "as if"? on "as" or on "if"?

84.228.154.231 (talk) 13:53, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Often, nowhere; i.e. the whole phrase is unstressed. But if anything is stressed it will be "if". The only case I can think of where "as" might be stressed is if "as" is being contrasted with something else, but I can't think what else that might be. --ColinFine (talk) 17:54, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Generally unaccented; but strongly accented on "if" in the stand-alone slang expression "As if!" conveying disbelief or scorn. -- Elphion (talk) 17:58, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

french gender suffix

The infobox for fr:François Hollande gives his nationality as "Française". Should it not say "Français" since he is male? Or do I misunderstand how those suffixes are supposed to work? Does the suffix possibly refer to the country of France itself (in the feminine) rather than to the person possessing the nationality? Thanks. 64.160.39.217 (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

The reason the feminine is used is because 'Nationalité' is feminine. Française is an adjective modifying 'nationalité': la nationalité Française. - Lindert (talk) 22:02, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

It's modifying "nationalité", which is feminine. -- Elphion (talk) 22:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

drat, a photo finish! -- Elphion (talk) 22:08, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

but in a phrase as above, that would be la nationalité française with lower case 'f'. -- Elphion (talk) 22:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes sense. 64.160.39.217 (talk) 22:09, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Why is it modifying "nationality"? It's Hollande himself who's being described, not the word "nationality". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:30, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Because the category is nationality; it's an issue of grammar, not of meaning. The infobox entry for nationality basically asks the question 'What nationality does Hollande have?' The answer to the question is 'French', and that is short for saying Hollande has the 'French nationality'. If the masculine is used, it would be an answer to the question 'What is Hollande?' and the answer would be 'a Frenchman', which would be 'un Français', i.e. the masculine form. - Lindert (talk) 23:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Because the implied sentence is "His nationality is French", not "He is French". 67.164.156.42 (talk) 23:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I think that in this case it is Hollande's nationality which is being described, not Hollande. The other categories are mostly nouns, which seem to be a continuation of the category name (i.e. Parti politique: Parti socialiste), rather than a description of Holland ("membre du Parti Socialiste"). This must modify the category name (Political Party), because if it modified "François Hollande", it would be saying that he is the Socialist Party. Nevertheless, this just a guess; I've never had a rule concerning this formally explained to me. In any case, I'm not a native French speaker, so I would probably never have even picked up on it. Falconus 23:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Just to try explaining it another way for Bugs: If we say "He is French", we would say "Il est français" in French, because the adjective French modifies the masculine pronoun "he". If we say "His nationality is French", that's "Sa nationalité est française". Both the word "sa" and "française" are feminine because the word they modify "nationalité" is feminine. This is how French is different than English, in that French follows strict grammatical gender, while English follows personal gender. French does not have direct translations for "his/her"; instead the "sa/son" pair is modified NOT by the antecedant, but by the object. Thus always "son panatalon" but always "sa chemise", regardless of whether they are his shirt and pants, or her shirt and pants, and the adjectives follow the same rules. Its the grammatical gender of the words being modified that matters, not the personal gender of the person in question. --Jayron32 11:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Albeit

What is the correct (insofar as there is such a thing) way to use this word? Can it always be used as a substitute for "even though" or "(al)though"? For example, could you say "Albeit I wanted the puppy, I did not adopt it."? It sounds funny to me used any way other than when "albeit" could be replaced with "although it be". 67.164.156.42 (talk) 22:55, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

That does seem like an odd usage, how about "I wanted the puppy, albeit not as a pet. I was hungry." :-) StuRat (talk) 23:01, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

According to EO, "albeit" is a centuries-old contraction of "although it be ." That was one of those semi-obscure words that William Buckley liked to toss out now and then. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Googling "albeit" should produce many examples. One is this prissy "fight song" that Tom Lehrer wrote: "Fight fiercely, Harvard / Fight, fight, fight / Demonstrate to them our skill / Albeit they possess the might / Nonetheless we have the will! ..." One editor somewhere commented on Lehrer's "controversial—albeit hilarious—topical lyrics." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:10, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Albeit macht flei. —Tamfang (talk) 03:06, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Victoira and Albeit. —Tamfang (talk) 03:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

As I understand it, albeit, is a contraction of although it be (and you can see the words in there: al-be-it), and it should be followed by something that could follow the verb be, such as an adjective or a noun. It cannot simply be used as a synonym for 'even though' or 'although' (it can be used as such in some contexts, albeit not in all). That's why your example of the puppy doesn't work, since albeit' is followed by a sentence.

In my 'ears', the word 'albeit' creates, in a sense, a lesser contradiction between the two clauses of a sentence than does 'although'. While 'although' sort of 'destroys' whatever the other clause says, 'albeit' agrees, but then goes on to argue why it's unfeasible. 'The puppy was cute, albeit very expensive.' could be rewritten in full form as 'The puppy was cute, although it was very expensive.' Here you clearly see how 'albeit' seemingly incorporates all three: 'although' and a subject and a verb. To use 'albeit' correctly, you should be able to replace it with 'although+it (or another pronoun)+'. V85 (talk) 09:02, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I see your point. However, I think that there can also be an implied "(the case) that" - hence constructions like the one in Lehrer's song. Nonetheless, the connotations are not exactly the same as 'although'. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:46, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

May 9

West African surname

Hi all - I can't help but notice, when listening to world news or sport, just how common the West African surname Cisse seems to be. I see for the dab page here that it's Mandinko in origin, but I was wondering if anyone here had any idea as to its meaning... is it perhaps a "trade surname", similar to Smith, Cooper, or Hunter in English, or perhaps a toponym-related name like the English surname Hill? Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha? 02:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Oral tradition describes it as an old royal clan name, dating back to the dawn of the Ghana Empire. I don't think the etymology is clear at all, though there are explanations in oral tradition. One site I found states "that the name “Cisse” is an honorific patronymic name attributed to the founder of the dynasty Wagadou for bringing the horse in West Africa , and indeed, the very name “sy” means in sarakhole tongue (language of the Soninke), “white horse”." . The mentioned founder of the kingdom, "Djabe Makan (Diaba) Cissé", is spelled Majan Dyabe Cisse in en.wikipedia's articles (e.g. the ones on Ghana Empire or History of the Soninke people. Then again, his father's name was already "Cissé" too, in oral tradition, so ...). ---Sluzzelin talk 04:55, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

(update) Similarly, the French Misplaced Pages article on Soninke people (fr:Soninkés) has: "Cissé (and its variants Cise, Sise or Siise) occupies a special place as it was the patronym of the first six Soninke clans descending from the six sons of Dingka. "Ci" means "horse", "cisé" would mean "rider"/"horseman." ---Sluzzelin talk 09:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I suppose if there was an English language equivalent, "Knight" would be about as close as you could get then, both in terms of the horserider connotation and the status. Grutness...wha? 23:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

なる (Japanese)

Hi,

a) In a particular context, うれしくてならなかったよ is translated as "That made me so glad".

b) As I understand it, 学校に行かなくてはならない conveys the idea "must go to school".

Both involve the use of the negative form of the verb なる. I realise that both usages may be idiomatic to some extent, but I would like to understand, in each case, the literal meaning of なる, and how the overall meaning derives from that literal meaning. Along the way, I would also like to understand what connection, if any, exists between these two meanings of なる. 86.160.82.205 (talk) 19:45, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

May 10

How do you label an amount of nothing, such as 0 bee(s). Would I be correct in treating nothing like a plural?(English language)

Lets say having nothing of something but you want to state this is so. If you have 0 somethings, would you say 0 something or 0 somethings (or something else, like "no somethings")? 96.244.253.105 (talk) 11:28, 10 May 2012 (UTC)editor0000001

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