Talk:British Pakistanis - Misplaced Pages

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British Pakistanis was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

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Date	Process	Result
June 17, 2010	Good article nominee	Not listed
November 20, 2010	Peer review	Reviewed
January 28, 2011	Good article nominee	Listed
March 9, 2011	Good article reassessment	Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

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To-do list for British Pakistanis: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2015-08-05

Clean up the References section. It currently uses bare URL's, so a {{Cite web}} template (or other if you prefer) will have to be added to each citation. Done
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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Lords

"Cameron also appointed Lord Ahmed, a Kashmiri born politician, a life peerage, which made Ahmed the first Pakistani peer in the UK."

Totally false. It was Lord Ahmad of Rotheram appointed by Labour years ago who was first Pakistani peer. Recently (2010) Cameron has appointment Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon who is a different person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.195.12 (talk) 00:02, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Your claims would need a source. Sansonic (talk) 19:18, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The IP appears to be correct. According to this source, Nazir Ahmad was born in Pakistan and made a peer in 1998. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Kashmiris

"Many Kashmiris have named their businesses after the Pakistani region. One of the largest companies incorporating such a name is Kashmir Crown Bakeries, which is a food making business in Bradford. The company is a major local employer and is the largest Asian food manufacturer in Europe. The owner, Mohammed Saleem, claims that combining traditional Kashmiri baking methods with vocational British training has given his baking business a multi-million pound turnover."

This paragraph strikes me as being little more than a thinly disguised advertisement for Mr Saleem and his bakery. As such I would suggest it has no place in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jps 1001 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Typo in 4.1 Kashmiris

Assuming in paragraph two, "was dominated by rigid hierarchies. Economis boom brought dramatic" the word "Economis" should be altered to "Economic". NoelyNoel (talk) 22:54, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Done, thank you for pointing this out--Jac16888 23:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Blatant pov pushing child grooming

This incident involving a gang of british pakistanis does not deserve mention unless other incidences are mentioned about other communitys this is basically cherry picking of events and an obvious pov push Spacech45 (talk) 14:15, 9 May 2012 (UTC)This account has been blocked as a sockpuppet of Nangerbat Darkness Shines (talk) 16:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with this. I especially find the long quoting of one POV in the source article without reference to police opinions on the matter baffling. Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 14:32, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that these events did involve a lot of cherry picking.Ankh.Morpork 14:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

That's cute. However, the more I think about it the less I think this section belongs in a general article on a large population. Here it seems to be implying that pedophilia is somehow something to do with their ethnic background, which is a pretty strong claim to make in a supposedly NPOV article. Notice that the Belgium page does not feature a subsection on the innate pedophilia of Belgians, to name one example. The incident already has its own wiki entry, and that should be enough. I say we take this section out. Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 14:56, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I know where this is coming from its got nothing to do with concerns for crimes or whatever its basically a few pov pushers with a dislike of certain people in reality there have been gangs of rapists from Romania, Africa and other places but there is no mention blatant pov 86.178.30.102 (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)Nangparbat sock Ankh.Morpork 20:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

this sort of information belongs to pages like Human trafficking in the United Kingdom or Slavery in Britain and Ireland. however, user ankhmorpork is hellbent on adding this content not only to this page but others as well (check out his edit history), and thus reveals his agenda. there are several pages about racial groups on wikipedia and none of them contain such content. for example, millions of such crimes are comitted in the usa every year but not one of them are mentioned here . this is blatant pov-pushing, and should be deleted.-- altetendekrabbe 15:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

These crimes have been commented on by several sources as directly affecting the British Pakistani community. Comment on content, not the editor per WP:NPAAnkh.Morpork 15:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Here I agree with AnkhMorpork, let's keep this civil. But I still don't see why this section belongs on this page. It creates the false impression that single instances of crime somehow reflect upon the larger group, a logic which only seems to apply in the case of this specific group of immigrants. This goes against the NPOV policy of Misplaced Pages. We're not talking about removing all references to the child grooming issue, as it already has its own entry. Even if you can find sources that say that this reflects badly upon Pakistanis in Britain (which is probably true), that doesn't make this a general controversy regarding the continued existence of Pakistani immigrants in Britain, and that is why this section should be removed. Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 17:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

The insertion does not refer to "single instances of crime". The impact of these events and their effect on the Pakistani community has been commented upon by sources, including a BBC documentary that investigated the grooming of young girls for sex by Pakistani men in the UK.Ankh.Morpork 17:05, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Ankh on this, there was a massive backlash in the UK after this case. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

If that is the case, then the paragraph should be rephrased to reflect the backlash, as that is what is pertinent to the main article. Also, I see that on the wiki page for the Rochdale sex trafficking gang, the "concerns" section has been marked with a weasel tag. I don't think this paragraph should be restored until it is rewritten to reflect how this case has caused a massive backlash, and sourced correctly.Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 17:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

It is not just that though is it? "in the recent scandal regarding two Asian men found guilty of grooming young girls for sex, and then abusing them. The local MP, Jack Straw, said that it was “a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men”" Thought Paralysis: The Virtues of Discrimination "Agencies have identified a long term pattern of offending by gangs of men, predominately from the British Pakistani community, who have befriended and abused hundreds of vulnerable girls aged 11 to 16" The Terrorist Next Door Darkness Shines (talk) 18:11, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't think these last changes cut it. The source of the first claim, Erick Stakelbeck, cannot be called neutral by any definition of the word. He is a known anti-Muslim agitator with no formal training in cases of terrorism and Muslim immigration (I believe he used to be a sports reporter) and also subscribes to bizarre views such as fearing that Muslims will attack the U.S. with electro-magnetic pulse weapons. He has also said he thinks George Bush jr. was a coward because he did not declare war on Islam after 9/11. The second source not only contradicts its own title later in the article (most UK child abusers are in fact whites, even if Asians are overrepresented), but the Times article that is referenced is not a news article but an opinion piece. It even states unequivocally "Of course, most British Pakistanis are not in a CSE network." So why does this issue deserve its own subsection on this page? I still think it should be left out completely until someone comes up with a well-sourced argument for why some sex offenders should be connected to the larger population of British Pakistanis (and I suspect that this is the reason we don't see similar entries on the main pages for Belgium or Austria) Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 20:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

::::: Then with your logic every page should mention the crimes of certain people like say american jews? British africans? etc its totally pov to single out one community while ignoring others maybe an article on europeans travelling to thailand for "holidays" with kids and mention what part of europe they come from ? Spacech45 (talk) 15:28, 9 May 2012 (UTC)This account has been blocked as a sockpuppet of Nangerbat Darkness Shines (talk) 16:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Could someone explain to me why relevant and sourced information is removed from the article?--Shrike (talk) 17:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

no consensus. take it to the npov-noticeboard and you'll see what happens.-- altetendekrabbe 17:42, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Who don't agree except of you?And why do you object there are plenty WP:RS that make the connection--Shrike (talk) 17:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

i disagree. that is sufficient. let's take this to dispute resolution.-- altetendekrabbe 17:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No its not, majority of users agree, you may take it of course to any relevant board if you wish of course--Shrike (talk) 18:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

i am taking this to dispute resolution.-- altetendekrabbe 18:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

What are you thinking? A few news articles on a recent group of crimes are nowhere near sufficient for attributing substantial criminal behaviour to a group of approximately 1.2 million people with a history of four centuries. Remember WP:RECENT — we write to reflect what the majority of sources study throughout time, not to give the latest tidbits of information. Wait until books (from strong publishers, not something like "Karnac Books") or other academic work is published on this subject, and only reintroduce it if those publications attribute a close connection between the crimes and the British Pakistani community as a whole. Nyttend (talk) 13:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

i totally agree with you, nyttend. this highly contentious content was forced into the article by user ankmorpork and user shrike by an edit war. i have started a discussion at the dispute resolution noticeboard here, .-- altetendekrabbe 13:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

This is POV-pushing bigotry, end of story. Shit like this doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages, and the sooner we get rid of the sort of individuals who think it does, the better. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

user ankmorpork should be banned as he is quite disruptive. what is the right venue to address his behavior?-- altetendekrabbe 15:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Why don't you concentrate on the disputed content rather than hectoring the editor with whom you are in dispute? On the bare facts he has been no more disruptive than you have been. Leaky Caldron 16:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Do not call me a bigot andy, statistically Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK, as is reflected in the reliable sources. Which doe snot make adding it to this article bigotry but DUE. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

"Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK, as is reflected in the reliable sources". Please cite a source that states this. I've not seen any. And BTW, those involved in the Rochdale case weren't 'Pakistanis', they were British citizens on Pakistani descent (apart from the one who was an Afghan refugee). AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Try 'Most UK girl child abusers are British Pakistanis' or this.Ankh.Morpork 18:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Now find a reliable source that states that "Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK", rather than one that makes a claim in the headline which it fails to support in the story. And are you really trying to present that source as neutral? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

as noted by user:benjamil, this all boils down to badges of shame. to quote benjamil who sarcastically wrote:

"Couldn't we add similar badges of shame on many articles on national/ethnic groups? Austrians, it seems, have a unique proclivity for private incarcerations with pedophilic/incestuous motives. Belgians are known for pedophilia and Norwegians are mass consumers of sex workers abroad, to the point that the goverment needs to regulate it"

another user noted above: "belgium page does not feature a subsection on the innate pedophilia of belgians". many europeans are involved in the disgusting thai sex trade but there is no subsection about this on the europeans-page either. user:Iloveandrea noted:"Can you imagine the reaction if someone posted something about Jews having a propensity to paedophilia, citing some right-wing Saudi website?" and what if black americans "carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks" in the us? are you going to add a subsection about that too? i don't think so. you are now maligning a whole a racial group. shame on you. -- altetendekrabbe 18:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

British Austrian bugger, your argument just failed. The fact remains, a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK are carried out by British Pakistanis, apologies to Andy for my missing that earlier Darkness Shines (talk) 22:27, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The 'fact remains' that you have yet to provide a source for that assertion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

For fucks sake Andy, you can only look the other way so often. Always problem with the left, everyone is a "bigot" BBC Independent Guardian Darkness Shines (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The Independant article says nothing about 'British Pakistanis' whatsoever. The BBC source (from 2004) says nothing about 'British Pakistanis' in general, or about disproportionate levels of anything. The third source you cite states "Thus no official data exists on the ethnic or religious background of perpetrators of this form of child abuse, and local charities have stated publicly that they do not consider it a race issue. But it is worth noting that, when asked by the Times to collate its recent work according to ethnicity, Engage – based in Blackburn and one of the largest multi-agency organisations working on this issue – found that in the past year that 80% of offenders were white." You are a liar, and a bigot, and unfit to contribute to Misplaced Pages. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Andy - Sources were provided; claims of 'bias' do not invalidate sources. How about this one: "The string of convictions in cities such as Rotherham, Preston, Blackburn, Rochdale and now Derby have more often than not involved Asian men, specifically men of Pakistani origin, and mainly Muslim."Ankh.Morpork 22:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Fuck off and push your bigotry somewhere else. We don't need you here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Fuck you and the white horse you rode in on, call me a bigot once more and I will expect satisfaction you wanker. 23:02, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

"expect satisfaction"? Are you out of your mind? What century do you think this is? Actually, I think your bigotry gives us a clue.... AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Your response is in fact what I expected, another keyboard coward who feels it is just fine to label anyone they disagree with. You sir are a prick, and a coward. Should you in facf manage to grow a pair feel free to email me. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:12, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

LOL! Why would I want to e-mail you? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:16, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Andy - Can you please at least comment on the sources, say something informative such as "you are a bigot because..." and "you lied because the sources in fact state..."Ankh.Morpork 23:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Another source to contemplate, this time, The Times. "child protection experts have identified a repeated pattern of sex offending...most of the convicted offenders are of Pakistani heritage...The Times has seen a briefing document by researchers at the UCL Jill Dando Institute of Security and Crime Science, which notes that victims are typically white girls aged 13 to 16 and that “most central offenders are Pakistani”". And dare yourself to peek at this Telegraph article.Ankh.Morpork 23:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

How convenient that the Times article is behind a firewall. No chance to see how you've cherry-picked it like you've done with the Telegraph. The article is clearly referring to specific cases, rather than to any broader statistics - and it is only repeating the Times anyway, it isn't another source for anything. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:01, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, well. AnkhMorpork, would you like to provide the entire sentence for "most of the convicted offenders are of Pakistani heritage..."? Actually, you'd better, because, from what I've been able to find elsewhere, it seems to continue "..., unlike other known models of child-sex offending in Britain, including child abuse initiated by online grooming, in which the vast majority of perpetrators are white". This blatant misrepresentation of sources is sufficient grounds alone to call for a topic ban, if not an outright block. I suggest you start thinking about finding another forum for your hate-fuelled POV-pushing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:16, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

the guardian source actually states:

"Anecdotally, as far back as the mid-90s, local agencies have been aware of the participation of ethnic minority men in some cases of serial abuse. But what has *not* emerged is *any* consistent evidence to suggest that Pakistani Muslim men are uniquely and disproportionately involved in these crimes, nor that they are preying on white girls because they believe them to be legitimate sexual quarry, as is now being suggested."

thus, british-pakistani men are *not* disproportionately involved in these crimes. anyway, the issue is still about ankhmorpork adding badges of shame. the second source provided by user:ds claims that young black men are behind a high proportion of gang rapes...now, is ankhmorpork going to add a subsection about this on the page of Black Briton?-- altetendekrabbe 23:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit protection

As similar controversial material has been added and removed several times over the last week, in response to a request at WP:RFPP, I have fully protected this article for one week as an uninvolved administrator. The intention of full protection is for contributors and interested parties to reach a consensus on this talk page through open discussion of the issues, sources and appropriate weight for this article. If discussion here, or the more structured discussion at Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#British_Pakistanis does not establish a consensus, please consider the other options available as described at WP:Dispute resolution. --Fæ (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

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