Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 67.180.24.204 (talk) at 15:17, 31 July 2004 (discussion of deleted criticism). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

I'm not sure it's really proper to have a critisizm section that's longer than the original article. I may be wrong, but just wanted to say my thoughts.--ArcticFrog 13:42, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

So the neutrality of this page is disputed, but there are no comments here. Anyone care to chime in? Fuzheado 02:50, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Article lists some of the extreme statementsof a woman who often makes them

Ann Coulter frequently makes extreme statements in her writings and talk-show appearances.

This article appropriately reflects that by quoting some of her extreme statements.

It's not like she rarely makes extreme statements, and this article is un-reflective. Someone could easily add ten more extreme statements she's made in the past few years.

If someone wishes to add sentences to the article about the good things Ann Coulter has said or done, that is fine. It is better than just posting that the neutrality is disputed.

I agree, so I've removed the neutrality disputed note at the beginning, not because this is the perfect article, but I don't think it goes too far in characterizing her for what she is. After all, she calls herself a polemicist. But I'm willing to hear/see other additions to make this more "neutral". Fuzheado 13:03, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I'm not nessisarily a fan of Coulter's, but I have read a lot of her stuff. As mentioned, her whole "sthick" is being outlandish, controversial, and sensationalistic. She rarely discusses uncontroversial topics, and she's not exactly the type who has written lots of dry articles on why the free market system is superior to socialism or anything like that. Though a self-proclaimed conservative, her writings lack the didactic or historographical material that is often common with other conservative pundits and editorialists. In other words, I'm not sure what kinda stuff to add to make this more "neutral". user:J.J.

I put the NPOV disclaimer on... I'm definitely not a fan of Coulter, in fact, I think she's completely brain-dead, but the second half of this article, starting with Franken, is just attack after attack on her positions. Hardly serves to create a positive picture of the woman. Maybe nothing good can be said about her, but she -is- a best-selling author, and surely has some adulators? Graft 20:39, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Wow, this is a pretty harsh bio of Coulter. Not suprised, as Misplaced Pages is generally liberal. I will probably edit it in the future. ~ Anon.

Liberal? Misplaced Pages is an establishment mouthpiece. Look how fast the "we need to execute people like lindh" quote got vanished, as a for instance. The Three Mile Island link to Secret Fallout lasted all of four days. For more, see its attempt to defend fluoridation. Lookit the knots it gets into trying to make something important of the patent boogeyman Osama bin Laden. Look at how every bit of George Soros' hypocrisy is (validly) on the George Soros page, whereas all uncomfortable facts about Jarge Shrubya and Poppy are relegated to Bush family conspiracy theory, lumped in with less reputable claims (old technique, that) and irrelevancies like Perle's nickname is "Prince of Darkness". =p -- Kwantus 02:22, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)~

Changing literate sentences into oversimplified bullet points is not an improvement. As a self-admitted polemicist, her claims are likely to have holes, and it's not POV to set the record straight - as long as that's what's being done, and not making counterclaims with unchallenged holes of their own. Stan 06:42, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

• Ehh.. sorry. I thought I integrated all of the content from the paragraphs. Evil saltine 08:33, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

C'mon, isn't there at least one Coulter admirer here? This has become so anti-Coulter that random conservatives visiting WP will probably dismiss the whole encyclopedia as a commie hippie liberal plot... :-) I daren't get a copy of the books myself, my wife might catch me... :-) Stan 02:18, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well, I won't hold my breath. Her books are absolutely dreadful, shrill, overwrought rants against liberals. I can't imagine how one would defend her in a sane, rational way. In other words, I agree with user:J.J. above. Well, perhaps someone will materialize out of the woodwork some day... -- Viajero 04:47, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This woman is just an US Carl Schmitt

Rabauz 12:16, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Ann Coulter may be a polemecist, but that doesn't mean the wikipedia page should be devoted to criticism of her. Al Franken is a polemecist too, but his page does not look like this. Someone did come out of the woodwork to fix the page (me) but my changes were reverted within by others within minutes.

Let's get rid of the silly "Criticism of Ann Coulter" stuff and have a plain old encyclopedia entry about her. Why is that so scary/difficult?

--141.156.238.162 14:47, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Deleting valid material is not "fixing the page". The correct policy for a person like this is to add an additional section of "Support for Ann Coulter" or some such, just as we have for politicians and the like. If you're the person who knows about the supporting material for her arguments, then please add the section; I watch this page and will defend against anybody who tries to delete material that supports her claims (but see Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view for how to write this). My assumption is that readers that come here to find out "who is this Ann Coulter person we keep hearing about", and it does them a disservice to say only "Ann Coulter is a controversial writer" - they want to know what the controversies are, what other have to say, and finally, we want them to link from here into the rest of the encyclopedia - we have huge amounts of uncontested background material explaining why there are controversies to begin with. So prove Viajero wrong and add material showing the support for Coulter's POV! Stan 16:18, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Deleting some material can indeed be "fixing the page". There is no reason that a _majority_ of text on a page should be devoted to criticisms. Note that there are two entire sections devoted to criticism in the Ann Coulter page: "controversy", and "criticism". Readers who come here want plain facts, which in the case of the Ann Coulter article are drowning in a soup of agenda. I will certainly _not_ go make the matter worse by adding yet more agendizing from a different point of view.

To state it another way, the amount of criticism here might be proportionate to a 20-page document about Ann Coulter's life and career. The page is patently biased because it delves so deeply into arguable "criticism" and "controversies" while being light on facts.

The Neutral Point of View document says

  A lot of articles end up as partisan commentary even while presenting
  both points of view; this is wrong. Even when a topic is presented in 
  terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an 
  implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or 
  more subtly their organization ...

This page is a great example of that.

I again commend the Al Franken article for comparison. Al Franken is a polemicist and provacateur on the left, exactly comparable to Ann Coulter on the right. His wikipedia page is good!

Maybe people should consider moving all such "criticism of x" to a separate wikipedia page.

Nice talking with you, friend. I appreciated your answer above.

--141.156.238.162 17:19, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You make a good point about redundancy. The Criticisms section does contain some balancing statements, but it's kind of a mixed bag. What I would do is to rearrange both Controversy and Criticism sections, move a bit into more of a career chronology (because some of the statements have a different import depending on when they were made), and have another section listing specific areas ("views on liberals", "views on religion", etc). She doesn't entirely fit the traditional conservative POV, so a per-topic section is a handy way to identify points of distinction. Stan 20:49, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ann Coulter is a flawed Conservative fanatic that deserves to have a criticism section that is longer than the other sections. She throws around charges without evidence, blames everyone by association, and slanders people. Perhaps she should think about her actions before commenting.

On the other hand, it also shows that she is a person that lacks in substance, as empty vases makes the most noises.

I object to this snide comment about Ann's faith

There is no reason for this text, as phrased, to be included:

"Coulter has been identified as a fundamentalist Christian, but told interviewer David Bowman, "I don't think I've described myself that way, but only because I'm from Connecticut. We just won't call ourselves that." She does not usually argue from a religious point of view, but she says she admires Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson"...

"Identified....?" It sounds like a police line-up... Rex071404 15:31, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Coulter 'rape the earth' quote

'Rape' quote should stay out. The Internet sources which I found are all 2nd hand (hearsay) and do not cite a 1st hand source such as a bona-fide transcript which can be read on line.

Also, that particular quote is gratuitously inflammatory. There is no need to intentionally quote something that serves only to the fan flames of religious and sexual indentitiy politics the way including that quote does.

Additonally, the overall tone of the Ann_Coulter is already so harsh against her that including this is mere piling on and adds a stink of too much POV tone overall.

For example, there are some who suggest (and claim to be able to document) that Hitler was among other things, an astrological reading, vegetarian, self-loathing bi-sexual. And yet, regardless of those points, there is enoguh in the public record about him to paint an accurate and rightly adverse picture with out talking up those points.

The Colter 'rape' "quote" I want stricken is along those same lines, It's inclusion serves no purpose other than to stir up gratuitious acrimony.

Rex071404 20:13, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rex, are you suggesting we censor Ms. Coulter? She has every right to her point of view that God wishes us to rape the earth. Just because you are uncomfortable with her views does not mean that the Wiki should suppress them. The Wiki's job is to report on what is, not what you would prefer to be. I also fail to see why you feel that her advocacy of earth-rape would provoke animosity anyway. 67.180.24.204 00:07, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Find a primary source to cite if you like the quote so much. Sam 00:11, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough Sam, here is a column by Ms Coulter with the quote: "God said so: Go forth, be fruitful, multiply, and rape the planet -- it's yours. That's our job: drilling, mining and stripping". Having properly sourced it, and thus satisfied Rex's objection I will put it back in the Wiki.67.180.24.204 01:30, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Now that you have sourced the quote correctly and I was able to put the entire quote in, not just the excerpt you previously had, it's obvious that this quote is satire. Therefore, since several others on that page are also, I created (2) headings under "Quotes" of "Commentary" and Satire". Please help me bold face those headings. I don't know how to yet. Rex071404 08:33, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I am trying to add some balance to Ann Coulter

Let's all make the effort to avoid being adversarial. And on the quotes which are obvious satire, please keep them in the satire section as I have put them. There are "Commentary" quotes and "Satire" quotes. Someone please help me bold type the headings, ok? Rex071404 08:30, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

User Bearcat deleted some text which I added to balance an imbalanced statement. That paragraph does not consist of a quotation alone. It's is also commentary, and I added balancing, truthful text. Bearcat, why did you remove it?

Rex071404 09:28, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The quote I removed was not "balancing" -- it was a statement of opinion, unattributed and disguised as fact. If you want to find a quote from an attributable source making that assertion, fine. It is, however, very POV as an unattributed body text statement. Bearcat 09:30, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Per your comment on my talk page, I have removed this sentence: Coulter often attacks rich Democrats, such as John Kerry for being hypocrites who are totally out of touch with the working class they claim to represent. I have done this because you said about another opinion which you removed: "it was a statement of opinion, unattributed and disguised as fact". With the above text deleted, I feel that pargraph is acceptable now, as is. Rex071404 09:47, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree that some context for selected quotes is desirable. However, it is not obvious to me that all of the quotes Rex has listed under satire are best described as "satirical" (not suggesting they are all meant literally either). Rather than articially categorizing quotes as "satire" and not, why not have sort of a "warning label" above the quotes section. This sentence or two warns that various quotes may be intended for rhetorical purposes such as satire, to rattle or bait debating opponents, shock-value etc. As such, they may be examples of her flamboyant rhetorical style (which is why she's famous) rather than her literal beliefs. I believe the quotes are all sourced now, so interested readers, thus warned, can judge the intent of any particular quote for themselves.67.180.24.204 14:31, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Made the edit suggested above to give general rhetorical context to the quotes. Any objections?

Franken's deleted criticism

Rex deleted the following paragraph (arguing this is not a Franken vs Coulter article):

"Al Franken also claims that while a newspaper's editorials are its official position, Ann Coulter takes sentences anywhere in the New York Times to represent its official opinion. If a New York Times book-review asks people on both sides of an issue to give their opinion, Ann Coulter will represent any quote she finds offensive as the official position of the newspaper."

If the point is simply that Franken personally is critical of Coulter, I agree with Rex that this should be deleted. However, the overall section title is "Criticism of Coulter". Certainly, if it is true that Coulter intentionally misrepresents the views of others, that is a fundamentally important and valid criticism. The point that Franken is the messenger is then secondary. I think the paragraph should be restored. Thoughts?67.180.24.204 15:17, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)