Talk:Lyndon LaRouche - Misplaced Pages

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The Unanswered Questions

Does Krusty allege that Dennis King forged the two citations about LaRouche's comments on the Holocaust in 1978 and 1981, or does he not? If so, what is his evidence? We are all still waiting for the answer to this simple question.

It were difficult to discuss whether King forged anything, because he neither produces, nor quotes, any such document. As I have pointed out before, in a dozen or so answers to your posts, the "citations" in your article amount to the following: a statement from anonymous sources characterizing LaRouche's views at the time; an assertion by King that a press release exists, which King does not quote, but rather offers his own characterization; and a reference to an (also not quoted) article, which sounds like a distortion of an editorial I recall in the 1978 "Zionism is not Judaism" issue of the Campaigner. This is a full and complete answer to your questions. You may pretend it is not, if you like. You may also continue to insist that you are entitled to set the ground rules for this debate, which you are not. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:26, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

And now, Adam, I'd like to get your response to the recently posted Partial List of false and downright bizarre assertions in the present version, as well as the Significant Omissions from the current version. --Herschelkrustofsky 23:02, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Googling vs. Research

Adam and Andy continually attempt to rig the debate by insisting that any source they prefer, such as the thoroughly disreputable Dennis King, must be accepted as gospel, whereas any source associated with LaRouche is automatically excluded, in their world. They further insist that press coverage of LaRouche must be available on the internet, or else be barred from discussion. Then, press coverage that acknowledges LaRouche's influence, which in the English-speaking world usually consists of outbursts of rage from his opponents (see the Wall Street Journal article on LaRouche's expose of Leo Strauss, or the National Review's article on LaRouche's expose of the disinformation center in the Pentagon, called the Office of Special Plans) -- must also be discounted, in Adam and Andy's world. Foreign press coverage of LaRouche is often not on the web, or unseachable (unless you know how to spell LaRouche's name in Russian, Chinese or Arabic), and is therefore also ruled out. And ironically enough, Google's News Search regularly includes articles from the LaRouche-founded publication Executive Intelligence Review -- but the last place you would seek a truthful characterization of LaRouche's ideas, is from the horse's mouth. Adam and Andy show a marked preference for the opposite end of the horse. --Herschelkrustofsky 01:11, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Herschell, it's not unreasonable to ask for a second source to back something up. Unfortunately there are no second sources to back up any LaRouche claims. The Eurasian Land-Bridge, which you claim is different from the Asian Highway would presumably be one of the biggest megaprojects the world has seen. Why then do none of the governments involved mention it? Why does it not have a website? Why do the engineering firms involved with it make no reference to it? Why is there no mention of it say in the Economist or BBC News or any engineering journals? You claim it is known as the "New Silk Road" yet, according to BBC News, that is the nickname of the Asian Highway. You claim a case involving LaRouche is an important precedent with regards to the Voting Rights Act. If that's the case cite a law journal that discusses the importance. If these major world historical events and projects you associate with LaRouche truly involve him you should be able to find independent sources but you can't. Does that not tell you anything? But please, on the Eurasian Land Bridge. Give us one source not associated with LaRouche. Just one. AndyL

It is odd that you ask for confirmation from either the BBC news, which speaks for the British government, or the Economist, which speaks for the City (i.e., the London banking establishment.) If you read my article at Lyndon LaRouche/draft, you may recall this passage:

In May of 1996, LaRouche's wife Helga Zepp-LaRouche presented the Eurasian Land-Bridge proposal at a conference sponsored by the Government of the People's Republic of China, in a debate format with British member of the European Commission, Sir Leon Brittan, who opposed it. The proposal was subsequently adopted, and is presently under construction, by the PRC and neighboring nations.

Of course, you may ignore the link to Eurasian Land-Bridge, because you deleted the article. I also note that you are now asserting, in your re-write of the Asian Highway article, that the Asian Highway is also known as the Eurasian Land Bridge, which is untrue, and a rather obvious little propagandistic flourish on your part. My point, however, is this: why would you expect honest coverage, by the British establishment, of a project by which they are, shall we say, not amused? You should read the article at Geopolitics, which is a stub; I could expand it, but until we get some arbitration, you will automatically delete anything I write, outside of this talk page.

There is no "official website" for the Landbridge, because it is not administered by one private corporation (to the chagrin of the Brits), but rather as a cooperative effort by an assortment of soveriegn nations. Otherwise, there are plenty of articles from Xinhua and other press agencies that cite the role of LaRouche and his wife. However, you can't Google them, which is precisely the point of the post to which you are responding. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:51, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As an aside, the BBC does not "speak for" the British government. You might care to read up about the Hutton Report, just as an example. Martin 21:01, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Postscript: back in Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive3, Andy was insisting that any report from the Washington Post or kindred publication must be regarded as credible, since they have not been successfully sued for libel. If you make this argument, then you must extend that courtesy to all of the LaRouche-affiliated publications as well. They have never been sued for libel, despite the fact that their meager financial resources, and LaRouche's pariah status, would make them especially vulnerable to such suits. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:04, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The onus is on you to cite these "many" articles, I'm afraid. Oh, and why can't we view them, as we could any other article on Xinhua's website? Ambivalenthysteria 14:57, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sept 19, 2003 -- A lengthy article on Lyndon LaRouche by Ding Yifan was published in the influential Beijing-based Guangming Daily and the Xinhua News Agency.
April 3, 2003 -- Richard Dallyn interviewed Lyndon LaRouche on, ironically enough, BBC's Five Live show on Wednesday, April 2nd. It was aired on the international news show which played from 1 am to 5 am.
Jan 3, 2003 -- Dubai, UAE: Al-Bayan published an article by Lyndon LaRouche entitled "The Year To Come" together with an article by Hussein Askary on History as Tragedy in its New Year's political supplement. The online version of Askary's article is accompanied with a photo of a starving African family; the hard copy has the map of the Eurasian Land-Bridge.
Aug 15, 2002 -- Skopje, Macedonia: A new political magazine, called Manifest has been launched which carries an interview with Lyndon LaRouche as its cover story. Many of the articles cover LaRouche's strategic and economic analysis, as well as his program for a New Bretton Woods monetary system and the Eurasian Landbridge.
June 5, 2002 -- Ankara, Turkey: YARIN, the top political magazine in Turkey, interviewed Lyndon LaRouche in its June issue. The issue is so popular that it was sold out and rushed to a second printing. It was also picked up by the Turkish dailies, and posted on their websites.
May 7, 2002 -- Seoul, South Korea: Lyndon LaRouche interviewed by Chang Dae-Hwan in the Maeil Business News. The interview covered his program for the New Silk Road and Korea's role in this as the "Asian Hub" for Pacific transport and trade.
Apr 5, 2002 -- MKTV, the main Macedonian TV station ran a one hour interview with Lyndon LaRouche. The theme of the interview was 'A mass movement is gathering around LaRouche to rebuild the world.' The interview is scheduled to be rebroadcast on Apr 8th on MKTV and a second TV station, Citel TV.
Dec 28, 2001 -- The India Post, which circulates internationally, covered the LaRouche's recent trip to India. The article was short and very accurate, among other things covering the fact that LaRouche was in India to participate in a seminar: "Growing Global Crisis: The World Needs A New Monetary System."
Dec 28, 2001 -- Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia: The New Straits Times carried a prominent interview with Dr. Kassim Ahmad covering his long history in influencing Malaysian politics and culture. Dr. Ahmad referenced Lyndon LaRouche as one of the writers who has influenced his life and as an example of someone whom he would not judge without first carefully reading his biography and writings.

These are just a few highlights. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:39, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

And you've read these articles yourself, have you? Or have you only seen references to them in LaRouche publications?20:19, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is that you, Andy? Boy, you're insatiable. You ask for "one, just one" citation, I give you nine, and now you want to know whether I've read them all. The answer is yes, I have, when there are English language transcripts available. I have not seen the TV interviews. A complete list, with English transcripts, is available here. --Herschelkrustofsky 22:56, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have already stated my view on this. It is impossible to accept any statement by LaRouche or from any LaRouche source as true unless it is independently verified, given the proved record for dishonesty of both LaRouche and his followers (including Krusty). I agree that King has his deficiencies as a source, but I have yet to see any charge of dishonesty against him proved. Adam 03:35, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

For those of you just joining us

On June 20, 2004, User:Adam_Carr took it upon himself to delete the long-standing Misplaced Pages article on Lyndon LaRouche (which may be viewed here), and substitute a new one. I recognized the material in the new article as being entired drawn from one source, an obscure book by poison-pen-for-hire Dennis King entitled Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism. When I called him on it, Adam admitted that his article was drawn entirely from this source. King's book was sponsored by the neoconservative Smith-Richardson Foundation, and relies on the "straw man" technique of carefully avoiding any discussion of LaRouche's actual policies and ideas, while asserting that LaRouche uses a code language to secretly convey a message of anti-Semitism.

Adam has announced his intention to respond to any efforts to edit his article, by embarking on revert wars. He apparently has a history of this (see Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/archive4#Page_protection, and refers to this approach as his "robust tactics." The article was protected by Misplaced Pages administrators on June 21. When the article was unprotected on June 30, Adam reverted my edit (which I invite 3rd parties to inspect, at the relevant history page), without comment. I have written a third, alternative article on LaRouche, which is available at Lyndon LaRouche/draft. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:49, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Meanwhile, in the non-LaRouchie universe, this is what happened:

The first version of the article was pure LaRouche propaganda, full of blatant lies and total inventions (such as the Eurasian Land-Bridge, see above), so I rewrote it.
I used as my principal source King's book, which is the only LaRouche biography in existence. While it is not an academic biography, and has the deficiencies of a book written to prove a case (that LaRouche is a fascist), it is nevertheless adequate, and gives standard citations for most (though not all) of its attributions. I am not aware that the factual accuracy of King's citations have been challenged by any non-LaRouche writer. If King's book cannot be used to write a LaRouche biographical article, then so such article can be written, because there is no other account from a non-LaRouche source.
I also used various online sources (with due caution) and the Washington Post account of LaRouche's trial and conviction.
Who funded King to write the book is completely irrelevant. Most academic books are funded by someone.
Krusty did not "call me" on using King, and I did not "admit" it (these are standard LaRouche polemical distortions).
King does indeed "assert that LaRouche uses a code language to secretly convey a message of anti-Semitism," and I think he is correct, at least when talking about the 1970s, but my article gives due credit to what appears to be LaRouche's recent shift of position on matters Jewish.
I did not "announce my intention to respond to any efforts to edit my article by embarking on revert wars." I said I would revert attempts by Krusty to re-insert LaRouche propaganda in the article, as I have done and will continue to do. This was why I reverted Krusty's edit after the page was unprotected.
Readers of this controversy need to understand that Krusty is obviously a LaRouche activist of some seniority: he says himself he remembers things LaRouche said in 1978. Given the nature of the LaRouche cult, everything Krusty says and does here must be seen as LaRouche propaganda. It can no more be taken as true than what a neo-Nazi would say at Adolf Hitler or what User:Hanpuk says at Khmer Rouge. Krusty is not interested in writing an encyclopaedia article, he is interested in protecting the LaRouche cult's view of itself and particularly the fantasy biography that LaRouche has spent 30 years creating around himself.
It is of course true that I and others editing here are hostile to LaRouche. But there is no equivalence between that hostility to LaRouche and Krusty's support for LaRouche. I and others are trying to write an encyclopaedia article, as objectively as is humanly possible and using the available, admittedly inadequate, sources. Krusty is merely acting as a mouthpiece for the LaRouche cult.
Krusty complains that "Adam and Andy continually attempt to rig the debate by insisting that any source they prefer, such as the thoroughly disreputable Dennis King, must be accepted as gospel, whereas any source associated with LaRouche is automatically excluded, in their world." In a sense this is true, for reasons I have already stated. Material from LaRouche sources is always propaganda, and often untrue. Since truth cannot be separated from myth in LaRouche propaganda, it must all be excluded unless it can be verified from independent sources. The anti-LaRouche material is of varying quality, and must be assessed critically in the way any historian is trained to do, but if it is properly referenced it can be used unless shown from an independent (ie, non-LaRouche) source to be false. This may seem unfair on Krusty, but it is the price he pays for choosing to become an acolyte of a proved liar, slanderer and fabulist like LaRouche. Adam 01:05, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The "land-bridge"

I'm sure I could go to a lot of countries issue a few media releases and convince a few gullible reporters to interview me because I say I'm important but if the megaproject I'm talking about is real there should be some sort of documentation to prove its existence somewhere. AndyL 14:51, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

":* April 3, 2003 -- Richard Dallyn interviewed Lyndon LaRouche on, ironically enough, BBC's Five Live show on Wednesday, April 2nd. It was aired on the international news show which played from 1 am to 5 am."

Herschell, even the LaRouche account of this interview posted here makes NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of this land-bridge yet you post it here as "evidence" of an independent source for the land bridge. This does not bode well for the rest of your "evidence" or for your credibility. Why did you post it here? Were you just trying to bamboozle us into thinking there was more (or even anything) in the mainstream media about this land bridge than there actually was. I'm very disappointed in you Herschell, it seems you've tried to trick us here. AndyL 14:56, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

OK, let's see all of these articles come from this site and accompanying pages.

Sept 19, 2003 -- A lengthy article on Lyndon LaRouche by Ding Yifan was published in the influential Beijing-based Guangming Daily and the Xinhua News Agency.

The link to this article is incorrect so I can't check LaRouche's version of it.

April 3, 2003 -- Richard Dallyn interviewed Lyndon LaRouche on, ironically enough, BBC's Five Live show on Wednesday, April 2nd. It was aired on the international news show which played from 1 am to 5 am.

no mention of the land bridge (see earlier post above)

Jan 3, 2003 -- Dubai, UAE: Al-Bayan published an article by Lyndon LaRouche entitled "The Year To Come" together with an article by Hussein Askary on History as Tragedy in its New Year's political supplement. The online version of Askary's article is accompanied with a photo of a starving African family; the hard copy has the map of the Eurasian Land-Bridge.

Summary of article (full article not provided) states "The rest of the article describes the solution to this situation through the ideas of LaRouche and his dual war-avoidance strategy of the New Bretton Woods system and the Eurasian Land-Bridge." Again, the only evidence of the land bridge is LaRouche's say-so. No independent verfication.

Aug 15, 2002 -- Skopje, Macedonia: A new political magazine, called Manifest has been launched which carries an interview with Lyndon LaRouche as its cover story. Many of the articles cover LaRouche's strategic and economic analysis, as well as his program for a New Bretton Woods monetary system and the Eurasian Landbridge.

fleeting mention as follows as part of a question asked to LaRouche "if the "LaRouche recipe" -- the New Bretton Woods and the Land Bridge projects -- were to become US policy and were endorsed by a coalition of countries in the world, how fast and how directly could this change the situation for the positive. Can you explain how this mechanism would work?" LaRouche's reply doesn't mention the land bridge. I don't see why the mention of a land bridge proposal in an interviewer's question can be seen as evidence of anything.

June 5, 2002 -- Ankara, Turkey: YARIN, the top political magazine in Turkey, interviewed Lyndon LaRouche in its June issue. The issue is so popular that it was sold out and rushed to a second printing. It was also picked up by the Turkish dailies, and posted on their websites.

No mention of the land bridge

May 7, 2002 -- Seoul, South Korea: Lyndon LaRouche interviewed by Chang Dae-Hwan in the Maeil Business News. The interview covered his program for the New Silk Road and Korea's role in this as the "Asian Hub" for Pacific transport and trade.

No link provided

Apr 5, 2002 -- MKTV, the main Macedonian TV station ran a one hour interview with Lyndon LaRouche. The theme of the interview was 'A mass movement is gathering around LaRouche to rebuild the world.' The interview is scheduled to be rebroadcast on Apr 8th on MKTV and a second TV station, Citel TV.

No link provided

Dec 28, 2001 -- The India Post, which circulates internationally, covered the LaRouche's recent trip to India. The article was short and very accurate, among other things covering the fact that LaRouche was in India to participate in a seminar: "Growing Global Crisis: The World Needs A New Monetary System."

link is to transcript of speech rather than article - only "evidence" of Land Bridge is LaRouche referring to it

Dec 28, 2001 -- Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia: The New Straits Times carried a prominent interview with Dr. Kassim Ahmad covering his long history in influencing Malaysian politics and culture. Dr. Ahmad referenced Lyndon LaRouche as one of the writers who has influenced his life and as an example of someone whom he would not judge without first carefully reading his biography and writings.

No link provided

Great Herschell, it looked kind of impressive at first but further investigation shows you've provided us with bupkiss, nada, nothing.

Most of your sources make no mention of the landbridge, the ones who do do so provide no evidence other than LaRouche's say so. Again, can you give us some independent articles from say one of the governments involved or an engineering journal or something which talks about the land bridge as an actual thing and not a mere claim by LaRouche? Are there no engineering surveys of the project? No detailed studies? No references by government departments? AndyL 15:11, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Conspicuously missing . . .

Under the heading 'economic views, towards the end, it is interesting that corporatist economic connection was made regarding Franco and Salazar, but not Hitler and Mussolini. Why?!?! Mussolini pioneered this. And don't get me started about the Italian fascist MSI and LaRouche's MSI!

More about LaRouche's ideas There was a time that much of what was on this page had been written by myself and one other, prior to the first add ins by Krusty that Andy later threw out. Overall, the article that exists is pretty good. His declared Platonism as opposed to Strauss's Platonism is missing though. Krusty will probably agree that these things should be in here. However, the reason I think they should be in there is because I trust the readers to read through all this and see LaRouche for what he is: an ineffective small time swindler ala the music man. Krusty would not agree. However, Krusty is obviously a LaRouchie - he even tries to write in a style identical to the Steinbergs - a couple analogous historically to Ayn Rand's loyal favorite couple in her own ineffective small time cult-racket. Are things I'm saying right now POV? Damn straight - this is the chat area. Here we can speak truth the way we see it. . . Most notable was Krusty's complete and total ignorance of the Socialist Worker's Party, LaRouche's role in it, LaRouche being a Marxist for many years, and this ignorance is something I see across the whole terrain of LaRouchie's I've met, particularly here in the Los Angeles area where they attempt to recruit the unwitting at LACC and other locations.. The problem is that the LaRouche group IS a cult using any meaningfull or helpful definition of the word. His supporters ARE brainwashed, really anything they say is going to have many problems as it is regurgitated crap from their Duce. Students who are in college ARE TOLD to drop out of college AT college BY LaRouche people AT college. They are TOLD that friends outside the group should be kept at arms length if not forgotten completely. This must be included in the article. It is crucial! Let the readers decide for themselves if LaRouche is a demogic cultist neo-platonic 'new-school' fascist - once they are provided with all the facts. The LaRouchies will admit this if you ask them, though they will have their obvious rationalizations of it - but a fact's a fact - they will admit it. In my opinion, you have let Krusty control way too much of this content. LaRouchies almost invariably had no real history of political activism or education prior to becoming a LaRouchie. This is how the Potemkin Village they live in is effected. LaRouchies will blatantly lie or omit information that is suitable to their needs in one context, in one conversation, and in the very next conversation days or moments later, contradict it all. I know they have been trained in conversational and debate methods - methods which have no place in an honest discourse - methods which are aimed at bending reality around the argument - if you can call it an argument at all. One look at a LaRouche pamphlet reveals an endless stream of disconnected, disjointed, factually inaccurate mumbo-jumbo which preys upon the socially inept or psychologically prone (to join a cult, often the young) people. His anal-fecal fixation and fixation on 'filth' 'decadence' 'satanism' and 'zionist-masonic orders' and other conspiratorial cabals should send the alert bells ringing to any politically seasoned citizen. The very structure of the grammar - intentionally meant to be headache-y, the repeated use of esoteric terms at different times in different contexts, is meant to effect a series of mental images in the mind of the reader which render them most confused but yet forced to gape in awe and wonder at the word-smithing. Feeling that they don't understand what it is they are reading, they are compelled to ask the person who gave them the pamphlet what this or that means. This person has just allowed themselves to be schooled and the LaRouchie has the upper hand. Only the LaRouchie can properly understand what LaRouche is saying, so nothing you say about him can make any sense or be accurate unless you are yourself a LaRouchie. To those looking for a strong-man or leader, to those who are unconciously believers of the fuhrer principle, (that great men make history, often reinforced in our own hierarchical societie's culture),LaRouche can be appealing. LaRouche's self-proclaimations that he and he alone is the sole inheritor, walking in the image of christ on earth, solely capable of bettering the situation of life on earth and saving us all from a satanic cabal of corruption and homosexual drug induced filth - ths appeals only to a certain personality type, the very repressed, and for them his rantings will seem believable. While the field is somewhat limited, when you find the people who fit the mold, you must aggressively pursue them until they join. Similar debates rage at the Adolf Hitler page. Should the Hitlerians be able to keep off wikipedia pertinent information about Adolf Hitler or the war effort since 'making people sound bad' seems to have the effect of seeming 'POV'. Capone 7-9-04

Chaim, you did link the article to your goofy shit in the PCC paper. And how's your Dad?

Updated list of wild fabrications and propagandistic slurs in the present version

Version 3.0

Updated as of August 1 --Herschelkrustofsky 22:44, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"He now maintains that he was soon disillusioned with Marxism and stayed in the SWP only as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

"Once again, LaRouche now maintains that he was an FBI agent during all this activism."

"In the 1970s LaRouche developed an intense interest in fascism, and began to adopt some of its slogans and practices, while maintaining (as he still does) an outward stance of anti-fascism." LaRouche developed an intense interest in preventing fascism. What "slogans and practices" does Adam allege that he adopted?

"He began to regard himself and his followers as "Prometheans," superior to all other people" This is a fabrication. LaRouche counterposed the term "Promethean" to Friedrich Nietzsche's categories of "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" in the discussion of Aesthetics, arguing that Nietzsche's approach was wrong.

"...under his direction the NCLC adopted violent and disruptive tactics, physically attacking meetings of the SWP, the Communist Party and other groups, who were classed by LaRouche as "left-protofascists." During "Operation Mop-Up," NCLC members engaged in a series of well-documented beatings of members of these groups." "Well-documented" would mean arrests; if you intend to accept allegations in the press by LaRouche's opponents, you ought to also include the FOIA airtel, which is actually "well-documented".

"During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)." The business about steering toward the extreme right is a myth, and even if it were not, trying to make a comparison to Mussolini would be propagandistic innuendo.

"The Marxist concept of the ruling class was converted by LaRouche into a gigantic conspiracy theory, in which world capitalism was controlled by a secret cabal including the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, Henry Kissinger, the Council on Foreign Relations and other standard villains of the extreme right, many though not all of them Jewish." Propagandistic crap. Adam is pulling a little sleight of hand here, trying to lump LaRouche in with the right-wing conspirophiles. In addition, it is not the case that "many" of LaRouche's opponents are Jewish. And, Adam wishes to imply that LaRouche is attacking someone because they are Jewish; this sort of thing trivializes anti-Semitism, by implying that anyone who ever criticized someone with a Jewish name is an anti-Semite.

"Despite LaRouche's rhetorical skill in presenting them as revolutionary, LaRouche's economic ideas are hardly original: they are similar to the policies of Germany under Bismarck and the statism of Spain under Franco and Portugal under Salazar." This is less obviously ridiculous than Adam's original formulation, but no less false. The models for LaRouche are Lincoln and FDR. That's what he says, that's what he means, end of story.

"LaRouche did not develop his current political and economic ideas in the 1950s or '60s: until at least 1969 he was a Trotskyist, although an increasingly unorthodox one." Adam is a mind-reader?

"Although the expression "Eurasian Land-Bridge," for example, has been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, there is no evidence that LaRouche has ever had anything to do with this project." Deception -- the Landbrige and Asian Highway are not the same thing, nor has anyone outside of Adam and his cohort Andy asserted that they were -- combined with deliberate fallacy of composition.

"This followed a concerted campaign by LaRouche to develop close relations with the Reagan Administration, by publishing flattering articles about administration officials in the LaRouche press." Innuendo; LaRouche publications wrote articles that were both favorable and highly critical of various officials and policies.

"Since 1979 LaRouche has concentrated on infiltrating his followers into the Democratic Party." Innuendo. I myself registered as a Democrat in 1972. Did I "infiltrate" the party? Wesley Clark registered as a Democrat just in time to declare his candidacy for the 2004 election. Did he "infiltrate"?

"The use of the NDPC name has, however, allowed LaRouche followers to compete seriously in Democratic primaries for lesser offices, and even occasionally to win them." Innuendo. What allows LaRouche followers to compete seriously is the fulfillment of petitioning and othe legal requirements. The NDPC was a Political Action Committee like any other.

"The best known example was in 1986, when a LaRouche candidate, Mark Fairchild, won the Democratic primary for the post of Lieutenant-Governor of Illinois." There were two candidates, the other being Janice Hart, about whom there is an article in Misplaced Pages. I attempted to correct this early, and my correction was immediately reverted by Adam.

"Some of the LaRouche organization's successes have come from exploiting public fears about the AIDS epidemic, which they blame on international conspirators." If this sort of innuendo is given any credence, any candidate who puts forward a concrete solution to a contemporary problem (as LaRouche did, by arguing that AIDS should be restored to California's list of communicable diseases and made subject to public health law), can be charged with "exploiting public fears" about that problem. Did FDR "exploit public fears" about the Great Depression? And, LaRouche never blamed AIDS on any international conspirators.

(regarding charges of anti-Semitism): "LaRouche for his part has denied these accusations, asserting that those who accuse him are part of the oligarchic conspiracy to rule the world." Nonsense; LaRouche simply asserted that those who accuse him are liars. Adam's propaganda would be more effective if he didn't lay it on so thick.

"From the early 1970s LaRouche regularly used the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse. The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is a common practice among anti-Semitic groups." Deliberate fallacy of composition -- in 1978, the LaRouche organization published a feature article in Campaigner entitled "Zionism is not Judaism." I notice that some wag added "The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is particularly noticeable in the 1978 publication by the LaRouche organisation entitled Zionism is not Judaism."

"In the 1970s also, LaRouche developed connections with the Ku Klux Klan and the Liberty Lobby, a leading extreme right group, both well- known for anti-Semitism." I dare you to attempt to document this. What are "connections"? This is innuendo.

"In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade." LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as Meyer Lansky with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals.

"LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations." Utterly false. LaRouche has accused the "Zionist lobby", by which is meant principally AIPAC and allied organizations, of pursuing a policy that is harmful to both Israel and the U.S. He has never asserted that they control the U.S. government, let alone the United Nations, which has often passed resolutions that displease AIPAC.

"In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism." They are not "sourced" unless quoted; if King had direct quotes, I am quite certain he would have included them, instead of asking us to accept his characterizations.

"In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis." Provide a quote, or delete.

"There is even a word of praise for Walther Rathenau, an archetypal Jewish business figure of the kind so savagely denounced by LaRouche throughout his career." Innuendo: provide an example of a "Jewish business figure" who was "savagely denounced by LaRouche."

"He explicity states that "Yes, Hitler killed millions of Jews," a direct repudiation of his 1981 statement that only 1.5 million died and those not as a result of a deliberate plan of extermination." Fallacy of composition; LaRouche cannot "directly repudiate" something that he did not say.

"It also operates more sophisticated telemarketing groups, soliciting donations by phone, usually under the guise of various patriotic front organisations to conceal the real source of the phone calls." Bullshit, if you'll pardon my French.

"The funds thus raised were then directed into a maze of dummy companies so as to avoid both taxation and attempts to recover the 'loans.'" Attempts to recover the loans were blocked by one source only: the U.S. government trustees that took over the companies, after the government-imposed involuntary bankruptcy (see significant omissions from the current version).

"One of the most damning aspects of the trial was the revelation of LaRouche's personal corruption. While lenders were told that LaRouche had no money to repay their loans, he in fact spent US$4.2 million on real estate in Virginia and on "improvements" to his 200-acre Leesburg estate. These included a swimming pool and horse riding ring."

Each one of these inventions or propagandistic insinuations constitutes a violation of Misplaced Pages policy; (see Misplaced Pages:What_Wikipedia_is_not). --Herschelkrustofsky 21:01, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's not just the propaganda -- even the parts that attempt to be non-propagandistic are sloppy and amateurish, as if the writer(s) had done no research whatsoever. This ought to be re-written from scratch. -- Peter_Abelard@ausi.com

I see that Krusty the Clown is still vandalizing the article. Should I protect the page? 172 03:47, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the situation here currently warrants protection. Krusty's edits can be dealt with as they occur. Adam 04:06, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Okay. When necessary, I can be called on to protect the page whenever I'm online, as I haven't been an editor of the article. 172 04:12, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Regardless of the outcome of arbitration proceedings, how about dealing with some of the disputed points in Krusty's latest list (the NPOV ones, anyway)? Ambivalenthysteria 04:25, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Propaganda

My copy of Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines propaganda as "the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person." The deliberations on the Talk:Lyndon LaRouche pages, in conjunction with Adam's admission on the Arbitration Evidence Page ("It is of course true that I and others editing here are hostile to LaRouche."), leave little doubt that what we have here is a lynch mob of sorts, editing at cross-purposes with Misplaced Pages policy as stated. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:04, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Responses to Version 2.0

Actually, as described in the article, LaRouche's economic policies don't strike me as corporatist per se (ie there's no reference in the description of LaRouche's economic ideas to creating administrative economic bodies that are drawn from management and labour). Either the section should be developed to explain how LaRouche's policies are corporatist or the reference to corporatism should be dropped. AndyL 04:34, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche is an outspoken opponent of corporatism. It continues to amaze me that you guys can pontificate about his ideas, while remaining entirely unfamiliar with them. --Herschelkrustofsky 05:03, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the term is not perfect, but it seemed to be the best fit for the combination of authoritarian leadership and state direction of the economy that LaRouche seems to be advocating. He does not as far as I know advocate state ownership, so he can't be called a socialist, and although some of his political ideas can be called fascist, "fascist" does not really describe an economic system. "Mercantilist" has some applicability, given the 18th century roots of the so-called American System stuff, but applies more to trade than to the management of the domestic economy. (All this presupposes that LaRouche does in fact hold coherent economic ideas, which I doubt. I think he just uses bits of economic jargon to dress up his conspiracy theories, which are what really drive him). Feel free to suggest alternative wordings. Adam 04:41, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The American System stuff seems to allude to Henry Clay (19th century). At any rate, Adam hit the nail on the head; a conversation based on an assumption that LaRouche is a serious economic thinker is a bit silly. "Mercantilism," "socialism," "New Deal liberalism," "corporatism," or any single economic school of thought don't fit perfectly. So just referring to his support for "state direction of the economy" is fine. 172 04:56, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've found websites that describe LaRouchian economics as corporatist - I don't think economists would necessarily describe them as such though - so I've changed the passage accordingly. I don't think we should say economists would describe his policies as corporatist unless either a) we can find any economists who say this (doubtful as I suspect no serious economists have conducted a review of LaRouche) or b) if we find elements in his economic writings that more clearly approximate corporatism to the degree that we could reasonably claim an economist might see them as such.AndyL 10:42, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If you are hell-bent on defaming someone, the internet is a powerful tool. For example, you can quickly download proof that former U.S. President Bill Clinton is a rapist, that his presidential campaign was backed by space aliens, and that he may have had sex with space aliens. --Herschelkrustofsky 19:57, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

FWIW, I was taught that state direction of the economy was a command economy. Don't know whether this is accurate, or whether it applies to Lyndon. Martin 17:10, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Statism perhaps?AndyL 17:37, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"In 1988 LaRouche was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment for illegally soliciting unsecured loans and tax code violations." This is inaccurate; the charges were all conspiracy charges, and there was no allegation that the loans were illegally solicited. The alleged conspiracy (see significant omissions from the current version) was to deliberately fail to repay the loans.

I've changed this so its consistent with the Washington Post report.

"He now maintains that he was soon disillusioned with Marxism and stayed in the SWP only as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

I've read this elsewhere. Hershell ,what do you say LaRouche says to excuse his long sojurn in the SWP?

He has said many things, but not that one.

--Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You haven't answered my question. How does LaRouche explain his long sojurn in the SWP and then continuing to call himself a Marxist until the mid-1970s?AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"LaRouche was heavily influenced by Healy's conspiratorial world-view and his advocacy of violence and intimidation." This is innuendo. How does Adam know what LaRouche was thinking? Did LaRouche say he was "heavily influenced" by Healy, or anything Healy advocated?

I've modified this. Others on the left have made this observation so I've made a qualification accordingly.

"Once again, LaRouche now maintains that he was an FBI agent during all this activism."

see above

"He began to regard himself and his followers as "Prometheans," superior to all other people" This is a fabrication. LaRouche counterposed the term "Promethean" to Friedrich Nietzsche's categories of "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" in the discussion of Aesthetics, arguing that Nietzsche's approach was wrong.

I don't understand this so I can't comment :)

"During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)." The business about steering toward the extreme right is a myth, and even if it were not, trying to make a comparison to Mussolini would be propagandistic innuendo.

I think this is a fair observation. LaRouche did swing from the extreme left to the right.

How so? What policies did he change? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, he abandoned Marxism for one and moved towards some sort of amalgam of 19th century philopsophers. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"He cites as evidence for this a September 24, 1976 opinion piece in the Washington Post, entitled "NCLC: A Domestic Political Menace," and written by Stephen Rosenfeld, a senior editor (who is Jewish)." Whether Rosenfeld is Jewish is irrelevant; lacking any evidence, Adam is trying to make a case for LaRouche being an anti-Semite, purely through insinuation.

I've removed the reference to Rosenfeld being Jewish

"In practice this amounts to advocating centralised, though not socialist, state control of the economy, with heavy state investment in industry and science, and presumably administered by members of the "Promethian" elite such as LaRouche himself." Clumsy and obvious innuendo.

seems like a fair description of LaRouche to me.

Is that your conception of NPOV? I hope you are kidding. And if not, the matter is straightforward: LaRouche is on the record of being a supporter of "Big Government" a la FDR. That means that the citizenry would control the regulation of the economy by voting for a government that suits its needs. The alternative is to have the economy regulated by an unelected Wall Street establishment, typified by the Fed. Adam's formulation implies that LaRouche is in favor of some sort of dictatorship. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Despite LaRouche's rhetorical skill in presenting them as revolutionary, LaRouche's economic ideas are hardly original: they formed the basis of the corporatist system in Spain under Franco and Portugal under Salazar." This one is a real howler. Did Adam think this up himself?

I've modified this adding a comparison to Bismarck's Germany and referring to statist rather than corporatist policies.

"LaRouche did not develop his current political and economic ideas in the 1950s or '60s: until at least 1969 he was a Trotskyist, although an increasingly unorthodox one." Adam is a mind-reader?

LaRouche was a Trotskyist until the late-1960s, he then "discovered" Rosa Luxermburg's writings on capitalism and adopted them and started making his own revisions. I suggest you read some of LaRouche's own writings from the period though I doubt the "LaRouche movement" will make them available to you.

I have LaRouche's writings from that period. Do you? Or do you rely on Chip Berlet's characterizations? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I did look through a text by Lyn Marcus called "Dialectical Economics" a few years ago. I also have a copy of Rosa Luxemburg's "Accumulation of Capital" published by LaRouche with an introduction by him. I've also read what varioius contemporaries of LaRouche in the SWP say about him. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Although the expression "Eurasian Land-Bridge," for example, has been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, there is no evidence that LaRouche has ever had anything to do with this project." Deception -- the Landbrige and Asian Highway are not the same thing, nor has anyone outside of Adam and his cohort Andy asserted that they were -- combined with deliberate fallacy of composition.

You have yet to provide any independent evidence that the "Eurasian Land-Bridge" as you describe it exists. As I said earlier (see section on this page titled "the Land Bridge") all the articles you cite either do not mention the land bridge at all or cite LaRouche as their source. Despite the fact that you've failed to respond to my comments about the articles you repeat your dubious assertions.

The assertion that the "Asian Highway" is also called the "Eurasian Land-bridge" is yours, not mine. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You have yet to reply to the points I maike in the "Land-Bridge" section of this page. I have yet to see any evidence outside of the LaRouche movement that this project exists. However, you and the LaRouchites claim that the "Eurasian Land-Bridge" is nicknamed the "New Silk Road" which happens to be the nickname of the "Asian Highway" as it turns out. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Since 1979 LaRouche has concentrated on infiltrating his followers into the Democratic Party." Innuendo. I myself registered as a Democrat in 1972. Did I "infiltrate" the party? Wesley Clark registered as a Democrat just in time to declare his candidacy for the 2004 election. Did he "infiltrate"?

The Democrats consider the LaRouche movement to be infiltrators and have taken action against them.

"The Democrats" you refer to are a number of Dixiecrats such as Don Fowler, not the party as a whole. I cited examples such as Sen. Eugene McCarthy who have publicly welcomed LaRouche. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't recall the Democrats being particularly welcoming in the 1980s when LaRouche candidates won a few nominations in Illinois. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"The use of the NDPC name has, however, allowed LaRouche followers to compete seriously in Democratic primaries for lesser offices, and even occasionally to win them." Innuendo. What allows LaRouche followers to compete seriously is the fulfillment of petitioning and othe legal requirements. The NDPC was a Political Action Committee like any other.

the NDPC has no actual link with the Democratic Party though the name implies that it does.

No Political Action Committee as an "actual link". The NDPC (which hasn't existed since the '80s) was no different than any other PAC. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Some of the LaRouche organization's successes have come from exploiting public fears about the AIDS epidemic, which they blame on international conspirators." If this sort of innuendo is given any credence, any candidate who puts forward a concrete solution to a contemporary problem (as LaRouche did, by arguing that AIDS should be restored to California's list of communicable diseases and made subject to public health law), can be charged with "exploiting public fears" about that problem. Did FDR "exploit public fears" about the Great Depression? And, LaRouche never blamed AIDS on any international conspirators.

In the 1980s he blamed AIDS on Moscow.

Bullshit. Produce a quote. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"The ... biological-warfare apparatus could have created AIDS in a ... it is in the strategic interests of Moscow" AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(regarding charges of anti-Semitism): "LaRouche for his part has denied these accusations, asserting that those who accuse him are part of the oligarchic conspiracy to rule the world." Nonsense; LaRouche simply asserted that those who accuse him are liars. Adam's propaganda would be more effective if he didn't lay it on so thick.

need more info before I can comment

"From the early 1970s LaRouche regularly used the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse. The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is a common practice among anti-Semitic groups." Deliberate fallacy of composition -- in 1978, the LaRouche organization published a feature article in Campaigner entitled "Zionism is not Judaism."

need more info before I can comment

"In the 1970s also, LaRouche developed connections with the Ku Klux Klan and the Liberty Lobby, a leading extreme right group, both well- known for anti-Semitism." I dare you to attempt to document this. What are "connections"? This is innuendo.

see

I'm supposed to accept Chip Berlet's opinion as "documentation"? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:07, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"In 1974 LaRouche first began to seek contact with extremist and anti-Semitic right-wing groups and individuals in an effort to forge a tactical alliance in opposing imperialism and ruling class banking interests in general--and the Rockefellers in particular. LaRouche's obsession with conspiracy theories blossomed. Dovetailing with today's American radical Right and neo-fascist neo-populist ideologies, his theories of a Rockefeller-directed global conspiracy of banking interests found a receptive audience.

Yet the core followers of LaRouche still thought of themselves as Leftists forging a temporary and cyncial tactical alliance with `progressive' industrialists to help rebuild a strong economy. With a healthy economy leading to full employment for the working class, the LaRouche followers figured they could then lead the reconstituted working class to revolution. Defectors report that during this period they were required to study Marxist and Leninist tracts and participate in paramilitary training classes led by fellow members.

Having founded the U.S. Labor Party as the NCLC's electoral arm in 1973, LaRouche mounted his first presidential campaign under the USLP banner in 1976. His platform of "Impeach Rocky to prevent imminent nuclear war" garnered only 40,000 votes, but it afforded LaRouche more organizing opportunities on the far Right. Despite its declared Marxist stance, the NCLC stepped up efforts, with mixed success, to penetrate or co-opt such groups as the American Conservative Union, the John Birch Society, the Young Americans for Freedom, and the KKK.

Drawing upon his new contacts on the far Right (reportedly relying in part on Pennsylvania KKK leader Roy Frankhauser) LaRouche arranged with former CIA officer Mitchell WerBell III to provide the NCLC security force with armed self-defense training at WerBell's paramilitary camp in Powder Springs, Georgia. Now deceased, WerBell introduced LaRouche into wider right-wing circles including a shadowy netherworld of spys, mercenaries, and intelligence operatives.

It was during this period that NCLC began to collect and disseminate intelligence on progressive groups. LaRouche publications frequently report their security staffers offer intelligence to domestic and foreign government agencies. While documents released under the Freedom of Information Act reveal that U.S. government agencies frequently dismissed the material provided by the NCLC, it was provided nonetheless. Legal actions against some police agencies have discovered NCLC material in active files on terrorism and subversion.

As LaRouche's fear of persecution and assassination intensified he moved further and further into right-wing circles. His ideological theories were constantly being repackaged to appeal to his new-found friends. One shift in LaRouche's perception of who controlled the worldwide conspiracy came at the time of Nelson Rockefeller's death; an event which left a major hole in LaRouche's theoretical bulwark.

Ever alert to exploit shifting sentiment and historical opportunities, the U.S. Labor Party began to de-emphasise Rockefeller as the archenemy of civilization, replacing him with a worldwide conspiracy under the control of the "British Oligarchy" and their stooge. . .the Queen of England. A careful reading of USLP published material reveals, however, that a remarkable number of the British and other co-conspirators were Jews. It is this fact that prompted several major Jewish groups to denounce LaRouche's theories as anti-Semitic.

This turn toward a Jewish conspiracy theory of history came shortly after the quasi-Nazi Liberty Lobby began praising a 1976 USLP pamphlet titled Carter and the International Party of Terrorism. The pamphlet outlined the "Rockefeller-CIA-Carter axis," which was supposedly trying to "deindustrialize" the U.S. and provoke a war with the Soviet Union by 1978. (At this point LaRouche had not yet discarded his support for the Soviet Union, nor announced his support for "Star Wars" defense against his perceived threat of imminent Soviet attack.) In an overall favorable review of the USLP treatise on the Rockefeller-controlled global conspiracy, Liberty Lobby's newspaper, Spotlight complained that the report failed to mention any of the "major Zionist groups such as the notorious Anti-Defamation League" in its extensive list of government agencies, research groups, organizations and individuals controlled by the "Rockefeller-Carter-CIA" terrorism apparatus.

LaRouche, never one to miss a cue, soon was running articles in his newspaper New Solidarity with themes that betrayed increasingly bigoted view of Jews and Jewish institutions. By the end of 1976, LaRouche had completed his drift to the extremist-right of the political spectrum where his bigoted conspiracy theories linking international bankers, influential Jewish families, furtive KGB agents, and secret societes found fertile ground.

Soon LaRouche was expounding a view linking certain Jewish institutions and Zionist movements to a plot to destroy Western civilization and usher in a "New Dark Age." Linda Ray thinks that more recent LaRouche converts are not even aware of the group's real history, nor of the cult-like inner circle which controls the secret financial operations.

Opportunistic or not, LaRouche's erratic lurch to the right brought gains to the NCLC in membership and financial strength. Yet his right-wing theories and affiliations are still opaque to many observers who dismiss LaRouche on the basis of his cranky conspiratorial world view and general lunacy"

I'm supposed to accept Chip Berlet's opinion as "documentation?" --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade." LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as Meyer Lansky with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals.

I think the evidence is against you on this Hershell

Great. Cite some. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations." Utterly false. LaRouche has accused the "Zionist lobby", by which is meant principally AIPAC and allied organizations, of pursuing a policy that is harmful to both Israel and the U.S. He has never asserted that they control the U.S. government, let alone the United Nations, which has often passed resolutions that displease AIPAC.

need more info before I can comment

"In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism." They are not "sourced" unless quoted; if King had direct quotes, I am quite certain he would have included them, instead of asking us to accept his characterizations.

perhaps we should cite King as the source ie "Dennis King claims that...."

"In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis." Provide a quote, or delete.

In January 1981 LaRouche's New Solidarity International Press Service issued a statement titled "LaRouche Reaffirms '1.5 millions' Analysis"

That's a quote from Dennis King, not LaRouche. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"There is even a word of praise for Walther Rathenau, an archetypal Jewish business figure of the kind so savagely denounced by LaRouche throughout his career." Innuendo: provide an example of a "Jewish business figure" who was "savagely denounced by LaRouche."

"He explicity states that "Yes, Hitler killed millions of Jews," a direct repudiation of his 1981 statement that only 1.5 million died and those not as a result of a deliberate plan of extermination." Fallacy of composition; LaRouche cannot "directly repudiate" something that he did not say.

In January 1981 LaRouche's New Solidarity International Press Service issued a statement titled "LaRouche Reaffirms '1.5 millions' Analysis"

See above. Does all your "research" consist of simply cribbing from King and Berlet? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Like most cults, the LaRouche organisation devotes much of its energy to the sale of literature and the soliciting of small donations at airports and on university campuses." Innuendo. The LaRouche organization raises money exactly as do other political movements, except without the emphasis on large foundation grants.

Perhaps "like most cults" is overselling the argument. A lot of groups that aren't cults sell literature on university campuses or airports. I've removed the first three words from the passage.

"It also operates more sophisticated telemarketing groups, soliciting donations by phone, usually under the guise of various patriotic front organisations to conceal the real source of the phone calls." Bullshit, if you'll pardon my French.

I believe this was proven in court

Then you should have no problem documenting it. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"The funds thus raised were then directed into a maze of dummy companies so as to avoid both taxation and attempts to recover the 'loans.'" Attempts to recover the loans were blocked by one source only: the U.S. government trustees that took over the companies, after the government-imposed involuntary bankruptcy (see significant omissions from the current version).

Again, the court findings are against you here.

Again, you haven't seen the court findings. You have read the Washington Post version, probably second hand from King or Berlet. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"One of the most damning aspects of the trial was the revelation of LaRouche's personal corruption. While lenders were told that LaRouche had no money to repay their loans, he in fact spent US$4.2 million on real estate in Virginia and on "improvements" to his 200-acre Leesburg estate. These included a swimming pool and horse riding ring."

so what's wrong with this?

Nothing, other than the fact that it ain't so.

Are the court transcripts online?AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Note that my new list, posted yesterday, takes into account the changes you have made. And my post at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche/Evidence acknowledges that you have in fact marginally improved the article. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche at the DNC

You've got to listen to this conversation between a LaRouchite and a Democratic delegate in Boston last week. It's from the LaRouche website but it's absolutely hilarious and is a pretty good example of how an ordinary person reacts when confronted with LaRouche propaganda. AndyL 19:58, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I also found this very enjoyable, but just to clarify, the young, witty black guy in the dreadlocks is the LaRouche activist, and the constipated white Baby Boomer is the guy that Andy characterizes as an "ordinary person." --Herschelkrustofsky 21:02, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I didn't find the LaRouchite witty at all. The white dude was giving him way more credit than he deserved, and it is funny because he really calls him on the fact that he has no policy--that he refuses to answer any questions about issues, has literature full of nonsense, and only responds by inviting him to the a study group. The fact that the LaRouchies actually posted this video shows how out of touch they are, and the fact that they were surreptitiously videotaping the conversation shows how weird and creepy they are. --Aug 1 21:08:35 UTC 2004

NPOVishness

I haven't read the archived talk pages, but it strikes me that the story of Jeremiah Duggan is a really notable omission. Duggan's death did quite a bit to expose LaRouche's organization to intense media and police scrutiny.

Also, reading through it, I believe that there are many cases of the text being just blatantly POV toward calling the LaRouche organization an anti-Semitic cult. Don't get me wrong: I find them to be a genuinely scary cult, and I have a friend who bears scars from Operation Mop-Up. But still, something like:

"During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)."

is just blatantly POV. There is no reason to mention Mussolini here if our goal is to provide information on Lyndon LaRouche. LaRouche's writings should be treated on their own, zany, scary, level and not because they are similar to Mussolini's. DanKeshet 06:53, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)