Talk:Records of the Three Kingdoms

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Moving of page

i suggest moving this page to "Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms".

Although a search through Google shows up 177, 441 and 215 results for "Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms", "Records of the Three States" and "Records of the Three Kingdoms" respectively, i still believe that "chronicle" is the appropriate terminology for a historical record such as this. Please advise.

--Plastictv 12:12, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Having seen the disambiguation page for Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms, i retract my last suggestion. --Plastictv 06:18, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Bao Xin

I added a {{fiction}} tag to Bao Xin because I wasn't sure if this was a fictional or historical figure. Perhaps someone who knows more about Sanguo Zhi could clear that up. --F a ng Aili 17:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Title Edit

Shouldn't the title have "the" before "Three Kingdoms?"

I guess it depends on whether 三国志 is being interpreted/translated as: 1) three kingdoms' records (records that were kept by three kingdoms); or 2) the three kingdoms' records (which is the time period covered, so I'd imagine this one would be more proper).

"Records of the Three Kingdoms" anyone?

DranKof 03:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have made a technical request to move, I don't think anyone will object "Records of the Three Kingdoms". Quite common over the rarely-used, if ever, "Records of Three Kingdoms". --Cold Season (talk) 03:44, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

English Translation

Does anybody know of an English translation of Records of the Three Kingdoms, either available for purchase or online? Or, if not, is there anybody willing to attempt a translation for Wikisource? That would make the Three Kingdoms project far more accessible to English-speaking editors such as myself, and may decrease the incorrect use of Romance of the Three Kingdoms as a source for historical information. Benjitheijneb (talk) 22:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Not a translation of the Records of the Three Kingdoms, but the historian Rafe de Crespigny has put his translation of the End of Han portions of the Zizhi Tongjian (which took material from the Records) online here (part 1) and here (part 2). For coverage from 220 to 280, you should look at the translation of Zizhi Tongjian by Achilles Fang, but unfortunately that's not available online. _dk (talk) 01:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I had heard of Zizhi Tongjian before, but never thought to look for a translation; thank you very much for the link, it should prove useful. Of course, it would probably be more useful to have a copy of the Records themselves than the Zizhi Tongjian (being the closest secondary source to the period), so I will keep looking for that. Benjitheijneb (talk) 17:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Can 184 be the Beginning of the Records of the Three Kingdoms?

As we can see at korean wiki, japanese wiki and chinese wiki of record of 3k, the record of 3k was believed to begin AD 184.

However the record only contains Book of Wei (魏書), Book of Shu (蜀書), Book of Shu (蜀書), and we know that Wei started at AD 220, Shu and Wu started later. Then HOW could the record of 3k start at AD 184?

184 year was the year of Yellow Turban Rebellion, and chapter 1 of the ROMANCE of 3k states that At this time in the county of Julu was a certain Zhang family, of whom three brothers bore the name of Zhang Jue, Zhang Ba, and Zhang Lian. Let's find Zhang Jue, Zhang Ba and Zhang Lian at Records of the Three Kingdoms. I can not find that names of this wiki page.

Also I could NOT find He Jin, Liu Xie (later became Emperor Xian), Liu Bian (later became Prince of Hongnong), Liu Hong(later became Emperor Ling), and these people are the Prime minister and the emperors of the later Han. (Though I can find Dong Zhuo)

If Records of the Three Kingdoms can be said to begin in AD 184, then certainly it should have the records of these people.

Therefore I have some doubt about the statement that Records of the Three Kingdoms covers covering the years 184-280 CE. REMEMBER I did not read the Records of the Three Kingdoms. I only read wiki page of Records of the Three Kingdoms.

New world encyclopedia said that The Records of Three Kingdoms (三國志, 三国志, Sānguó Zhì), is the official and authoritative historical record for the period of Three Kingdoms (189-280 C.E.), originally composed in the third century by Chen Shou ( 陳壽).

http://history.cultural-china.com/en/174History2028.html said that The Records of Three Kingdoms (San Guo Zhi, 三国志), setting the Wei Kingdom of the Cao family as the legitimacy, is the official and authoritative historical text on the period of Three Kingdoms covering from 189 to 280 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gauge00 (talk • contribs) 12:15, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

The Chinese wikipedia states: "...就是從漢靈帝中平元年（184年），到晉武帝太康元年（280年）九十多年的歷史。" ("...jiùshì cóng hàn líng dì zhōng píng yuán nián (184 nián), dào jìn wǔ dì tài kāng yuán nián (280 nián )"), basically stating that the book starts with the first year of Emperor Ling of the Han dynasty(漢靈帝/hàn líng dì) in 184 to the first year of Emperor Wu of the Jin dynasty (晉武帝/jìn wǔ dì) in 280. The reference cited in the Chinese wikipedia indicates that in the Tang catalog, there are in fact 66 volumes of 三國志, covering the entirety of this period. siafu (talk) 14:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

My opinion is that 184 is incorrect, and that 189 is correct one. Though I never read it. So I have no knowdlege to determine which is correct one. I'd like to hear the opinions of those who have read the contents of the record of the three kingdoms. (Gauge00 (talk) 15:33, 22 June 2012 (UTC))

The source says 184. Your opinion is not relevant, especially since you haven't read the original text. We have no reason to doubt the source here. siafu (talk) 16:07, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

The source says 184 ==== Which source said that 189 was the beginning of the RECORD of 3k? My opionion is that beginning 184 is probably a consensus only within in wikipedia. Some Other encylopedia outside of wiki said that 189 was the beginning. There is possibility that Wiki could be wrong, they are right(Gauge00 (talk) 17:16, 22 June 2012 (UTC))

Your opinion is not relevant, especially since you haven't read the original text. ===== Did you read the original context? If you did not read the contents of it, your reponse is not appropriate response(Gauge00 (talk) 17:16, 22 June 2012 (UTC))

Your speculative opinion of when you believe the book should start based on what you believe should be in the book, which you have not read, is at best original research and not relevant to the development of this article. It could also be much worse, but I was, believe it or not, assuming good faith here. I can't find an ebook version of 三國志, but the simple way to answer this question is not to speculate and guess but just to go look it up yourself, perhaps at your local library. siafu (talk) 17:47, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

The book opens with the childhood of Cao Cao, who was born in 155, but chronicles biographical events as early as the mid-Eastern Han. The Book of Shu begins with Liu Bei's ancestor Liu Yan (劉延), and picks up around the year 85. Remember, Records of the Three Kingdoms is arranged biographically, not annalistically. Chen Shou died in 297, which gives us an easy endpoint, although the he completed the book sometime before his death. It is the official history of the Three Kingdoms Period, but covers matters long before its beginning. No reason to change the dates, since the dates of the period are well-established. Snuge purveyor (talk) 16:13, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

There are Cao Cao (155-220), Dong Zhuo(?-192), Lu Bu (?-199), Liu Bei (161-223) and Lu always called Liu Bei as "younger brother". Therefore Lu's birthday possibly be 155 the same year of Cao. Dong Zhuo was a stepfather of Lu. Therefore birthdays of Dong Zhuo and Ding Yuanis around 145? Birthday of Empress Dowager Dong could be 135, cause she gave birth to Emperor Ling in 156. However any above facts does NOT make the beginning of recrod of three kingdoms 155, 145, 135.

We all know the Yellow Turban Rebellion (184), and that conspicuos figures related to this rebel, which can be seen at Commanders and leaders of Yellow Turban Rebellion, are Huangfu Song, He Jin, Lu Zhi, and Zhang Jue, Zhang Ba, Zhang Liang, Bo Cai. These people do NOT exists in Records of the Three Kingdoms. By this we can, without any doubt, conclude that Records of the Three Kingdoms does NOT deal with the Yellow Turban Rebellion. By this we can conclude that 184 could not the begginging year of Records of the Three Kingdoms. Once again I'd like emphasize that some encyclopedia outside of wiki said that the beginning year was 189, not 184 (Gauge00 (talk) 17:53, 22 June 2012 (UTC))

Your argument here does not make much sense, since a lack of completeness or quality on any scale cannot lead us to conclude a particular starting date. The book doubtless fails too mention many of the numerous figures in the events covered, but it would fallacious to conclude that therefore the event itself is not covered or included in the timeframe. siafu (talk) 17:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

To say Records of the Three Kingdoms "does NOT deal with the Yellow Turban Rebellion" simply because it does not carry biographies for all involved parties is prima facie ridiculous. Records of the Three Kingdoms deals with the Yellow Turban Rebellion a number of times, the first one being literally page three. There is also no reason to "conclude" what is and is not contained in Records of the Three Kingdoms by means other than actually reading the actual book. Records of the Three Kingdoms is right here on wikisource; if you can't be bothered to check your deductions against that, it's probably inadvisable to suggest emending this article based on them. Snuge purveyor (talk) 18:20, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Snuge purveyor said that This record does indeed deal with the Yellow Turban Rebellion. Do you really think so?. (Gauge00 (talk) 20:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC))

gauge00 searched older version of Records of the Three Kingdoms. I found out that the versions before 1 June 2011 said that 3kRecords covers the years 189-280 CE; and that the versions after 27 July 2011 saud that 3kRecords covers the years 184-280 CE; Then who changed 189 to 184? The cuprit is Special:Contributions/Ordaz17. Then I'd like to ask the people of wiki, do you really think that Ordaz17 has the knowledge, wisdom, or something to change 189-280 to 184-280???? What on earth did you make no comments at that time when Ordaz17 did CHANGE 189->184? (Gauge00 (talk) 22:31, 22 June 2012 (UTC))

Cao Cao section of Records of the Three Kingdoms

Someone gave a link of Cao Cao (武帝紀) at http://zh.wikisource.org/三國志/卷01; I translated Cao's 184 (yellow rebellion years) to 189, the days of Dong Zhou.

光和末，黃巾起 (last years of 178-183), yellow rebels broke, Cao made punitive campaigns against rebel at 潁川. Cao was promoted to 濟南相; There is bad officials somewhere, Cao striped off eight of them. Cao did strict rules, that town became calmed down.

久之 ... ===== Afterwards, Cao was promoted to 東郡太守, but Cao came back to hometowen declining it feigning his illness.

頃之 .... =====Afterwards, 王芬, etc plotted to replace 靈帝 to 合肥侯; and they informed it to Cao, Cao rejected; Their plot failed;

金城邊章 .... ==== An official 韓遂, of 金城 town, rebeled; their soliders became 10k; whole world fluctuated; Cao became 典軍校尉, Emperor Ling(靈帝) died (189), prince became Emperor; 太后(Emperess He) became regent; 大將軍何進與袁紹謀誅宦官; 何進(He Jin) plotted to kill eunuches with 袁紹(Yuan Shao), but Empress He rejected He Jin's plan; Then He Jin summoned Dong Zhuo to intimidate to Empress He;

卓未至而進見殺 ... ==== however before Dong reached, He Jin was killed; After Dong reached Capital; Dong dethroned Emperor; and issue new Emperor Xian; Capital became chaos; Dong tried to make Cao 驍騎校尉 and to use him as Dong's official; however Cao changed his name(變易姓名); went to east;

出關.... ==== Cao was caught by suspicion of 亭長; but someone knwe Cao and asked; Cao released(解);

卓遂殺太后及弘農王 ===== Dong killed Empress(太后) and former Emperor(弘農王); Cao gather his property(家財) and make soldier(合義兵); and revolted; It was time of 5th year(己吾) of 中平(184-189); that is 189. (Gauge00 (talk) 20:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC))

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