Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard

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Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive367#RfC_closure_review_request_at_Talk:Rajiv_Dixit#RFC_can_we_say_he_peddaled_false_hoods_in_the_lede

(Initiated 20 days ago on 5 December 2024) - Ratnahastin (talk) 07:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Done voorts (talk/contributions) 19:44, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 12 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Mentoring process

(Initiated 224 days ago on 15 May 2024) Discussion died down quite a long time ago. I do not believe anything is actionable but a formal closure will help. Soni (talk) 04:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Not done I don't think that a formal closure will be helpful given that there are several sub-discussions here on various issues. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:50, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 79 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Turkey#RfC_on_massacres_and_genocides_in_the_lead

(Initiated 78 days ago on 8 October 2024) Expired tag, no new comments in more than a week. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. Also see: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard topic. Bogazicili (talk) 17:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: Not sure if anyone is looking into this, but might be a good idea to wait for a few weeks since there is ongoing discussion. Bogazicili (talk) 16:33, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Done voorts (talk/contributions) 00:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines#Request_for_comment:_Do_the_guidelines_in_WP:TPO_also_apply_to_archived_talk_pages?

(Initiated 70 days ago on 16 October 2024) Discussion seems to have petered out a month ago. Consensus seems unclear. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Note: Needs admin closure imho, due to its importance (guideline page), length (101kb), and questions about neutrality of the Rfc question and what it meant. Mathglot (talk) 21:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

And in true Streisand effect fashion, this discussion, quiescent for six weeks, has some more responses again. Mathglot (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

~~{{doing}}~~ voorts (talk/contributions) 23:35, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Oops; I put this in the wrong section. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:30, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 58 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. 22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Grey_Literature

(Initiated 46 days ago on 10 November 2024) Discussion is slowing significantly. Likely no consensus, personally. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 was very clearly rejected. The closer should try to see what specific principles people in the discussion agreed upon if going with a no consensus close, because there should be a follow-up RfC after some of the details are hammered out. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:10, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Doing... —Compassionate727 13:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Compassionate727: Still working on this? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:18, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Ugh… in practice, no. I'm still willing to do it, but it's in hiatus because of the three(!) pending challenges of my closures at AN, while I evaluate to what extent I need to change how I approach closures. If somebody else wants to take over this, they should feel free. —Compassionate727 22:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Taking a pause is fair. Just wanted to double check. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

asking for an update if possible. I think this RFC and previous RFCBEFORE convos were several TOMATS long at this point, so I get that this might take time. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#RFC_on_signing_RFCs

(Initiated 42 days ago on 13 November 2024) - probably gonna stay status quo, but would like a closure to point to Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Done Soni (talk) 21:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Check Your Fact

(Initiated 42 days ago on 13 November 2024) RfC has elapsed, and uninvolved closure is requested. — Red-tailed sock _{(Red-tailed hawk's nest)} 15:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#RfC Indian numbering conventions

(Initiated 39 days ago on 16 November 2024) Very wide impact, not much heat. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Consensus seems clear, I don't think my Indian-ness poses a WP;COI here, closed. Soni (talk) 22:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of fictional countries set on Earth#RfC on threshold for inclusion

(Initiated 35 days ago on 20 November 2024) TompaDompa (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (music)#RfC about the naming conventions for boy bands

(Initiated 17 days ago on 8 December 2024) No further participation in the last 7 days. Consensus is clear but I am the opener of the RfC and am not comfortable closing something I am so closely involved in, so would like somebody uninvolved to close it if they believe it to be appropriate.RachelTensions (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable closing a discussion on a guideline change this early. In any case, if the discussion continues as it has been, a formal closure won't be necessary. —Compassionate727 13:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#RfC: Should a bot be created to handle AfC submissions that haven't changed since the last time they were submitted?

(Initiated 40 days ago on 15 November 2024) This RfC expired five days ago, has an unclear consensus, I am involved, and discussion has died down. JJP_{Mas_ter} (she/they) 22:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Len_Blavatnik#RfC:_NPOV_in_the_lead

(Initiated 9 days ago on 16 December 2024) RFC is only 5 days old as of time of this posting, but overwhelming consensus approves of status quo, except for a single COI editor. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The CoI editor has now accepted that consensus is for the status quo, but I think a formal close from an uninvolved editor, summarizing the consensus would be helpful, since the issue has been coming up for a while and many editors were involved. — penultimate_supper 🚀 16:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

yes, despite multiple posts to WP:BLPN, WP:NPOVN, WP:3O, several talk page discussions, and now an RFC, I doubt the pressure to remove word oligarch from the lede of that page will stop. An appropriate close could be a useful thing to point at in the future though. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Done by Nomoskedasticity. —Compassionate727 13:30, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Template talk:Infobox country#Request for comment on greenhouse emissions

(Initiated 89 days ago on 27 September 2024) Lots of considered debate with good points made. See the nom's closing statement. Kowal2701 (talk) 09:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Done —Compassionate727 13:29, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 33 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Chloe Melas#RFC on allegation of making a false allegation (resubmission)

(Initiated 31 days ago on 24 November 2024) The bot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an independent close. TarnishedPath 23:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Done —Compassionate727 13:44, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog
V	Nov	Dec	Total
CfD	0	16	16
TfD	0	8	8
MfD	2	2	4
FfD	1	6	7
RfD	9	70	79
AfD	0	1	1

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of songs recorded by Mohammed Rafi (A)

(Initiated 25 days ago on 30 November 2024) Please review this discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion has now been relisted thrice. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Done voorts (talk/contributions) 00:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 92 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:LGBT history in Georgia#Proposed merge of LGBT rights in Georgia into LGBT history in Georgia

(Initiated 80 days ago on 7 October 2024) A merge + move request with RM banners that needs closure. No new comments in 20 days. —CX Zoom 20:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Done —Compassionate727 14:11, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 70 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Tesla Cybercab#Proposed merge of Tesla Network into Tesla Cybercab

(Initiated 68 days ago on 18 October 2024) This needs formal closure by someone uninvolved. N2e (talk) 03:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be better to leave that discussion be. There is no consensus one way or the other. I could close it as "no consensus," but I think it would be better to just leave it so that if there's ever anyone else who has a thought on the matter, they can comment in that discussion instead of needing to open a new one. —Compassionate727 14:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Stadion Miejski (Białystok)#Requested move 5 November 2024

(Initiated 50 days ago on 5 November 2024) RM that has been open for over a month. Natg 19 (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:JTG Daugherty Racing#Requested move 22 November 2024

(Initiated 33 days ago on 22 November 2024) Pretty simple RM that just needs an uninvolved editor to close. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 17:40, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Done —Compassionate727 14:37, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Williamsburg Bray School#Splitting proposal

(Initiated 28 days ago on 27 November 2024) Only two editors—the nominator and myself—have participated. That was two weeks ago. Just needs an uninvolved third party for closure. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Doing... BusterD (talk) 20:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 58 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Block review: Sceptre and AndyTheGrump

Sceptre unblocked, AndyTheGrump remains blocked.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Background

Will (2012-05-05). "On Misplaced Pages and Breanna Manning". Liberal Will. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
- 2012-06-18: "As the writer of that blog post and someone who would rather refer to Manning as 'she', " — Sceptre
2012-05-05: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 40#Breanna Manning
2012-05-05: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive151#Breanna Manning
2012-05-05: User talk:Sceptre#Manning
2012-05-05: "If you're trying to suggest he's male, despite all that, then you're either dense or bigoted." — Sceptre
2012-05-06: Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Archive 95#Fundamental problems with MOS:IDENTITY
2012-05-07: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive751#AndyTheGrump
2012-06-21: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive757#AndyTheGrump
2012-06-21: "This topic is closed. I will not allow Sceptre to violate Wikipedoa WP:BLP policy on my talk page in pursuit of his deranged and obnoxious campaign to 're-gender' Bradley Manning against his own express wishes. Sceptre, fuck of and troll elsewhere, you repulsive little lying bigot." — AndyTheGrump
2012-06-21: "allow me to apologise for any indirectness there Sceptre, allow me to say, from me to you, fuck off and troll elsewhere. Am I being clear and direct ?" — Penyulap
2012-06-25: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Special enforcement log#Current sanctions
2012-06-25: User talk:Sceptre#BLP Ban imposed
2012-06-27: User talk:Sceptre#June 2012

The links above were added by someone else. Arcandam (talk) 15:11, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Request

Please unblock users Sceptre and AndyTheGrump. Unblocking both is the fairest (least unfair) solution at this moment in space and time. Arcandam (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Unblock requests are to be made by the editor, not by proxy. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Why? Do you have a link? Arcandam (talk) 05:07, 27 June 2012 (UTC) p.s. Sceptre's unblock must go via the ban appeals subcommittee BTW.

Block reviews can be requested by any user, not just the one who was blocked. See this subsection of the blocking policy page. That said, it also says that appeals typically should be made at AN, not AN/I. Might I suggest moving the thread? elektrik SHOOS (talk) 05:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I stand corrected! Thanks for pointing that out. :) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:38, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe Sceptre is blocked, just banned. And I think a topic probation, as suggested in the discussion, would have been a more fair 'punishment' than the ban that was enacted. -- Avanu (talk) 05:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

You may want to double-check that. He is both blocked and banned. Arcandam (talk) 05:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Wow.... just unbelievably shitty of SarekofVulcan to do that. Seriously, that kind of cocky ass-hat stuff is why he has no business being an admin. He simply amps up the conflict instead of working to resolve problems. Sceptre didn't need to be kicked while down. I didn't agree with Sceptre's previous conduct, but really, this is just BS. -- Avanu (talk) 05:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, Avanu -- start the recall, or STOP the personal attacks. Thanks.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Sarek, my language above was strong, but hardly comparable I think to blocking a guy in the manner you just had. You've had numerous run-ins with people over the years and a large contingent of people who dislike your tactics. I suggest that you simply resign or, even better, just avoid using the tools for a while; the process you refer to on your page seems overly convoluted. My personal feeling is that you lack self-control when your emotions are running high, and you make snap decisions that even you would question later. If you were forced to act like a normal user for a while, even by your own choice, I think you might realize that for most of us, the only option is patience. I'll reduce the level of derision in my comments, for your sake, but if I see your actions stepping over the line, I will let you know in plain and unambiguous language. Fair enough? -- Avanu (talk) 14:27, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

No, you'll "reduce the level of derision" BECAUSE THAT IS WIKIPEDIA POLICY. If you don't like working the same way everyone else does, try Citizendium. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:32, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok, and as for the other 99% of my comment....? I was actually trying to communicate why I am unhappy with your actions. (And please don't lecture me about WP:Civility, Mr. Pot. Thanks, Mr. Kettle.) -- Avanu (talk) 14:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Sceptre's previous conduct was troutworthy (and in my opinion also worthy of a topic ban), but we were having a productive conversation on his talkpage. He was not refusing to get the point and there were no IDHT problems. The goal of the topic ban was not to prevent us from having a productive conversation on Sceptre's talkpage. Arcandam (talk) 05:40, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Support unblock of Sceptre. While the reference to the issue on his talkpage was technically a violation of the ban, it was a first such violation; failing to realize that the ban applies to one's own talkpage too is a frequent mistake and one easy to make, and we should also take into account that it was during a discussion that was explicitly brought to Scepter's talkpage by an editor from the opposite side of the debate. In these circumstances, a simple reminder would have been far more appropriate than an immediate block, especially a block of this length and without warning. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Nota bene: In our discussion on Sceptre's talkpage none of the problems that caused the topicban (IDHT, refusal to get the point) occured. We were having a productive discussion, if we are unable or not allowed to do that then it is impossible to improve this encyclopedia. I voted for a topic ban on articles related to Manning, this is not an article. I won't hesitate to request a block if Sceptre deserves it, I am not a Sceptre fanboy and I disagree with Sceptre about a couple of things, but for now the most reasonable solution is to unblock Sceptre so we can continue the conversation on Sceptre's talkpage. Arcandam (talk) 06:02, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment – How the Bradley Manning article got to GA status, despite that it woefully fails criterion #5 of Misplaced Pages:Good article criteria, is beyond me. It should be delisted. --MuZemike 05:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Good point, I agree. Arcandam (talk) 06:02, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Support unblock of Sceptre per Fut.Perf., although I didn't realize that a topic ban of this sort was applicable to one's own talkpage. - Jorgath (talk) 06:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment I didn't know this either. I have notified Sarek about this thread. -- Dianna (talk) 06:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment - When Sarek does address this, I believe he needs to agree to fully explain the BLPBAN in plain and clear language, and be willing to warn and explain when necessary if Sceptre happens to step close to the line again, alternately, Sarek could simply explain his ban fully, plainly, and clearly, and allow other administrators to do the actual enforcement, rather than biting someone who I believe actually wants to follow the community consensus. -- Avanu (talk) 06:14, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment It seems to me that the biggest issue was that a number of people in the community thought the topic ban we were establishing meant editing BLP articles and their talk pages, especially Manning, not mentioning any of those on Sceptre's own talk page. We may need to clarify that ban as a community. - Jorgath (talk) 06:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Unblock Sceptre and trout all responsible for this ridiculous farce. —Tom Morris (talk) 07:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support unblock of Sceptre; it's likely he didn't fully understand the ban. Cardamon (talk) 08:33, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Question: I'm not sure I follow the logic of the original ban closing, and don't really know the process. Are blocks/bans typically implemented by a vote, or only for sensitive areas? Does the "weight of the arguments" system used on other parts of the wiki not apply, and how are sensitive areas defined? Thanks, Sazea (talk) 08:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support unblock, 100%. I didn't know that the topic ban stretched as far as a civil conversation on Sceptre's own talk page, and many above me also didn't know that, so no doubt Sceptre was also unaware. A warning would've been a much better way to handle this. Far, far too trigger-happy. Bunnies! Leave a message 10:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment - FYI, I was going to make this unblock, but it appears Sceptre has not yet recognized that he is prohibited from making such speech even on his talk page. This worries me: I don't want to see some of the IDHT behavior extended here, and then have this issue come up again in a month or so, which I think it might. Magog the Ogre (talk) 10:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Oppose, this attempt to involuntarily 'request an unblock on my behalf'. I have not requested an unblock, have accepted that my behaviour merited a block, and intended to accept the block without appeal. To use an involuntary unblock as 'fairness' to justify unblocking someone else seems to me to be highly questionable - and more so when the block has little time left to run, and this is supposed to 'balance' an unblock for a continuing refusal on Sceptre's part to conform to WP:BLP policy, and to cease using Misplaced Pages as a platform for a campaign to 'regender' Bradley Manning against Manning's own express wishes. Sceptre's continuing IDHT behaviour should be looked at on its own merits. copied by request AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Oppose both The blocks were subject to significant discussion at ANI. Andy opposes the request, and Sceptre's CANNOT be unblocked here. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:46, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Uhm, where was Sceptre's block discussed previously? Also, I disagree a valid unblock consensus cannot be reached here. AN has always been a valid forum for that sort of thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:05, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment In this diff and this one, I made it clear to Spectre that the topic ban included discussion of Manning's gender identity, not just article edits.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree that those diffs make anything clear at all. They make clear that AN/I, and presumably the rest of WP space, is also in the topic ban. They do not make clear that Sceptre's own talk page is in the topic ban. I think this is actually the nexus of the problem - you think you've explained something succinctly and clearly, but to Sceptre and a number of others, it was as clear as mud. - Jorgath (talk) 12:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

The question of whether Arcandam could make this request at all has come up, as the policy document no longer states that a third party request may be made at this noticeboard. So, the request is inappropriate.
Discussion of a clarification to the policy page is here. on the policy talkpage. Penyulap ☏ 14:09, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Given the amount of support (akin to 'seconds' in parliamentary procedure), I think it can be safely assumed that this request is something the community supports discussion on. Additionally, given the fact that "Any user may request a block", it seems reasonable that the converse is reasonable as well, i.e. 'Any user may request a unblock'. -- Avanu (talk) 14:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

As I have written on the talkpage of the policy page, 14 minutes before you used the word 'assumed', "I think it warrants a mention as there are differing assumptions on the matter." per it's removal from the page, indicating that you are mistaken. Penyulap ☏ 14:40, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

That's a moot point. Sceptre obviusly did make an unblock request himself. Given that fact, it doesn't matter who brought it here and in what form. Let's keep irrelevant process bureaucracy out of this thread here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

So you're assuming it's fine, Andy is suggesting it's not, on the policy page it's not, so how does this not support the question of clarifying the issue ? Penyulap ☏ 14:54, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY, this should go forward anyway, and WP:IAR that policy because it doesn't make sense. - Jorgath (talk) 15:03, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

with the division of editors on either side, it seems common-sense to fix the darn policy. Penyulap ☏ 15:28, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this is discussion-worthy -- while the topic ban was clearly validly imposed in my view, I acknowledge that this enforcement action wasn't as clearly supportable. Otoh, I haven't seen anything that's made me change my mind yet. "banned from edits relating to Manning" is about as clear as you get -- I'm quite confused by the editors above claiming it isn't.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:22, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's the problem, Sarek. People in the discussion were !voting, but you had TWO concurrent discussions and people weighing in at different levels. For example, the two editors who led a call for bans said:

Anyone willing to brandish WP:BLPBAN and topic ban Sceptre from making edits relating to Manning? Salvio Let's talk about it! 23:05, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

How do people feel about a topic ban for Sceptre from articles related to Bradley Manning, broadly construed? I'd support such a ban. – NULL ‹talk›‹edits› 23:15, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Notice in the original post, the differing levels of each post... the latter one isn't indented, and Nobody Ent claims to be refactoring the two requests under one section. In addition, the various comments of people later show that they weren't (for most of them) specifically picking one or the other, just saying "Support" or "Support topic ban". Finally, when you closed it at AN/I, you simply said "BLPBAN imposed", but didn't make a summation of exactly what the ban was going to be or how it was to be enforced (even the WP:BLPBAN page says "articles", it doesn't say everything). Even the template on Sceptre's page that said "topic-banned from edits relating to Bradley Manning, broadly construed", since that contains a link to an article, it can easily be seen to be meant to apply to the linked article only. In short, it is about communication first and clear *and* helpful warnings later. -- Avanu (talk) 17:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, the notification template informing Sceptre of his ban (placed by Sarek) says "Further violations of the BLP policy will result in you being banned from editing" (notice it does not say 'Blocked'). Another good cause to warn first, before acting with tools. -- Avanu (talk) 17:29, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

This is the wrong venue to be wikilawyering over the wording of standard warning templates. Take it up at Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons/Special enforcement log (redir from Template talk:BLP Spec Sanction) if you think it's unclear.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Avanu beat me to it, but that was what I was going to say, more or less. Especially the part about the link to the Bradley Manning article. - Jorgath (talk) 17:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Support unblock because I don't see evidence that Sceptre was willing to violate his topic ban and, as such, I believe he should just have been issued a warning. As a side note, to avoid these problems, when I impose a topic ban, I always point out that the editor in question is prohibited from making any edits relating to X across all namespaces (i.e. everywhere on Misplaced Pages). It helps to avoid confusion, in my opinion. Salvio 17:50, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support unblock - largely per Salvio above. Sceptre overstepped his topic ban by posting to his talk page and he may not have been aware that it also came under the topic ban. Having said that, he seriously needs to back away from the Manning article and its related articles, and just move onto something else - Alison 17:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support unblock on account of some confusion about scope and assuming good faith, with the understanding that, going forward, the topic ban includes all namespaces, and further violations will result in extended blocks. —Torchiest _edits 17:59, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A request for comment has been opened at Misplaced Pages talk:Blocking policy#Proposal: third party request for unblock

Should the proposed change, "A third party may request the review of a block at the Administrators' noticeboard," or some variation of that change, be added to the unblocking policy. Penyulap ☏ 22:52, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Procedural discussion

as it is not related to any editor, I figure I can ask the question, should block review requests be combined, or considered separately Penyulap ☏ 12:58, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

which means the question doesn't belong here, except where it relates to these two editors, oops ! Penyulap ☏ 13:00, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I'll have no part or opinion on either matter as I am involved clearly on one side, also, as a disclaimer, I edited (created) the policy section that has been linked to. I simply wish for everyone else to have their say here with as little confusion as possible, so I have separated the issues. all of which can sill be discussed, but with more clarity. Penyulap ☏ 12:49, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Naturally, anyone is free to revert if they feel up to the challenge of tallying both sides, counting single 'oppose' or 'support' with 'both' !votes and so on, good luck guys and girls ! Penyulap ☏ 12:54, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, no offense, but I've collapsed them again. I find it far more confusing to have a new section started in the middle of an ongoing discussion. Also, the part about AndyTheGrump was obviously a non-starter anyway, given his own statement, so I believe it will neither make for much confusion in the original format, nor would an extra section about him be useful at this stage. I'm also not fond of having the sections subdivided into "support" and "oppose" vote sections. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:14, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

No offence taken, I'll just suggest that combining an unblock request for the two editors will be every bit as satisfying to the community, and editors involved, as the combined discussion of their original block. Penyulap ☏ 14:44, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Combining a unblock request for two editors blocked several days apart for different reasons doesn't strike me as terribly satisfying... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:31, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Confused the hell out of me. Keilana| 18:33, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Unblock

I've unblocked Sceptre as there seems to be a consensus that Sarek overstepped and Sceptre should be unblocked. I don't see much discussion related to Andy's block, so I've left that in place for the time being. I hope this helps to resolve things, but if it doesn't, another admin can of course revert me. I'm not perfect. Keilana| 18:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks for the review! --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

It'd probably be best to unblock Andy as well now. I think everyone is clear where they stand. Black Kite (talk) 18:14, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, no, don't unblock Andy. Andy has requested that he not be unblocked until he serves his term. The double unblock was proposed out of a misguided sense of fairness, believing that the blocks were for the same thing. They weren't. Sceptre's topic ban and Andy's block were for the same issue, but Sceptre's block was for a mistaken understanding of the scope of the topic ban. - Jorgath (talk) 18:17, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Jorgath, it seemed like Andy was just blocked for fairness purposes so I've unblocked for the same. I've left messages for both. Again, if there's a clear consensus to re-block, then I will self-revert or another admin is welcome to revert. Keilana| 18:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Fairness? Looks to me from the diffs above like it was persistent incivility. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. The timeline was as follows: Sceptre reported Andy for persistent incivility. Andy was found to have been persistently uncivil, and was blocked. A boomerang then hit Sceptre with a topic ban from an area in which they have a bad history, for provoking Andy. The block being reviewed was SarekOfVulcan's block of Sceptre for violating that topic ban in a way that Sceptre was unaware was a violation. The initial proposal suggested unblocking Andy too, out of fairness. Andy responded on his talk page with a request that was copied here, saying that he did not wish to be unblocked, mostly because he felt that he deserved it. - Jorgath (talk) 18:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Then I misread that portion of the situation. I'll restore Andy's block but I will leave my unblock of Sceptre; I think it should stand. Keilana| 18:28, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I think it should as well. The "fairness" equivalent of Andy's block is Sceptre's topic ban, which still stands, although it needs clarifying. - Jorgath (talk) 18:32, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

- Three posts to Andy's block log for no effect - well done Keliana - in future take your time and stand by your decisions a bit more - I support Andy's unblock as you made it - both users unblocked - to unblock one is unfair - what Andy actually said in relation to this was, "Oppose, this attempt to involuntarily 'request an unblock on my behalf'. I have not requested an unblock, have accepted that my behaviour merited a block, and intended to accept the block without appeal. To use an involuntary unblock as 'fairness' to justify unblocking someone else seems to me to be highly questionable - and more so when the block has little time left to run, and this is supposed to 'balance' an unblock for a continuing refusal on Sceptre's part to conform to WP:BLP policy, and to cease using Misplaced Pages as a platform for a campaign to 'regender' Bradley Manning against Manning's own express wishes. Sceptre's continuing IDHT behaviour should be looked at on its own merits." - User:Sceptre is the primary problem here and he is unblocked. - Youreallycan 18:48, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I find that a highly disingenuous interpretation of the situation, Youreallycan. Andy was blocked for persistent incivility to Sceptre. Sceptre was topic-banned for various reasons, including the one that provoked Andy's incivility to Sceptre. Sceptre was then blocked for violating that ban in a way that they didn't realize was a violation: a highly civil conversation on Sceptre's own talk page in which Sceptre was showing signs of overcoming their previous IDHT problems. That topic ban still stands, even though Sceptre is unblocked. If Andy requests an unblock on his talk page, I have no problem with that, but he shouldn't have been unblocked based on this discussion. - Jorgath (talk) 19:02, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Change to topic ban

Hey, I'd like, for specificity, to request that the topic ban be limited to "edits to articles and talk pages relating to Bradley Manning's gender identity"; there's a whole bunch of questions here where the topic ban is vague:

Would I get blocked for editing Wikileaks or Julian Assange?
Would I get blocked again for replying to Arcadanum on my talk page?
Would I get blocked for referring to the content dispute? There are genuine issues with editor culture completely separate from the issue of Manning's gender identity, but which came up in the content dispute.

I would also ask kindly that an eye be kept on AndyTheGrump; obviously good faith BLP protection warrants a little leeway, but I am concerned that he's unable to contribute without living up to his username, which isn't conducive to improvement of the encyclopedia at all. Sceptre 19:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

In answer to your topic ban specificity question, no, I wouldn't support that. In answer to the three specific examples: 1) Yes. 2) The proper response is "I can't talk about that, I'm topic-banned." 3) Broadly construed, yes; if you want to talk about GID and LGBT in a way that in no way references Manning...maybe. In answer to the AndyTheGrump thing, he's serving out his block with dignity and class. If he says he can be civil from here on, we WP:AGF that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorgath (talk • contribs) 19:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Really? How is this difficult to grasp? Avoid discussing the content dispute, as that's inherently tied to Manning. And I'd suggest avoiding Wikileaks and Julian Assange to prevent any appearance of impropriety. Tread lightly if you want to continue editing LGBT & GID issues, as those are subjects you appear to have strong feelings about. Essentially, don't go near this subject at all, and you won't risk anything. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x2 Yeah, this. I'd advise that you go be a good editor in some completely unrelated area for a while (I mean like a year, not a week), and show that you can work well, on a regular basis, with people who disagree with you. Then maybe you might be able to request the topic ban be lifted. - Jorgath (talk) 19:31, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Re #3 -- if the part of "editor culture" you're referring to is "only editors who know transgendered people should be editing in this area", then the answer is "Yes". Otherwise, Jorgath's "maybe" holds.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:27, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not "editors who know transgender people", it's "editors who are aware of how transgender issues should be handled". Would you want a young earth creationist making edits to Evolution? Sceptre 19:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Sceptre, I strongly reccommend that you not pursue that question, or you will be repeating previously sanctioned behavior. Just - if it's in question at all whether it's under your ban, assume it is. Okay? - Jorgath (talk) 20:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

So long as that YEC adheres to our policies on verifiability and NPOV, without constantly trying to push a YEC opinion on various talk pages, sure. Further, it's highly presumptuous of you to assume your criteria of "how transgender issues should be handled" is the correct one. That is the source of this whole fracas. I'd suggest now is the time to drop the stick.— The Hand That Feeds You: 21:22, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd still think it'd be unwise for YECs to edit that page, because without an understanding of the topic, you can't really contribute to a topic. This applies everywhere, really. I think it's a no-brainer that, for such a sensitive topic as LGBT issues, you do need a quick 101: MOS:IDENTITY favouring a person's self-identity to others' perceptions of the identity is no accident, it reflects medical, academic, and journalistic manuals of style (even if journalists don't follow it that much). Sceptre 21:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

And this is the core of the problem: you arrogantly assumethe YEC has no knowledge of the subject. And I agree, following a person's self identity is important. And Manning has made no public statements on this matter. All we have are leaked private documents. That is not a source that allows us to unilaterally declare Manning has GID / is transgender. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:35, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Oppose loosening topic ban at this point, given that Spectre's agreement to the topic ban promptly violated it. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

When? -- Avanu (talk) 19:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Here. we're disregarding the sources by pretending that Manning never had issues with their gender identity.... specifically the quote "We do know Manning had not asked people to refer to him with a female pronoun". It's not the same as "We do know Manning had asked people not to refer to him with a female pronoun".... the discussion should be "Manning identified as female before being arrested, how should we treat that?" instead of "Does Manning identify as male or female?". --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:31, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - Yea - User:Sceptre - you are banned from anything related on any article and any talkpage related to Manning - if you discus the subject anywhere on wiki you will be blocked immediately - is that clear enough for you ? - I Support - topic banning you from any WP:BLP transgender edit/comment/discussion - as per you edit history /off wiki activism COI - Youreallycan 19:29, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

We don't issue superinjunctions around here; people are always allowed to say something like Jorgath's suggestion, "I can't talk about that, I'm topic-banned." when someone asks them about banned topics, and we permit people to come to noticeboards and ask for their bans to be loosened or removed. Nyttend (talk) 19:52, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed - User:Sceptre should email the banning admin or the highest committee if he has any questions regarding his topic ban - Youreallycan 20:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

@Nyttend: Actually I think at least ArbCom has issued at least one superinjunction, on User:PCPP. I'm not saying sure that regular admins should do the same, however. John Carter (talk) 21:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment - since SarekOfVulcan implemented the ban on Sceptre, he needs to be the one (and only one) making the clear statement of the scope and duration of the ban, as well as instructions or a link on appealing it at some future date if desired without violating the ban. I suggest that the specifics be posted here, on Sceptre's Talk page, and on the Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Special enforcement log page so that all editors are 100% clear on the scope and duration of the ban. -- Avanu (talk) 19:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Its indefinite- a lifetime ban - appeal only to the highest committee - Youreallycan 19:42, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

That is a matter for Sarek, not for anyone else, since he implemented it. The Ban was implemented as an exercise of Sarek's power as an Admin, and the particulars of it are governed by his will and interpretation of the consensus. -- Avanu (talk) 19:45, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Avanu, any time you'd like to read up on policy and figure out how things actually work around here, feel free. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:52, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

"figure out how things actually work around here"... isn't it clear? I mean its obvious, right? Nothing left to discuss, we just go on and on because things are so clear. :) OK, I get the joke......... -- Avanu (talk) 19:55, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Question is this request to find which articles and subjects are ok to edit, like flower arrangement is ok, but Mardi gras is a worry, or is it a specific attempt to ask how to WP:GAME the community by asking the rules ? Penyulap ☏ 20:20, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)
The former. The problem with "broadly construed" is that, someone may see the article List of transgender people as under the ban even if I'm not even thinking of anything related to Manning. Sceptre 21:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
I'd not consider that a violation, personally. And it would be harsh for an admin to block you for it. However; given that the problem at hand was specifically Manning, but generally topics of gender, you would probably be well advised to avoid that topic area. You committed some gross BLP violations in this case, for which we have had to limit you, and I still see a risk of you trying it again on another poor individual. --Errant 22:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment The gag order should be loosened. It's excessively officious and punitive. A user engaging in discussion on their own talk page, for example, about topics on which they're clearly well-informed, is hardly harmful to Misplaced Pages. Writegeist (talk) 20:50, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

What benefit is there to article content to allow a policy violating topic banned user to continue to freely discuss the issue on his talkpage? Youreallycan 20:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Youreallycan on this point. Users easily could turn their own talk page into a form of "hate blog" about things they don't like, and it would be possible to misrepresent that page as a "wikipedia page" so that some less-than-well informed persons might think that it actually is the equivalent of an article. Me, for instance. John Carter (talk) 21:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
I see it like an escape valve. People who are emotionally invested in an issue, want to discuss that issue. A broad topic ban invites chipping at the edges, and wikilawyering on article pages. Better to make the ban broad wrt article and article talk, while allowing some discussion in an area that will only be seen by those looking for it.--SPhilbrick (Talk) 11:27, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Oppose loosening of ban at this time, based on the comments of others of similar views above, particularly taking into account the speed with which the ban was apparently violated. John Carter (talk) 21:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Oppose The topic ban is not overly restrictive. Also throwing in a dig at another editor from the request is in bad taste. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:48, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Oppose - The restriction was clear. Wikilawyering it is bull. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:19, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Partial Support I support allowing discussion on user talk page. If that becomes a "hate blog" that permission can be revisited, but I think user should have broad leeway on the talk pages associated with their user name. However, I still support the "broadly construed" aspects of the topic ban in article and article talk pages.--SPhilbrick (Talk) 11:22, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
I oppose a weakening of the restriction (i.e. I don't see a reason for relaxing it on non-article pages), but I don't think there's a reason for interpreting it as covering topics such as "Wikileaks or Julian Assange" too. The problems that occurred were rather narrowly restricted to a biographical detail regarding the personality of B. M., and as such were quite unrelated to the political affair in which that person happened to be involved. Under this perspective, I don't see any problems with Sceptre editing Wikileaks or related stuff, and I don't believe the current wording of the restriction covers that. On the other hand, I would caution against turning to anything that might be seen as agenda editing on other transgender-related pages. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
I would like to know what "agenda editing on transgender-related pages" would be, as it has come up several times. Whereas the matter of Manning is something that can be debated, both from a source analysis perspective and an ethical perspective, for most trans BLPs it's clear cut: refer to them by their preferred gender and pronouns, treat them as human, et cetera, because it's unethical to act otherwise (and manuals of style for RSes agree on that) Sceptre 19:48, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- What it means, basically, is "don't push the issue." If a gendered-pronoun-change is completely uncontroversial, as in no one would dispute it at all, go ahead. But if even one person begins to dispute it with you, you must drop it. Period. If you're right, someone will sort it out. Actually...I'd be willing to take a look in such a situation. If it's all right with the community (especially SarekOfVulcan), the approved course of action could be "Sceptre disengages, neutrally informs Sarek and I of situation on our talk pages, and I try to evaluate content question fairly while Sarek reviews Sceptre's actions." This obviously would not apply to Bradley Manning-related edits, but to other transgender-related pages. I think I'm pretty good at NPOV in trans issues, and I think I satisfy Sceptre and Roux's previous requests that evaluating editors be familiar with trans issues. - Jorgath (talk) 20:54, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Unvanishing ScienceApologist

Resolved – Per WP:SNOW, unvanishing performed by 'crat WilliamH, leaving unarchived for now in case any comments are yet to come. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:25, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Arbcom case: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#ScienceApologist, which shows the first instance (that we know of) of sockpuppetry on 10 December 2011, EdJohnston logged it as 128.59.171.194 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Since then, numerous SPI cases have come up, including an active one now at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/ScienceApologist.

User:ScienceApologist (aka: User:VanishedUser314159) seems to have been granted a right to vanish around 2008, then it was taken away two days later, then there was a lot of redactions and gnashing of teeth, with a final WP:RTV granted around March 2011. Jpgordon indef blocked the vanished user on 4 March 2011.

It is clear that this user is not going to vanish. This means that all their past SPI cases and other edits are under a Vanisheduser name, courtesy blanked, which is inconvenient, at the very least. At this stage, after so many socks and opportunities, it appears that the courtesy vanishing should be taken back, and the full account restored, as the editor is clearly not acting in good faith and is continuing to be a disruption.

As a courtesy, I will be notifing those who may have been involved at an administrative level previously, including User:John Vandenberg, User:Steve Smith, User:EdJohnston and User:Nihonjoe. Feel free to notify anyone else that may have been involved previously.

Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Proposal that ScienceApologist be unvanished and the account be fully restored

Support as proposer. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support - SA still has the option of requesting unblock if he wants to return to normal editing. Apparenly he declines to do so. He should know that he can *either* edit or stay vanished but not both. More background on the recent socking can be found in Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/ScienceApologist/Archive. At present he uses a series of IPs (and probably one registered account, Hudn12 (talk · contribs)) to putter around with WP:FRINGE topics. His activity includes some edit warring on articles; he charges other people with socking, with apparently no sense of irony. EdJohnston (talk) 17:42, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support - and also for any other users with similar failed vanishing issues - like User:ChrisO . Good to see user User:Rlevse has done the correct thing - respect for that. Youreallycan 17:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support. The last time I had to look into this never-ending story I got RSI from all the clicking around. Ed, I don't think Joshua can understand irony; all the socking and the attendant split personality disorders take that out of a person. Drmies (talk) 17:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support - Wow, I didn't know he was still trolling about with IPs. That's clear breach of RtV. Sad thing is, I agreed with most of his points, but his methods were not tolerable in a collegial environment. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support - per EdJohnston point that the user can either be vanished or sock, but not both, and can request an unblock if he'd like to return to legiitmacy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:40, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support. Best way forward for all. Mathsci (talk) 20:44, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support per above, and likewise for similar vanished editors like ChrisO Minor4th 20:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support - Oh, and I won't hold my breath for an apology from people accusing me of gravedancing with this . Actually, come to think of it, just unblock him and let him edit since he seems to be able to do so anyway and people like Courcelles are determined to protect the userpages of abusive and unrepentant puppeteers. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 22:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Huh. That diff has certainly improved my opinion of Courcelles. Bishonen | talk 22:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC).

^^ Agree 100% with what the honorable "Bish" said ^^ Chedzilla (talk) 17:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

So why don't one of you unblock him? The block is totally meaningless anyway, he can edit whenever he likes. After all, an unrepentant "sockmaster" has again had his userpage "courtesy blanked". While we're at it, blank all sockmaster pages and unblock the lot. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 21:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Support Editor appears to have no intention of disappearing. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support. The vanished user provision does not provide impunity for unrepentant puppetmasters, especially those who have an ax to grind (see some of the above diffs, which indicate that SA/JWS/whatever his current name he is using will attack other sockmasters from new accounts. Pot, meet kettle, indeed Horologium (talk) 23:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Support (though a bit belated). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Question

What do you mean by "unvanished"? Changing VanishedUser314159's username to ScienceApologist? Nyttend (talk) 19:50, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's the short of it. Basically, re-establish his name, undo courtesy-blanking of pages relating to him, and adjust ArbCom pages to clearly reflect whom they are referring to (rather than the VanishedUser name). — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. As if he had never vanished. Requires a 'crat to accomplish. I don't think it requires a discussion at WP:AN, but I think that is the best way to handle these: one at a time, in full public view. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Completed

In light of the snowy nature of the above discussion, and the fact that the user's activity is well out of the scope of RTV, the user "VanishedUser314159" has been renamed to "ScienceApologist", and all the pages in the userspace have been moved over accordingly. WilliamH (talk) 00:17, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Bless your heart. SA is at least the third person to blatantly violate the vanishing policy that I know of, and the first one to have their vanishing properly undone for it. Sven Manguard Wha? 00:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken, only four hours has elapsed since this request has been initiated at ANI, making it very hard for large segments of the world to comment, and no comment from the accused. There is only one SPI allegation at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/ScienceApologist/Archive which didnt have a Checkuser result, but was basically determined to be WP:DUCK, and only one request at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/ScienceApologist, which was pending a checkuser result when you 'unvanished'. Why the urgency?? It doesnt appear that he has been editing a lot and causing lots of problems. arb user:AGK has now done the checkuser and concluded there is no technical data to support the socking allegation, but asserts WP:DUCK. user:Hudn12 has now been blocked as a sock by admin user:Dennis Brown, the same person who initiated the SPI and this unvanish request. John Vandenberg 01:22, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- The accused couldn't have commented anyway, as SA was indef blocked in March of 2011 for block evasion, which raises the question of why the vanishing was allowed to begin with. Yes, I filed the SPI and made the call to block based on duck evidence, after another editor, AGK confirmed my suspicions. Technically, I didn't have to go to SPI and could have just blocked him as a duck, but chose to stay in process and get a second opinion for good measure. CU was run during the change over, which was bad timing as everything hadn't updated so the results couldn't possibly be obtained properly, but a look at the IP addresses compared to previous, plus the contribs evidence, was clear enough to at least two of us. I didn't ask for the CU to prove the case, I asked to establish a record and find sleepers. As for bringing the case here, of course it would be someone like me who actually had to deal with vanished user cases at SPI more than once. No one who had never heard of the case would stumble across this otherwise. You're welcome to check my work if you think I've made a mistake, I don't have a problem with that at all. As to the amount of time spent here, that wasn't my call, so I can't really speak to that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:22, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I forgot to add: technically, there doesn't seem to be a requirement that I come to WP:AN to get a vote anyway. WP:RTV appears to be intentionally vague about this, indicating that whatever method that is appropriate, is appropriate. I chose to come here instead of asking a 'crat directly, to keep everything in full daylight, and notified you and others who were involved previously. This might have been quick (not my call), but everything has been in full daylight. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:29, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
  - If I may insert my $0.02 here, I feel you were quite right in keeping it in full daylight. It was quick, but that's because it was such overwhelming WP:SNOW. While I had no opinion on the unvanish request itself - I didn't feel I knew enough - the discussion and consensus seem clear enough to me. - Jorgath (talk) 06:09, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Courtesy blanking

I've courtesy-blanked some of the pages linking the ScienceApologist account to its owner's real-life identity. I don't think the "unvanishing" was really necessary; it feels a bit vindictive, but I don't oppose it since it will make it easier to address further sockpuppetry if it occurs. But we need to courtesy-blank the pages that link this account to its real-life owner. We've done this for editors far more abusive than SA. Our basic ethical principles include (or at least used to include) the idea that we don't use Misplaced Pages's online prominence to "punish" editors by damaging their real-life reputations, no matter how abusive their on-wiki behavior.

I feel strongly about this - strongly enough to protect the pages in question if there's edit-warring over the courtesy-blanking. This should not impact our ability to identify additional sockpuppets of SA, since the relevant details will be preserved in pages histories under the account's original name. MastCell 17:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm certainly not going to edit war with you MastCell, not my style after all. I can honestly say I have never have reverted an admin action, ever, without discussing and consent, which is more than was done here. Not sure why you would even bring that up. I didn't unblank them until after this AN discussion, after all. The goal wasn't because of being vindictive or trying to punish anyone, it was exactly as stated and within a process that isn't technically required but was done for the sake of being open about it. Since I am the one that unblanked them, you could have just asked me about it on my talk page. There is really no need for posturing here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I actually didn't look to see who had unblanked them, and my comment wasn't intended to be a shot at you personally. It was actually triggered by a discussion at User talk:ScienceApologist, in which another admin declined to blank the pages. I apologize if it came across as personal criticism of your actions. MastCell 19:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
  - Then I'm sorry if I came across overly defensive, as someone kindly pointed out I might be on my talk page. I started this AN discussion and proposal, the current SPI report, the last series of blocks and the page blanking. In this case, it might have been more fruitful to just approach me as the person most involved in this current round of affairs with your concerns and I would have likely just reverted them back myself. My actions in all this was based on procedure, not personal feelings, as someone who has had to dig through the archives to match up the socks, and wasn't aware of the potentially personal information involved. And for the record, I'm always open to criticism even if that doesn't apply in this instance, I just prefer my talk page as a starting point. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:34, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
    - Understood. No hard feelings, hopefully. MastCell 21:17, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
      - No harm, no foul, just a communications mixup. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability/2012 RfC

Resolved – Looks like all the concerns here have been dealt with. — Mr. Stradivarius 14:18, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I see the RFC on Verifiability language is fully protected, so that only administrators may edit it. Why is this? It makes it rather hard to opine on this alternative or that without the ability to save an edit... Carrite (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Only the main page is protected -- if you click the section edit link, you'll be editing a subpage, which isn't protected.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

If people are getting confused about the protection, then it's a good sign that we need to do more to draw it to people's attention. I've made a suggestion for a banner to go at the top of the RfC at the RfC talk page. If any admins agree and want to add it to the main RfC page, I would appreciate it. — Mr. Stradivarius 02:11, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree, and please do. It needs to be obvious. North8000 (talk) 11:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, the banner has now been posted on the RfC page. Just the watchlist notice to do now. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 23:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Watchlist notice

While we're on the subject of the verifiability RfC, would anyone object to advertising it using a watchlist notice? I made a suggestion for a notice over at MediaWiki_talk:Watchlist-details two days ago, but it has only received one reply so far. More input would be very welcome. — Mr. Stradivarius 02:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree, hope that somebody can do this. North8000 (talk) 11:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I, too, would like to urge that this be acted upon promptly. I think it's important for the entire community to know about it. A couple of days have already passed. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

PLEASE, somebody do this as quickly as possible. North8000 (talk) 19:42, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

The watchlist notice has now been added for 10 days by MSGJ. Thanks! — Mr. Stradivarius 14:18, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, MSGJ! --Tryptofish (talk) 15:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

"… on Twitter"

The problem

Interchangeable asked "Has there ever been a case like this, in which an article is simultaneously up for AfD and FAC? And is that allowed?".

The answer is that yes, we've had a few cases where featured articles, and DYK nominations, have been nominated for deletion. Bulbasaur (AfD discussion) (2nd AFD discussion) (3rd AFD discussion), for example. The subjects tend to be U.S./global popular culture and recentist. And the deletion nominations tend to share a taint of "How can this be on the main page as an example of our good work?", which isn't the remit of AFD. Procedurally, they can be knotty. But that's mostly the case when a new article that was too suddenly nominated for deletion without proper research being undertaken turns out to be a DYK candidate, and the AFD 7-day clock conflicts with the DYK clock.

That's not the case here. And what we have here is taking on all the signs of a problem that I've seen before, as possibly have many other administrators, years ago.

The problem here is a rash of "… on Twitter" articles written by editors who have quickly headed for DYK, GA, and FA, saying things like "this is the future of Misplaced Pages" along the way; a backlash against that by a sizeable subset of the community; and some rather wrongheaded disruptive point-making in the guise of superficially helpful attempts to extend things in absurd ways, such as the "new process" by Br'er Rabbit, and the various sarcastic (but not clearly to the casual reader) further article suggestions of others, some in the encyclopaedia proper, alas!. Witness List of Twitter users (AfD discussion), for example, which started as a deliberately absurd suggestion on a talk page, was created as an article, and which I've tried to turn around away from the absurd direction by pointing out that there was actually a prose article to be had, that was hidden in plain sight, once one ignored the absurdism.

The fact that people have already started using the "-cruft" suffix again, and otherwise parrot-voting with entirely rationale-free AFD discussion contributions, indicates that we're rapidly heading back to the days of the schools AFD discussions, if we don't start reining in the supporting-what-one-actually-opposes-to-absurd-extremes pointmaking (in the project and article spaces) and the policy-free arguments. We need to nip this in the bud.

Uncle G (talk) 13:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I've seen a lot of these "...on Twitter" articles, and I think the best solution is to "freeze" further action pending an RFC on the matter (neither AFD started, nor creation of such articles, nor initiating GAC/FAC) until we figure out if these are appropriate given that they do involve BLP issues as well. --MASEM (t) 14:39, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
This may be the first to deal with this. However, I know of several instances of former FAs that were listed for deletion and went through. Obviously, most of those were articles promoted to FA 7 or more years ago, in which FA (and Misplaced Pages) standards were far lower than they are now. --MuZemike 18:48, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
- There have been plenty of (at the time) current featured articles nominated for deletion, where the very placement on the main page has itself triggered the deletion nomination. But this case is indeed not the same as those. Uncle G (talk) 22:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
I don't mind these articles that much, largely as so far they've been created on clearly notable uses for Twitter and lots of work has gone into them. They're obviously better and easier to police than the drive-by articles on wrestling matches, football players, and high schools which constantly spring up. However, it would be helpful if the editors involved in writing these articles developed some kind of guidance (if only an essay, at least initially) on where the articles are justified and what they should and shouldn't cover. In the longer run, we're probably going to need something like Misplaced Pages:Notability (twitter accounts). Nick-D (talk) 00:43, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- I think it would better to expand the Misplaced Pages:Notability (web) guideline to include individual, notable social media pages of all kinds (not just Twitter) in the case of any social media platform rising and falling in popularity. — Moe ε 08:02, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- People are ignoring the notability criteria that we already have, in favour of their personal opinions of Twitter and the named celebrities. The problem isn't the lack of criteria. It's the unwillingness of editors to be objective about something that they like/dislike, and essentially rationale-free AFD contributions. It's also the mucking around in article space to make points. More notability criteria won't fix either of those. Uncle G (talk) 10:15, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

NOT FANSITE is not a like/dislike, but a policy based criterion. I would oppose such a page on anyone no matter how much I liked them without extraordinary evidence of real importance. DGG ( talk ) 01:36, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

- - I do think that if we freeze creation/deletion/promotion and figure out if and when these are appropriate, something can be written to prevent further poor AFD arguments. The results of those discussions may fall into a notability guideline. --MASEM (t) 20:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I've started a general discussion of the appropriateness of these types of articles here. --MASEM (t) 14:29, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Metricopolus

Not sure what's wrong with the user, but appears to just be reverting everything, including ClueBot. Aboutmovies (talk) 06:46, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Moved to ANI. Aboutmovies (talk) 06:51, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Blocked. CharlieEchoTango (contact) 06:56, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

user Marcus Qwertyus and Ohio

We are done here. --MuZemike 02:14, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Further information: Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/OSUHEY Charleta tavares (edit \| talk \| history \| protect \| delete \| links \| watch \| logs \| views) — copyright violation of copyrighted ("© The Ohio Senate") non-free content It has become increasingly frustrating to numerous people I know who have tried to update Ohio legislators here. Recently, I wrote a great article on Charleta tavares, who has been a prominent politician for many years. It's has been deleted numerous times by this person or a friend of his. While it is obvious that someone down the line harmed some stuff on wikipedia, the deletion of legislative articles, blocks, and reversions have made Ohios pages a mess. It also greatly upsets me that this person isnt even from Ohio and does not have an interest in improving these articles. Just deleting them. Why isnt there a more pragmatic approach? Much of these pages have been deleted or reverted to be incorrect. I am asking that either allow me to recreate the pages necessary under your guidance or at least for someone to take on the task themselves and stop Marcus Qwertyus' nonsense of deleting and reverting good edits and creations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.51.123 (talk • contribs) 2012-07-01T19:58:45 (UTC) Obvious ban-evading IP of OSUHEY. Please do not entertain any requests from this disruptive user. --MuZemike 21:34, 1 July 2012 (UTC) That's what I was thinking. Page in question is actually Charleta Tavares — Charleta tavares is about the same person, but it was created when she wasn't yet in the legislature, and the creator appears to have been unrelated to OSUHEY. Nyttend (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2012 (UTC) What is wrong with the created article? Look it over and you will see it is very credible. These politicians need to be listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.52.242 (talk) 01:13, 2 July 2012 (UTC) Also, I am not OSUHEY. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.52.242 (talk) 01:14, 2 July 2012 (UTC) The problem, IP user from New Jersey, is that they were created by a person named Ryan Monell with the username of OSUHEY; he got himself sitebanned for persistent copyright infringements. Even aside from the ban itself, these pages aren't safe to keep because so many of them are copyright infringements; one that doesn't appear so to be is likely to have been taken from a source that we simply haven't found. Nyttend (talk) 01:18, 2 July 2012 (UTC) But I recreated that page, and was blocked twice by Marcus Qwertyus, after the page was deleted. It does not make any sense to me that just because one person behaved poorly, the rest of us are punished. She is credible as are the others that were deleted and we are deprived of good articles because of this. Where else in life do we think this way, where if one person behaves improperly, then we just constantly delete anyone else's work with similar interest? I urge someone to take a more logical approach and reevaluate why we cannot update and create new articles on this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.52.242 (talk) 01:30, 2 July 2012 (UTC) You are not going to have anything to do with that article, do you hear me? Now leave. --MuZemike 02:12, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

We are done here. --MuZemike 02:14, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Further information: Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/OSUHEY

It has become increasingly frustrating to numerous people I know who have tried to update Ohio legislators here. Recently, I wrote a great article on Charleta tavares, who has been a prominent politician for many years. It's has been deleted numerous times by this person or a friend of his. While it is obvious that someone down the line harmed some stuff on wikipedia, the deletion of legislative articles, blocks, and reversions have made Ohios pages a mess. It also greatly upsets me that this person isnt even from Ohio and does not have an interest in improving these articles. Just deleting them. Why isnt there a more pragmatic approach? Much of these pages have been deleted or reverted to be incorrect.

I am asking that either allow me to recreate the pages necessary under your guidance or at least for someone to take on the task themselves and stop Marcus Qwertyus' nonsense of deleting and reverting good edits and creations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.51.123 (talk • contribs) 2012-07-01T19:58:45 (UTC)

Obvious ban-evading IP of OSUHEY. Please do not entertain any requests from this disruptive user. --MuZemike 21:34, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking. Page in question is actually Charleta Tavares — Charleta tavares is about the same person, but it was created when she wasn't yet in the legislature, and the creator appears to have been unrelated to OSUHEY. Nyttend (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

What is wrong with the created article? Look it over and you will see it is very credible. These politicians need to be listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.52.242 (talk) 01:13, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, I am not OSUHEY. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.52.242 (talk) 01:14, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

The problem, IP user from New Jersey, is that they were created by a person named Ryan Monell with the username of OSUHEY; he got himself sitebanned for persistent copyright infringements. Even aside from the ban itself, these pages aren't safe to keep because so many of them are copyright infringements; one that doesn't appear so to be is likely to have been taken from a source that we simply haven't found. Nyttend (talk) 01:18, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

But I recreated that page, and was blocked twice by Marcus Qwertyus, after the page was deleted. It does not make any sense to me that just because one person behaved poorly, the rest of us are punished. She is credible as are the others that were deleted and we are deprived of good articles because of this. Where else in life do we think this way, where if one person behaves improperly, then we just constantly delete anyone else's work with similar interest? I urge someone to take a more logical approach and reevaluate why we cannot update and create new articles on this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.52.242 (talk) 01:30, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

You are not going to have anything to do with that article, do you hear me? Now leave. --MuZemike 02:12, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

AfD backlog

Due to a problem with toolserver, The outstanding AFD log was not updated for two days, which means 22 June and 23 June are not showing, although June 24 now is. I cleared off 22 June apart from a few that I was involved in, but there are still quite a few at 23 June. I'll try to clear these tomorrow (it's 1:40am here), but if anyone's bored in the meantime...

I manually fixed the creation of the AfD page that was missed for July 4, and will keep an eye on that. Black Kite (talk) 00:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Note

Special:Contributions/Mybcd

I know COI-named accounts has been discussed back n forth, but not sure how things ended up. So I thought I'd note it here for someone more knowledgeable. - jc37 03:29, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Softerblocked. The place to report usernames like this, which are names of companies or groups, is WP:UAA. JohnCD (talk) 09:38, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Calvin999 and User talk:AndyTheGrump

At the moment we are trying to draft some new blocking policy for editors who use their own talkpage while blocked, and I was wondering if anyone could offer some guidance at Misplaced Pages talk:Blocking policy on what is ok and what is not ok, there seems to be some confusion. Penyulap ☏ 06:41, 2 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Downloading large numbers of pictures

I'm working on a project that will require me to download large amounts of pictures from Misplaced Pages. I've been trying to find some advice about the best way to do this without breaking any Misplaced Pages rules or guidelines, but have had no response to my question on the help desk. I have heard that using Wikix is the best way to do this, but some people have reported being blocked from Misplaced Pages by using the utility. There is one such example here. Can anyone here advise me on whether using Wikix is allowed? And if it is allowed, are there any restrictions on download speed or time of day? Thanks,Nozzleberry (talk) 11:41, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Let me ask what sort of numbers your talking about...a couple hundred or a couple thousand? IS there a certain category or filter your using to determine which ones you want? That might help to get a better idea of how best it can be done. Kumioko (talk) 19:10, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Extra Inter language links

Please look at Inter language links part of Harrier Jump Jet article. Is it true?Gire 3pich2005 (talk) 16:16, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes as many other wikis have several articles on the Harrier and it's different versions all linking to this one article here. NtheP (talk) 16:26, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Crazy server lag

Up to 1,559 seconds. Who broke it? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:07, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

See WP:Village pump (technical)#Database lag. Dougweller (talk) 17:41, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Chronic Spammer

While patrolling WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology I reverted a spam edit by 115.111.32.134. When I visited their talkpage to leave them a notice of the action, I discovered that they have been warned repeatedly about spamming. I have two questions:

Is this the appropriate place to address this issue? And
Do I need to do anything else?

Kthapelo (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:AIV is the place for quick reports about obvious spam accounts. DMacks (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I just reverted several questionable links he inserted regarding for-profit business colleges. See and . 81M (talk) 01:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Leontopodium alpinum

Moved from WP:RFPP – This discussion should be archived somewhere. Armbrust, B.Ed. _{The Undertaker 20–0} 05:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Unprotection: This page does NOT need protection. zzuuzz was asked to remove protection and refused to help. Unlike many of the editors involved, I do not have problem with IP editors or assume they are the bad guys. I want them to be able to contact me. This protection was instigated by a small number of overzealous editors continuously reverting an IP and agitating it in the process. The original edit was not even a personal attack as they put, although it was a bit harsh. Editors causing this problem need to read WP:DENY. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 17:55, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

To elaborate on the comment recently on my talk page, as with all my actions any admin is welcome to adjust the protection as they see fit. If you've seen the proxy-hopping trolls, both(?) ANI threads, and the edit frequencies then you're not missing much. My reasons for protection remain unchanged, so I won't be doing it myself. -- zzuuzz 18:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Leon should do what I do and what the rules recommend: create a separate, non-protected pseudo talk page where IP's can "contact him", as he puts it. The "contacting" in this case is nothing more than a personal attack on another editor, and is not appropriate for Leon's talk page. And Leon's insistence keeping the attack there raises suspicions about his own alleged "good faith". The WP:DENY stuff is wrong-headed. You don't "deny" trolls by leaving their garbage untouched - you deny them by preventing them from posting. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I would say that the suspicions arise more from you wikistalking my edits and canvassing your pal Dave1185. You caused this whole problem by reverting edits multiple times that are really not personal attacks, and that's true no matter how many time you claim otherwise. Please refrain from adding your opinion unnecessarily, as you are not an admin. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 14:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I have asked Dave to comment here. If he doesn't care, I don't care. If he does care, then your page should remain protected, so as to "deny" the trolls as you say. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

This is a nice idea from you, but unfortunately for you or Dave1185 to "care" or not or what you think about what should happen to my talk page are not necessary or relevant. Please do refrain from your own agitation. Thanks for stopping by. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 02:13, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

You are under the mistaken impression that you "own" your talk page. You don't. If you allow incivility against others to remain on your page, you are approving of that incivility. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

You are under the mistaken impression that your opinion is necessary or appropriate to add to this discussion. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 05:30, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

As this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit everyone's opinion is appropriate and even necessary any/everywhere. Can someone sort out these facts for me. Based on this edit history Leontopodium alpinum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log);

La has minimal edits to article space - four although I may have miscounted.
La went around bestowing barnstars to those who complained about Dave1185's alleged incivility. So, per AGF they disapprove of such "personal attacks" occurring on WikiP. YET
They are perfectly happy for "personal attacks" against Dave1185 to be added to - and remain - on their talk page. The term "tag and bag" used for socks who have already betrayed the communities trust is far less offensive then the post about Dave1185 added by various IPs (and that alone should raise red flags of various sizes and vivid colors) to La's talk page.

As Bugs correctly state if La is here as someone who want to edit constructively then they can "create a separate, non-protected pseudo talk page where IP's can "contact him"" other wise can we please apply WP:NOTTHERAPY - among several others - and end this drama. MarnetteD | Talk 05:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

You warp facts to fit the agenda of you and your friends. This has nothing to do for the actual comment left on my talk page, although I strongly disparage your view that it was a personal attack. If you think this is personal attack the you skin is far, far to thin for Misplaced Pages. It is clearly not a personal attack. Dave 1185 and his pals are simply trying to keep the Wiki clean of criticism of his actions.

The number of edits I have made does not matter: WP:DONTBITE. Of course I thank people that took the reasonable position in a long argument. Oh, and Dave1185 did the same thing.
You are grossly misstate what I am asking. I am not interested at all with this request to anything with the original edit on my page. I never mentioned it here. Good attempt, but again you do not tell the truth about this request. I am only demanding that my own talk page be unprotected.
You do not have a neutral opinion in this matter and should recuse yourself from the discussion. You were part of the Dave1185 clique that caused this problem by constant revert to my talk page.
If you wish to so nakedly have a personal agenda outside of the actual discussion please be a little more clever about disguising it. Bugs does not correctly state anything, and neither do you. You two are part of why there is a drama at all. If you had left it alone the page would never have needed protection and a mildly annoying comment (but NOT personal attack) would not have created the problem this IP wanted. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 12:48, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Your screed proves my point. BTW we have both Misplaced Pages:Attack page and Misplaced Pages:NPA as policies that should be remembered in this situation. Oh and I am not part of any clique. MarnetteD | Talk 16:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

No, you are completely and embarrassingly wrong on all counts. Recommend you review the literature and Misplaced Pages policies before making any further comments. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Marnette has had an account here for 7 years, whereas you've had an account for 7 months. So there's a good chance that his/her knowledge of the rules is better than yours. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:37, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I note that Leon has removed the semi-protected flag from his page. That doesn't actually affect anything. The semi remains in effect until the 13th, at this point. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:43, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

It should also be noted that although Leon does not approve of a message being removed from their talk page they have no problem with removing them from other another editors talk as can be seen here and MarnetteD | Talk 15:45, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Once again you are kilometers from the correct mark here. Removing a comment from my page 1. Not what this is about 2. Not something I ever opposed. I spoke against you and your pals edit-warring and agitating an IP on my talk page, not against the comment being removed. And you are most certainly not comparing removing my own comments from a page to this, because even that would too nakedly reveal your agenda and bias in this situation. Please do sit this one out unless you have something valid to contribute. You are acting as the "garbage truck", as your buddy Dave1185 likes to say. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 16:56, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Uninvolved admin here. I have been reviewing this situation, and come to the following conclusions:

The removal of personal attacks and the protecting of the page were entirely appropriate
Therefore the request for removal of protections is declined
Leon is reminded that this is an encyclopedia and that everything else is secondary to that goal. It's July, and you have made but 3 edits to actual articles this year. And no, it's not "biting" to say so, merely a reminder of what it is we are supposed to be doing here which all of you involved in this should take to heart
As a show of good faith from all concerned I would ask you all to voluntarily topic ban yourselves from interacting with "the other side" in this conflict. There is an evident pattern of a long-term problem here going back several months. Continuing to have any contact at this point is only going to antagonize the other parties.
This matter should now be considered closed. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:51, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

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