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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Deuar (talk | contribs) at 19:33, 26 April 2006 (→Liberate vs. Take). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

An entry from Battle of the Dnieper appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 25 April, 2006.

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Okay, the V1 of this page is finally there. It can and should be improved: To do:

• Proofread!!! (you can help!!!)
• The article's connexions with other parts of WW2 series is unclear. 1943 battle of ukraine does not even exist and battle of Kiev is a little more than a stub based on a video game (!!!). Ultimately, I shall expand both, but it will take some time.
• The attack map is under construction, but it will take me some time to finish it. Found an OK one on the web...

So I put the article in Misplaced Pages anyway, especially since it's a little more than a stub anyway, even as of now ... ^_^ Grafikm_fr 00:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Hitler's Motives

Quoted: Mid-August, Hitler understood that the Soviet offensive could not be contained - at least, not until some internal disagreement would break up among the Allies. Considering all this, he decided to buy time by constructing a series of fortifications to slow down the Red Army and demanded the Wermacht to defend its positions on the Dnieper at all costs

This gives Hitler a reasonable amount of credit as a strategist. Given only the bare facts (I've not studied this), it seems reasonable to suggest that Hitler was merely trying to hold onto conquered territory at all costs (he had refused to allow retreats on several other occasions). Does the scholarship suggest otherwise? Won't change till someone knowledgeable rings in.Skanar

Bad math?

Infobox says 1.2 million soviet casualties and a high estimate of 1.5 million axis casualties. yet the article says there were more than 3 million casualties on both sides? Borisblue 10:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Because somebody else edited it. I don't sleep enough at the moment <_< -- Grafikm_fr 15:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

coriolis force myth

It is claimed that the right bank of the Dnieper is higher due to the coriolis force. This is untrue. (e.g. compare to a river near you). Sure, the right bank of the Dnieper is generally higher because it tends to curve to the right. However, this curving is caused by local geology and most certainly not by the Coriolis force. This reminds me of the common coriolis force myth that water draining from a sink spirals differently in the northern and southernm hemisphere. Come on. Try it with different tap positions, instead. Deuar 13:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The Don has a right bank steeper than the left and it curves the other way (look at a map). The Volga has (as in Volgograd ). The Dnieper has. The Danube has (as in Budapest). Siberian rivers like Ob' and Ienissei too. It's all local features? It's just because the river next to you is small. This being said, the thing of sink spirals is fake, I agree. -- Grafikm_fr 15:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, finally found the name of the law, it's called Baer-Babinet' Law (some more info here) -- Grafikm_fr 16:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've looked at a map, and the Don actually has a very similar shape to the Dnieper (curves the same way), remarkably so, actually. Were you thinking about a particular small part of it that curves the other way? The particular river I was thinking about is the Vistula. I think this is a good example because 1) it is also on the eastern European plain 2) it is also a large river (~1000 km long and wide), and 3) it has an upper part which curves to the left (with higher banks on the left), and a lower part which largely curves to the right (with higher banks on the right). The obvious explanation for the height of banks is that the river's flow tends to erode the inside of curves. This is an almost completely universal feature of riverbanks both on large and small scales. It is also responsible for meanders. I would think that this effect is many orders of magnitude stronger than the coriolis force. On small scales, rivers erode the outside of curves because the water flows faster on the ouside of a curve (check out a meandering river near you), but on large scales, say a hunderd km, the valley tends to go where the underlying soil or rock is softest.

OOps! just fixing a silly error - steep banks are on the outside of a curve. Doesn't change the argument that the coriolis force is too weak compared to other effects, though.Deuar 08:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I had a look at that reference at www.sentex.net, but it's not very trustworthy to say the least. For one it seems to claim that the Great Lakes and other lakes on the Canadian shield were formed by sea currents. What a load of rubbish! The surface of that whole region is known to have been scoured by glacial movements during the last (and earlier) ice ages, which is what caused the depressions that became lakes. For another, it is a creationist website, so you can expect a whole pile of crazy crank theories when it comes to geology, because their underlying agenda is to actually discredit geology so they can claim that the world was recently created in 6 days by a biblical God. Excuse me while I nauseate ;-p

In any case, it claims that river valleys were eroded by ocean currents caused by the uplift of land, and that these currents were deflected by the coriolis force causing e.g. south flowing rivers to curve west. Well ok the Dnieper and Don do, but what about all the rest? look at an atlas! The Volga doesn't do it, the Danube doesn't do it, the Dniester doesn't do it, ... Also, how fast would this land have to rise up to make currents that can sculpt a river valley? All out of the sea in a day, or a week. Sounds like a 6 day creation story again. That just doesn't happen. While it would be cool if riverbanks were sculpted by the coriolis force, it's just not plausible (the coriolis force is too weak compared to normal erosion), and it's not seen in practice.

I agree that the rivers you mentioned appear to show an interesting trend, but I just don't think its the coriolis force. How long is the part of the Ob and Ienissei that has a steeper right bank? Also - sure, the Danube in Budapest has a steep right bank - but that's because there is a mountain range there on the right bank! This is a completely different situation to the Dnieper. Deuar 19:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to find a reasonable explaination for the bluffs, or perhaps just leave out an explaination for their existance. I will try to research this a bit, but I am also skeptical that Coriolis could account for it, it's just too minor a force compared to the normal erosion and deposition caused by river meander. MarcusGraly 19:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

What causes river bluffs is diffrences in the erodability of deposits, Much of Ukraine is Loess, which is a wind blown very soft fertile soil, (which is why Ukraine historically was the Bread Basket of Russia). I imagine the Dnieper bluffs are some harder formation possibly Sandstone, or limestone, I'm not sure, but as the river cut through the sorfter loess, leaving the harder bluffs exposed. This is how river bluffs are formed. see for example. For now, I am removing the coriolis link. If someone wants to reaserch fmore completely the geological history of the Dneiper Bluffs, that could be added to the article. MarcusGraly 19:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

More more thing, I know this is Military History and not Geology, but simply erosion and deposition is not going to cause bluffs by itself, it will cause meander bends and oxbow lakes ad the like, but you need more, (like the stronger rocks I mentioned,) to create bluffs. I'm not sure if there are true bluffs on the Dneiper or just a steeper bank. If it's just a steeper bank, then that could be the rsult of the curvature of the river. MarcusGraly 19:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, I found a different link: here (part named "Baer's law (1860)")

Geology has change a lot since 1860. I'm not saying Baer is wrong, I would just like a more modern source confirming this before we put it back in the article. My brother's a Geologist, I'll ask him about it. MarcusGraly 20:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

see this artice for one:] MarcusGraly 20:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Liberate vs. Take

"Liberate" is loaded for sure, but so is "take." Let's find a neutral word that is accurate (I don't know enough about this to do it myself...). Perhaps "advanced to" or "moved" to the other side of the river. How about "Kiev Campaign"? Or "Battle for Kiev"? NPOV, please. PatrickFisher 11:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

"Took up position" on the far side of the river? PatrickFisher 11:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

What is wrong with "liberate"? A country liberates its own territory. We are not talking about Poland or Romania here, for instance, where this word could be discussed because of its political implications. Kiev was part of Soviet Union in 1941. -- Grafikm_fr 15:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, ironically I think 'liberate' may be the least POV term to use. We would not hesitate to write that French forces helped to 'liberate' Paris in Aug 1944. If the Germans were the agressor (and hopefully we can all agree on that) then 'liberate' seems to be a reasonable term. If the real issue here is the nature of the Soviet regime, let's be honest about that. It's a POV. DMorpheus 16:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

"Liberation" is definitely a term from the Soviet propaganda.

The Soviet occupation was as bad for the Ukrainian people as the Nazi one. The "liberation" resulted in one more famine in 1946.

Please follow the NPOV policy and use neutral terms.

What is wrong with the word "take"? The opposite POV word would be "occupation". "Take" or "retake" is neutral and reflect merely a fact.--AndriyK 16:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Whether you want it or not (and as I can see, you don't) Ukraine was part of USSR in 1941 when Germany invaded it. When a country invades another, it is occupation, when you get your territories back, it is liberation. One uses liberation for Paris in Aug '44, why not for Kiev? -- Grafikm_fr 16:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Ukraine was under Soviet occupation before 1941 does not mean that it was liberated in 1944. This was reoccupation if you want to be precise. But I prefer to use neutral terms.

There is a crucial difference between Kiev and Paris. Nobody would object that Paris is a French city. Soon after the Nazis were pushed away, French Government took the control over the city and, the most important, people of Paris and of whole France had soon an opportunity to elect their government.

In contrast, Ukrainian city Kiev was controlled by the Soviet (in effect Russian) government untill 1991. The first free presidential elections took place in the same year.

There is no reason to speak about liberation of Kiev 1944. This was definitely a reoccupation.--AndriyK 17:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

1) What you say here is 10000 times more POV than the term you suggest to suppress. And as I can see from your talk page, it is not the only article...

2) Before 1917, Ukrain was part of the Russian Empire. It was occupation too?

3) "Occupation" is even more POV than liberation. If you suggest a really NPOV term such as "took control of" or something like that, fine. If not and if you're just making pro-Ukrainian propaganda, then no. -- Grafikm_fr 17:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

1) We discuss here the article Battle of the Lower Dnieper, not my talk page. This is not the only article because there are too many Russian/Soviet POV-pushers at this wiki.

2) Yes, it was an occupation too.

3)I do not propose to use "occupation" in the article. Some people consider this as occupation some - as liberation. There may be different POVs. But the WP articles should stick at NEUTRAL POV. Neither "occupation" nor "liberation" is appropriate in this case.

I agree with your suggestion to use "take (or retake) control of".

Don't you object if I correct the text according to your suggestion?--AndriyK 17:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay for "retake control of" or something in that tune. You can change the page if you want. -- Grafikm_fr 17:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

All victors use the term liberated when you retake something that has belonged to you. And this is wrong " occupation was as bad for the Ukrainian people as the Nazi one" that is wrong. First there were no extermination camps, and the land had been boomed to piceses, the nazies during their occupation took all the food from the soviets and left them with nothing. You cant regrow crops when you have nothing to seed and the land has been destroyed.(Deng 19:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC))

We have stick at neutral POV not at POV of the Soviets (victors).

The Nazi occupation was bad indeed, but the Soviet one was not better. There was no famine during the Nazi occupation, they did take the food but not not "all the food"/ I do not know what sources you use.--AndriyK 19:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The term "liberation" is used in the Western literature to describe the Red Army advances not just in Ukraine, but even in Poland. And no one is talking about Lviv liberation in connection of '39 events. That was no a liberation in any way. '44-'45 events is a different story. I am still waiting for AndriyK doing the first non-revert edit for weeks or so. Probably, I am out of luck. --Irpen 19:11, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Not all western authors stick at neutral POV as wikipedians should.--AndriyK 19:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, your neutrallity has become legendary, AndriyK. --Irpen 19:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it is clear where you stand when you say "The Nazi occupation was bad indeed, but the Soviet one was not better" because you are dead wrong and that remark shows that you do not know what happened during the Soviet time the population of Ukraine didnt fall but I did fall during the Nazi occupation. And the Soviets only took back what belong to them. If you say "The Nazi occupation was bad indeed, but the Soviet one was not better" then it is clear that you dont know what you are talking about. (Deng 19:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC))

I find the suggestion that just because "western" literature says something then it is correct to be laughable. Indeed, using "liberation" to refer to Red Army advances in Eastern Europe (Poland, Romania, I don't know enough about Ukraine) just shows that many western authors don't have a clue. Although sure the Soviet occupation of say Poland was much better than the Nazis'. They only killed about 1% of the population instead of 20%! Deuar 19:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)