Talk:James Fetzer - Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SineBot (talk | contribs) at 01:47, 31 July 2012 (Signing comment by 108.35.40.94 - "→This is not trivial: "). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 01:47, 31 July 2012 by SineBot (talk | contribs) (Signing comment by 108.35.40.94 - "→This is not trivial: ")(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Biography

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	An appropriate infobox may need to be added to this article. Please refer to the list of biography infoboxes for further information.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Philosophy: Philosophers / Science / Contemporary Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Misplaced Pages.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Associated task forces:
/
	Philosophers
	Philosophy of science
	Contemporary philosophy

The following Misplaced Pages contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

Jfetzer (talk · contribs) / Fetzer, James H. Fetzer, James H.

Jfetzer@d.umn.edu (talk · contribs) / Fetzer, James H. Fetzer, James H.

71.98.0.27 (talk · contribs) / Fetzer, James H. Fetzer, James H.

71.10.71.209 (talk · contribs) / Fetzer, James H. Fetzer, James H.

JimFetzer (talk · contribs) / Fetzer, James H. Fetzer, James H.

James H. Fetzer (talk · contribs) / Fetzer, James H. Fetzer, James H.

71.90.33.155 (talk · contribs) / Fetzer, James H. Fetzer, James H.

184.60.4.73 (talk · contribs) / Fetzer, James H. Fetzer, James H.

This article was nominated for deletion on August 23, 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Nominated for Deletion

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/James H. Fetzer Morton devonshire 22:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I simply don't see any basis for wanting to delete this article. While it's not meticulously footnoted, Fetzer's most outrageous statements (wanting a military coup) are footnoted. Further, I'm fairly familiar with him and his work, and don't see any errors.

Maybe Fetzer is the sort of fellow who shouldn't be important enough to merit an entry, but his central role in the 9/11 U.S. government conspiracy movement means that he is in fact sufficiently important. -- John McAdams

Occupation

So Fetzer, you a philosopher or not? --Sloane 20:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

So Wiki editors are so incompetent they don't even know if I am a professional philosopher? No wonder this comes across as a disinfo op. I add citations where they are noted as "missing" in the entry, but they are deleted by one of these biased editorial hacks. I can't believe anyone retains any respect for Misplaced Pages at all in the case of controversial figures like me.184.60.4.73 (talk) 19:48, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

And when I add that I was appointed a Distinguished McKnight University Professor in 1996, which is my highest academic accomplishment, it is immediately deleted, even though I cited my curriculum vitae (which is a legal document) and it could be easily verified by going to the University of Minnesota web site, where I am listed (http://www.research.umn.edu/advance/distinguished.html). I get the impression that, when it comes to controversial issues or controversial subjects, Wiki is some kind of amateur hour. I find this disgusting.184.60.4.73 (talk) 20:37, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

Drop the indignation. You have edited edited under multiple accounts and ISPs over six years and apparently have never attempted to familiarize yourself with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines regarding sourcing that have been provided to you on multiple occasions. You appointment was included in a massive edit that included a dozen other citations referencing sources that are generally considered unreliable for Misplaced Pages purposes (e.g. Amazon, YouTube, self-published sources, etc.). When the bathwater is that dirty, sometimes the baby gets thrown out with it. On this point, Tgeairn has reinserted the information with a proper a secondary source.

In Misplaced Pages, you are the editorial hack. If you do not care to familiarize yourself with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, STOP editing the article (per Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest) and post on this talk page specifically what you would like added or removed from the article. I think you'll it to be more productive than complaining or asserting that we are part of a conspiracy to spread disinformation. Location (talk) 00:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

No, he's completely right "anonymous user" asking him to drop the righteous indignation. It is clear what segments were deleted from his biography and they lead any reasonably prudent person to the unequivocal conclusion that you are the one trying to discredit Jim Fetzer, not vice-versa. Misplaced Pages main staff better check into this article and the editors -- they are settlers wives in the West Bank, we all read that article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.40.94 (talk) 00:56, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

"conspiracy theorist"

Going forward, we cannot label them in the lead with pejorative labels. You can after call them a conspiracy theorist, if such a statement/observation is sourced, but not in the lead at all. Also, you need to say "Is considered a conspiracy theorist by xyz", not doing that is a violation of original research policies as well, by playing a "Connect the dots" game to try to bypass the no original research rules, as some might say. See also WP:LIVING. rootology (T) 15:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, wikipedia, per Jimbo Wales, WILL AGRESIVLY remove ANY endorsment of negative lables on living persons, IGNORING 3rr. --Striver 18:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Negative terms which are properly sourced are allowed. -Will Beback 23:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

No. Period. Misplaced Pages does not endorse any negative or pejorative terms. It will however report on specific people doing so, if they are notable. --Striver 23:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Sloane, STOP with your blatant violation of wikipedia policy! --Striver 23:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Striver, please cite the policy language on which you are basing your statement. -Will Beback 01:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Here you go: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons: " The responsibility for justifying controversial claims in Misplaced Pages, of all kinds, but especially for living people's bios, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim."

in other words, wikipedia will not endorse the controversial and peojorative claim of labeling him a Conspiracy_ theorist.--Striver 17:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Your conclusions do not follow from the text. That text means that the editors who add the information are the responsible parties should the subjects wish to file a lawsuit. That is the same for every word we write on Misplaced Pages. It does not mean that Misplaced Pages refuses to publish properly sourced informaiton, no matter how derogatory. -Will Beback 19:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

You are wrong. --Striver 20:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not mind be described as a "conspiracy theorist", even though "conspiracy realist" would fit better. What I mind is that my obvious improvements to my entry, all of which are properly sourced, are being deleted and reverted to the original inferior version on the basis that I made them. But they are all true and they are all verifiable. This is hack work by biased editors and should not be allowed to stand. Surely someone at Misplaced Pages has integrity and stands for truth and objectivity, which some of the editors here are denying me. This is ridiculous and even obscene.184.60.4.73 (talk) 19:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

ONE CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN INTERNET ENCYCLOPEDIA OF ANY REPUTE WHEN THERE IS EVIDENCE IN THIS TALK HISTORY THAT WIKIPEDIA EDITORS HAVE EDITED THIS ARTICLE FOR THE PURPOSES OF SUPPRESSING INFORMATION AND CENSORSHIP NOT POLITICALLY PLEASING TO THEM. DR. FETZER HAS PUBLISHED NEARLY 30 BOOKS, 5 OF WHICH DEAL WITH CONSPIRACY THEORIES. WIKIPEDIA HAS CHANGED HIS ENTRY FROM AMERICAN PHILOSOPHER AND CONSPIRACY THEORIST TO PRIMARILY CONSPIRACY THEORIST AND RETIRED PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR. ACCURACY COUNTS: WHY USE WIKIPEDIA WHEN IT IS SUBJECT TO POLITICAL CENSORSHIP? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.40.94 (talk) 00:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I Withdraw the Nomination

At the request of my Wiki-friend SkeenaR, and in deference to Professor Fetzer, I withdraw the nomination. I bid you peace. Morton devonshire 20:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/James H. Fetzer

The result of this AfD discussion was keep. (aeropagitica) (talk) 05:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not trivial

There is no "apparent endorsement" of an overthrow. Please choose words carefully. SkeenaR 06:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Now wait a minute. Take a look at Professors of Paranoia -- are you saying he didn't say what they reported in that article? Morton devonshire 06:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"Let me tell you, for years, I've been waiting for there to be a military coup to depose these traitors" does not in anyway suggest an endorsement of such an action.(not that it's hard to understand how that could be misconstrued) I'm waiting for bills in the mail, that does not mean that I desire them. If it was clear that was what he meant, I would support inclusion of that in the proper context, but it's just not there. It may be debatable, but it shouldn't be stated in such a manner. SkeenaR 06:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh please, read the rest. He clearly states that he'd like to see an overthrow of the US government.--Sloane 10:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

USER SLOAN IS A ZIONIST HASBARA SHILL AND SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO EDIT WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.35.40.94 (talk) 01:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't "oh please" me. I'm not going to edit war with you about it. I agree he wishes someone else would form the government, and may be surprised that this government is still in ofice, but his statements do not indicate endorsement of a military coup. Have it your way, which in my view is libelous. SkeenaR 22:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Look, you're a pedant, and Fetzer is a Jew-hater. On Press TV in the UK today - September 2nd 2011 - he said that the Israelis were behind 9/11. The man is a complete fool. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.186.22.243 (talk) 21:34, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Rather than fight about it, let's cite some sources. Morton devonshire 05:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

More ridiculous crap from editors here. I am not "a Jew hater" and there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that I am. I am an anti-Zionist, but that does not even arise in my entry. Clearly some hack editor is going after me with a meat ax because of issues he has misunderstood. The same standards of verifiability should apply to editors. This guy should have nothing to do with my entry.184.60.4.73 (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

There is ample evidence that Israel was involved in 9/11. See the book by Christopher Bollyn (on line), articles by Alan Sabrosky (on line), the web site, Rediscover911.com (on line), and the article, "Israel did 9/11: All the proof in the world!" That someone so ignorant or biased should have a role on Misplaced Pages is completely outrageous. He violates every principle for which Wike claims to stand.184.60.4.73 (talk) 19:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

All the Fetzer edited boxes...

Is there a template we can use to get those all into one box? rootology (T) 06:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. I just added another one. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:17, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Unclear sentence

The sentence

In July 2006, Fetzer discussed Bill O'Reilly's remark that, if Kevin Barrett had been at his alma mater, Boston University, he would have been found "floating face down in the river", stating, "When public threats can be made to a citizen's life for expressing his opinions on a controversial topic and neither the government nor the media respond, that is a sure sign we are living in a fascist state

has unclear meaning.

CT

Where in this article is he called a CT? --Striver 17:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The title. --Sloane 19:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Balance

There has been some crude anti-Fetzer POV inserted on this page, and I have reverted some of it myself. However, that does not mean this page should be Fetzer's soapbox. Fetzer's work on "computer science" is controversial to say the least. Leslie Lamport's take on it is that "philosophers, not having any objective foundation to their work, can achieve success only by becoming masters of rhetoric." Leibniz 11:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This is completely absurd. I was even invited to contribute to two encyclopedias of computers science and information processing. Taking the view of a partisan--who clearly does not understand the issues--and citing him here is preposterous. This is one more reason to question the judgment and competence of some of Wiki's editors. This post is a complete atrocity.184.60.4.73 (talk) 20:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

cell phones

Removed this statement. He may not have explicitly referenced it in this interview, but studies regarding cell phone connectivity in the air have been well documented throughout the movement. He is far from the only person to have referenced these studies.

Removed unencyclopedic sentence

"Many of Fetzer's claims are spurious, unsubstantiated speculations. "

Whoh there! If this claim is to be made it needs to be put in some else's mouth, not Misplaced Pages's.

Straussian 09:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed that when it comes to any controversial topics about the actions of the US Government, Misplaced Pages shows enormous bias in the same manner as the mainstream media propaganda machine that is controlled by the same big money that stages wars for profit. America is in serious trouble, but the sheep still haven't awakened. -- Signed, A Patriotic American who is unafraid to question the government. This, rather than getting into wars to make money, is the highest form of patriotism, but we have forgotten the principals of the founding fathers and have embraced the destruction of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Sad times for the USA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.161.179 (talk) 04:01, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I have sourced every claim I have made. Surely Wiki's role is to determine whether or not I have made the claims I have made, not to arbitrate their truth. This has gone beyond completely ridiculous into pure absurdity.184.60.4.73 (talk) 20:02, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

YouTube Links

Info icon

This article is one of thousands on Misplaced Pages that contain a link to YouTube. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message on the talk page to either request the regular editors check the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy, or to note my removal of it.

Most YouTube material is unsuitable for Misplaced Pages because:

The source and legitimacy of the videos on YouTube are almost or totally impossible to determine, hence they are not reliable sources and are not verifiable (A key requirement).
Many videos on YouTube are of questionable copyright legitimacy, which should not be linked from Misplaced Pages.
Since many videos are personally made, they represent original research, which Misplaced Pages is not in the buissiness of publishing. They may also be biased in their presentation of material (IE. Non-objective)

If the link(s) on this page are legitimate, feel free to re-add them, but be aware that you must be able to present proof that they do not violate the above policies (Verifyability, External links and Copyrights), or they will just be removed again.

For more information on this message, see User talk:J.smith/YouTube Linklist. Thanks, Crockspot 23:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC) Crockspot 23:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm specifically concerned about the copyright status of the videos. I'm not removing them at this time. Are there archival clips available from Fox that can be linked instead? Crockspot 23:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Merged

I have redirected the following articles here:

Per consensus on their AfDs to include them at this article instead of on individual ones. --W.marsh 00:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Sources

One of the requirements of WP:Autobiography is that particular attention must be paid to WP:verifiability. I am reviewing the citations to support the content of the page and would request any help in sourcing statements where the reference given fails verification or is no longer available. In particular:

The University of Minnesota reference in "Assassination of John F. Kennedy" did not support the second sentence in that section. I have removed it.
The ABC News reference in the lead does not link to an article. A search of ABC News using either their search or google ("9/11 Conspiracy Thriving" site:abcnews.go.com) fails to find any matches. I have commented out the ref and requested sources.
The Gatehouse, Jonathon (2006, May 16). "Hijacking the truth on 9/11". Macleans. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) reference gives a 404 error - not found.

--RexxS (talk) 02:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Please understand that Go to google or YouTube and enter "Jim Fetzer" is not acceptable as a source in an encyclopedia. Please read WP:RS and try to reconcile "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" with the references in this article. As James H. Fetzer is an author of content on http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/, http://assassinationresearch.com/, http://www.jfkresearch.com/ and http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/, they simply do not qualify as third-party sources. The use of first-party sources in this case is governed by WP:Biographies_of_living_persons#Sources, particularly the point that "it does not involve claims about third parties". Please try to find third-party sources to verify content, if it is available. If it is not available, then consider carefully whether the content in the article should be there. --RexxS (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I located another version of the August 6, 2006 Associated Press article by Justin Pope which had been posted on the ABC News website, and restored the citation with the new functioning link.

Question: Can you make a better case for removing the line with Fetzer's quote, "where he refers to Bugliosi's work as 'A closed mind perpetrating a fraud on the public.'"? I don't see that as a BLP violation, since it is properly cited to Fetzer, and is not particularly unusual in terms of the sorts of things that are said in print every day by book reviewers. Strong words, to be sure, but they are Fetzer's opinion, not our judgement of Bugliosi. And I seriously doubt that they would be considered libelous in a court of law were Bugliosi to be silly enough to bring a lawsuit against Fetzer for having written that. Cgingold (talk) 20:47, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The case as I see it, is that the source is first-party, which is not allowable to support a claim about a third person, only about the principal subject (see WP:Biographies of living persons#Sources). I make no judgement about the state of Bugliosi's mind, but the convention on wikipedia is that negative material without high-quality sources has to be removed from the encyclopedia. The consensus is that it is better to err on the side of caution when defamatory content is considered. Misplaced Pages is not a court of law and the community here imposes a stronger burden of proof than a court might - in our case the concept of verifiability. If you can find independent reviewers who make the same claim, then you may be able to use them if the source is shown to be reliable. At present, the article suffers badly from a lack of reliable, independent sources and much more of the content is liable to be challenged if none are found. --RexxS (talk) 21:08, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed reply, RexxS. It appears, however, that you've missed the critical point here: the "offending passage" is, in fact, the title of a book review written by James Fetzer -- nothing more, nothing less. There is no way on earth that can possibly be construed as a BLP issue. To repeat what I said, there's nothing particularly unusual about a book reviewer expressing himself in strong terms. Cgingold (talk) 10:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

In the end, my judgement is that the best place for the review title turns out to be in the citation, since there is no compelling reason to insert it into the sentence in question. Cgingold (talk) 11:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely that the review title should be included in the citation and I feel the balance of the sentence in question benefits from its removal. In fact, I'd downloaded the pdf (fascinating reading, isn't it?) and knew the title, but the point I'd missed was that it was absent from the cite. Thank you for correcting that. I'm in the process of trying to regularise the cites and I hope you won't mind if I put that one into a {{cite journal}} template as well. --RexxS (talk) 12:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

other sourcing issues

The source:

Fetzer, James (2006). "Reasoning about Assassinations" (PDF). International Journal of the Humanities. Retrieved 2009-02-02.

is from a peer-reviewed source - although there is a disclaimer: "Authors are responsible for the accuracy of citations, quotations, diagrams, tables and maps" - so care must be exercised if it is to be treated as a third-party source - and could be used effectively to verify content illustrating Fetzer's views on the matter contained in that document. Nevertheless the document does not contain anything to support the claim of lecturing at Harvard or Yale. Perhaps another source might be able to verify that? --RexxS (talk) 23:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

To be helpful to James H. Fetzer: I removed the source http://twilightpines.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid=47 which displays the page "Scholars for 9/11 Truth - Events" with the edit summary "remove first-party source used to verify statement about external event; request third-party source". I think this was a reasonable request as the cite was supporting the assertion that "He has ... made numerous talk show appearances on the topic" and first-party sources are really not sufficient to verify external events (see above). For example: I could write on my website that I appeared as Hamlet at the Royal Shakespeare Theatre, but that wouldn't be a usable source to support such a claim in my biography on wikipedia. If I wrote on my website that my favourite colour is red, then anyone could use that to cite that claim in my wikipedia biography. I hope you can see the difference. Now, you have replaced the with a link to http://911scholars.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=74&Itemid=53 which displays the page "Scholars for 9/11 Truth - Events" - the same source (with a different domain) that I objected to as first-party. I will assume good faith and accept that you either did not understand the concept of first-party vs third-party sourcing or forgot the objections to the original link. In either case, I would suggest you carefully review the provenance of citations that are used to support content in this article. In particular, I will politely request that you revert your re-insertion of the source in question and either find an independent source or allow someone else to. Supporting claims with self-published sources does nothing to improve the quality of the article. --RexxS (talk) 02:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I am doing my best to comply with requirements that appear to me to be not well-founded. My lectures at Harvard and Yale did not make the front page of The Daily Crimson or Yale's student paper. I was invited by Jesse Ventura to give a lecture to his class at Harvard while he was a fellow at the Kennedy School of Government. The lecture at Yale was arranged by a student who was not well-versed in publicizing events. I also gave a talk on 9/11. For sponsoring me, the student, who is from the Dominican Republic, was placed on a "terrorist watch" list! I changed the sentence about my talks--many of which are archived under "Events" at 911scholars.org--to say that I was CONTINUING to make presentations, because there is the list of the talks I have recently given or am scheduled to make. I think you are employing an excessively demanding standard here that doesn't make a lot of sense. How many talk show appearances are noted by The Library of Congress? What kind of official record is supposed to exist? There is no better source on my talk show appearances, but millions of Americans have heard them. There is not a single false sentence in my bio sketch. You have an "open encyclopedia" where anyone can make entries, yet when the subject of the entry--who knows vastly more about the subject than anyone else alive--seeks to update it and make it more accurate and complete, he is subjected to some kind of third degree! Virtually all faculty are required to maintain a web site recording their academic histories and list of publications. Can you imagine what would happen if an institution were to discover that a faculty member had made false entries? You don't know enough about these things to impose such severe standards. Egad! I am a former Marine Corps officer. No one with my background would be inclined to include false information about themselves. This is an extreme form of disrespect. Unless you want to go back to my birth certificate to decide whether I was actually born in Pasadena and check whether I actually graduated from South Pasadena High School or received its highest award, I think your policies require recalibration. Especially with UNIVERSITY FACULTY, you just aren't going to have inaccuracies in their curriculum vita! That would be a serious academic offense. And asking for records of hundreds of appearances on talk shows, how can I do better than cite "Events" on 911scholars.org, which lists many of them going back for years and years, or send someone to YouTube or google video, where they can actually WATCH dozens and dozens of public presentations that were regarded as important enough to be filmed and, in a rather large number of cases, actually broadcast over television? Please tell me what I am supposed to be doing wrong, because it seems to me I am doing everything right. No one knows more about me than I do! It's that simple. You have enough "anchors" in so-called third party reports that it should be obvious I am who I claim to be. If I give you a citation to my CV or "Events" on Scholars, that is not because I am making any of this up!! What is supposed to be the purpose of such an entry than to be accurate and complete? Incidentally, I posted a long response about these things previously. I cannot see any justifiable basis for disputing any of the sentences that occur in my entry. On the contrary, I am doing my best to maintain its standards, where practically nothing said about me is left without support. And the sources I am citing, as I have explained, appear to be entirely appropriate. When I mention that I co-edit an on-line journal for advanced study of the death of JFK or that I founded Scholars for 9/11 Truth and cite their URLs, what more could be required? And when I tell you I have made a presentation at Cambridge and cite where it is announced, you or one of your associates want to verify what I am saying is true as opposed to that I made the presentation? Surely that goes far beyond your competence. And I am stunned that someone would dispute the TITLE of a paper that I have published! Something is not right here. Self-published sources are entirely appropriate when there is no reason to doubt them. They are verifiable as sources and may provide information that is accessible from no other source. Contrary to your position, they DO enhance the quality of the entry, as my curriclum vitae--and the extensive list of "Events" on 911scholars.org--both clearly display. James H. Fetzer (talk) 21:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, as I was taking a shower just now, it occurred to me that an important exception to your notion that self-authored records should not be accepted as citations is contradicted by the admissibility of diaries in courts of law. These are periodically updated records of personal thoughts and activities and are widely accepted as legal evidence. Curriculum vitae and lists of events from a source like Scholars are similar: they are periodically updated records, not merely of personal thoughts, but of publications and other activities, where presentations on television and on radio are alternative forms of publication. As a Landsdown Lecturer at the University of Victoria in 1992, which is listed in my Curriculum Vitae, I presented a series of four lectures on the nature of consciousness and cognition but, because my host was a faculty member in the School of Business Administration, I also presented a lecture on the philosophy of accounting, in which I distinguished between "accounting" as a process of verifying that numbers add up, "auditing: stage 1" as a process of verifying that those numbers are supported by documents and records, and "auditing: stage 2" as a process of undertaking the existence of the stock, products, and so forth that those records represent. My impression is that editors at Misplaced Pages are confounding the process of auditing: stage 1 with auditing: stage 2. Your requests for citations to support important claims in Wikiepedia entires are entirely appropriate, but the idea that Wiki editors should undertake the verification of those citations would seem to be a reach. Take my records of talk show appeareances as an example. The "Events" page for Scholars is up-dated on a weekly basis, sometimes more often. I typically provide links or identify locations where my presentations can be heard or observed. Many of those entries are supplmented by URLs that take you to actual archives where those talks and presentations are preserved. To reject my citations without attempting to verify the sources I cite is posing as if you had done an audit: stage 2 when in fact you have not done so at all. Similarly with my presentations that are archived at YouTube and google video. It is entirely appropriate for Wiki to insist on some form of documentation via records or archives for key claims, but beyond the pale for Wiki to insist on verification beyond documents and records ABSENT SOME SPECIAL REASON FOR DOING SO. I have provided links to documents and records that verify my entries as auditing: stage 1. I have also indicated how you could extend the verification process by auditing: stage 2, if you want to listen to some of the programs on which I have been a guest or to view some of the presentations I have made. The evidence that i have done these things not only exists but is easily accessible. And, if anyone wants to go deeper, they are welcome to follow the leads that I have provided. To delete the listing of "Events" on 911scholars.org or to refuse citations to YouTube and google video appears to be self-defeating, if your interest is in having complete and accurate records. So I would suggest--ever so politely!--that you just might want to recailbrate your policies to make it clear that Misplaced Pages is not responsible for carrying the process of verification to stage 2 but only for establishing the existence of documents and records that verify those claims at stage 1, no matter whether their source happens to be the subject of an entry, especially when, like diaries, they have the character of periodically updated records of publications and other activities. I think that might provide the basis for more reasonable and consistent policy regarding entries in the encyclopedia that better defines the scope and limits of your responsibilities with respect to entries, especially in the case of public figures, where they know more about their publications and activities than any third-hand parties, provided, of course, that they are supported by documents and records. It is, after all, a presumption that "thirid party" sources are going to be more accurate than first-party records. I have read many stories about my positions on 9/11, for example, that are far off the mark. So should they be preferred to my own when they conflict? My essay on "Reasoning about Assassinations", which was not only presented during a conference at Cambridge but was published in the proceedings of that conference in The International Journal of the Humanities, obviously qualifies as an appropriate form of documentation. The very idea of treating it gingerly "as a third party source" strikes me as a nice example of confounding auditing: stage 1 with auditing: stage 2, which, of course, would require that Wiki editors become as expert in the study of the death of JFK as the article's author, which is absurd. You are using it to certify that I made such a presentation and the findings I presented, not as an endorsement of the research that I present there, which is appropriate to exactly that extent. I appreciate having the opportunity to share my thoughts about all of this with you. Let me know if there are more issues I need to address. James H. Fetzer (talk) 22:50, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

First of all, some simple requests: Please do not tell another editor what they do or do not know about academia; please do not accuse another editor of disrespect; please do not attempt to tell another editor's what is beyond their competence. You have no idea whom you are addressing. Now, I'll do my best to be helpful and try to answer the questions you raise, and the problems you seem to be having with Misplaced Pages's (not my) policies. Since Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, the community have had to develop some rules and guidance for what may be included in the encyclopedia. The criterion for inclusion of any statement is that the statement can be verified from a reliable source. The truth of a statement is not the issue. Although that may seem strange at first, in fact it has been shown to work remarkably well. This is what Misplaced Pages says:

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." - Misplaced Pages:Verifiability
Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. - Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources

The problem with relying on what you have yourself written is not an attack on your honesty. It is simply that we hold all content in the encyclopedia to the same standards. Please don't take it personally. I am sorry that you can't see the sense in what Misplaced Pages requires for its content at present. If you perhaps were able to find the time to look at, for example, the history of the article Gary Weiss and the subsequent arbitration case, you might better understand some of the community's concerns about sourcing in biographies of living persons.

You raise a specific concern about my request for sources for the statement: "Fetzer has lectured on this subject at Harvard, Yale, and Cambridge Universities." The source given clearly verifies your presentation at Cambridge. Neither I nor anyone else will challenge that, but I am free to ask "Where is the verification for the claim about Harvard and Yale?" When I ask for sources for that, I am not casting doubts on its truth, merely its verifiability - and I'm not asking you personally for verification; I am asking the entire community. It may well be that no sources exist. If not, then anyone can remove that part of the statement. That's how Misplaced Pages works. At least by asking the question, I am giving the opportunity for a source to be found. This brings me to a general point: If a statement you have added to Misplaced Pages is sourced only by something else you have written elsewhere, there's no point in the citation; we might as well take your word in the first place. Nevertheless, by removing the and replacing it by citing yourself, you remove the invitation for someone else to find a third-party source which Misplaced Pages prefers. That's what I hoped you would understand when I wrote "Supporting claims with self-published sources does nothing to improve the quality of the article."

You ask "How many talk show appearances are noted by The Library of Congress? What kind of official record is supposed to exist?" The answer is, I hope, obvious. Misplaced Pages just asks that an appearance on a talk show is reported somewhere that has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. If it's not recorded thus, it doesn't belong in this encyclopedia.

The community is rightly suspicious of using YouTube to verify anything. I can go there and watch Hitler being banned from World of Warcraft] - it doesn't mean it happened.

You state: "I cannot see any justifiable basis for disputing any of the sentences that occur in my entry." Please try to understand nobody is disputing the truth of any statement. What is being disputed is whether a statement should be in this encyclopedia. If it can't be verified, it shouldn't be included. That's what Misplaced Pages requires.

You write that " stunned that someone would dispute the TITLE of a paper that I have published!" I know it's a subtle point, that may be difficult to comprehend immediately, but the the fact that you published an article with that title was not in dispute; what was disputed was the appropriateness of including that title as text within the article, because of its pejorative nature.

Rather than going through the rest of your comments above, I would strongly recommend you read Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. It's not all black-and-white but you may be able to grasp the extent to which your self-published sources may be appropriate and the extent to which other sources are required. Please try not to confuse truth with verifiability, as that seems to be the basis of much of your comments above. You have several editors wishing to help improve this article, all of whom are telling you that the article relies too much on self-published sources. Please reflect on the possibility that you may not be right in your assessment of the weight Misplaced Pages should place on first-party sources against third-party. Remember that you don't have to address any issues; anyone can edit this article and nobody owns it. I hope all of this will eventually help to improve the article - that is the only intention in this post. --RexxS (talk) 03:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Other sourcing issues 2

OK, I'll bite. Who am I addressing? What are your qualifications for editing Misplaced Pages? I ask this because taking third-party assertions over first-party assertions, especially when they are supported by periodically updated records, is not "verification". Verification would require conclusively confirming the truth of a matter based upon unimpeachable sources. So how does Misplaced Pages verify what third-party sources are reporting? Faculty records, including curriculum vitae, are public documents. False entries would bring retribution from the administration. Why would you think they were inaccurate or unreliable? Similarly, for "Events" in a public forum like the Scholars' web site. What benefit could possibly derive from false entries? Their purpose is to let people know where they can listen to or attend my presentations and those of others. Doesn't common sense matter to Misplaced Pages? Do you think that I would make up hundreds of entries about talk shows and television and other public appearances? You appear to be after the appearance of verification without knowing that your sources are accurate. I make this observation having been misrepresented by NBC, the BBC, and the History Channel, for example, in hit piece on students of 9/11. I know how thankless editing can be, having more than twenty years of extensive professional experience. So I would really like to know the answers to these questions. Many thanks. James H. Fetzer (talk) 05:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Sir, if you wish to change Misplaced Pages policy, you're doing it on the wrong page, and should go to Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources and argue there. Until you win that argument, the editors on this page are going to use the same standards used on the millions of other articles on Misplaced Pages, and you shouldn't take it out on the editors following the rules. They're not going to give your article idiosyncratic treatment no matter how persuasive you are here that Misplaced Pages is wrong and you're right. Rexx's qualifications for editing Misplaced Pages are that he has read the rules, and you apparently haven't. When you play chess, do you demand that kings be allowed to move more than one space because it makes no sense for queens and bishops to be more powerful? THF (talk) 06:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Faculty vitae are reliable sources. The "Events" list on 911scholars is a reliable source. That is their purpose. They are public documents whose purposes would be defeated if they were not reliable. I don't have a problem with your policies in general, but when entries are verifiable, why should the source matter? The neutrality condition seems to conflict with the verifability criterion. As long as sources are verifiable, why should it matter if they are first, second, or third party? Most of the entries under "Events", for example include links to recordings of the original interviews. If you want to assess the "reliability" of that list, why not take the time and check them? They may not even be recorded anywhere else, like my talks at Harvard and Yale. Otherwise, significant events may be wrongly excluded for no good reason. James H. Fetzer (talk) 07:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Your response shows no evidence that you read a single word I wrote. THF (talk) 09:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, I have read every word. The Wiki rules emphasize verifiability using reliable sources and third-party sources. That's fine as long as they are available:

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." - Misplaced Pages:Verifiability
Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. - Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources

My point, which is responsive to your remarks, is that (a) faculty vitae are "reliable sources" and (b) that announcements of "Events" on 911scholars.org are also "reliable". I have explained the circumstances of my talks at Harvard and Yale. What do you want? A note from Jesse Ventura? A letter from my student sponsor from the Dominican Republic? In fact, when it comes to my life, activities, and publications, I AM A HIGHLY RELIABLE SOURCE. No one is trying to "sneak something by" the editors of WIKI. Why should anyone "challenge" my presentations at Harvard (on JFK) and Yale (on JFK and 9/11)? Really! In the case no "third party" source happens to be available, why are you not willing to accept another "reliable source", especially when it comes from one who was there? That would appear to be consistent with WIKI's rules. James H. Fetzer (talk) 15:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Faculty vitae may well be reliable, that is, the faculty may have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, but when you supply the information to the faculty, they are no longer a third-party source for that information. It may be that the announcements on 911schollars.org are accurate, but again they are not third-party. Does 911scholars.org have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? It may have, but when it is used as extensively as it is in this article, somebody may ask "where is that reputation documented?" - that would be required to show reliability. We are asked to take your word alone that it is a reliable source. The difficulty is that an honest man and a liar would both claim their statements are true; a claim of truth in itself does nothing to establish truth. That is why wikipedia does not seek to establish truth, only verifiability. Please understand that I am not saying I don't accept your word. I am merely suggesting that it does not meet our criteria, as we would then be in the position of having to accept the word of many others, much less distinguished than you - where should we draw the line? Should we accept the word of every Marine Officer or Professor Emeritus? Would a Police Officer or Chief Executive Officer also acceptable? Misplaced Pages's community has chosen not to place itself in the position of having to make those kind of decisions. And as unfair as it is to honest men such as yourself, it is our only defence against the charlatans who could otherwise destroy our project.

I would ask again "If there is no reliable, independent source available for a statement, should it be in an encyclopedia?" That is an expression of the criterion for inclusion. Perhaps the Harvard and Yale lectures should not be included, if nobody reported on them? Not every event in an individual's life is worthy of inclusion. Please reflect on what wikipedia requires for material to remain in our encyclopedia. I hope that helps. --RexxS (talk) 01:08, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

COI, seriously

James Fetzer, the fact that you have repeatedly defended elements of your self-edited entry on this talk page means you should read (or re-read) WP:COI. I am sorry to be blunt, but it is not your place to decide what should or should not go in your Misplaced Pages entry. That's the way it is here, and it doesn't matter how many accolades and degrees you've racked up. I'm a little surprised by your audacity, frankly -- and trust me, it doesn't reflect well on you. Please resist the urge, thank you. Jordgette (talk) 00:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Old Jim does seem to blame the Israelis for a lot of things. I saw you on Press TV today - owned and operated by the Iranian Govt for goodness sake. If you read this Jimbo, could you give us some facts to back up your crazy theories? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.186.23.238 (talk) 21:45, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

How ridiculous is this? Wiki editors using their own ignorance and bias to edit or suppress the work of entry subjects? How does that represent your avowed dedication to neutrality? I cite everything I add, which makes it verifiable. No one knows what I have done better than I. This is a bizarre editing practice to trivialize those whose efforts do not meet with editors' personal approval. ABSURD! 184.60.4.73 (talk) 19:33, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

This article is far too neutral

Congratulations, editors, on providing such neutrality to the very controversial subject of this article. I actually got the impression that Fetzer had some sort of credibility from it (soon debunked by further readings from the Dr. Professor). 165.134.208.176 (talk) 08:08, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

This comment reveals incredible bias. How can this guy have any idea whether I am right or wrong by going to "debunking" sites or by reading what I have written, which is well documented, unless he has actually studied the evidence in each case? I get the impression that Wiki is edited by very immature and usually biased individuals who substitute their own ignorance for serious study of the evidence.184.60.4.73 (talk) 20:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

Sections based on primary and self published sources

I have started to remove sections that are based almost, and solely on primary and self-published sources. It's completely undue, see WP:UNDUE and read WP:NPOV in general. Misplaced Pages is not here to promote fringe theories, particularly when they have attracted zero comment outside primary and self-published sources, see WP:FRINGE. Also WP:PRIMARY, people are getting far too much milage out of using primary sources. Policy: Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

This was just about cleaned-up when the subject of the article inserted more primary and self-published sources, as well as Amazon and YouTube cites. I've reverted the entire lot. Location (talk) 03:11, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

It looks like some of the issues the article was tagged for have been resolved as of the current edit. I condensed the tags, hopefully we can get the rest resolved as well. --Tgeairn (talk) 05:06, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I think there are secondary sources available that can be used in place of some of the primary source material. I'll see what I can do. Location (talk) 05:11, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Having cut my entry by half, now my efforts to update it and providing missing references has been deleted. No one should doubt that Misplaced Pages is an op to suppress truth and promote falsehoods. My efforts to create a more fair and balanced entry have been obliterated. They were all sourced and are all verifiable. Kindly restore them.184.60.4.73 (talk) 19:28, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Jim Fetzer

The sourcing of various parts of the article is being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#James H. Fetzer. If you have questions or grievances, you may want to discuss them there. Location (talk) 20:10, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Here are some references to third-party transcripts.

Conversation with Bill O'Reilly, describing Scholars for 9/11 Truth:

FETZER: We've created an organization consisting of experts and scholars, pilots, aeronautical engineers, mechanical engineers, structural engineers, physicists. We've been examining what the government's been telling us. And, frankly, Bill it's a fantasy.

In a conversation with Sean Hannity and Alan Colmes, Fetzer named those his group finds primarily responsible for the September 11, 2001 attacks:

FETZER: America today, given what we know about 9/11 and our import - - our exportation at home and use of terrorism at home and abroad. It actually appears to be a force that is promoting terrorism rather than combating it. Even the National Intelligence Estimate reflects, Sean.

COLMES: Was Dick Cheney responsible for directing an attack on the United States, yes or no?
FETZER: Dick Cheney had a major role here, along with Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice.
COLMES: ... this administration.
FETZER: Donald Fief (ph), Paul Wolfowitz, and Larry Silverstein.

500 people meet for first convention on 9/11 conspiracy in Chicago.

Fetzer supports the idea of teaching classes on 9/11 conspiracy, also describes Scholars for 9/11 Truth.

Fetzer calls for congressional investigation into the death of Senator Paul Wellstone:

A professor at the University of Minnesota, Duluth, James Fetzer is calling on Congress to investigate the death of Minnesota Democratic Senator Paul Wellstone two years ago, insisting Wellstone was the target of a White House plot. Wellstone, you may recall, died after his plane crashed into a Minnesota forest.
The new book by Fetzer and another college professor, known to many as Four Arrows, insist the official government probe into the crash white washed a broad Republican murder conspiracy and chose to blame the death on pilot error instead. Fetzer quoted by the "Minneapolis Star Tribune" says, quote, "Something very wrong has happened in this case."

These were from a quick search of transcripts, obviously there may be more. --Tgeairn (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

With that, I don't think I'll need any pdfs. All good secondary sources. Location (talk) 20:15, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

"Why the hijackers are fake", via YouTube
"Professors Research Conspiracy Theories on 9/11". Fox News Network. 22 June 2006. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
"Professor Blames U.S. for 9/11". Fox News Network. September 27, 2006. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
"First 9/11 Conspiracy Convention in Chicago". Global Broadcast Database - English. August 9, 2006. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
"Insight". Fox News Network. June 22, 2006. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
"Political Grapevine; "The New York Times" Mentioned Later that Missing Weapons were not Found by the Army". Fox News Network. October 26, 2004. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)

Categories: