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SPLC

The SPLC has issued a couple reports that may be appropriate to mention briefly in the section on the men's rights movement - this and this. I'm not sure offhand if they're appropriate for inclusion, so I figured I'd just drop the link here and let y'all decide. Kevin (kgorman-ucb) (talk) 01:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

well it's a verifiable paper publication that's used as a law enforcement resource, from a notable organisation who's work and research have been constantly reported in the news. they also did an article on mra claims. . just had a look on the reliable sources noticeboard and they say that "intelligence report" is a RS known for fact-checking and has awards for investigative journalism. Paintedxbird (talk) 13:51, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

This definitely needs to be included. SPLC is a reputable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by

This definitely needs to be included. SPLC is a reputable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.240.172.151 (talk) 05:23, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I have a few problems with it being included, mainly it's admitted bias, which is discussed on the RS board, and I don't see any sort of "consensus" that it is indeed reliable unless I missed something, which I'm completely open to. The article they did addressed 3 concerns of mens rights, while it is an article it is anything but in-depth. TickTock2 (talk) 17:06, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I take that back, after looking at another link to SPLC, they do seem to agree it's a RS, so I cede that point. My point about the bias stands, so I think it can be included, but should adhere to weight issues. (ie this is a topic about Men's Rights in general, not a specific group) and the war on women article is written as a editorial, more than factual. TickTock2 (talk) 17:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

They "disprove" an MRA claim by ignoring data from the exact same study that MRAs use to prove the very claim. The CDC's NISVS found that, if one includes a male being forced to penetrate without his consent as rape, in 2010 the same number of women and men were raped - they just chose not to call it rape. The article ignores that. They also mispresent the MRA-asserted parity in domestic violence by conflating it with violence in general (the claim says violence, the study they talk about says partner violence, then back to general), and dismiss only a single study (which, for the record, nobody who posted on the issue in the largest MRA forum on the internet had ever heard of). And only a tiny portion of people assert that false claims are as high as "close to half or even more" (weasel words, much?). In the other article that talks about the men's rights subreddit on reddit, they talk about the claims of a moderator that had stepped down 6 months before without mentioning it. They may be an RS, but it's a terrible article, can it not be excluded or at least posted along with criticism (at least if a good source is found)?

(above, unsigned)

Two curious matters in reading the article, Leader’s Suicide Brings Attention to Men’s Rights Movement about the self-immolation suicide.

• The external name is "Leader’s Suicide Brings Attention to Men’s Rights Movement;" but the internal article web-name is "War on Women!"
• Only mentioning in passing, that there are legitimate men's issues, it take a tragic suicide of a despairing father, and makes it, somehow, an attack on women.

A Misplaced Pages Editor could not get away with that sort of weaseling and POV violation. cregil (talk) 23:00, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

You are right that the article takes a more explicit point of view than would be appropriate for a Misplaced Pages editor, but there's not really any such thing as a 'POV violation' in a source. We don't require (or expect or desire) our sources to be neutral, we just expect our editors to portray the sources that do exist in a neutral fashion. If something meets our standards to be a reliable source (and SPLC articles do,) then we're perfectly okay with the source having an opinion. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:14, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

It concerns me that what I would expect to be a balanced source, has such a radical (a father committing suicide is equivocal to an "attack on women") and disingenuous posture (the article's title and the content of that article being irreconcilable). The word "reliable" must take on new meaning. Blacks claim unequal and harsher sentencing in criminal court, we do not go to the KKK for counterpoint in working on an article. We already know the organization has taken a stance against the subject and we also know that the organization is not directly involved in the issue.

My point is, when an otherwise reliable source has, for reasons of its own, chosen an extreme position against the subject matter-- it ceases to be a valid source; further, that as the SPLC has no apparent work among Men's Groups, they have no direct relation to the subject.

That men see themselves as disadvantaged in certain issues, is NOT served by a source which is quick to marginalize and demonize. A father seeking custody of his children is not attacking women and a husband unable to gain logistics support (a shelter) when physically abused by his wife is not the concern of the SPLC-- although I cannot imagine why the SPLC has taken such a position. cregil (talk) 23:04, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Reliable does have a special meaning in the context of Misplaced Pages, please see our policy that deals with identifying reliable sources. If a source meets the guidelines set forth in our sourcing policies, than the source is not made somehow invalid no matter how much you disagree with its opinions. We don’t require the sources we used to be balanced or neutral, we just require them to meet the standards we set forward for reliability. The SPLC meets our standards for reliability: they have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy and have editorial oversight. They are also generally well-regarded outside of Misplaced Pages – their publications, especially their Intelligence Reports (which this is one of) – have wide circulation among domestic law enforcement agencies, are frequently cited in the mainstream media, are frequently used by academics, etc.

Since SPLC publications meet the standard we set forth for reliability, it also doesn’t matter that they have not previously been directly involved in the men’s rights movement. We assume that sources that meet our standards for reliability are reliable when they are talking about subject areas that they choose to talk about, even when they are subject areas that they are not part of movements for.

SPLC is an advocacy group, so its opinion shouldn’t (and won’t) be included as fact in any article here. However, they are a prominent advocacy group – they are usually recognized as the leading authority on hate groups in the US – so their opinion will be worthy of a mention in the eventual rewrite of this article. And I see no reason to believe that SPLC is an unreliable source for matters of straight fact, like “The suicide of Thomas Ball drew additional attention to the MRM.”

Also: please don’t make hyperbolic emotionally charged analogies such as comparing the relationship between the SPLC and men to that of black people and the Klan. Kevin Gorman (talk) 11:31, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Kevin, 1) You read what I wrote and what you got out of that is that I do not know the policy on reliable sources. 2) You read an analogy of a biased source not involved with MRMs, and what you took from that was that I was comparing inner city minorities to fathers denied custody rights-- calling it "hyperbole." 3) You read the article and what you got out of it was that the suicide drew attention to the MRM? Really? No. Not really. You have another motive for pretending not to understand. Otherwise, you might have addressed my point rather than provide the condescension. Address my point, not me, and not the points you wished I were making.--cregil (talk) 05:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

1. You suggested that that the SPLC article was inappropriate to use a source because it had an opinion that you disagreed with. This is not something that is suggested by or supported by in any of our sourcing policies, so I did assume that you hadn't read them in-depth.
2. If I misrepresented your analogy, I'm sorry, but there's still no reason to be comparing the KKK and the SPLC on this page in any context. On a page that tends to draw more heat than light to begin with, I cannot imagine why comparing the most famous monitor of hate groups in the United States - which is a well-regarded non-profit thinktank that meets WP:RS - to the most famous hate group in the United States - which is, well, none of those things (and fails WP:RS) - would be a good idea.
3. The article contains that information, as a statement of fact. So, yes. It contains a lot of other information and opinion. I was giving an example of information that could be derived from the article that is not covered in many other reliable sources, not trying to portray the opinion of the article.

Please read the terms of probation that this article is currently under. You're free to think I have a shadowy ulterior motive, but the terms of probation require you to comment on my content points, rather than comment on my motives. Kevin Gorman (talk) 13:38, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

1. I most certainly did NOT suggest that "the SPLC article was inappropriate to use a source because it had an opinion that you disagreed with." I questioned validity based on evidence of bias-- not based upon agreement with me. Do not seek to marginalize my comments which were made in good faith-- as that statement clearly and indisputably does. I expressed a valid concern-- not an attack. Please treat my comments as they are.
2. If you apologize, then why restate your misrepresentation as if accurate? Do not put words in my mouth, as it demonstrates a lack of sincere contrition. I explained the extent of the analogy when I made it. It is till there for you to read and address, if you like. I also expressed dismay that such a group would chose to victimize a victim-- a man who seems to have no relation, whatsoever, with a hate group-- that is, assuming you had researched the subject as I had already done. I came to this discussion knowing the subject-- having written of it elsewhere when the suicde took place; so I may well have insight as to the article's inappropriate use made of that suicide in relation to hate groups.
3. You cherry picked your quote from that article and you know it. I knew it, too. So, No, that quote does not represent what you believe the article to be about, as you have now stated. But you chose to use it, and only now claim that you did so as "an example of information that could be derived from the article." Maybe so, but you would likely admit that the opposite of that reason is more easily deduced in the context of your original reply. You make my point: One piece of truth in a sea of hogwash does not validate the hogwash, and thus a reliable source becomes a questionable one.

Sauce for the goose. Engage my discussion and not the discussion you wished I were taking. I have declared that expectation twice. Go back and read Number One if you do not understand why I have repeated myself.

--cregil (talk) 18:52, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Please provide a link to any relevant sourcing policy that states that biased articles are invalid as sources, or any sourcing policies that state that your own personal opinion (i.e.: your belief that the article speaks of the suicide in an inappropriate way) is a valid criterion to treat as invalid a source that otherwise meets WP:RS. Pieces by well-established thinktanks like the EFF, ACLU, or SPLC are appropriate sources to use for matters of simple fact (like the fact that Ball's suicide drew additional attention to the MRM) and the opinions that they contain are appropriate to put in to articles in relevant places in appropriate quantities with attribution (like, "In a recent report the Southern Poverty Law Center stated that some prominent men's rights advocates vilify women.") Kevin Gorman (talk) 16:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

We are not limited to policy.

We make use of our intellect, any ethics, and the ability to distinguish biased writing from the unbiased. That is what the Talk Page is for-- so that editors may bring forth issues of concern so that others editors may consider. I was responding to the topic begin by just such another editor. You have a problem with that I responded to it-- So what?

What a Talk Page is not for, is exampled by your contrary replies. The only editor attempting to lord over another editor is you-- it is taken this many comments just to back out of range of your attacks.

My original expressed concerns remain un-discussed. Instead, I have had to unravel your rhetoric in rewording my comments so that I fit your model of an antagonist. Stop it! Find something constructive to do. I made no attack on you, I expressed a concern-- which you are not addressing.

Let those who might be interested, do so, without comment since you have nothing constructive to offer. You disparage, condescend and distract again, and I will escalate this.--cregil (talk) 21:12, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I've previously linked the terms of probation that this article is currently under in a reply to you here; I'll post a formal notification of them on your talk page concurrently with submitting this post, because I hadn't previously and believe a formal notification is necessary before they have any force, although I'm not sure. I would like to especially draw your attention to the point that says that discussions should be focused on the content involved, and not on other editors. Many of your recent posts have been almost solely making unsupported claims about my behavior and motivations and not dealing with content issues. If you keep making accusations towards me, I will be asking uninvolved administrators to review your conduct and sanction you if they find that it does violate the article probation terms. (And to be clear: any uninvolved administrator would also be reviewing my behavior.)

You are right that we are not restricted solely to following policy, but site-wide policies reflect the codified consensus of Misplaced Pages editors. We need strong reasons to deviate from them. I don't think you have presented any, and certainly, a consensus has not emerged to deviate from WP:NPOV which is a fundamental site wide policy, or WP:RS, which is a guideline. Barring a strong consensus to deviate from existing sitewide policies, we default to following them. If you would like to draw more opinions to this issue to try to establish a consensus in favor of your viewpoint, you can run a request for comment, or run the issue past the reliable sources noticeboard. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:04, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Hadn't we already agreed this source isn't fit for this article? I have my own gripes with how this one has been handled (Arguments against inclusion of material because it is about the Men's Rights movement, then turning around later and trying to change it into a Men's Rights Movement article), but let us not waste our time. It's a crap source. Moving on.... Arkon (talk) 21:29, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

This is the only talk page section that ever mentioned SPLC, including in the archives, and you've never posted in it previously. Until cregil started to post here a couple days ago, only one editor had disagreed completely with its inclusion. So, no: there was not a previous consensus that this article was inappropriate (and you had not posted an opinion prior to your current post about the SPLC.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:04, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and started an RSN thread about this: WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Is an SPLC intelligence report a reliable source for information about the men's rights movement? Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:30, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Apologies, this source has come up on numerous other pages and I confused this with that. What information are you looking to include with this source? Start there and we can move forward. Arkon (talk) 00:02, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Here we go Arkon (talk) 00:17, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm on really lame internet currently and just got my response to this deleted when I tried to post it for some reason. I don't have time to draft another version of it, so I'll leave you with a short answer for now and reply in more detail later. The kind of things I want to use it for I posted in more detail the RSN link that I posted directly above your comment - assuming the RFC closes as move to MRM, I think it would be useful to flush out certain facts about the men's rights movement (it's one of the only third party sources that even mentions the immolation of Tom Ball as a significant event), and think that the opinion may warrant a sentence or so in a section about reactions to the MRM or something similar. This would be sticking to what the article actually says, not saying anything like "The SPLC says the men's rights movement is a hate group," since that's not something that is supported by the article or was intended by the author. (I also haven't had time to read the thread you linked yet, but will look through it later.) (Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Successful Suicide Rate

This article will morph for the forseeable future under the stream of impartial biased people from every side of every related issue, so excuse me for picking a small spot in this article that popped out as possibly an artifact of edit warring. In the section titled "Men's rights movement" (odd capitalization, since the existence of the section implies that the MRM is a proper noun) I think the qualifier "successful" in front of suicide is a symptom of the argument over this article.

♠ To begin with, we refer to successful suicide as just "suicide," do we not? We never talk about the recent string of "successful suicides" amongst gay teens. It's when suicide is attempted but failed that we bother to qualify it as "attempted suicide."

♣ Second, I don't believe I've ever heard (or read, but then, I've never read such literature) someone claiming to be a participant in the "Men's rights movement" complain of the "higher successful suicide rate," so I tried to check the source cited for the offending sentence... and lo, the page cited is not available on Google Books, nor at my local library, and to purchase the book would cost more than $200. My suspicion is that at some point, someone wanted to include a sentence indicating that suicide attempts amongst females have a lower success rate, but that edit warring commenced, so the sentence boiled down to include, as a means to diminish the idea, "successful."

Summary: Without making any value judgments about the participants, it's clear that MRAs do not focus on the "successful" aspect of suicide. If you're trying to indicate their positions, which the sentence as it currently exists does, you shouldn't simultaneously try to fit in a critique of that position.

That said, if it's agreed that the word successful doesn't belong there, maybe you can all fight about whether to put the data on suicide attempt/success rate by gender in some other section in this article. (My guess is that that will stir up more argument, but hey, right now it's just sitting there pretending not to be the result of woman-hate, man-hate, woman-hating-man-hate, and man-hating-woman-hate. For the record, I haven't checked the revision history for when that changed, so I could very well be wrong.) Undiskedste (talk) 22:33, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

You're right, the word successful probably makes no sense there. I don't have easy access to the citation either, but I'll take it out just because I can't imagine that it's supported by the citation. (This is one of the reasons why the citation maintenance tag is in the beginning of the article - the previous unconstructive back and forth over the article resulted in the misrepresentation of a *lot* of citations.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 18:43, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

It's interesting that neither of you can read the source, because it works fine for me. I wonder how or why googlebooks works. The source says "The literature of the men's rights movement frequently cites statistics that show that men suffer shorter lives, higher successful suicide rates, and a higher incidence of most stress-related diseases than do women," so it is supported by the citation. I think that the "successful" point may be important, because women (in the US at least) make 3 times the number of attempts as men do,. The wording is not felicitous however, I agree. --Slp1 (talk) 22:31, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Dispute tags - further discussion needed

I've been bold and removed the top notices about embedded lists and fancruft. This article does not appear to contain any embedded lists, at least not according to how they are described in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Embedded lists. It also is not material that is only of interest to a hardcore minority of fans, but is rather a general-interest sociology article. If anybody believes that these tags should be reinstated, please discuss it below. I would also like to discuss the other tags, and see if they are actually necessary. IF they are, we need to figure out what to do to improve the article so that they become unnecessary.

• Verifiability: Which sources are misleading or inappropriate? They generally appear to be high-quality sources, mostly academic publications with a healthy dose of newspapers and books. The Daily Mail and Washington Times stick out like a sore thumb, though. The Daily Mail citation doesn't appear to reference a claim that is terribly important to the article, and the Washington Times is used to back up two statements that also have other sources. We could probably excise them without any major loss to the article. Foundation of Male Studies might also be sub-par. Are there any subject-matter experts who could do a more thorough review of the academic sources? It is possible that some of them come from poor-quality journals, I just don't have the expertise to determine that.

• Expert attention: Yes, it may be a good idea to have an expert review the sources (see above). I'm not sure if having a tag at the top of the article is beneficial, though. Thoughts?

• Worldwide view: The article seems to contain information about situations in the United States, Canada, Australia, UK and India. Are there any other parts of the world where men's rights is an issue? If there are, i'm sure we can find sources. If not, we can remove the notice. Either way, it may be a good idea to beef up the sections about non-US issues.

• Synthesis: Yes, this appears to be a problem. What is needed is to try to limit the conclusions we draw from sourced statements, unless the sources themselves draw those conclusions. It should be a fairly easy problem to fix, but I would suggest going after the low-hanging fruit first.

• Original research: The OR problem in this article seems to be a synth problem. There are very few uncited statements, and I can't find a single OR issue that isn't also synthesis, making this particular tag redundant. Unless there are objections, i'll remove it once I finish reviewing the article.

• Neutrality: This does appear to be a problem, but a minor one. I see lots of weasel words, and the focus of the article seems to focus on a few very narrow issues that men have with modern society. I would love to see the history section beefed up, and the sections on MRM issues expanded with more data and conclusions from the many studies that have been done. The domestic violence and child custody sections in particular could be bolstered significantly; hundreds (thousands?) of studies have been done on both. This is going to require a pretty major overhaul though, so the tag should probably stay in place for now.

Anyway, please let me know what you think. The article is a mess, and those unsightly tags certainly aren't helping anything. The Wordsmith 16:32, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

There is a section two up from this discussing these tags from last week. (And a section one up from this discussing a citation that was probably not properly supporting the text it was supposed to be citing - the tag isn't about quality of sources, but about misinterpretation of them.) Most of the tags I discussed in depth in the previous section, and it was pretty recent. I agree with you that the fancruft and embedded list tags didn't make sense. I just took out the OR tag because I do think that it's all OR-by-synthesis. I don't think the expert tag has any point to it, but will leave it for someone else to remove. Most of the synthesis is obvious and should be an easy problem to fix, but the level of pushback over trying to do so in the past has meant that I mostly gave up. Kevin Gorman (talk) 17:57, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, to throw it out again, as I did a couple sections up: I still think this article would benefit from being moved to Men's rights movement, Men's rights activism, or even fork it to both Men's rights movement and the claims to Claims of the men's rights movement and then reworked. It would get rid of undue weight issues for the most part (which are substantial right now if the article is just about 'men's rights', since it is almost exclusively presenting a minority POV,) and would also allow for the citation in a limited way of sources from inside the men's rights movement that would otherwise be unacceptable that would make rewriting the article easier. Kevin Gorman (talk) 18:04, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

That's a definite possibility. I'll have to spend some time thinking about how that would work, but I don't think forking parts of it to a "Claims of" article would be such a good idea. That's just begging to become a battleground between MRAs and feminists, and also a POV fork. Claims made by the MRM could easily be worked into the MRM article. The Wordsmith 20:41, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree with Kevin's comments above that certain of these tags need to stay. The verifiability is needed because while the sources may look generally reliable, they don't support the content at times: I even found one source said the exact opposite of what it was cited to say. I also think that both Synthesis and Original Research are needed. The problem is not that the material is not cited, or that material is combined together, but that much of the content (in some sections at least) are not "directly related to the topic of the article" (men's rights, in this case) as required by WP:NOR. For example, large chunks of the section on divorce are cited to sources which make no direct link to men's rights.

For the same reason, I do think, if I have understood him properly, that I disagree with Wordsmith's suggestion of increasing the domestic violence and child custody sections. Yes, there are lots of studies about these, but unless a link is made to men's rights issues, we get back into the same problem we had in the fall. People from every side add their "points" and we end up with an article that is more of a back and forth about domestic violence than about men's rights. We have the domestic violence article for that.

As I've said before, I completely support the notion that this article should be moved to men's rights movement. I've did a lot of research in this area earlier - before I got discouraged by the battlefield mentality - and the plain fact is that whenever you find reliable sources about "men's rights", they are 99% of the time talking about the men's rights movement and their claims. It would also open the way to more discussion of the history etc. I don't think we would want a "claims" one, which I agree would likely end up a point of view fork and a massive battleground to boot. --Slp1 (talk) 22:58, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, some of the tags need to stay for now, particularly synthesis and neutrality tags because the article is a mess. I disagree that all the sources have to be directly about men's rights. For example, let's say that there is a study done on "primary aggressor" laws that shows 25% of complaints against women result in the man being arrested. Even though the study might not specifically mention the MRM, it is still solid evidence of discrimination against men in domestic violence laws. Of course I don't know if such a study exists and pulled the numbers completely out of my ass, but if there is a reliable source like that it should be used in the article.

I see lots of battleground mentality on the talkpage archives that seems to have compromised the article quality and driven away some good editors. I'm not going to get heavily involved in the serious content disputes that will undoubtedly erupt in the future, but as an admin I can remain impartial and help make sure that everyone on both sides plays fair and remains civil, which should attract a higher quality of discourse and hopefully improve the article's quality. The Wordsmith 23:56, 16 June 2012 (UTC

I really, truly disagree with you that a connection to men's rights doesn't need to be made in sources, and other editors in the past on this page have concurred with this view, which is also supported by policy, as I pointed out above. We cannot have individual editors deciding what shows discrimination or deciding that something is a men's rights issue. As somebody pointed out earlier, saying we don't need the connection made in the reliable sources leaves open to somebody claiming that since menhave fewer jean styles available to them as compared to women, they are discriminated against and this is a men's rights issue. It's an farcical example but not so far from the truth. In this article we have already taken out claims about refugees, social security, parental leaves etc which nobody but individual editors had thought were violations of men's rights or discriminatory.--Slp1 (talk) 00:17, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that a separate claims article is likely a bad idea, but do think that an MRM one would be a good start towards a non-totally worthless article. And I also agree with Slp1 here - using your theoretical study to support such a claim would absolutely be an example of improper synthesis (and also, probably, an inappropriate use of a primary source, unless it was a meta-analysis/review article.) When I have more time later on, I'll explain in more detail if you'd like, but I think that your example is really a pretty straightforward violation of WP:SYNTH. Kevin Gorman (talk) 03:58, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I would very much like to hear your reasoning in more detail, though I think my previous statement may not have been as clear as I would like. I'm not proposing that we use the sources to draw conclusions that are not in the sources themselves. However, if we have sources that say that women initiate most divorces and that it is a men's rights issue, it would be acceptable to use numbers from a general-purpose study on who initiates divorces. If we limit ourselves to studies that are specifically about the MRM, we run the risk of limiting ourselves to potentially biased sources. I'm just proposing using the nonspecific studies to provide numbers and statistics, not to draw conclusions from them. We use arguments that sources themselves use. To quote WP:SYNTH, "'A and B, therefore C' is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article." The Wordsmith 17:18, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Opposition research cannot be the basis for an article. Arkon (talk) 21:32, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Rename article to Men's Rights Movement, also serious article issues

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trying to address scope of article, as well as issues with the use of sources when it comes to describing the subject. A lot of the sources come from other than the subject of the article, rather than self-declarations, and I feel this is causing problems with the article's tone, as well as WP:SYNTH issues.

--JasonMacker (talk) 14:14, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm proposing that this article be renamed to Men's Rights Movement, because the current scope of the article is only dealing with the men's rights movement. In the lede, it states:

• Men's rights have been the subject of a variety of social and political movements, including men's liberation, profeminists, mythopoetic men's movement, gay male liberation, Promise Keepers, men's rights movement, and antifeminism.

So how come there is ZERO information in the article about all those things, except for the men's rights movement? In the Issues section it blatantly states "men's rights movement" and doesn't say anything about all the rest of the things associated with men's rights.

If someone wants to counter with WP:SOFIXIT, I wanted to open this up to discussion because of the Talk:Men's rights/Article probation and see users more experienced than me give their ideas on this. I can see this going two ways:

• Men's Rights, sans Men's Rights Movement, is a notable enough subject that it deserves its own article.

• Men's Rights should not give WP:UNDUE weight to only one aspect of it (namely, the Men's Rights Movement), and not also discuss antifeminism, profeminism, and other things associated with Men's Rights. Especially since the Men's Rights Movement isn't a mainstream accepted movement, so how come the are granted a monopoly on the term "Men's Rights"?

Content

As far as reliable sources go, I must say that some of them are no good, and I'm going to start removing them in a few days if nobody pipes up with a good reason to keep them. Here's a breakdown based on section:

Divorce

First sentence seems okay, but the second sentence seems off.

• Rich Doyle wrote of the view...

Who is Rich Doyle and why does his opinion matter? He doesn't have a Wiki Article, and a Google search doesn't bring up anyone with prominence.

The next paragraph begins:

• Laws and practices regarding spousal support, maintenance or alimony vary considerably by country and culture...

This paragraph seems out of place. Okay, it's just a bunch of facts about alimony. What does this have to do with Men's Rights or the Men's Rights Movement? Is there anyone notable within the MRM who is using these facts to argue for his/her cause? I say this paragraph should be taken right out unless someone can show me some relevancy.

The paragraph continues:

• In the United States, the current alimony laws are challenged for constitutionality, assignment of temporary vs. permanent financial support paid to a spouse, and fair and equitable treatment under family law; There are several men's rights crusades to reform alimony at a state and federal level, including Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Massachusetts, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Tennessee.

This statement is cited to

• Levitz, Jennifer. (October 31, 2009). "The New Art of Alimony." Wall Street Journal. Retrieved November 25, 2011.

Yet, this source makes NO mention of Men's rights or the Men's Rights Movement. Also, using the word "crusade" here seems a little bizarre and definitely not neutral.

The same citation is used for the following statement:

• Now that women make up a large percentage of the workforce, existing laws regarding alimony in the United States have come into question.

Come into question BY WHO? Again, the source doesn't mention Men's Rights or the Men's Rights Movement, so it seems strange to be using the passive voice here. And again, the paragraph this statement is in doesn't even provide context... all it does is state the facts about how the workforce is changing, but there is no mention of how this is relevant to the men's rights movement at all. If there are MRM leaders who take issue with this, they should be quoted and sourced. Simply presenting these "facts" is not enough; there needs to be relevance.

Anti-Dowry Movement

The section on the SIFF looks great as far as I can tell, except for that one unsourced statement with a citation needed tag. That needs to be removed but I'll give it a few days before it gets taken out.

Reproductive rights

This section entirely makes NO mention of Men's Rights or the Men's Rights movement. Is there anyone notable within the movement who has discussed reproductive rights in this context? Otherwise, this is WP:SYNTH and the only ones linking this issue with the Men's Rights Movement are the editors who added it to the article.

I say this section should also be removed entirely.

Adoption

First sentence is fine, but why is Oregon's adoption laws randomly brought up? Is there MRM presence in Oregon (or elsewhere) that is challenging these laws? Yet again, we're just presented with facts, and not why they are relevant.

Second sentence should be removed, and also MRM activists (or father's rights, whoever is taking up this cause or discussing it at all) need to actually have their views presented here.

Child Custody

• Family law is an area of deep concern among men's rights groups.

No source for this statement.

The rest of that paragraph is fine though, except for the last line. I think it should be changed to be front-loaded at the beginning of the section with the "Main Article: x" arrangement.

Second paragraph is also fine.

But then at the very end of this section, there is this:

• In the United States, fathers were awarded custody in 17.4 percent of cases in 2007, a percentage that has statistically not changed since 1994.

Again, we see some random fact being brought up without its relevance being linked. Needs to be taken out unless there is someone in the MRM specifically citing this fact as evidence.

Parental Abduction

Nothing of concern here.

Parental leave

No relevance to the MRM is being shown here. Also,

• The most liberal...

what/who is calling this "liberal"? Needs to be reworded or shown why a political term is needed here, especially when referring to countries.

I say this section should be struck out entirely, for the same reasons I've discussed earlier (no MRM rep tying it together).

Paternity fraud

No relevance to the MRM is established. Needs to be removed entirely.

Health

• They state that feminism has led to women's health issues being privileged at the expense of men's.

That's not what the source says:

• "In the language of men's rights organizations, the feminist-inspired privileging of women's health issues has relegated men to the sidelines of medical policies and condemned them to infirmity and premature death."

Why reword it? Why not just quote the source directly on this? Also, the MRM never said this directly. Rather, Susan B. Boyd the author of the source, is characterizing the men's rights organizations as saying this. This needs to be made clear (she doesn't have a wiki article and I don't see any sources which state that she is a men's rights activist or identifies as one). If a representative of the MRM is saying something, that should be made clear. If someone from outside is discussing the MRM, this should be made clear. Best way is to simply present the people who are saying things, and avoid just attributing everything to the "men's rights movement".

The rest of the paragraph is worse, using the word "they" when the sources are of people from outside the movement discussing the movement. The sources need to be properly used here.

The third paragraph also seems out of place, but this whole section is a mess so I think it's better to leave it alone until the first two paragraphs are fixed, then we can decide its relevancy.

Education

Okay, first sentence:

• Men's rights activists describe the education of boys as being in crisis, with boys having reduced educational achievement and motivation as compared to girls.

The source is an interview of Warren Farrell. As in, one person expressing his views on the issue. So why does this say "Men's rights activists" and not "Warren Farrell, a men's rights activist, blah blah"? And even then, there is no mention of "men's rights" or "men's rights movement" in the interview.

Second sentence:

"Advocates blame the influence of feminism on education for discrimination against and systematic oppression of boys in the education system."

Source does not say that. The book's description states:

• This book offers an illuminating analysis of the theories, politics, and realities of boys' education around the world -- an insightful and often disturbing account of various educational systems' successes and failings in fostering intellectual and social growth in male students. Examining original research on the impact of implementing boys' education programs in schools, the book also discusses the role of male teachers in educating boys, strategies for aiding marginalized boys in the classroom, and the possibilities for gender reform in schools that begins at the level of pedagogy. Complete with case studies of various classrooms, school districts, and governmental policy programs, the detailed essays collected provide a look into education's role in the development of masculinities, paying special attention to the ways in which these masculinities intersect with race, class, and sexuality to complicate the experience of boys within and outside of a classroom setting.

No mention of men's rights, no mention of men's rights advocates, no mention of the men's rights movement, and no mention of feminism. None of the authors of the book, as far as I can tell, are related to the men's rights movement, nor has anyone made that relation. So again, even if it were the case that those topics are discussed in the book, we fall into the issue of people who aren't in the MRM describing it, and instead it being described as what the MRM represents itself as.

• They have also urged for clearer school routines, more traditional school structures, including single sex classes, and stricter discipline.

Again, the source is someone from outside the movement putting words into the MRM's mouth.

Final sentence:

• In Australia, men's rights discourse has influenced government policy documents; less impact has been noted in the United Kingdom, where feminists have historically had less influence on educational policy.

This is again sourced to the book I described earlier, so the same issues are rehashed here.

Military conscription

• Men's rights activists have argued that military conscription of men is an example of oppression of men.

That's not what the source states. Also, again, we have that article-wide issue of people putting words into the mouth of the MRM, and its not being described as such.

Second paragraph seems okay.

Governmental structures

• Men's rights groups have called for male-focused governmental structures to address issues specific to men and boys including education, health, work and marriage.

Again, this suffers from taking everything and WP:SYNTHing all together as one, singular, view of "men's rights groups" with no regard for the sources. The actual groups can be, and should be named here.

Domestic violence

• Since the late 1970s and 1980s men's rights activists have asserted, based on academic studies, that the incidence of domestic violence and murders committed by women is under-reported, partly due to men's reluctance to admit being victims.

This statement has three sources: two books, and a Guardian article. The Guardian article is great, because it specifically offers the POV of men's rights activists straight from themselves. However, the first book, "Politics of Masculinity", isn't even on the same subject. The citation links to a section on gay pornography. And the second one, seems fine but it's a misrepresentation because it's clear that it's being critical of the MRM, yet this isn't mentioned.

Also, this section in general isn't providing enough context. It jumps from MRM groups in India to the United States without even mentioning it.

Allegations of rape

• and have campaigned to increase the level of evidence required to support rape and domestic violence cases.

The statement here is sourced twice, but I'm concerned about the second one. This book, "Men and Masculinities", doesn't even mention the phrase "men's rights activists". Instead, it gives a list of various organizations and categorizes them as antifeminist. This should be noted in the article here.

• They protest the naming of accused rapists while providing the accuser with anonymity.

The source doesn't mention MR or MRM. And "they" is problematic on its own.

Social security and insurance

Again with problems about someone assigning positions/words to the MRM instead of the MRM itself speaking on the issue. Wording needs to reflect that. The part with Warren Farrel is exactly what I'm talking about, in terms of how this ought to be done.

Female privilege =

This section seriously lacks context. Are MRM claiming that male privilege no longer exists worldwide, or are they limiting this claim to certain societies, or something else? The source isn't clear on it. Perhaps a better source can clarify this?

History

Why is this at the end of the article, and not at the beginning as is standard format? Don't have much to say about it though.

Overall

When someone makes a claim, that someone needs to be identified, rather than simply be described as a "men's rights advocate". This can definitely become a great article as long as the positions of MRM activists are made clear and distinct from outsiders speaking about the MRM. This seems to be an systemic issue of this subject in general because it seems that the people who actually make up the movement are laymen, while the ones who are describing the movement have academic backgrounds. This dichotomy should be exemplified in this article. Misplaced Pages:FRINGE should provide helpful guidance as to handling this issue.

For the sake of clarity, please don't respond within the comments I have made, and instead respond below and reference the section. Thanks. I'm going to leave this up for a few days, if nobody bites, I'm going to WP:BOLD and make all the changes myself.--JasonMacker (talk) 14:06, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

• Support Overall I largely agree.--v/r - TP 15:37, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Support (Uninvolved editor responding to RfC.) in general-- but perhaps with more structure than suggested:

Prevailing Usage and lack of authoritative sources

It seems that, overwhelmingly, the term is used to refer to child custody matters and, secondarily with domestic violence as relates to child custody.

• Problematic with sourcing is that those groups are almost entirely Internet-based and lack of common affiliation.
• For example, a typical Men's Rights group will have an Internet presence, established by attorneys or local bar associations, have no meetings, no office, the membership is usually unknown, and members or supporters are affiliated only for as long as a custody battle is being waged.
• Because custody and domestic violence concerns vary by State law and local court procedures, little unity has been attempted, so there are few recognized authorities.

Anecdotal and Statistical verses Organizational Research

I do not have the sources at hand, but researched this a bit a few years ago:

• 1) US government statistics on domestic violence are taken from Women's Shelter intakes, and therefore do not directly include statistics for male victims of DV.
• 2) US Federal funding provides County-level courts which are restricted to enforcing and increasing child support, but forbidding decreasing child support or enforcing custody. Such matters are anecdotal to the article-- and that seem the problem-- they do not apply to an organization, or an authority to be sourced.

Probably thousands of men's rights groups exist, and yet there is no umbrella under which they fall, no equivalent of the National Organization for Women; and so we are left with an article attempting to define a broad range of issues, of which only a few have any organizational efforts, and virtually none have common organizational support-- and that leaves the article in this scattered state.

Have I re-stated the problem with useful accuracy?

cregil (talk) 16:46, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support rename, and a lot of the rest of what you say. I've thought a rename was a good idea for quite a while. Disagree on one set of points: it's okay to use sources outside of the men's rights movement to describe the men's rights movement. We have no policy that suggests that we should only use statements of people inside of a movement to describe the movement. We should use statements made outside of the MRM to describe the MRM in this article for two reasons: first, WP:NPOV requires it, and second - there just aren't enough reliable sources written from within the MRM to write a solid article using them. I'm not saying all the current instances where it's done are appropriate (in general, I think it's better to trash about 90% of this article and start over,) but there are certainly instances where it is appropriate and necessary.

There's a good example of appropriate use of non-MR sources talking about MR in the education section: when the last sentence (about Australia vs the UK) was originally added, I was skeptical of it, so I went and checked the source. The source explicitly and completely supports the sentence: it explicitly says that men's rights discourse has had a large effect on Australian education politics, but less of an effect on UK education politics. The publisher of the book is Taylor & Francis, an academic press. It's a high quality reliable source that explicitly supports the statement that it makes, which is an interesting and encyclopedic bit about men's rights discourse w/r/t education that couldn't easily be sourced to any author or organization inside the MRM. (It's also a good example of why you have to actually look up citations, not just their abstracts or book summaries. The summary of the book doesn't mention men's rights, but the page cited does.) And it doesn't, by our policy, matter that the authors are not identified as being part of men's rights discourse themselves, as long as they meet our standards for reliability (and as academics they do) and their text explicitly supports the citation. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:43, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the input people. I want to give it at least until this weekend so that editors at peak hours have a chance to give their input before I start nuking the article. Also, Gorman, what I was trying to say is that we should model this article more similarly to the New antisemitism article. I think a great takeaway from that article is that there's no "proponents vs critics" sort of dichotomy. Instead, each person who says something is personally identified, and there's no "identity politics" factor of grouping a whole bunch of people with separate opinions/insights together. This, to me, seems to best way to avoid WP:SYNTH. Here in the Men's Rights article, instead of identifying people, we have "Men's rights activists say x", rather than "gender studies scholar Y considers the men's rights movement to be Z." which would be a more accurate telling of the sources.--JasonMacker (talk) 04:18, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

The best way to approach this depends largely on the specific example involved. I am generally a fan of explicitly naming sources when the material involved is explicitly opinion (that's not held by a majority of reliable sources,) but it's not necessary in all other instances. If a recognized scholar in the field of men's studies/some related field says "The men's rights movement is misogynistic" or "The men's rights movement is a necessary counterbalance to gender feminism" then we should only include that with an explicit mention of who they are. But if the statement in a reliable source is more to the effect of "The modern men's rights movement has had significant effect on public policy in Australia," then attributing that statement to a specific source is generally not necessary, it's okay just to say that in the article as fact. There's a specific policy that backs this idea up, but I can't think of it offhand - I'll dig it out tomorrow or so if you'd really like. (And to reiterate, I do agree with you that a lot of this article needs to basically be trashed. And I do agree that some things currently in the article should be attributed to specific sources/people that are not - I just don't think all should be.)

As a secondary note: I'll be slow in responding to anything for the next week, because I'm flying out to DC for Wikimania. The same will be true of many other people who would normally be commenting here. I might suggest leaving any decision on whether or not to move the article open until the 20th or so for this reason. (I do strongly support moving the article and most of the other changes you suggest, but the last RfC closed in favor of keeping the article at it's current title, so it's probably best to wait until after Wikimania concludes to make sure that most interested contributors have the opportunity to comment here before making a decision.)

Another thing that may be a good idea would be to start a user-space draft of what an article on the men's rights movement would look like before simply renaming this article, that all here could contribute to. That way when a rename does happen, the new article would instantly be better. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:57, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'm definitely the sort of "measure twice, cut once" type of person so I have no problem waiting until after the 20th to actually change the article. I'm thinking about using my sandbox to make my proposed changes and I'll post a link to it here once I finish it. Have fun at Wikimania.--JasonMacker (talk) 09:27, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support rename. It is clear that the subject of this article is the men's rights movement (as it always has been). By moving the article, it will allow people who want to cite MRM sources more latitude and will cause fewer conflicts about Original Research (since a lot of MRM talking points aren't really related to "men's rights" sensu stricto). Thus it seems like a win-win situation for everyone. Kaldari (talk) 22:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support rename. I'm on holiday with no computer and very limited internet. So this is just a placeholder for a longer comment towards the end of the week. I too support a rename, and agree with Kevin's concerns about some of Jason's suggestions. In particular those regarding attribution, that the best sources for the article are in fact secondary ones, where academics (for example) who have researched the movement synthesize information about them, not MRM primary sources and that some of the material stated not to be in the source given is in fact there. I will elaborate later.Slp1 (talk) 18:06, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, a quick follow up on some of Jason's proposals.

• Firstly, I agree with a lot of what Jason says about sections (e.g divorce, reproductive rights) that need massive reworking or deletion. I started work on better sourcing and removing original research from the bottom sections, but got discouraged at a certain point. I do think it is better to try to rewrite/rework the sections that just delete them, as there are sources out there for most of them.
• Next, we have to go with what the high quality reliable sources say, and the fact is that when you look for information about "men's rights", 99% is about the men's rights movement/activism. Try it, and you will see what I mean. There doesn't seem to be a subject "men's rights" which is independent of the movement or claims (unless you count very old references to "men's rights" used in much the same way as we use "human rights" these days. e.g . For that reason I support the rename, but I would just like to make clear that I don't think that there should then be separate "men's rights" page created. Based on reliable sources men's rights do not appear to be a notable subject separate from the MRM, and thus there would be clear issues of WP:POVFORK.
• As stated above by Kevin and myself, secondary academic scholarly sources are the best sources for information, and we do not need to attribute these mainstream claims to their source. Indeed, doing so can be a way of inserting POV by attempting to minimize or marginalize a viewpoint. Primary sources such Men's rights groups are not required or even very desirable given our sourcing policies see WP:V and WP:NOR.
• I've checked some of the claims that material is unverifiable and find that it isn't all together accurate. For example, the information about conscription being seen as a sign of oppression can be found exactly as cited , and Kevin has pointed out some other examples. On the other hand, checking all the refs is a good idea. I've corrected one clearly erroneous that I probably added through careless cutting and pasting of references. Sorry all. Slp1 (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• No opinion. I tried this before, and would like to know why opinions changed. Arkon (talk) 00:06, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think any of the people who have said rename here have previously held different positions, although I'm not sure. I know I've always supported the idea of moving it. Last time consensus was against the idea, but a lot of the people who participated in previous discussions aren't participating here so far, and consensus can change. I think that the article will have a much greater chance of improvement at a MRM specific title than at MR generally, especially because it will resolve most undue weight issues and allow the use many more sources dealing with the MRM than this article title does (since it would allow things like self-published sources from prominent MRM groups to be used.) Previous talk page attempts at a rename can be found here and here, although I think there's at least one discussion that I'm leaving out. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:24, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I have consistently supported the move. No changed opinions here. Slp1 (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose: the problem with the article is that everything is attributed to "The men's movement..." or "Men's rights groups..." or "Men's right's activists..." The discussion of basic human rights for men in the article has been reduced to pathetic men whining for special treatment. We need to review the sources and rewrite the article so that this POV is removed. The POV that there is no such thing as men's rights---only complaining by disgruntled deadbeat fathers.– Lionel 08:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• The problem with your suggestion is that per WP:V we have to follow what reliable sources say and use about the subject of men's rights; and the fact is that in virtually every "men's rights" search for reliable sources I have done, the sources found attribute claims to men's rights activists, the MRM etc. Obviously WP can't turn around and make those claims in its editorial voice without that attribution. That would really would be a violation of WP:NPOV, which requires us to "carefully and critically analyzing a variety of reliable sources and then attempting to convey to the reader the information contained in them clearly and accurately.". Slp1 (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

(already supported, above) A thought... Given the experiences of the contributors, and especially in concern for those who opposed, is there any way forward for a Men's Rights article which is divorced from the sometimes marginalizing characterizations of activism and hate groups?--cregil (talk) 02:07, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, it all has to start with research and finding the best sources and then writing a good encyclopedic summary from there. It is a serious mistake to start by having ideas about the content, tone etc without first doing the research to find out what is out there to summarize. The latter route leads to an incomplete, POV article. I'm not exactly clear what your idea is, cregil, but as I've said a few times, in the sources I've seen "men's rights" are rarely, if ever, divorced from MR activism and activists, so I don't think that part of your suggestion is possible. However, based on informal research I think the sources are clear that there are a variety of opinions within the men's rights movement; and I can't remember seeing the term "hate groups" in any of the reliable sourced literature, so I doubt that has to be included. But it all has to start with sources, and more sources. --Slp1 (talk) 02:39, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I am in agreement. To clarify, I researched a bit on this subject a few years back. I received an email from a British author of a book on the subject, suggesting I might wish to do some research. What I found of strictly "Men's Rights" was local legal resource sites for men who were victims of spousal abuse and men who were unable to enforce custody of their children. Those groups also tended to help with determining paternity and such other matters which did not specifically address rights, or lack thereof. Attorneys tend to run the sites with men they are helping or have helped doing clerical work as volunteers, essentially having little more than a web presence.

There are countless such sites, all very similar. Beyond that, there were two books out contemporary to my research: one from a female journalist and the other by the British man. Just like the contributors to this article, I found too little "meat" -- no centralized organizational structure- and so no strong voice. I interviewed a couple of attorneys, local to me, and was given the impression that the many such organizations have neither the time nor the funding to organize-- instead attempt to hold classes on how to represent oneself, file motions, and basically make legal action as affordable as possible for men-- as juxtaposed to virtually unlimited resources for women-- at least by comparison.

So, the Men's Rights groups are out there, but the "sources" were a thousand voices saying and doing the same thing-- all anecdotal. I think it is important, but that Men's Rights has no voice is not Misplaced Pages's fault-- or responsibility. I just wish it were otherwise-- my conscience is bothering me.--cregil (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support rename. Not just because the article is already written about the men's rights movement but because – as Slp1 points out above – that is what you find if you search for "men's rights". The previous RfC about a rename proposal took place last year and ended with an inexplicable decision. Only a few people voted oppose while the clear majority presented persuasive arguments in favor of a rename, but the closing admin must have overlooked those. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 23:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

By my reading, this RFC should be closed with a consensus to move the article. If no one objects to this, I'll write up a longer closing statement and carry out the close in the near future. (If anyone wants to beat me to it, feel free :)) Kevin Gorman (talk) 06:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Given everything, I think it would be better if we got someone uninvolved to determine consensus and close it up. Killerchihuahua was watching over this from an admin perspective; I think I'll ping them and ask it they might do it. I hope that is okay. --Slp1 (talk) 22:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Anti-feminism?

I highly doubt that the majority of men's rights supporters are anti-feminist. The entire idea of men's rights is that men and women should be equals. If not, then women's rights should be described as an umbrella term, including "anti-masculism", as well as women's suffrage, lesbian rights, etc. The entire gender equality debate is far from equal and fair. yonnie (talk) 14:25, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The article doesn't say that a majority of men's rights supporters are anti-feminist; it says that men's rights has been the focus of a number of social movements, including anti-feminist ones. Besides the (kind of haphazard) cites already in the article, this claim is explicitly supported by "Messner, Michael. Politics of masculinities : men in movements. Thousand Oaks, Calif: Sage Publications, 1997, pg42." It doesn't matter what the article on women's rights says; we go by what sources say, not by some sort of weird forced equality. If sources treat subjects differently, than so do we. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:49, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Then I guess the issue is much bigger than what's on Misplaced Pages. The double standard is appalling. Maybe Misplaced Pages needs to reconsider what it considers "neutral sources". yonnie (talk) 23:22, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

If you think there's an appalling error or horribly incorrect point of view in multiple sources that meet our reliability standards, then the easiest way to fix it it to go write a book (and get it published through a reputable press,) or an academic journal article or something else that meets our standards for reliability that explains what the error is and why it's an error. You could go to WP:VPP or another appropriate forum and try to suggest a change to our sourcing policies, but our sourcing policies are difficult to convince people to change, and I'm honestly not sure what standard could be set that would exclude Messner or some of the other sources used here anyway - Messner is a professor at USC writing within his own field in a book published by a reputable press.

Tangentially, I cited the wrong page number. The statement in Messner's book that supports the statement you object to is found on page 41, not 42. (I haven't looked indepth at the citations for the statement that are already in the article, but I'd imagine they support it too.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Improper closure of discussion regarding a move of this article

As one who did not take part in the discussion about moving this article (see above), I am deeply concerned about the procedure adopted. The settled way to decide on a page move is through the mechanism of WP:RM. This correct procedure was followed in November 2011 (see archived RM). The proposed title then was the same as this time around, except with capitalisation that accords with WP:MOSCAPS ("Men's rights movement"). The closing admin's summation (with my underlining):

The result of the move request was: not moved. The article has changed significantly since the majority of the comments were posted. The majority of the current article is not about the men's rights movement per se. A new move request may be proposed, although a separate article on the movement itself (separate from the rights) would probably be a less contentious undertaking. Aervanath (talk) 03:49, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Disregarding established procedures, admin KillerChihuahua (whose impartiality has not been demonstrated) closed the irregular discussion with this wording (again with my underlining):

Result of the discussion is to Move (rename); regarding the other items, the result is slightly less clear. There seems to be broad general support for the suggested changes, but there is considerably less discussion and views are not as clear. I suggest you move the article, then boldly make each of the discussed edits/changes one at a time. Should there be dissent, then that change should be discussed and a resolution found. Suggest you not attempt to combine multiple content issues in one discussion, but have a separate discussion for each issue (again, this is if there is dissent.)

This amounts to a subversion, unwitting or not, of due process. In prejudicial language. The proposed move was not advertised to the community in the expected way, so many editors who would have contributed here may not have done so. It also defies a ruling by the closing admin on the "official" RM last time (see what I have underlined).
I call on KillerChihuahua to revise or remove her closure and comments of the recent discussion; and I call on editors not to move the page without a new RM conducted by the protocols of WP:RM. It would be entirely fair for any premature move to be reverted, by whoever wants to do that.

♥
Noetica 02:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

This discussion has been open since 10 July; ad there is zero need for RM when the article already has competent editors who can move it. You state you have no opinion; then your complaint is procedural, and I assure you there is no strict procedure for this. You are tilting at windmills. the only reason I didn't move the darn thing already is because I was called away. Now I return to find my ethics are being called into question? This is surprising to say the least. RM is only for when you canNOT move the page yourself. There is no "procedure" one must follow. KillerChihuahua 02:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Killer:

"This discussion has been open since 10 July; ad there is zero need for RM when the article already has competent editors who can move it."

Sheer opinion. Why have an established RM process, if it is not necessary to use it even when an admin has said that is what ought to be done (in closing the 2011 RM)?

"You state you have no opinion; then your complaint is procedural, and I assure you there is no strict procedure for this."

And I can assure you that you are wrong. Check WP:RM, and check another admin's ruling on closing the 2011 RM. You do not show any justification for acting against that procedural ruling. Such an action has recently come before ArbCom, with the result that one admin lost his admin rights.

"You are tilting at windmills."

You compound your offences with gratuitous incivility.

"Now I return to find my ethics are being called into question?"

Now, yes. ☺

"RM is only for when you canNOT move the page yourself. There is no 'procedure' one must follow."

A curious opinion. Do you have any others to declare? Care to test this one at WT:RM?

Noetica 03:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Please cite the ArbCom ruing you think I am going against. Please be concise. KillerChihuahua 03:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I note (not without irony) that you probably mean "precise". This recent ArbCom case. I commend the whole of the final decision to you, for your careful and reflective consideration. Noetica 07:19, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

No, by god, I mean concise! You quoted me (a post which was clear to link to and on the same page) at length, and gave a wall of text with a ton of whitespace the first 2 posts you made in this section. I meant concise. Which finding of that case? KillerChihuahua 11:28, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

KC, I find myself wondering whether you've carefully perused the recent discussion and last year's RM. And this statement is a problem: "RM is only for when you canNOT move the page yourself." RMs are proper and useful where there's a likelihood that editors will want to discuss the proposal, even if, technically, the page could be moved without community input. I came here after seeing your unexplained but very possibly WP:POINTY and threatening post on Noetica's talk page. Disappointing. Tony (talk) 03:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

My post on his page was in response to his posts here. Requesting he move forward with this is quite reasonable, given that now that he has raised the issue there needs to be either withdrawal (by him) or resolution (by others.) I fail to see how that is in any way POINTy, as it disrupts nothing and requests that rather than threatening me to take it to ANI, he do so, as is appropriate. KillerChihuahua 03:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Adding: it is completely beyond my comprehension how that could be taken as "threatening". I was asked to come here, I did what I was asked to do, and now I'm getting grief from both of you for doing what I was asked to do. If anyone felt further input was needed, it would have been preferable to say so during the past month. External input is not generally sought for decisions about a page, those decisions are generally handled by the regular editors of that page, and outside input sought only if that fails, However, no one brought it up then. Failing that, Noetica could have raised concerns in a civil fashion, rather than "calling on me" to recerse myself and making wild accusations. There was no need to approach any concerns in such an insulting and accusatory fashion. Your framing of my post on her page as "threatening" or "pointy" is ... I have no words. This is an astonishing reaction to an admin responding to a request. KillerChihuahua 03:50, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

the more I think about this the more astonished I am. His very first post to me about this insults and accuses me, and concludes "I hope I don't have to take this to ANI" and my response "Waiting on you" is a THREAT? Tony, I thought you had better judgment than that. KillerChihuahua 03:55, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm frankly boggled by the suggestion that a formal RfC with almost universal agreement closed by an uninvolved administrator is not a sufficient process to move an article. Trying to procedurally disagree with a consensus to move a page established by a formal RfC is borderline ludicrous. Any editor with an interest in this topic who wanted to comment has had ample opportunity to comment: there was a formal RfC open for the maximum duration of a formal RfC (the tag itself was removed by a bot) and the RfC discussion itself was open for literally more than a month. Anyone who wanted to comment on this article who had it watchlisted, who looked at RfCs, or who even looked at the article at least once a month had plenty of opportunity to reply. (Coincidentally, I don't see anything at WP:UNINVOLVED that suggests that administrators who are uninvolved on the surface need to somehow conclusively demonstrate their impartiality, especially in a case like this where any reasonable reading of consensus would agree with their reading. And I see nothing in Aer's original decision that would contradict KC's decision in anywhere near a substantial enough way as to invalidate it, especially given the year+ gap between them.)

If you want to take this to ANI, please go ahead and take it to ANI. But please go ahead and do so now if you feel it needs to be done. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:43, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. There was nothing "irregular" about the discussion. Page moves have been decided on article talk pages since the beginning of Misplaced Pages. Personally, I think WP:RM is the more "irregular" of the two options, but both are valid means of seeking consensus for an article move. Kaldari (talk) 04:55, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, it is irregular to bypass the RM process if the article has already entered that process – and, as in this case, the closing admin had said "a new move request may be proposed". Most people expect that such directives will be followed, and many look out for further RMs on the same article at the usual location: WP:RM. I gave my opinion at the last "official" RM, and I did not think I would have to look anywhere other than WP:RM for any follow-up. That was a reasonable expectation, especially given the closing remarks that time. I have no opinion on the present version of the proposal, considering what new evidence and argument might have been exhibited; I, and others who watch RM activity closely, had no reason to suspect that things might proceed this way, without any open presentation to the community at WP:RM. One thing is certain: the styling with capitals has not been considered by MOS specialists. Given the forking in procedural paths, must that issue now go to a third consultation of community opinion? Very messy. Why did Killer not attend to this styling difference between the "official" RM and this irregular one? That is something an admin judging these matters ought to be on top of. Finally, how does any page move issuing from the recent process fit with the newly instituted review process for RMs (see Misplaced Pages:Move review)? A sort of "constitutional crisis" – and one that would be completely unnecessary if there had been continuity of process with the "official" RM of 2011, as the closing admin seems to have determined would be the way to go.

♥

Noetica 07:12, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Where is this "formal RfC with almost universal agreement closed by an uninvolved administrator"? I don't see it. Neotarf (talk) 09:58, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Above. the darn thing was open so darn ling that the bot removed the tags. That's why I was asked to close it. KillerChihuahua 11:09, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's above. . I agree that there is no problem with this RFC. The previous closer explicitly stated that a new discussion could be held, and it was. A new editor set up a properly advertised article RFC (which is amazing enough in itself) which attracted outside editors, ran for a full month, and now has been closed by an independent administrator. I'd also note that despite Noetica saying they had no opinion on the topic now, they opposed the move at the last move discussion. . Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy, and there is no need or rule for RM's to follow Noetica's preferred procedure. Slp1 (talk) 11:11, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

−

You do realize there is more than one way to do most things on Misplaced Pages, Noetica? Take deletion. If I see an article which falls under SD criteria, I can delete it, no tag needed. Or someone ele could see it and tag it. Or it could go through prod, or Afd. The same with moves. Even if a prior request had been made at RM, I could move without even a formal Rfc, if I were bold and thought the editors of the page would generally agree with me, and I would not be breaking process at all, let alone causing a "constitutional crisis". Really, truly. Someone might tell me I'd been a bit hasty, and should have sought consensus, but that's all. And this is more than enough process for this move to happen. If you really want to be sure you are included on any page's major (and minor) changes, you will watchlist that page. Any other method will not work. Pages are moved, merged, and even deleted without showing up on pages like RM, and Afd. KillerChihuahua 11:19, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I see now that you've been told before, when you expressed concerns "procedure" was't followed at an Rm that we're not big on process here, and rms are often reversed in later discussions.User_talk:Noetica#A_fresh_RM_can_be_opened_at_any_time and the linked discussion shows me that you have a problem accepting that there is no one right procedure for moves. I'm sorry if it upsets you, but allow me to confirm that is the case. Not only can a fresh Rm be opened, but also this can be done by Rfc (as here) or with simple discussion on the talk page, or even boldly by one editor. KillerChihuahua 11:51, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

KC, a more collegial style of talk-page engagement would be much appreciated. Tony (talk) 12:46, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. I object to be accused of "serious impropriety" and breaking process and having what was clearly meant to be a threat to "take this to ANI" - as though ANI were a stick to beat me with - on the first communication from Noetica; I object to my request to please do so in order to resolve this as "POINTy" and "threatening" by you; I request that you specify what part of my post above to which you are replying you find non-informative and non-collegiate. It seems obvious based on posts here and elsewhere Noetica is laboring under the impression that there is a strict procedure to be followed for page moves. I am seeking to disabuse him of this false impression and explain, as lucidly as I can, that this is not the case. To what in that do you object? Please be specific. KillerChihuahua 13:47, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is beginning to look more and more irregular. First, I don't see it listed either at WP:Requests for comment/All or WP:Centralized discussion/Archive or at WP:Administrator's noticeboard, where the person closing would be expected to review, summarize, and announce the results of the discussion. A template seems to have been placed for the discussion but I don't see the "brief, neutral statement of the issue below the template".

Also the advice to "keep your statement or question simple and succinct, so that the RfC attracts a clear and actionable response" does not seem to have been followed, since, the section that is supposed to be the RFC is titled "Rename article to Men's Rights Movement, also serious article issues". The lead sentence of the section is "Trying to address scope of article, as well as issues with the use of sources when it comes to describing the subject," which makes it look like some sort of content discussion. Nowhere in the section title does it say either "Requested Move" or "Request for comment".

More problems appear in the discussion. It appears the proposal is to change both the content and the title of the article. Why not just start a new article? Some of the comments address the title; others address the content. Yet, how can you reach consensus on a title without knowing what the article is about? This same problem was noted in the previous RM, which was the reason the article was not moved at that time. As a side note, I count 30 editors participating in the previous RM, but only 7 in the above "Rename article to Men's Rights Movement, also serious article issues" section.

Ah, I think I have found the original RFC statement now. Diff: "Trying to address scope of article, as well as issues with the use of sources when it comes to describing the subject. A lot of the sources come from other than the subject of the article, rather than self-declarations, and I feel this is causing problems with the article's tone, as well as WP:SYNTH issues." A move request is not mentioned here. Also the OP stated the intention of making the changes to the article within a few days, but has not yet done so. Where does this leave the article content with respect to the title?

Yes, KillerChihuahua has been asked to do something, but admins are not under any obligation to honor every request made of them. At this point it is now clear that the title change is a potentially controversial proposal (and WP:TITLECHANGES is probably a better policy to cite here) and that the RFC, if that's what it was, should be properly closed. Then a proper RM should be submitted per WP:TITLE, preferably after reaching a consensus about the article content.

Regards, Neotarf (talk) 14:16, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: the post below was a reply prior to this change. KillerChihuahua 14:48, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Without addressing the rest of your comment,s on Misplaced Pages Move and Rename are synonyms, so the fact that the primary topic under consideration was a move is in the very subject line. KillerChihuahua 14:28, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

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