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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 13 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Request for closure review

(Initiated 10 days ago on 16 December 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 80 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines#Request_for_comment:_Do_the_guidelines_in_WP:TPO_also_apply_to_archived_talk_pages?

(Initiated 71 days ago on 16 October 2024) Discussion seems to have petered out a month ago. Consensus seems unclear. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Needs admin closure imho, due to its importance (guideline page), length (101kb), and questions about neutrality of the Rfc question and what it meant. Mathglot (talk) 21:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

And in true Streisand effect fashion, this discussion, quiescent for six weeks, has some more responses again. Mathglot (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

{{doing}} voorts (talk/contributions) 23:35, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Oops; I put this in the wrong section. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:30, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 59 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Grey_Literature

(Initiated 47 days ago on 10 November 2024) Discussion is slowing significantly. Likely no consensus, personally. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 was very clearly rejected. The closer should try to see what specific principles people in the discussion agreed upon if going with a no consensus close, because there should be a follow-up RfC after some of the details are hammered out. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:10, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... —Compassionate727  13:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Compassionate727: Still working on this? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:18, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Ugh… in practice, no. I'm still willing to do it, but it's in hiatus because of the three(!) pending challenges of my closures at AN, while I evaluate to what extent I need to change how I approach closures. If somebody else wants to take over this, they should feel free. —Compassionate727  22:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Taking a pause is fair. Just wanted to double check. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

asking for an update if possible. I think this RFC and previous RFCBEFORE convos were several TOMATS long at this point, so I get that this might take time. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#RFC_on_signing_RFCs

(Initiated 43 days ago on 13 November 2024) - probably gonna stay status quo, but would like a closure to point to Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

•  Closed. Soni (talk) 21:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Check Your Fact

(Initiated 43 days ago on 13 November 2024) RfC has elapsed, and uninvolved closure is requested. — Red-tailed sock _{(Red-tailed hawk's nest)} 15:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#RfC: Should a bot be created to handle AfC submissions that haven't changed since the last time they were submitted?

(Initiated 41 days ago on 15 November 2024) This RfC expired five days ago, has an unclear consensus, I am involved, and discussion has died down. JJP_Master (she/they) 22:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#RfC Indian numbering conventions

(Initiated 40 days ago on 16 November 2024) Very wide impact, not much heat. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

•  Closed – Consensus seems clear, I don't think my Indian-ness poses a WP;COI here, closed. Soni (talk) 22:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of fictional countries set on Earth#RfC on threshold for inclusion

(Initiated 36 days ago on 20 November 2024) TompaDompa (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 34 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (music)#RfC about the naming conventions for boy bands

(Initiated 18 days ago on 8 December 2024) No further participation in the last 7 days. Consensus is clear but I am the opener of the RfC and am not comfortable closing something I am so closely involved in, so would like somebody uninvolved to close it if they believe it to be appropriate.RachelTensions (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable closing a discussion on a guideline change this early. In any case, if the discussion continues as it has been, a formal closure won't be necessary. —Compassionate727  13:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading

Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 24#List of Chalcolithic cultures of China

(Initiated 58 days ago on 30 October 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 17#List of Neverwinter Nights characters

(Initiated 58 days ago on 30 October 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 24#Lu Tianna

(Initiated 54 days ago on 2 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 24#Shen an calhar

(Initiated 54 days ago on 2 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 21#unmentioned suikoden characters (episode 1: a-h)

(Initiated 42 days ago on 14 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 21#Clock/calendar

(Initiated 42 days ago on 14 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 December 14#File:The badge of the Military Order of the Serpent.png

(Initiated 37 days ago on 19 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 November 27#File:The Musician (Erling Blöndal Bengtsson) by Ólöf Pálsdóttir.jpg

(Initiated 29 days ago on 27 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 December 2#File:Batman superman.PNG ==

(Initiated 24 days ago on 2 December 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Est. 2021/sandbox/CURRENT

(Initiated 21 days ago on 5 December 2024) If there is consensus to do one of the history splitting operations but the closer needs help implementing it I would be willing to oblige. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 December 9#File:Golden Lion size.jpg

(Initiated 17 days ago on 9 December 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 December 9#File:Ang Panday 1986 animated series.jpg

(Initiated 17 days ago on 9 December 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 93 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 71 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Tesla Cybercab#Proposed merge of Tesla Network into Tesla Cybercab

(Initiated 69 days ago on 18 October 2024) This needs formal closure by someone uninvolved. N2e (talk) 03:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be better to leave that discussion be. There is no consensus one way or the other. I could close it as "no consensus," but I think it would be better to just leave it so that if there's ever anyone else who has a thought on the matter, they can comment in that discussion instead of needing to open a new one. —Compassionate727  14:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 59 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Stadion Miejski (Białystok)#Requested move 5 November 2024

(Initiated 51 days ago on 5 November 2024) RM that has been open for over a month. Natg 19 (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Move_review/Log/2024 November#Carousel (film)

(Initiated 48 days ago on 8 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 29 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Williamsburg Bray School#Splitting proposal

(Initiated 29 days ago on 27 November 2024) Only two editors—the nominator and myself—have participated. That was two weeks ago. Just needs an uninvolved third party for closure. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... BusterD (talk) 20:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2024 December 2#Rafael de Orleans e Bragança

(Initiated 25 days ago on 2 December 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Removal of topic ban

I, User: Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) am under a temporary ban from starting new articles until I go through past entries to look for copyrighted material that are too long for fair use. I have been through my archive and reworded passages that were too close to the source material or that were cut and pasted that were too long to be considered fair use. I am hoping the ban can be lifted so I can create new content. Hundreds of entries from the Library of Congress collaboration have not been added because of the ban. I am much more careful so that I do not add copyrighted content. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:15, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• It is helpful if you link to the original ban discussion (so we can see the original terms), as well as link to some of the articles you fixed, so that a determination can be made with full information. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:18, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• original topic ban thread at WP:AN November 2011
• Block discussion for violating topic ban July 2012

• Oppose No thank you. You're were back at it very recently, even though you were under the restriction. dangerouspanda 16:00, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Bans aren't supposed to be permanent punishment but are to be used to curb active bad behaviour. If I have gone through my material as requested, what then is the purpose of the topic ban? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose No thank you. - En Misplaced Pages has plenty of rubbish content without your cut and copy paste creations of low note subjects - better if you go and improve those that are already created and ignored by editors.Youreallycan 16:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Can you point out a "low note subject" that I copy and pasted? If a subject doesn't meet GNG it would have been deleted. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

You are the creator of a massive amount of articles, yes? - they mostly will be of low note - that is just a basic fact - all the high/medium notable stuff is already written about, Yes?- you have been copy pasting content to the En Misplaced Pages project , yes? - so ... Youreallycan 16:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? Terang Boelan, a mid-importance Indonesia article (higher if there were a Cinema of Indonesia project) was just created yesterday. That blanket statement may apply about topics regarding the West, but certainly not worldwide. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

In the process of writing a new piece on Howard Costigan, I just bumped into a former Mayor of Seattle who hasn't been written up. And he's not the only one. The mind boggles. YRC's obnoxious bile-spewing needs to come to an end. I sense that might be in the wind, fortunately. Carrite (talk) 18:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 18:09, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Youreallycan asks: all the high/medium notable stuff is already written about, Yes? I do not know about what constitutes notability to Youreallycan. But in terms of what constitutes notability to me, no. Off the top of my head: redlinked Sakubei Yamamoto (also spellable as Sakubee Yamamoto, Yamamoto Sakubei, Yamamoto Sakubee), recognized by UNESCO (see this and this) but seemingly not by Misplaced Pages. -- Hoary (talk) 09:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Can you point out at least one "low note subject" that I copy and pasted, instead of using the false logic you use above? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose removal of topic ban. Support someone with more administrative oomph than I have reminding Youreallycan that there's no need to be so sharp about it; a simple "no" would suffice and would not contribute to his already-notable history of unpleasant behavior in discussions. GJC 03:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

• I agree that YRC's comment was rather harsh, but you don't necessarily need an administrator to tell someone that they really ought to reflect on the potential ramifications of their words before saying them. Nevertheless, he is currently facing the prospect of an arbitration case over repeated comments of this nature. "Warning" him not to be so brusque at this point is not likely to alter his dispositions. Kurtis (talk) 10:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose given that you were blocked less than a month ago for violating the topic ban, removing it would appear to be attempting to achieve this via an alternative route. Black Kite (talk) 16:55, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - per the recent block. GiantSnowman 16:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose — per recent blocks and extensive block log. Thine Antique Pen (public) 17:10, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - Entirely too soon after coming off a block for violating the ban. You shot yourself in the foot by doing that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per Black Kite. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:28, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
• Given that this was a ban with a specific "ending" condition, if that ending condition has been met, are we now changing the ending condition? A topic ban shouldn't be used in this way IMO. If the issue with the topic is resolved it should be removed. If there are issues that exist outside of that topic, we should be blocking. If we _are_ going to extend a topic ban and _if_ the topic ban's ending condition has been met, we should specify the purpose of the ban so we know when to lift it. Hobit (talk) 14:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
  • So if someone subject to a topic ban ignores it and violates it, it is ok then? Particularly since they have been blocked twice in the last month, including for violating the topic ban? When someone disregards the terms of their sanction, it isn't a good place to complain about the completion of the said terms. It is understood that if you violate the terms of a sanction, those sanctions may be extended until a time the community feels comfortable removing them. Maybe next week, or next month, but not today. Violating the terms is yet another form of disruption, and since the purpose of any sanction is to prevent disruption, extending the ban for a while longer seems consistent with policy. Had he not violated the ban to begin with, this entire conversation would be moot, so be sure and point the finger in the proper direction. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Not saying it's okay. I'm saying a topic ban shouldn't be used as punishment. Does it really make sense to extend a topic ban because the topic ban was violated? "The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid an editor from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive, but to allow them to edit the rest of Misplaced Pages." I'm not seeing any evidence that extending this ban will be in service of that. But consensus is clearly toward continuing the ban thus far. Eh, if nothing else this will make a really good RfA question about how to appropriately use blocks and topic bans. Hobit (talk) 17:48, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The purpose of the topic ban is to prevent the problematic behavior and give the user a chance to demonstrate that they can contribute without engaging in the banned behavior. If they instead demonstrate that they cannot it serves a legitimate preventative purpose to uphold and extend the ban. 99% of users are not under any type of editing restriction, it is not that hard to avoid. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:53, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The relevant CCI case is here - it does not appear to be anywhere near cleared. Black Kite (talk) 19:09, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It is not cleared. I spent a fair amount of time working on it, and was working fairly well with the OP (at least I thought so), but we got bogged down on length_of_quote_in_reference_issues, which haven't yet been resolved, so I moved on to other tasks. I still hope to revisit the topic, if only because RAN is a prolific contributor, and I'd like to see him contributing again.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

CCI brought it upon themselves to some extent with an overbroad investigation. In my opinion, RAN needs to forever STOP glossing quoted paragraphs in footnotes. Footnote just the author, title, publication info, and page number — do NOT recreate the referenced paragraph or paragraphs. It's unnecessary, it bogs down the footnotes, and it pisses off the copyright sticklers, all three. Carrite (talk) 18:58, 14 August 2012 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 19:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

How would you restrict the investigation? The general rule is that if enough problems are found, everything must be checked. That's a lot in the case of RAN, but "overbroad" implies you think there is a way to limit it in some way. I'd be happy to find a way to limit the review, what did you have in mind?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Beeblebrox, I'm not certain I agree with you here. A topic ban should be there to prevent problems within the topic. *If* we believe he's not going to recreate the same problems (and has fixed the old ones) I don't think a topic ban makes sense--it's not preventing anything that I can see. That said, it sounds as if there is still a lot of clearing to do so the point is moot. I'd encourage RAN to work with Sphilbrick and others to help get that cleared... Hobit (talk) 15:29, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support - I think RAN is an outstanding content creator. I think the copyright concerns around him were either overblown, greatly overblown, or much ado about nothing given the tens of thousands of edits he has made over the years. Close paraphrase is gonna happen from time to time when one looks for it with a microscope. The big majority of his created articles were clean, and when he says he's going to be very serious about following copyright rules, I believe we can take him at his word. This topic ban (article creation) needs to be ended for the betterment of the project. Carrite (talk) 18:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Alternate proposal

Assuming that the concern is whether RAN can be trusted not to violate copyright with his new content creations, rather than the problem being some desire to punish the editor for past transgressions, I propose a six month trial period during which RAN shall be limited to not more than FIVE (5) new article starts per month (exclusive of redirects). This small number of starts may therefore be closely monitored for potential copyvio issues, with a block or restoration of the full ban forthcoming for any violation. Carrite (talk) 18:52, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• I think there are two issues. #1 He violated the topic ban recently and there seems to be a strong sense that asking to have the ban removed/reduced soon after having violated it isn't going to fly. #2 There do seem to be a few articles that haven't been fixed that have had copyright problems identified. RAN should try to tackle those first. I'd say fix the handful of articles that have identified and unfixed problems, work well with those who are identifying problems and come back in a month or so. I just don't see the community supporting this right now given the above discussion. Hobit (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I concur. I'm open minded, but fix the existing problems and allow a little time since his last violation of the terms before asking. No matter how prolific an editor is, we all have to abide by copyright policy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:58, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
    • I have to agree. Whether or not there was a recent violation I will leave to others to discern, but it appears he still has much work to finish fixing past violations. Copyright is just too serious to let go until the community is shown that he has taken enough action to fix these problems and show a real understanding of paraphrasing and copyright. I feel the topic ban should stand for now and perhaps this proposal for a trial period is a good idea when consensus is reached to end the snactions.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:47, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Role of admins in Pending Changes

Hoping for feedback from fellow admins; I think there's a danger here, for WP and for us individually, and I'd like to see us get out in front of this instead of being swept along with the tide. A recent RFA candidate was defeated largely over biteyness issues on one of their 50K edits. I couldn't help but notice that, in slightly different circumstances, the edit they reverted could have been seen as a negative unsourced addition to a BLP article, and in that case, not only would their revert have been okay, it would have been mandatory per BLP. What this has to do with Pending Changes is that the proposal that seems to have the most support at WT:PC2012#Promoting and demoting reviewers puts the burden on individual admins to revoke the new userright if someone is misusing it, which I assume means warning them first. It seems to me that, since different admins draw the line on both BITE and BLP in different places, very active reviewers are going to see their talk pages fill up with warnings from admins that they're in danger of losing the userright because they leaned too far in one direction or the other. The problem is that this type of warning, even if it's accurate, is likely to discourage and push away otherwise productive WPians; we're not just talking about a warning that an edit was wrong, we're talking about a threat to take away a userright that's being handed out like water, which is almost certainly going to be viewed as a slap. Even if we get 100% consensus and we all perform our warning and revoking duties perfectly, my sense is that we'll still get burned ... a lot of raw feelings have been generated over the last five years and more of squabbling over Pending Changes. So: what are some other ways reviewership could be granted and revoked, at least on an experimental basis? - Dank (push to talk) 14:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is any different than rollback, which operates in the same easy-come-easy-go manner. Yes, sometimes users feel that having their rollback removed is a slap in the face, and yes sometimes rollbackers have their rights removed because they have a very different idea than admins of what constitutes "vandalism". But that's...sort of how it works. Rollback-granting operates on the basis of "when you can show you understand how to differentiate a rollback-worthy situation from a non-rollback one, you can have it ". Is there any indication that this would be different for Reviewer? Would Reviewer, once removed, not be re-granted once the user can show they've fixed whatever the reason was that they had it removed? I guess I don't really understand whatever the important difference you're trying to highlight here is, Dank. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I believe so, I mention some things that seem pretty different from rollback to me above, and in my last comment at WT:PC2012#Promoting and demoting reviewers. - Dank (push to talk) 17:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Can the reviewer right be removed from administrators, many of whom are frankly not competent to judge on matters of content, and all of whom were promoted before this right (in its present form) was introduced? Malleus Fatuorum 18:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

At one point that was possible, but somewhere alomg the line it was decided to bundle it with the admin toolset. I don't know how that decision was made but I would imagine if a consensus to overturn it became apparent it would be technically possible. It would also be possible to "topic ban" admins who had misused the permission evn if there was no technical limitation. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:44, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That'll be a "No" then. Malleus Fatuorum 19:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It does seem rather odd that it is a bundled sysop right... clearly that needs to be stopped before things go "live". Also what we should do is set up a community process for receiving/removing the right that is lightweight and involves content editors able to judge when someone needs the right added or removed. Then an admin can flip the button at their behest. --Errant 19:15, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Whether the reviewer right ought to be bundled in the sysop bit is an interesting question, but one that should be raised separately. If we can return to the issue at hand, I agree with fluffernutter that there are some similarities with Rollback regarding how the removal may be viewed, but I think there is a fairly clear community understanding of what is eligible for rollback and what is not. Given an particular use, I think most admins would reach the same conclusion about whether the use was appropriate. In contrast, dank points out the interesting situation that one might identify a nontrivial class of edits where some admins would admonish a user for reverting, and potentially leading to removal of the right, while other admins might insist that the revert was necessary—not simply allowable, but required by policy. It would be most unfortunate if holders of the right were admonished by some if they did the revert, or faulted by others, if they failed to do the revert. (Of course, it is hard to detect that someone failed to revert an edit, so there might be a preference for letting BLP violations go. That would not be good.)--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

... which lies at the root of the problem. Administrators have no special competence to judge on content issues, therefore they have no special competence to judge who should or shouldn't have this new right, one they all bizarrely have by default. Malleus Fatuorum 01:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

t=one? Or was that a typo? Nyttend (talk) 01:47, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Malleus here, or at least with what he is asserting about the role of administrators. We're expected to make judgements about editors based on behavior, to settle disputes, and enforce policies. But we've never been given any special status when it comes to judging the quality of content. Even when performing deletions, we delete based on whether or not an article follows the guidelines, not whether or not an article is "good". As you can see at flagged revisions, anyone with that right is intended to judge the "accuracy" of contributions to certain articles, which seems to be a purely editorial call and not something usually under the administrator umbrella. -- Atama頭 04:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be best to have a formal community procedure for removing the reviewer tag? Let admins grant it out to anyone with a modicum of clue, but require a community !vote to take it away? Someguy1221 (talk) 05:00, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

We do expect admins to make judgments about content. Every BLP-based block is fundamentally a judgment about content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

No it isn't, it's a judgement about libel. But the point I was making is that administrators have no special competence to judge content; that's something regular editors do far more often than most administrators do. Malleus Fatuorum 21:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

There is far more to BLP than libel, but even if you consider only libel, a decision about whether the content is potentially libelous is still a decision about the content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

In your opinion, but why don't you address my real point, which is that administrators have no special competence to judge content? Or do you believe that they do, and hence are the proper persons to be deciding who should and who should not be allowed this new user right? Malleus Fatuorum 11:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

We ask admins to judge content every day. They judge if edits are vandalism and thus warrant blocks etc. Not sure how that isn't completely judging content. -DJSasso (talk) 11:56, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Any fool can spot obvious vandalism, that's not the issue. And why are you, like WhatamIdoing above you, deliberately ignoring my very specific use of the phrase "special competence"? Or do you really believe that administrators do indeed have some special competency in deciding on content issues? Malleus Fatuorum 11:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I do believe admin need to have competence in judging vandalism. Which is essentially what the reviewer right is. Though some like to think its also about the quality of the content. I am not sure it really goes that far. -DJSasso (talk) 12:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Even spotting obvious vandalism is a decision about the content.

I also agree with Djsasso that the point of pending changes isn't to decide whether an edit is ideal, but just to determine whether it's so bad that it shouldn't ever be shown to readers. IMO it's about obvious cases like vandalism and serious BLP violations, not about whether a given change is slightly slanted or possessed of a mediocre source or demonstrating new and interesting categories of grammar errors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:23, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Malleus is absolutely right to say that admins have no "special competency" when it comes to content. Admins are trusted by the community to enforce policies and judge consensus; they are no more privileged when it comes to actual editing. This is the main reason for WP:INVOLVED - an admin involved in a content dispute should not use their tools because they have no extra right to make content-based decisions, nor to enforce one editorial view over another. However, I do not think that this is an issue with the reviewer right. Misplaced Pages:Pending changes says: "The process of reviewing is intended as a quick check to ensure edits don't contain vandalism, violations of the policy on living people, or other obviously inappropriate content." According to this (and a similar sentence at Misplaced Pages:Reviewing), reviewers are there to check that edits are not vandalism, BLP violations, or otherwise inappropriate. This is nothing to do with content, so the fact that admins do not have "special competency" is irrelevant. Reviewing is about vandalism, BLP violations and similar disruption - that is certainly under the remit of adminship. Thus, I see no reason why the reviewing right - essentially another vandal patrolling tool - should not be bundled with the admin bit. ItsZippy 22:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that's rather a naive view, but whatever. The reviewer "right" is of no interest to me anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 22:45, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

New watchlist feature

Hey all. So, we had an AFT5 deployment earlier, and one of the new features allows you to see feedback from articles you're watchlisting, via a blue link at the top of the watchlist. Hope people find this helpful; if you have any problems, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:48, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Excellent, I was really hoping there would be something like this when I first heard of AFT5. --PresN 02:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Glad to be of help :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 06:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Not supported on the iPhone: "Sorry, your browser is not supported by this prototype. To see this page, please use a different browser." Viriditas (talk) 09:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Great idea, just a shame 95% of the feedback is trolling from IPs - my two favourite comments are the simple "gay" and "no." GiantSnowman 09:26, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• This is absolutely great, and I found some useful stuff. Is there any way to show only unresolved feedback? I marked a dozen comments as resolved, but can not get rid of them.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree; we have all sorts of filters, but not that one. Lectonar (talk) 10:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• I would like to see a feedback queue option on the right side, something like "Add to queue". For one example of what I'm talking about, on my watchlist I see feedback from IPs requesting images. It would be helpful to add that feedback to a queue that feeds into a specific "photo requested" queue monitored by a WikiProject, patroller, or bot, that then marks the article talk page for a photo and links to the feedback, or takes it one step further and sends out a request to users who help add requested images. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Wow! This feature is awesome! I am getting real feedback from real people with real needs. I can actually trace shifts in tone to particular efforts, which is deeply motivating. Also this gives me quite a bit of perspective into the relative importance of the different articles in my watch list. Thanks! I love it! →Yaniv256 _contribs 10:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• I notice about half of the feedbacks on my watchlist are fairly useless, but I suppose that isn't such a bad ratio. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:55, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Justin Bieber is on my watchlist -- wanna bet on my percentage of "useless comments"? Try 98% or so. Collect (talk) 14:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
    • I was just coming to comment about the exact same article. This feature is mostly useless unless we can choose to remove pages from it. I don't want to remove a vandalism magnet from my watchlist, but my feedback page is dominated by a couple of articles full of feedback that really has nothing to do with anything. --Onorem♠Dil 14:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• Like —  an IP gave a feedback to one of my articles I am both watching and working on not sure if its trolling since the IP stated "less lies" :/ I did reply though =) Best, Jona 14:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

About 85% of the feedback I've seen has been utterly useless, much it obvious nonsense such as "asdasdasd", or "piv gair ". So who is allowed to edit/delete this feedback? Malleus Fatuorum 16:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I believe all rollbackers have that access. Ryan Vesey 16:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

It's described at Misplaced Pages:Article Feedback/Help/Monitors. Apparently, feedback "monitors" are admins, rollbackers and "reviewers". Feedback posts cannot be modified, but they can be hidden (i.e. essentially revdeleted). Somebody has been drafting a guideline about how that feature should be used, but that's evidently nowhere near established yet. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I see. Then like pending changes I will be ignoring this new feature. Malleus Fatuorum 17:04, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

It seems unlikely (and actually possibly detrimental to the project) that admins, rollbackers and reviewers are going to spend a lot of time editing this stuff, when they (and many, many rank-and-file editors) pretty much have their hands full protecting the encycylopedia from vandalism and improving its articles. Was it really necessary to create an entirely new class of text that needs to be looked after, especially considering even the most enthusiastic folks here rank 85-90% of it as worthless? Unlike the enthusiasts, I saw nothing that was particularly helpful, and nothing at all that couldn't have been dealt with via a comment on the article's talk page. Like WikiLove, I see this as an utter waste of time and energy, and, perhaps, an indication that the Foundation's focus is profoundly misplaced. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Why exactly would we need to look after it? This is like a public dumpster. Sometimes people use it to donate useful stuff instead of going to the trouble of handing it over to charity, but what is the point of trying to clean it up? It's a dumpster! Nobody reads it unless he or she enjoys looking for the useful stuff that people donate next to the dumpster. →Yaniv256 _contribs 04:24, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I will say that while despite 90% of the feedback I see from my watched articles, the rest is potentially helpful and this is a great way for readers to get involved without having to become "editors" (even if it was as simple as editing a talk page). --MASEM (t) 16:36, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Same here. Lots of obvious junk, but the occasional useful suggestion in between. Only a few concrete, actionable suggestions, but also some general indications of what direction an article should be developed in, which, even if vague, might give an editor a useful idea in some cases. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

My concern is that after reading it, the suggestion will sometime be forgotten. Can we somehow transclude or substitute featured comments onto the talk page? Ryan Vesey 16:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Sure, depending on the article 50%-99% of this is crap. But that it good! Just read it the other way, 1%-50% are valuable comments. Notice 0% is not in the range. Ryan's idea is a great idea which deserves to be properly discussed. We need to be able to pull what we see as useful into the talk page. →Yaniv256 _contribs 20:06, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - I'm seeing a lot of this kind of thing: "some more info HARDCORE DAVID GET OFF MY KEY BOARD JEESE" - not very helpful to be honest. Truthkeeper (talk) 16:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• Article feedback is such a joy to behold. And that's from just the last 30 minutes. Looking at feedback from my watchlist, I find the omnipresent "tits", alongside such wonders as "leave your job", "to learn more", "meep meep meep meep MEEP", and the almost unbeatable "I don't know, it's your problems to think about it!!!". To go to this from poring over what Nataliia L' vovna Zhukovskaia had to say about Tsagan Ebugen is quite a shock to the system. Uncle G (talk) 19:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I've been gently suggesting for a while that the current approach is deeply flawed, lacks a proper specification/aim and is not ready for production. But that seems to be falling on deaf ears; I notice that today it has been noted this is expected to be rolled out to 100% of articles in the not very distant future. Given that the tool still requires significant development I don't see how that can even be on the roadmap yet! --Errant 19:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• I do note that if you sort by relevance, the results are generally a lot more helpful. I do wonder if here's a case where an argressive spam filter could be used to hide (not eliminate) results, such as those under a set character limit, excess repeated characters/words, cussing, etc, hiding those inputs by default but still potentially available.
  Also, but this becomes more wish-list-y, it would be nice if there was a way to put perennial feedback and replies to the feedback users. For example, Grand Theft Auto IV is on my watchlist, and there's already like 3 calls for us to list all the cars in the game. I'd love to be able to have a box that, before readers leave feedback, can read and understand that we're not a strategy wiki and won't do this, and invite their participation further on the talk page if they have questions.
  I think does work but needs tuning. I don't want to see it go away just because 90% of it may be crap, because that 10% is actually pretty valuable. --MASEM (t) 20:05, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I am getting something very similar, but am thinking it might not be such a bad idea to comply. On the democracy article there are many feedbacks that say that it would be nice to have a list of all the democratic countries in the world. Now, it's just one click away on the Democracy index article, but if so many people can't find it, why not put in a box with all the flags and names of the democratic countries. I started putting it together in my sandbox and I must say that it is kind of neat, in a non-academic sort of way. I think putting color into the article makes a lot of difference and that sort of thing does that job quite well. →Yaniv256 _contribs 05:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Could I get a off-hand straw-poll if you guys think we should respond to requests like that? →Yaniv256 _contribs 06:02, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• yawn. should be opt-in; to opt-out:

#articlefeedbackv5-watchlist-feedback-link
{
 display: none;
}

Br'er Rabbit (talk) 04:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• • I don't need a coded way to ignore it. It's not a large or distracting link. I don't need to opt-out from it. It just really doesn't seem like a very useful tool...kind of like the feedback tool it started from. Point people to the talk page. Mirror the responses to the talk page with some ability to check them off. Something has to be better than watching the page, the talk page, and the almost entirely useless feedback from this. I looked at this because this discussion was ongoing and actually, I think, improved an article. This is not something I'll look at regularly because the feedback is so overwhelming and stupid. --Onorem♠Dil 05:58, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

a singing piece of poop - Justin Beiber

somone cool - Justin Beiber

Who are Juatin Biebers Siblings? - Justin Beiber

about his family - Justin Beiber

JUSTIN IS UGLY - Justin Beiber

lisa marie's first mtv video - Lisa Marie Presley

justin bieber ishot - Justin Beiber

talk more about his "haters" and his relationship with Selena Gomez - Justin Beiber

Great content. Contained everything I was looking for. GO WIKI!!!!!!! - Justin Beiber

why toyota move manufacturing to europe' - Toyota

Those are the last 10 'feedback' items for me with a watchlist of about 2500 articles. This is not very useful. --Onorem♠Dil 06:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

How exciting. New feedback from a minute ago.

i love you - Justin Beiber

What exactly is the point of this feature instead of pointing users to the talk page? All it does is add another place for discussion. --Onorem♠Dil 06:19, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Isn't the Toyota question kind of usefull? Does the article have something on that? →Yaniv256 _contribs 06:26, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say that none of the feedback is useful. But this isn't a 'feature' when only 1 of 11 comments is useful...and that's assuming that the Toyota answer isn't in the article. I don't know if it is. I'm watching for vandalism on that article, not content...and I'm not going to read through the entire thing now looking for the answer. --Onorem♠Dil 06:39, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Now I get why you would carry a crap magnet like Justin Beiber. That must be one hell of a vandal honey pot! That would also suggest that this feature should be absolutely worthless to you. I am surprised you were not more negative about it. It is not designed to support your line of work, and should not be expected to be able to perform well under such conditions. If you are interested in assessing it I would suggest you copy paste your raw watch list to a text file, pick 10 articles which you have content interest in, and then take another look. One more thing: no BLP. I don't think this feature should be on BLP articles. That's just not right. →Yaniv256 _contribs 07:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Note that the Justin Bieber feedback is not exactly representative :). There's actually a bug - people should be being prohibited from leaving feedback on protected pages, and I'm going to find out today what on earth has gone wrong with that. On the more general point of abuse; it is fully integrated with the abuse filter :). If you see some misbehaviour that regex can kill, I would suggest throwing it at your nearest edit filter manager. On Br'er rabbit's CSS tweak to hide it - there's already a way of turning off the tool via the preferences menu: see the bottom of the second page. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Did you want representative examples that were not from Beiberites? Try these, from the past 3 hours:
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/YouTube/264441 — Someone is looking for porn.
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/SVDK/264970 — So is this person. Amazingly, this feedback was automatically marked as helpful.
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Toms Shoes/264983  · Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Raio Piiroja/265000  · Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/The Mahabharata (1989 film)/264722  · Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/William Smith (swimmer)/264695 — Total incoherence is amazingly useful as feedback.
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/LGBT/264826 — This is the English Misplaced Pages.
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Hydroxychloroquine/264742 — A person with a medical condition known as absence of spacebar is looking for medical advice.
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/George Washington/264729 — Our article lacks the important thing to know about this subject.
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/List of H2O: Just Add Water episodes/264663 — Indeed.
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Judge Advocate General (India)/264510 — Thank you for another place that we now have to police for advertisements …
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Jon Stewart/264829 — … and for BLP violations …
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Inductive effect/264438 — … and for this.
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Substance abuse/264792 — Just say no.
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Ouija/264566 — And if you cannot say no, just say "poo".
    • Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet/264905 — Hey, let's Godwinize this!
  • Uncle G (talk) 17:35, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Most of which have in common "they are very high profile". "Judge Advocate General (India)" included, as well as the problematic one, several useful and high-quality posts. Indeed, that was the only problematic one I saw. I agree that this is an issue, though, and I've pushed through development of a "disable AFT5 on this article" feature, to be added to the protection functions. I'll hopefully have more details on it (when/where/how/who) in a few hours. We were planning to do this ages ago but it seems to have been lost in the churn. Bleh. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:47, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
      • Are Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Great Conspiracy/266602, Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Korba, Chhattisgarh/263082, Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Ray J/266605, and Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Climate of Turkey/263117 all very high profile, too? And the only problem you saw was the advertisement? You didn't see the automatic marking of "more ass 'n titties" as "helpful" by your tool, or the BLP violation at Jon Stewart, as problems? Or even the fact that your tool can happily report "1 word (2950 characters)" and you still haven't put in a check to catch something so basic? Uncle G (talk) 11:07, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

How is this a new watchlist feature? My own watchlist seems unchanged. Searching within it for the string "feedback" brings nothing. However I learn from the above that any article can have feedback. I guess that the article on Obama will have feedback. Sure enough, Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Barack_Obama does. At least 80% of this can be summarized as Needs moar truthiness! and nothing that I notice in the remainder is of actual use. I tentatively infer that this new "feature" is something I can safely ignore but yet a Good Thing: adding worthless comments (see the plentiful examples above) harmlessly absorbs the time and energy of me-toos and nincompoops. However, isn't there a danger that somebody will write an intelligent comment that I'll miss, but that I'd have read and benefitted from if only it had instead been in the relevant talk page? -- Hoary (talk) 01:14, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

• Just chipping in that my feedback is also pretty much entirely useless. There's one "I liked it"; some gibberish as detailed above. The good faith comments constitute a significant proportion but they consist of requests for WP:HOWTO information (on currencies and programming) and statements that actually they don't want a detailed article, just a list of "famous" examples. Depressingly crap tool, tbh. bridies (talk) 09:38, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
• There's no need to paraphrase. bar examination literally needs "more cheese" and list of Newspeak words needs "MORE BATMAN". Of course more porn is a staple request, because sometimes one is just simply "unable to masturbate to this article", but sometimes an article needs "more cowbell". The mind boggles as to what the writer of Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Rocky (film series)/267194 is looking for more of.

  It's Special:ArticleFeedbackv5Watchlist that's the new watchlist feature.

  You can of course view the fact that you won't be watching the article feedback for comments to be a form of negative feedback that will discourage use of the feedback tool for serious purposes. People who post useful comments in amongst the deluge of one-word incoherences, requests for porn, requests for telephone numbers (example), people just saying "poo", and personal revelations (such as this one) will find them ignored, and will learn to use the talk page. Think of it as evolution in action. ☺

  The downside to your absence is that the mean number of feedback items for the rest of us to deal with goes up. Close to 230,000 feedback items divided by approximately 7,000 administrator and reviewer accounts means 30 or so items for each and every administrator reading this noticeboard to review for advertisements, BLP violations, and abuse, already. And since we administrators are (wrongly) advertised as the "go to" people for just about everything, we can both predict where all the "please delete this feedback item right now" requests will end up.

  Uncle G (talk) 11:07, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

• Surely we should consider having User:ClueBot NG or some similar bot go through this first and hopefully filter out most of the crap? Is there an API interface for this? T. Canens (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
• I have only just got around to looking at this. I fear it it is just opening up a section of wikipedia for all the kind of crap that ones gets on facebook and the like. I thought we wanted to avoid that. I think this is a bad idea.

Range block needed

Can someone who knows anything about range blocks take a look at Pico- and figure out the best way to go about this? I assume a range block of some sort is needed in addition to the page protection. Ryan Vesey 15:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I've protected the article; range blocks are not ideal, given the number of innocent parties that could potentially be caught up in it. I'll let someone with more skills and agils explain in greater detail. GiantSnowman 15:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Range blocks are one of the most extreme solutions to problems and should always be used as a last resort. JOJ 15:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

That's fine, but it would be good if someone can follow some of these then, User:220.255.2.118 has made multiple different vandalistic edits., I've made an AIV request for that specific IP. Ryan Vesey 15:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

This is a very heavily used range with a high level of collateral. Also as an FYI, single blocks on this ISP are almost completely ineffective/useless as the IPs reassign very frequently. Elockid 15:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone given feedback to the abuse address at the ISP? My experience with other ST subsidiaries is that they are very precise and image-conscious, as a matter of corporate culture. I imagine that they might check their logs to identify repeat offenders, if given the addresses/dates/times. —— 15:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Has any communication to any abuse address ever resulted in a successful action? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Article move request

Please move Thomas Frederic Cheeseman to Thomas Frederick Cheeseman - 'Frederic' should end in a 'k' Thank you Paul venter (talk) 13:44, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking quickly at the sources, it appears they are split roughly 50/50 between "Frederic" and "Frederick". I'd suggest starting a requested move discussion. Jenks24 (talk) 13:55, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this move in any way controversial? Starting a requested move discussion is a way of stalling any move for at least 7 days, and the current backlog appears to add a month to that. As the requested move page says, "In some situations, the appropriateness of a move may be under dispute, and discussion is necessary in order to reach a consensus. It is not always necessary to formally request a move in these circumstances: you can start an informal discussion at the article's talk page instead." However, some seem to think AT policy forces "Any potentially controversial" moves through RM: see the discussion at WT:AT#RM not required. This increases the admin workload for no evident benefit. . . dave souza, talk 21:41, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Is there need for haste? Is something happening in the next month that would require the article to be renamed immediately? The articles not going anywhere. We have nothing but time.--JOJ 22:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Judging by the backlog of about a month, we lack the time to keep moves up to date. Why overload the system with uncontested and uncontroversial moves? . . dave souza, talk 23:30, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Well then be bold and see what comes of it.If its challenged then you are at no worse loss than you are now.--JOJ 02:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

It it potentially controversial because (a) the person who created the article obviously thought this was a better title and (b) the sources are split. Making moves, instead of move discussions, when we know there's a reasonable chance someone might object is often how we get into shitty move warring situations. I'm not really sure why you're dragging up the WT:AT discussion when that has to do with using RfCs as a substitute for RM. As regards the backlog, we're struggling a bit at the moment, mainly (IMO) due to RM bot being down – any help from experienced admins such as yourself would be much appreciated. Jenks24 (talk) 02:36, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:RM says it is not always necessary to formally request a move in these circumstances: you can start an informal discussion at the article's talk page instead, so I've done that. There are useful discussions at WT:AT on how to improve the wording: it's made me aware that this is a bit of a bureacratic fankle with procedures I'm unfamiliar with, but that at least moves this particular request forward. . dave souza, talk 09:37, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

RFC to be closed

RFC expired here, can an admin close Talk:Plasma_cosmology#Requests_for_comment_2? Cheers, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:15, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit filter

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Judging by the number of requests in the last ten minutes, smth is wrong with the filter. Could somebody pls urgently have a look? Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll have to second that. I got a false positive just a minute ago and didn't bother reporting it. →Yaniv256 _contribs 13:08, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Personal Attack (2º)

User:Trasamundo not stop his personal attacks over me. Now accuses me 2 times that I "sabotage" wikipedia. I'm getting personal attacks before in Talk:Spanish_Empire, which are repeated in last Trasamundo intervention. In the same talk he called me "Sockpuppet" in 4 times In this latter occasion he accuses me that I "sabotage" wikipedia.

Cited (Trasamundo):

• "So any accusation by Santos30 to others about original research it is simply a comical childish tantrum as if a child is denied a candy.."
• "this is the strategy of this individual, so that the page will be blocked, and nobody can edit, which is a full-scale sabotage in wikipedia.."
• "I know that when the protection period expires Santos30 will recommence his sabotage in wikipedia.."

This is his last edition where he accused me twice of sabotage. Thank you.--Santos30 (talk) 20:47, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Being called a sock without filing an WP:SPI is uncivil, but not a personal attack. Being accused of sabotage is uncivil, but not a personal attack as per the definition. This is WP:WQA territory ... dangerouspanda 20:54, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Please, How I can stop "uncivil" behavior of Trasamundo in the talk?. Thank you--Santos30 (talk) 21:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC). OK I will ask in WP:WQA. Thanks.--Santos30 (talk) 21:24, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

• Being called a sock without any evidence is, in my view, a personal attack ("Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki."). That said, I did not look to see whether Trasamundo provided any evidence. In addition, I note that an SPI report has been filed by another editor concerning Santos30.--Bbb23 (talk) 07:44, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

User:Jaontiveros: who supporting User:Trasamundo in the dispute ,"agree with Trasamundo", and tries to help him to stop the Talk,and impose their views through a banned from wikipedia english, repeating the uncivil behavior seek a penalty on me trying to find any improper purpose and here. I make a report in Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance.

Jaontiveros talk about User Retired in Misplaced Pages.es, not expulsed before and not involved in the discussion, and Jaontiveros not say that Trasamundo gives and recive in Misplaced Pages.es strong support from User:Durero, who said these ugly words about Misplaced Pages.en after revert me and delete the map, kick me and block the talk. Then, User:Escarlati, supporter of user Durero in Misplaced Pages.es, delete POV template.

--Santos30 (talk) 13:21, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Backlog at WP:AIV

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could an admin please help with the current backlog at WP:AIV? Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 22:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Article: Paul Staines

I have taken some emergency action at Paul Staines. In view of the complexity of this issuie, including NLT, COI, 3RR, and maybe even SOCK, would one or more uninvolved admins please chime in. See Talk:Paul Staines, the the article history, User talk:Paul.staines, and User talk:Kudpung#Paul Staines. Thanks. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:11, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

This at BLPN in 2009 is also relevant - clearly this has been going on for a very long time, despite the subject approaching it in the correct manner before, and semi-protection was used previously but then expired. However, it's unlikely to be related to Ali G's battlecry of "We gotta save Staines!" --Demiurge1000 (talk) 04:38, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Also now at WP:BLPN again with a new entry, but not really adding much. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:08, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Need an admin to undo a moved article mess

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:OZODOR performed some kind of complicated move between Roosevelt High, Roosevelt High (CTA station), and Roosevelt/Wabash (CTA station) which finished with the article at Roosevelt/Wabash (CTA station) (where I think it was to begin with), but the edit history at Roosevelt High (CTA station), which is now simply a redirect.

Can someone please reunite the article with its edit history, with Roosevelt/Wabash (CTA station) as the name of the article?

Thanks, Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:42, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

• Uncle G seems to have straightened it out -- thanks! Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:46, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
• I don't know whether Anthony Appleyard still patrols Misplaced Pages:Cut and paste move repair holding pen, but that's the place for this, not here. This was a relatively simple one. OZODOR did two renames, and then a copy-and-paste to undo them, instead of reverting the moves in the reverse order. Uncle G (talk) 08:49, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

That's a page I've never heard of -- I'll keep in in mind for the future, thanks. (After 7 years, I'm still discovering new things about this place!) Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Mass U1 CSD

Is there a way to request mass deletion (CSD U1) of a set of pages? Specifically my old user name subpages ? Nobody Ent 12:21, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and I can if you would like. Reaper Eternal (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Borce Ilievski

Can an administrator please delete the article? The person who closed the AfD never bothered doing so. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:29, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

She did. It just didn't look like she did on the AfD. I purged the cache on the AfD page and everything seems to be fine now. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 19:38, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list

Resolved by motion at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment that: The Eastern European mailing list case is supplemented as follows:

The interaction ban placed upon User:Nug and User:Russavia in the Eastern European mailing list case is lifted, effective immediately. The users are reminded of the discretionary sanctions authorized for their area of mutual interest.

For the Arbitration Committee, Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 20:04, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Discuss this

Amendment requested for 'The Troubles' Arbitration remedies; input welcome

Hi all,

Interested editors are invited to review and comment on a request for amendment to the discretionary sanctions remedy (R5) of the The Troubles Arbitration case.

Regards,
Daniel (talk) 04:16, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

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