This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Asfd666 (talk | contribs) at 06:51, 20 August 2012 (→Cart before the horse?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 06:51, 20 August 2012 by Asfd666 (talk | contribs) (→Cart before the horse?)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff) | Gibraltar C‑class Mid‑importance | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
 | Spain C‑class Mid‑importance | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
 | Morocco C‑class Mid‑importance | ||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||
 | Mythology C‑class Mid‑importance | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
I would really really really really like to see a map with the area in question shown as i have no idea of exactly what/where it is that is being described. Perhaps a photograph also might help others in my position? I live in Australia and have no idea about the coast of Gibralater or Sicily or anywhere else in that part of the world.
Disambiguation
The "Pillars of Hercules" are also referred to as the "columns of Hercules" in Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (vol 1, ch 2, p.56) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.101.234 (talk) 21:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
scared strait
Corrected the confusion between the Strait of Sicily (which separates Sicily from Tunisia)and the Strait of Messina (which separates Sicily from mainland Italy).
Strait of Sicily
"Before Eratosthenes about 250 BC, ancient Greek writers located the Pillars of Hercules on the Strait of Sicily. This changed with Alexander the Great’s eastward expansion and the Pillars were moved by Eratosthenes to Gibraltar. This evidence has been cited in some Atlantis theories, notably in Sergio Frau's."
That is nonsense. The "Pillars of Hercules" have always been whats now called "Strait of Gibraltar". Herodot wrote that the Mediterranean Sea ends at the Pillars of Hercules and a "sea called Atlantic" beginns there (Hdt. I 202). --Bender235 20:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Plato is the first one mentioning Atlantis, and at his time they knew nothing about Gibraltar, or Spain, or even Sardinia. He describes the Pillars of Hercules as a shallow passage, hard to navigate. Does Gibraltar match the description, considering it's 400m deep? According to recent studies the description matches the strait of Sicily, which corresponds also to the limit of the greek influence in the mediterranean at that time. I believe that the positioning of this geographical limit can change many things, we've looked at the wrong place for a long time due to later revisions of the original story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.50.37.196 (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
I have a problem with "recent studies" claiming that the Strait of Sicily fits better Plato's description of the Pillars of Hercules. Which are these studies and where have they been published? (scientific references only, please). The Strait of Sicily is also very deep: it ranges between 365m up to 700-900 m in its central region. Its minimum width is about 150 km. This means that the crew on a ship sailing through the Strait of Sicily would be unable to see the two coastlines at the same time ( in other words, they would not notice any "strait"). In the Timaeus, Plato clearly states that Libya (Northen Africa)up to Egypt, and Europe up to Tyrrhenia (present Tuscany) were all located before the Pillars of Hercules. Had the Pillars been located in the Strait of Sicily, Thyrrhenia would have resulted beyond the Pillars, along with Sardinia, Corsica and the city of Carthage. To my knowledge, no classical Greek source tells us about the need to cross the Pillars of Hercules to sail between the Eastern Mediterranean and any of these four places.--Tyrsenos (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
firstofall, there is no written records that points at the pillars near Gibraltar. That’s a modern invention. Think about it; no one knew exactly where the pillars were at the time of Plato, how come we the modern people know about it? I have spent years in reading the ancient writings and they all argue about the location, nevertheless they all point at different location within a triangle perimeter – Tunis –Sardinia – Sicily. Think about it, the Island of Hades is somewhere near Sicily, aren’t the pillars supposed to be there? Someone pointed out that there are no descriptions: Meteorology - By Aristotle For we find the sea getting deeper and deeper. Pontus is deeper than Maeotis, the Aegean than Pontus, the Sicilian sea than the Aegean; the Sardinian and Tyrrhenic being the deepest of all. (Outside the pillars of Heracles the sea is shallow owing to the mud, but calm, for it lies in a hollow.) “
The History of Herodotus - Book || The Celts live beyond the pillars of Hercules, and border on the Cynesians —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.215.17.159 (talk) 14:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Atlantis?
This article is in the Category:Atlantis. However, there is no reference to Atlantis in the article. Can someone please explain this? Badbilltucker 21:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- Herodotus placed Atlantis "beyond the Pillars of Hercules". Corvus cornix 21:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
- It was Plato. Herodotus does not mention Atlantis. No one besides Plato does. ––Bender235 22:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, you're right, Plato. Corvus cornix 01:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- It was Plato. Herodotus does not mention Atlantis. No one besides Plato does. ––Bender235 22:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
A mighty river which created mountains in present-day europe dried after the newly made black sea which split from the Caspian was created, here explains the great serpent of the bible. A massive river across europe apart from the crack that was the atlantic. Spain pushed downwards via a hook created africa. Pieces of africa once had its place in nova scotia. The island itself was an L shape which broke. The tip of the 'L' was the white island, and that naturally broke off as well. This all happened within the fifth world or fifth age. Your age. Thats right everything about the island of the atlantic happened after the fourth creation. This all happened after 850,000 yrs or 1.7 million yr (RAMAS TIME). The spacecraft on the moon is from rama's civilization not the human atlantean one in the atlantic. Land changes alot.--Asfd666 (talk) 06:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Cart before the horse?
I find it hard to believe that two pillars on a temple in Gades inspired someone to find their geographic equivalent. Surely it would be the other way around. Ifnkovhg (talk) 23:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, I went back and looked at Strabo. Naming a place for famous architecture is not unheard of, but the temple's lending its name to the place is a minority view. To represent it as the opinio communis in the opening paragraph is perverse. The Melqart stuff is best left under the "Phoenician" header. Ifnkovhg (talk) 05:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- A direct quote of Strabo would do the trick.--Wetman (talk) 05:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
If that map was not 870k yrs old but prior to 48m-1.7 million years old i would literally have to throw away my theory about metamorphissis and the ice age. I would have to flush the theory of the 5 ages down the drain. There would be tiny poleshifts which wouldnt make sense or change the earths poles at large intervals of time. Besides blavatsky already knew that shit.
Hades, not Gades ? =
I believe that the Pillars of Hercules were known as the Gates of Hades, not the Gates of Gades.
24.24.245.25 (talk) 05:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Could the name "Pillars of Hercules" be a hold-over from very ancient times?
When Plato is talking about Atlantis, he claims that it existed 9000 years before his own time. This would have meant he was talking about a place that existed in about 11,000 BC. This would have been during the last Ice Age. During the last Ice Age, the ocean levels were about 100 meters lower. If you lower the water that much at the Strait of Gibraltar, you would suddenly have two huge towering land forms on either side of the strait, and thus, very obvious "pillars". So, the fact that no one can figure out exactly what the "pillars" are in the "Pillars of Hercules" might just be because they are underwater now.
Has anyone ever heard of anyone else speculating about this idea? Just curious.
Nortonew (talk) 20:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- Plato made no such claims for his trope, "Atlantis".--Wetman (talk) 20:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- My error about the time. Still it's a literary image, not a geographical one.--Wetman (talk) 20:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- Have you ever read the section of Plato's Timaeus that deals with Atlantis? He goes into quite a lot of detail regarding the history and geography of Atlantis if he is just making it up to use as a literary image. We don't have any evidence at all that supports the idea that he meant it solely as a literary image. Its quite possible that he really believed that there once really was such a place as Atlantis. You can read the text of Plato's dialogue on the subject here: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Atlantes.html --Nortonew (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- That would shift the figure of Heracles back into the Stone Age?--Wetman (talk) 19:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it would shift the concept of there being "pillars" at the Straits of Gibraltar back to the Stone Age. However, the Greeks had a tendency to use the name of one of their own gods in place of any similar foreign god. So, the "pillars" may have originally been associated with some other ancient deity from some long-forgotten proto-culture from the Ice Age. At least, that would be my guess. Another interesting thing in Plato's description is that he claims it was impossible to sail beyond the Strait of Gibraltar because there was a huge mass of mud there after Atlantis sank. Of course, there isn't any huge mud mass there now. In fact, its seems unlikely that there was a huge mass of mud there during Plato's time. However, if you lowered the seas by about 100 meters, you might end up with a mud mass there. So, one again, Plato may have been relying on VERY outdated information on the geography of the area. -- Nortonew (talk) 16:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- That would shift the figure of Heracles back into the Stone Age?--Wetman (talk) 19:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Have you ever read the section of Plato's Timaeus that deals with Atlantis? He goes into quite a lot of detail regarding the history and geography of Atlantis if he is just making it up to use as a literary image. We don't have any evidence at all that supports the idea that he meant it solely as a literary image. Its quite possible that he really believed that there once really was such a place as Atlantis. You can read the text of Plato's dialogue on the subject here: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Atlantes.html --Nortonew (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- My error about the time. Still it's a literary image, not a geographical one.--Wetman (talk) 20:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- If y'all have any more new speculations, would you mind taking them to v:? They allow original research over there. 141.152.29.215 (talk) 16:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- That looks like a cool site. Thanks for suggesting it -- Nortonew (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- If y'all have any more new speculations, would you mind taking them to v:? They allow original research over there. 141.152.29.215 (talk) 16:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)