Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nightstallion (talk | contribs) at 15:23, 1 May 2006 (moved Talk:Elżbieta Rakuszanka to Talk:Elisabeth of Austria (d. 1505): WP:RM). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 15:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I know I'm probably not making myself very popular with Polish-speaking users, however I think this article needs to be in the English form since this is the English Misplaced Pages. Shouldn't this article be titled under "Elisabeth of Austria (1437–1505)", similar to the other Elisabeth of Austrias? "Elzbieta Rakuszanka" is Polish which translates as "Elisabeth of Austria" as stated in the article itself. Gryffindor 20:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Support Names should be in English whenever possible. Gryffindor 13:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
• Support per Gryffindor. Septentrionalis 19:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC
• Support per Gryffindor. Charles 22:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Is there a reason why all the Elisabeths of Austria on WP (including the target of this proposed move) use the "s" and not the "z" spelling? Appleseed (Talk) 13:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
• Support, although Elizabeth seems more appropriate than Elisabeth. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
• Abstain.Object - why force the need for disambigs? The current name is distintive and notable.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah, but not English or German. This name, Piotrus, is the kinda name you should be objecting to if you were wanting to convince neutrals you don't wanna Polonize all names of anyone vaguely related to Poland. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
  • WP standard for consorts is to name then under their birth names. Also, territorial designations should be in English. Rakuszanka is not English. Charles 15:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
    • OK, you convinved me of the folly of the current name. However I'd prefer 'of Habsburg' then of 'Austria'.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Good move, and Hapsburg isn't a bad suggestion either. Dr. Dan 01:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

• Weak support On one hand it would be a safe move and quite a logical one. However, given the number of other Elisabeths of Austria, we'd have to disambiguate it, possibly to Elisabeth of Austria (Elżbieta Rakuszanka), which is not the best option. //Halibutt 15:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
  • No. The proposed new title contains the woman's birth and death dates, so wouldn't need a dab. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Elisabeth of Austria already is a disambiguation page. Charles 15:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• Comment- The unfortunate consequence of this relentless and nonsensical attempt to "edit" the English Misplaced Pages with non English names and geographical locations, will ultimately end with a backlash against these editors. What's more unfortunate, is when the smoke clears and all of this is revised, lots of relevant and good editing that should be in Polish (even with diacritics), will be removed. Elżbieta Rakuszanka doesn't cut it. We can't say she lived in Polska and that she and her mąż, Kazimierz, liked rosół z kury for obiad, and expect this to stay in the English Misplaced Pages. Wake up out there. Dr. Dan 00:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Support - Use the form of name most commonly used in English-language works as required by Wikistyle manual. Noel S McFerran 07:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Support per Gryffindor. --Panairjdde 13:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Her birth year is not a confirmed piece of infirmation. Various sources tend to give 1435 or 1436. Quite usual for that era - some dates are just approximations. Therefore, absolutely unacceptable to use any birth year in the title. The RM proposal is built upon faulty information, and should not be approved. Moreover, I faced some sources that use "Elisabeth of Habsburg", thus the "of Austria" may just be an invention here. It is quite clear that it cannot be accepted just as a translation from "Rakuszanka" - as Polish words directly translated may lead to erroneous titles in English. Habsburg seems to have additional support from the fact that German WP has titled her as "Elisabeth von Habsburg" (Österreich nowhere even near there). The whole "vote" above should be discarded, as WP needs knowledgeable/ expertised people first to find what actually is her name in trustworthy English texts. Shilkanni 20:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

German WP has little or no relevance on matters concerning English WP. German Misplaced Pages has little to no consistency with the naming of royals. Charles 20:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I notice that you have no rebuttal for the other arguments. Unusual. Thanks. Shilkanni 21:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Austria is not an invention as all members of the House of Habsburg were "of Austria" (Anne of Austria, Queen of France, is almost never called Anne of Habsburg or even Anne of Spain, for instance). Such is so important that they are sometimes called the House of Austria. German WP cannot be cited as support for a name in English *if* German WP is inconsistent with royal names and doesn't follow English WP naming conventions. Charles 23:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC) (forgot to sign)

Thank you, anonymous, for your comment. However, it seems that no one has evidence that she actually is called "of Austria" in relevant English literature. Your examples are from much later eras. Besides, contrarily, those ladies of Austria actually were called "of Habsburg" also in later generations. For example, Alfonso XIII is documented as of "de Borbon y de Habsburgo-Lorena" (see relevant article), which says something about his mother's designation. Besides, a postulation that ALL are called "of Austria" on basis of editors' own conclusions, is close to so-called Original Research. Shilkanni 21:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to sign my comment. "Of Austria" for Habsburgs is not original research. Once the Habsburgs acquired Austria, all became dukes and then archdukes of Austria. Elisabeth was a duchess of Austria, even though the title of archduke had been assumed. Alfonso XIII is "de Borbon y de Habsburgo-Lorena" because those are house names. He wouldn't be "of Austria" unless he was "de España y de Austria". It is true though: All members of the House of Habsburg at the time were "of Austria". Even the article states she was "of Austria" as well as other territories. Charles 23:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.