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Cheating with non-existing references
In the section about "Identity" there is a series of references supposedly saying that Souliotes were speaking the Albanian language. I checked some of them and I found a massive falsehood. For example, there was this ref:
- Nicholas Charles Pappas, Greeks in Russian Military Service in the Late Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries, Institute for Balkan Studies, 1991.
With some googling I found the book, not online readable but searcheable with snippets. Searching for "Souliotes" I found only this:
"... to counter the Russian-sponsored movement of Souliotes and Chamerian beys against Ali Pasha."
Does anybody conclude from this passage anything about the language of Souliotes?
Obviously some users are cheating with false references. It seems that they attempt to use the following trick: First, they draw the arbitrary equation Cham = ethnic Albanian. Second, they search the bibliography for texts that associate (even remotely) Chameria or Chams with Souliotes, and third, they claim that "this source says that Souliotes were Albanians". I don't think this case is worth discussing. I only remind that Chameria was a geographical term, and everybody living is Chameria is a "Cham" by definition. In this view Souliotes may be Chams. In the article Chameria/Modern history is made clear that "Cham" is not an ethnonym.
Therefore, all the references to the language or ethnic identity of Souliotes must be checked and cleared. Users who think they have credible references on this subject, are requested to provide the exact quotation and, if possible, snippet. Crude pro-albanian references, like Sandra Vickers, are good only for a laugh.--Euzen (talk) 08:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- The scholar against whom you're making BLP violation comments is Miranda Vickers(at least try to get the names right).--— ZjarriRrethues — 16:25, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
Who cares? Since she is a "scholar", I suppose that in her books provides the original sources proving that Souliotes were speaking Albanian as first language (e.g. letters), which you are requested to copy here.
- @ZjarriRrethues: Is every comment about the neutrality of some living scholar (i.e. like this comment your wrote recently) in fact BLP violation?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- @ZjarriRrethues: Is every comment about the neutrality of some living scholar (i.e. like this comment your wrote recently) in fact BLP violation?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
Let's take those references one by one.
Does Pappas claim that Souliotes were speaking Albanian? Quote please.--Euzen (talk) 11:26, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
From the same list of references:
- Arnakis George, The role of religion ... , p. 141. : " ... a common language was not sufficient to cement an alliance between Muslim Albanians and Albanian-speaking Greeks, such as the Souliotes, ..."
Does this ref. supports the text claiming that Souliotes were of Albanian descent? It refers only to the language. Searching the book for "Souliotes" does not provide any relevant snippet on pp. 118-119 as the ref. claims. Please quote the author if the ref. is relevant.--Euzen (talk) 10:10, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- "Unjust accusation", eh?
- Hammond: "The Liaps held the area from Valona to Delvine and inland to Tepelene; the tsams from Delvine to Souli and inland to Ioannina and Pogoniani".
Does this say anything about Souliotes' identity?
Unjust accusations and defamations
In the above paragraph, user:Euzen is accusing other editors of falsehood. He brings up the example of the work of Nicholas Charles Pappas, Greeks in Russian Military Service in the Late Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries, Institute for Balkan Studies, 1991 as an example of source falsification. This is strange because when we take a look at the article Pappas is used as reference in two cases 3a and 3b take a look. In the first one 3a Pappas is used as a reference for the sentence "The name Souli is of uncertain origin." look and in the other case of reference 3b it is used as a reference of anothere sentence "It has been suggested that it derives from the ancient Greek region of Selaida. Another view claims that it derives from the name of a Turk that was killed there. Yet another opinion based on etymology claims that the word derives from the Albanian term sul, which can be idiomatically interpreted as 'watchpost', 'lookout' or 'mountain summit'" look. The editor who used Pappas as a reference in both cases, also linked the google book snippet here. If we take a look at the snippets we can see tah in the first case 1 the sentence says "Christophoros Perraivos, who knew the Souliotcs at firsthand, said that the name came from a Turk who was killed there. Yet another opinion, based on etymology, claims that Souli comes from the Albanian term sul, which literally means ..." and in the second 2 "Yet another opinion, based on etymology, claims that Souli comes from the Albanian term sul, which literally means "tree trunk" or "pole" and idiomatically means "watch post" or "look out"".
we can see that there is no source falsification by anyone. This is a case of defamation and an administrator should intervene Aigest (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? The ref in question is in the list under No 25, referring to Souliotes speaking Tosk Albanian. I might be mistaken, so, provide the relevant quotation and page.
- In the stable version the book of Pappas is listed as reference 3 and 14 and speaks nothing of "Souliotes speaking Tosk Albanian". In the stable version the reference 25 is the book of Hart "Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece. Laurie Kain Hart. American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1 (Feb., 1999), pp. 196-220. (article consists of 25 pages). Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American Anthropological Association "To begin with, the Suliotes (celebrated by Byron and in Greek national history for their role in the liberation of Greece) were a "branch of the Tchamides, one of the three great divisions of the Tosks" (Finlay 1939:42)-in other words they initially spoke Albanian.""
- In the current version again the reference 25 is not Pappas but a German scholar "Nußberger Angelika, Wolfgang Stoppel (2001) (in German), Minderheitenschutz im östlichen Europa (Albanien), Universität Köln". You have blindly amputated valid references and made serious defamations of previous editors' work. 217.24.242.5 (talk) 09:06, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Struth! I paste here the reference in question (now No 29), attached to line "... the dialect they initially spoke .... Tosk Albanian".
29: Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece. Laurie Kain Hart. American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1 (Feb., 1999), pp. 196-220. (article consists of 25 pages). Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American Anthropological Association "To begin with, the Suliotes (celebrated by Byron and in Greek national history for their role in the liberation of Greece) were a "branch of the Tchamides, one of the three great divisions of the Tosks" (Finlay 1939:42)-in other words they initially spoke Albanian."
- Miranda Vickers, The Albanians: A Modern History, I.B.Tauris, 1999, ISBN 1-86064-541-0, ISBN 978-1-86064-541-9 "The Suliots, then numbering around 12,000, were Christian Albanians inhabiting a small independent community somewhat akin to that of the Catholic Mirdite trive to the north
- Nicholas Charles Pappas, Greeks in Russian Military Service in the Late Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries, Institute for Balkan Studies, 1991
- Katherine Elizabeth Fleming, The Muslim Bonaparte: Diplomacy and Orientalism in Ali Pasha's Greece, Princeton University Press, 1999, ISBN 0-691-00194-4, ISBN 978-0-691-00194-4 "The history of the orthodox albanian peoples of the mountain stronghold of Souli provides an example of such an overlap"
- Balázs Trencsényi, Michal Kopecek. Discourses of Collective Identity in Central and Southeast Europe (1770-1945): The Formation of National Movements, Published by Central European University Press, 2006, ISBN 963-7326-60-X, 9789637326608 p. 173 "The Souliotes were Albanian by origin and Orthodox by faith"
- Eric Hobsbawm, Nations and Nationalism Since 1780: Programme, Myth, Reality Edition: 2, Published by Cambridge University Press, 1992 ISBN 0-521-43961-2, ISBN 978-0-521-43961-9 p. 65
- NGL Hammond, Epirus: the Geography, the Ancient Remains, the History and Topography of Epirus and Adjacent Areas, Published by Clarendon P., 1967, p. 31 "The Liaps held the area from Valona to Delvine and inland to Tepelene; the tsams from Delvine to Souli and inland to Ioannina and Pogoniani"
- Helen Angelomatis-Tsougarakis, The Eve of the Greek Revival: British Travellers' Perceptions of Early Nineteenth-century Greece, Published by Taylor & Francis, 1990, ISBN 0-415-03482-5, ISBN 978-0-415-03482-1
- William Miller, The Ottoman Empire and Its Successors, 1801-1927, Published by Routledge, 1966, ISBN 0-7146-1974-4, ISBN 978-0-7146-1974-3
- Arnakis, George C. "The Role of Religion in the Development of Balkan Nationalism", pp. 118-119, 141 (Jelavich, Barbara and Jelavich, Charles. The Balkans in Transition: Essays on the Development of Balkan Life and Politics since the Eighteenth Century. Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1963).
- Batalden, Stephen K. Catherine II's Greek prelate: Eugenios Voulgaris in Russia, 1771-1806. East European Monographs, 1982, ISBN 0-88033-006-6, p. 142.
What is all this list? Do they claim that Souliotes were speaking Albanian some time in the past? Can we have the quotations on that issue? For example, this Balázs Trencsényi says (I hope, but good faith has been lost here) "The Souliotes were Albanian by origin and Orthodox by faith". How this comes to mean "they were speaking the Tosk Albanian dialect"? Does any of those authors refer to evidences that they were speaking Albnian as mother-tongue? If so, the user who posted (or pasted) these refs, can possibly post the sources of those sources.
Because we don't play with the national sentiments: Soon this section will be divided to two sub-sections, with primary and secondary sources respectively. Let us see if Mrs Vickers (and her institute in Britain) has access to voice recordings of Souliotes speaking Albanian.--Euzen (talk) 16:15, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
- Don't avoid what I was talking about. You said above "In the section about "Identity" there is a series of references supposedly saying that Souliotes were speaking the Albanian language. I checked some of them and I found a massive falsehood. For example, there was this ref: Nicholas Charles Pappas, Greeks in Russian Military Service in the Late Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries, Institute for Balkan Studies, 1991. With some googling I found the book, not online readable but searcheable with snippets. Searching for "Souliotes" I found only this: "... to counter the Russian-sponsored movement of Souliotes and Chamerian beys against Ali Pasha." Does anybody conclude from this passage anything about the language of Souliotes? So you were cleraly referring to Nicholas Charles Pappas book and not to Laurie Kain Hart book. You have made wrong accusations and defamated other editors and you behaviour now enforces my opinion. Aigest (talk) 08:04, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
- Euzen's misrepresentation of sources as well as cherry-picking of outdated 19th century accounts of travellers is disruptive. Flemming's massive work on Ali Pasha was reduced to according to a work that supports the Albanian origin .... Nationalist interpretations of sources are unacceptable, not to mention the massive misrepresentation and deletion of source Euzen doesn't like. That being said the full quote from Pappas that triggered the issue is It originated some time before 1600, when Christian Albanians settled a mountainous area north of Preveza and east of Parga. The precise origin of these settlers is unknown. One tradition maintains that they were the remnants of an Albanian contingent that fought at the battle of Kossovo in 1389 and escaped the Christian defeat there, while another holds that they were part of the last personal guard of Skenderbeg (page 35). Enough said.--— ZjarriRrethues — 11:37, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Bypassing that about "nationalistic interpretations", since we know each other from other Albaniads, thanks for the quotation of Pappas. If this really refers to Souliotes (which is not obvious in this passage) it refers to a tradition and this has to be clear in the article, as all the other historians agree that the earliest traces of S. are dated to 17th c. No need to commend on the assumption that "Skanderbeg's personal guard" were more "Albanians" than Skanderbeg himshelf. :)
There is no problem with citing all existing references, but since there are many who claim that S. were Greeks or mixture of Greeks, Albanians and Vlachs, it is provocative to present a ref. (e.g. Flemming) as THE Gospel on the Souliote's history. Maybe we'd better group the ref's to those who claim Albanian, Greek or other origin accordingly.
Since you appear to have the more scholar approach of the other pro-Albanian users, you probably noticed the pseudo-references produced on the trickery "Source XXX says they are Albanians, so (I conclude) they were speaking Albanian, and (you bet) that since they were speaking Albanian they were Albanians". This is why I will separate the primary from the secondary sources on the language alone.
Finally, by erasing the list of references inside other reference, I don't mean they have to be excluded. Simply, it seems that most of them are irrelevant to the statement on the language and, besides, refs in other refs is a questionable practice. Each one of them has to be linked to the proper text. For examble, does Hobsbaum claim that Souliotes were speaking Albanian, and if yes, can we have the reference he bases this claim upon? --Euzen (talk) 09:19, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
- Flemming's work is a biography of Ali Pasha and as such it contains some details on the Suliotic clans. That being said stick to reliable sources (and by that I mean no outdated traveller accounts, no polemic works that were written basically to target and defame other scholars and their views etc.)--— ZjarriRrethues — 18:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
You are free to add as many reliable sources as you like. Each one must refer to the relevant phrase of the article (this is a WP rule). Primary sources referring to Souliotes speaking Albanian will be a great contribution to the article.
Information and references that some try to hide
I paste here the text on the language of Souliotes, which obviously contradicts the Albanian national mythology and is daily deleted by a certain username. I call them again to add any original source supporting that Souliotes were speaking of feeling Albanians. Secondary "reliable" sources claiming so, are supposed to have relevant footnotes and bibliography. Don't they?
Language
On the language spoken by Souliotes there are very few primary sources, and some secondary sources.
- Primary sources
- J. Rizo Neroulo, a Greek Phanariote, high official in Wallacia and Moldavia etc, reports in early 19th c. that their maternal language was Greek, but they knew also Albanian which was familiar to all Epirotes
- Lord Byron who visited Epirus and Albania reports that the Souliotes “speak little Illyric” (Albanian).
- Evidence on the language of Souliotes is drawn from the Greek-Albanian dictionary by Markos Botsaris and his elders, composed in 1809. T. Yochalas who studied the dictionary concluded that either the mother tongue of the authors was the Greek or the Greek language had a very strong influence on the Albanian, if the latter was possibly spoken in Souli.
- Apart from the lexicon of M. Botsaris, the only long text written by a Souliote before 1820’s is the Fotos Tzavellas’s diary of his captivity by Ali Pasha. Fotos with his father Lambros Tzavellas, heading 70 Souliotes, were deceived by Ali Pasha who arrested them and held the first as a hostage from February 1792 till April 1793. This diary is written by F. Tzavellas himshelf in simple Greek with several spelling and punctuation mistakes. By studying the subdialect of this diary, Emm. Protopsaltes concluded that Souliotes were Greek speakers originating from the area of Argyrkokastro or Chimara.
- Secondary sources
Some secondary sources claim that Souliotes were of Albanian origin (Template:Lang-sq), while the dialect they initially spoke is classified as one of Cham Albanian dialects However, it is recognized that speaking Albanian in that region is not a predictor with respect to other matters of identity (Hart, p. 199).
Religion
Religiously they belonged to the Church of Constantinople, part of the larger Greek Orthodox Church. The patron Saint was St. Donatus, locally called "Aidonat".
Sources
- ^ Rizos-Nerulos Iakōbos, Histoire de l'Insurrection Grecque, Paris, 1834, p. 156
- Byron to Hobhouse, letter from 8, St James’s Street, London, November 2nd 1811:“… The Suliotes are villainous Romans & speak little Illyric.”
- Yochalas Titos (editor, 1980) The Greek-Albanian Dictionary of Markos Botsaris. Academy of Greece, Athens 1980, p. 53. (in Greek)
- Protopsaltes G. Emmanouel, The diary of captivity of Fotos Tzavellas 91792-1793), in “Mneme Souliou”, edited by the “Athens Society of the Friends of Souli”, 1973, vol. 2, pp. 213-225, in Greek. The text of the diary is in pp. 226-235.
Emmanouel Protopsaltes was professor of Modern Greek History at the University of Athens in 1970’s. - Protopsaltes G. Emmanouel, Souli, Souliotes, Bibliotheke Epirotikes Etaireias Athenon (B.H.E.A.), No 53, p. 7, Athens, 1984, cited in G. Karabelias “Synostismenes sto Zalongo”, p. 28, Athens, 2011. In Greek.
- Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece. Laurie Kain Hart. American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1 (Feb., 1999), pp. 196-220. (article consists of 25 pages). Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American Anthropological Association "Finlay's late 19th-century description of the Suliotes gives some impression of the complexity of social categories in this area. To begin with, the Suliotes (celebrated by Byron and in Greek national history for their role in the liberation of Greece) were a "branch of the Tchamides, one of the three great divisions of the Tosks" (Finlay 1939:42)-in other words they initially spoke Albanian."
- Leake William Martin, Travels in northern Greece, 1835, Vol. 1, p. 234.
- Nobody is trying to hide anything Euzen and please read WP:BRD. That being said don't insert your OR based on outdated sources, which you seem to pick per WP:CHERRY (as the vast majority of them say the exact opposite of what you're trying to POV-push). You're quoting Leake (a primary source, which you shouldn't quote at all) regarding religion but you avoid to quote him regarding language/origin etc. and that just shows your POV approach.--— ZjarriRrethues — 10:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't notice Leake's ref to language. Please add it or indicate here the page.
- I didn't notice Leake's ref to language. Please add it or indicate here the page.
The use of 19th century stuff as a reference is unacceptable here. On the other hand the additon of Yochalas about lignuistics is constructive and sheds light to a couple of issues.Alexikoua (talk) 12:58, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
- Why unacceptable? The material is clearly defined as "primary sources" and is perfectly OK with WP rules. It's up to the reader to accept on not accept them. On the other hand, Protopsaltes is not a 19th c. author and Byron is a classic. But if we are talking about 19th c. sources, let us reconsider Finley.
- Why unacceptable? The material is clearly defined as "primary sources" and is perfectly OK with WP rules. It's up to the reader to accept on not accept them. On the other hand, Protopsaltes is not a 19th c. author and Byron is a classic. But if we are talking about 19th c. sources, let us reconsider Finley.
- Let us be more explicit and not waste time: Most modern readers know that "something" is happening here and suspect the motivations behind modern anglo-saxon authors who claim to know what happened in the Balkans of the 17th c but do not provide references. None takes them seriously unless they support their work on primary sources (archives etc). I'm still waiting for this kind of sources on the assumed Albanian origin or language of Souliotes.
- You have misinterpreted every source and deleted each one that you didn't like. That being said conspiracy theories about the motivation of Ango-Saxon authors (?!) will be reported. Enough said.--— ZjarriRrethues — 15:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- You have misinterpreted every source and deleted each one that you didn't like. That being said conspiracy theories about the motivation of Ango-Saxon authors (?!) will be reported. Enough said.--— ZjarriRrethues — 15:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
The sources are there, have being taged for completion and you have been invited to add as many sources as you can. The article is not going back to the pro-Albanian POV.
Read talkpage
I would invite all editors of this article to kindly read talk page before making any edit. Aigest (talk) 08:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Will you please be so kind to clarify what exactly do you have in mind?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Discussion about the references on ethnicity and identity (continued)
- At least now any discussion can be conducted properly.--— ZjarriRrethues — 17:21, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Blind reverting isn't a sound strategy, especially if reliable material is multiple times removed in this case (T. Yochalas). Aigest also needs to explain what's the meaning of adding this ] and especially this edtsummary ]: using poorly cited and outdated material as a reference to prove that Soulotes belonged to a specific ethnic group, just the same strategy as Euzen.Alexikoua (talk) 07:55, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- I think it is very important to understand that being Albanian can have two different meanings, ethnic Albanian or demonym.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- In the meantime I'll report the latest the block evasion. Btw in a unit known as the Albanian Regiment (Régiment Albanais), a term attributed to mercenaries from the Balkans, independently of ethnicity. is ungrammatical and wasn't even part of Euzen's intentions. He was quoting sources about the use of the term Arnauts if I'm not mistaken. --— ZjarriRrethues — 10:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Guess you need to report it in wiki and not in irc, suppose there isn't something to hide this time.
- In the meantime I'll report the latest the block evasion. Btw in a unit known as the Albanian Regiment (Régiment Albanais), a term attributed to mercenaries from the Balkans, independently of ethnicity. is ungrammatical and wasn't even part of Euzen's intentions. He was quoting sources about the use of the term Arnauts if I'm not mistaken. --— ZjarriRrethues — 10:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- I think it is very important to understand that being Albanian can have two different meanings, ethnic Albanian or demonym.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Also if a sentence is grammatically incorrect, this doesn't mean that someone should remove only a part of it, in order to promote a ethnically pure version that 'regiment Albanaise' consisted of ethnic Albanians only.Alexikoua (talk) 11:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Albanian Regiment
The Albanian Regiment in the French army was created in 1807 and consisted mainly of Albanians:
- The Albanians were enrolled as the Regiment Albanais and the Greeks as the Bataillon de Chasseurs a Pied Grecs. In the 1809 the Greek Battalion was put into the Albanian Regiment, probably in the hope of introducing a stabilizing element. For the Albanians were described as a French regiment minus its uniforms, training and discipline. They acknowledged no authority but that of their clan leaders and brawled constantly with the more or less Christian Greek inhabitants of the island. Swords Around A Throne Author John R. Elting Edition illustrated Publisher Da Capo Press, 1997 ISBN 0306807572, 9780306807572 page 371-372
One of the most complete works on that regiment is that of Auguste Boppe "Le Régiment albanais (1807-1814)" [http://books.google.com/books?id=kGitQwAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Auguste+Boppe%22&source=bl&ots=nUsItjCAI3&sig=g-gRtnyPm4MYnn4bWScz5m05ro8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g qAWUPmAAtH74QS1xYDYCA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg here's] the link Aigest (talk) 14:59, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Nice piece of info, but I fail to see the word 'Souliotes' in there, or more precisily the view you try to push that Souliotes were part of an ethnically pure military unit in French army (something that's already contradicted by Pappas).Alexikoua (talk) 15:57, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- Since you're not disputing that Suliots were part of the regiment then it's irrelevant whether or not they're specifically mentioned in sources that generally refer to it. That being said it's WP:COATRACK to mention details regarding ethnicity stats of the regiment on such a marginally related article to the subject. Btw Boppe is the source of Pappas regarding the regiment, so if an article is written it should be used. Btw what does Pappas mention that other sources don't(precise quote)?--— ZjarriRrethues — 18:15, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- Pappas explains that terms like Albanais, Macedoni etc. in terms of military units of that time, did not have their later ethnic connotations, on the other hand this edit summary ] supports a diferrent view (that the Albanian reg. has to do exclusively with Albanians, however without a reference that claims that).Alexikoua (talk) 20:45, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'll need a precise quote, however, it wouldn't contradict The Albanians were enrolled as the Regiment Albanais and the Greeks as the Bataillon de Chasseurs a Pied Grecs as no source connects the names of the regiments with their ethnic composition. The sources mention that "X group was enrolled in/as Y, but not that Y owes its name to its recruits being part of X group.--— ZjarriRrethues — 07:53, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- Pappas explains that terms like Albanais, Macedoni etc. in terms of military units of that time, did not have their later ethnic connotations, on the other hand this edit summary ] supports a diferrent view (that the Albanian reg. has to do exclusively with Albanians, however without a reference that claims that).Alexikoua (talk) 20:45, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
(unindent)From Armies of the Napoleonic Wars: an illustrated history(2009):: On 12 October 1797 Napoleon approved the recruitment of about 3,000 Albanians, most of whom were refugees from the harsh rule of the local Ottoman governor of the Albanian coast, Ali-pasha of Janina. The combined forced was organized as the Regiment Albanais (Albanian Regiment) on 12 December 1807 ... Despite additional recruitment among local Greeks, Italians and Dalmatian communities, it never reached its official establishment of 3,254. A battalion of Chasseurs a pied Grecs (Greek Foot Chasseurs), also known as Pandours de Albanie was raised by the French under an order of 10 March 1808 from Albanian and Greek refugees .. Its 951 men were combined into a singled Albanian Regiment.--— ZjarriRrethues — 08:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- Seems we all agree that this Albanian regiment consisted of ethnically heterogenous elements.Alexikoua (talk) 10:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think that is the right description. The Albanian regiment when it was created in 1807 had some 3000 Albanians (no greeks, no macedonians, no croats or whatever else nationality). Later in 1809 to this regiment was attached the unit of 951 Albanian and Greeks. Make the math yourself. Aigest (talk) 07:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
- The claim that the Albanian regiment was purely Albanian from start (1807), is clearly wp:pov, escpecially if we consider that Souliotes and Cheimarriotes were part of this unit. In general, neither the Greci nor the Albanaisi named military units were ethnically homogeneous:
- I don't think that is the right description. The Albanian regiment when it was created in 1807 had some 3000 Albanians (no greeks, no macedonians, no croats or whatever else nationality). Later in 1809 to this regiment was attached the unit of 951 Albanian and Greeks. Make the math yourself. Aigest (talk) 07:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
- Seems we all agree that this Albanian regiment consisted of ethnically heterogenous elements.Alexikoua (talk) 10:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Nation and ideology: Ivo Banac. East European Monographs, 1981, p. 42 ]: In the eithy odd years during which Naples employed light infantry from the Balkans, the troops of the regiment and its successors were known popularly under the three names in addition to the aforementioned camociotti: the seemingly national names of Greci, Macedoni and Albanesi. These, names did not, however, have their later ethnic conotations but were instead stylized terms that described the soldiers' general origins or mode of fighting...
(p. 41-42)] The Napoleonic wars brought about a proliferation of Greek units serving European powers which included veterans of the Neapolitan armed forces. During their occupation of the Ionian islands, the Russians organized units of Greek mainlanders, either under the sovereignty of the Septinsular Republic (Pichetti Albanesi, Corpo Macedone), or under direct Russian control (Legion legkikh strelkov, Osobyi grecheskii korpus). During the French occupation of the Ionian islands, these units were transformed into Le Regiment Albanaise and Les Chasseurs a pied Greces. (i.e. both these units included Greeks).Alexikoua (talk) 14:19, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think it was impossible to gather 100% pure 3,000 ethnic homogenous people at that time. In this case the term Albanian probably means demonym.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
- Possibly relevant: We are still waiting the results of the last year's Albanian census concerning the ethnicities in today's Albania. Why they delay? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.169.16 (talk) 14:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
- Seriosly guys I don't want to loose time with wp:or. The source says specifically "On 12 October 1797 Napoleon approved the recruitment of about 3,000 Albanians, most of whom were refugees from the harsh rule of the local Ottoman governor of the Albanian coast, Ali-pasha of Janina. The combined forced was organized as the Regiment Albanais (Albanian Regiment) on 12 December 1807 .." So originally they were ethnic Albanians and this is not an error of the author. Later on he adds "..Despite additional recruitment among local Greeks, Italians and Dalmatian communities, it never reached its official establishment of 3,254..." The source says clearly additional recruitments among other ethnic groups Greeks, Italians and whatever. So they were later on enrolled end theri number was not more than 200 since the regiment never reached its official force of 3254. So in the beginning they were like 3000 Albanians and later on some 200 Greeks Italians and Dalmatian were enrolled. User:Alex and user :Antid positions are personal ones. Was that possible or not possible is not ours to decide. What source says should be entered into article, everything else is WP:OR. Aigest (talk) 19:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Where does it say that they were ethnic Albanians? There is a detailed description by Pappas about who joined the Albanaisi unit, what's the meaning of Albanaise, Greci etc.Alexikoua (talk) 20:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Where does it say that they were ethnic Albanians? There is a detailed description by Pappas about who joined the Albanaisi unit, what's the meaning of Albanaise, Greci etc.Alexikoua (talk) 20:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Seriosly guys I don't want to loose time with wp:or. The source says specifically "On 12 October 1797 Napoleon approved the recruitment of about 3,000 Albanians, most of whom were refugees from the harsh rule of the local Ottoman governor of the Albanian coast, Ali-pasha of Janina. The combined forced was organized as the Regiment Albanais (Albanian Regiment) on 12 December 1807 .." So originally they were ethnic Albanians and this is not an error of the author. Later on he adds "..Despite additional recruitment among local Greeks, Italians and Dalmatian communities, it never reached its official establishment of 3,254..." The source says clearly additional recruitments among other ethnic groups Greeks, Italians and whatever. So they were later on enrolled end theri number was not more than 200 since the regiment never reached its official force of 3254. So in the beginning they were like 3000 Albanians and later on some 200 Greeks Italians and Dalmatian were enrolled. User:Alex and user :Antid positions are personal ones. Was that possible or not possible is not ours to decide. What source says should be entered into article, everything else is WP:OR. Aigest (talk) 19:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Possibly relevant: We are still waiting the results of the last year's Albanian census concerning the ethnicities in today's Albania. Why they delay? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.169.16 (talk) 14:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Some archival material of the "Albanian Regiment" are in Greek libraries and have been already published in Greece. Includes names of conscripts and pay-rolls. Aigest, if you insist why don't you create an article on that?
- I don't have access on such articles and it is not my job to interpret archives. According to wiki policies, our obligation is to report here what is written by scholars not to interpret archives. As per the above statement brought by user:ZR and repeated by me, the author is very clear on ethnicity. When he intended Albanian recruits (people) he used the term Albanian, when he intended Greek recruits (people) he used the term Greek. He is also aware of minor differences. He used Dalmatians and Italians differently although they might look similar (Dalmatian being a descended of a Latin language just like Italian and very similar to it). So yes the author is conscious about ethnicity and its various local flavors. It should be quoted verbatim. Aigest (talk) 18:32, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- The author is very clear on ethnicity? I dont thing so. We have tons of references that prove that these 18th century terminologies do not coincide with their later ethnic connotations (Greek Albanian etc).Alexikoua (talk) 20:20, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- Also, in this work: Le Régiment albanais (1807-1814): par Auguste Boppe Author Auguste Boppe Publisher Berger-Levrault, 1902, there is nowhere to claim that it consisted of ethnic Albanians. Actually it says that part of the regiment was eager to join the Greek national struggle.Alexikoua (talk) 20:29, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- Tons of references actually mean nothing. If you try to combine them here (try to implement them by yourself in this specific case like someone tried in this case with Banac) you go WP:SYNTH. You have to find a source which says specifically that the Albanian regiment since the beginning was composed of people with different ethnicity. Since this is not the case you have to put it like the source says. Arguments like "he probably means" etc are also WP:OR. So we will not put neither WP:SYNTH nor WP:OR here, just what author says verbatim. Note that this is a 2009 source and as I explained above the author is well aware of ethnicity issues. Aigest (talk) 20:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- It seems you are completely out of the topic here. This article is about Souliotes and the specific source you provide doesn't mention them at all.
- Tons of references actually mean nothing. If you try to combine them here (try to implement them by yourself in this specific case like someone tried in this case with Banac) you go WP:SYNTH. You have to find a source which says specifically that the Albanian regiment since the beginning was composed of people with different ethnicity. Since this is not the case you have to put it like the source says. Arguments like "he probably means" etc are also WP:OR. So we will not put neither WP:SYNTH nor WP:OR here, just what author says verbatim. Note that this is a 2009 source and as I explained above the author is well aware of ethnicity issues. Aigest (talk) 20:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
And Banac clearly states that: "the seemingly national names of Greci, Albanesi, and Macedoni. These names did not, however, haver their later ethnic connotations but were instead stylized terms that described the soldiers' general origins or mode of fighting.".
Actually you should find something which claims that Souliotes were ethnic Albanians, so, according to what you try to prove, the 'Albanian regiment' consisted from ethnic Albanians only. Alexikoua (talk) 21:33, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- The idea that these units were ethnically pure is really an extreme point. Apart from the above references, which clearly define their mixed composition, it's interesting that the commander of the 3rd battalion of the Albanian regiment, one named 'Christakis Kalogeros', was replaced and transeferred, in February 1808, to command the Greek Chasseurs... seven months before the merging. Alexikoua (talk) 21:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- I am not trying to prove anything of pureness or not pureness. The original sentence was about the fact that Suliotes were enrolled in the Albanian Regiment (Regiment Albanais) and this is a proven fact. Someone tried to add (or "clarify") the ethnicity of Regiment Albanais (which does not belong here as discussion anyway) and I was dragged into this. The sentence in the article should be "..Suliotes were enrolled in the Albanian Regiment (Regiment Albanais).." and that's it the sentence ends there, because this is the main and relevant fact. The supposed "clarification" (WP:SYNTH and WP:OR) should not even exist, not only here but not even in the Albanian Regiment article because specialized (on the subject) and very recent (as of 2009) sources speak very clearly:
- "The Albanians were enrolled as the Regiment Albanais and the Greeks as the Bataillon de Chasseurs a Pied Grecs. In the 1809 the Greek Battalion was put into the Albanian Regiment, probably in the hope of introducing a stabilizing element. For the Albanians were described as a French regiment minus its uniforms, training and discipline. They acknowledged no authority but that of their clan leaders and brawled constantly with the more or less Christian Greek inhabitants of the island." Swords Around A Throne Author John R. Elting Edition illustrated Publisher Da Capo Press, 1997 ISBN 0306807572, 9780306807572 page 371-372
- "On 12 October 1797 Napoleon approved the recruitment of about 3,000 Albanians, most of whom were refugees from the harsh rule of the local Ottoman governor of the Albanian coast, Ali-pasha of Janina. The combined forced was organized as the Regiment Albanais (Albanian Regiment) on 12 December 1807 ... Despite additional recruitment among local Greeks, Italians and Dalmatian communities, it never reached its official establishment of 3,254. A battalion of Chasseurs a pied Grecs (Greek Foot Chasseurs), also known as Pandours de Albanie was raised by the French under an order of 10 March 1808 from Albanian and Greek refugees .. Its 951 men were combined into a singled Albanian Regiment" Armies of the Napoleonic Wars: an illustrated history (2009):
- That should normally be the end of discussion. Aigest (talk) 21:57, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- No wonder there is no word about Souli and Souliotes in the above quotes. It doesn't help how many times you recycle the same bibliography, but I'm afraid you are in the wrong discussion.
Not to mention the extreme nationalistic view to indirectly prove that Souliotes were ethnic Albanians in modern terms.Alexikoua (talk) 22:45, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- The references above were for Regiment Albanais. The reference for Souliotes enrolled there is another one and already used. I've already expressed my opinion. Souliotes were enrolled in the Regiment Albanaise, that is a fact and should enter in the article. Regiment Albanaise should have his own article which should deal with these details. "The extreme nationalistic view to indirectly prove that Souliotes were ethnic Albanians sentence does not belong to the fact but to the one POV. Another POV would be that "The extreme nationalistic view, adds some WP:SYNTH and WP:OR to the direct reference, to indirectly prove that Souliotes were not ethnic Albanians. Funny isn't it? That's why a simple sentence "Souliotes were enrolled in the Regiment Albanaise" is much better. Who is interested in Regiment Albanaise might follow the link. This is as much neutral as it should be. Aigest (talk) 07:27, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
An interesting article to expand, if we are permitted to.--Euzen (talk) 08:30, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- You can edit any article you want to Euzen, but you must stick to WP:RS and don't get into WP:OR or attribute a dispute to source that doesn't mention it. Why don't you start by introducing some of your sources on this talkpage and explain how you mean to use them?--— ZjarriRrethues — 08:38, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Let's move to that article, then.--Euzen (talk) 22:05, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Out of context
There is a sentence in the article "In some sources Souliotes are characterized as "Albanian-speaking Greeks" which has been taken out of context. That sentence continues with a WP:OR and WP:SYNTH sentences out of 19th century traveler books. As such they should be removed. Aigest (talk) 21:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
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