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view · edit Frequently asked questions Main Criteria Instructions Nominations FAQ January backlog drive Mentorship Review circles Discussion Reassessment Report Shortcut WP:GAFAQ This is the list of Frequently asked questions about nominating and reviewing Good articles. If you cannot find the answer to your question here, you might want to ask for assistance at the GA nominations discussion page. Nomination process The backlog is huge! Is there something we can do to restrict nominations? There have been complaints about the perceived backlog in reviewing since the Good article status was created in 2006. Generally speaking, we don't want to restrict nominations along their path to GA. In the beginning, as many as 100 nominations were waiting for a reviewer to volunteer. By 2011, each day typically listed 330 nominated articles, of which 260 were waiting. By 2016, 580 were listed, 460 waiting; by 2021, 470 were listed, 300 were waiting. For comparison, today there are currently 702 nominations listed and 618 waiting for a reviewer. While it may seem overwhelming, a large backlog isn't a bad thing. It shows that many nominators want to use GA as a tool to improve the encyclopedia. It also allows reviewers to choose from a wide selection of articles that interest them. From a nominator's perspective, the main concern is the expected wait time before receiving a review, not the number of articles on the nominations page. Can't we force nominators to review articles? Quid pro quo reviewing (editors must review an article before nominating, perhaps after a grace period) was regularly proposed and always rejected as likely leading to lower quality reviews and fewer nominations from excellent content creators who may not wish to review another person's work. What order do nominations appear on the Good article nominations page? One advantage of reviewing articles to help the Misplaced Pages community is the GAN appearance order: the more articles you have reviewed relative to articles you have nominated, the higher up in the queue your nomination will appear on the GAN page. Note that above this, order preference is given to nominators who are new to GA. What if the nominator is a (perhaps dynamic) IP address? Any editor with significant contributions to the article may nominate an article for GA status (while only registered users may review), so significant-contributor IP nominators are permitted. Non-significant contributors should follow the advice above for editors who have not significantly contributed to the article. Dynamically changing IP nominators may want to clarify to the reviewer that, despite their signature, they remain the same person. Can I nominate an article I haven't significantly contributed to? No. Nominations from editors who have not substantially contributed will be removed unless the nomination shows that the article's regular editors were consulted on its talk page alongside a note on the GAN template showing their commitment to the process, e.g., |note=Adopted following extensive improvement by another editor. In the past, many drive-by nominators did not know the article or its sources and did not respond to questions by the reviewer. Review process I want to review an article. Do I have to review the oldest unreviewed nomination first? Thank you for deciding to review an article for GA. You may review any nominated article you are not involved in, regardless of the nomination's age or position in the queue. As a reviewer, I want to help the nominator improve the article, but it already meets the criteria. What am I supposed to do now? The purpose of a GA review is to determine whether the article meets the GA criteria. Article-improvement discussions are intended to prevent near-misses in nominated articles that almost meet the criteria. If the article already meets the criteria when you first review it, then explain exactly what you've checked in each of the main criteria (e.g., "I have verified there is no original research, copyright violations, plagiarism, unreliable sources, bias, edit wars, or untagged images.") and list it as a Good article. "Quick passes" are as legitimate as quick fails, although they are less common. Please do not make a list of nitpicky details or exceed the written requirements of the Good article criteria in an effort to make the review look rigorous. Instead, thank the nominator for presenting such a polished article, and encourage them to submit another. Who can respond to the review? The nominator is expected to respond to the reviewer's suggestions to improve the article, while everyone interested in the article is encouraged to participate in the review, not just the person who happened to nominate it. Nominators have no special privileges over other editors except that they can withdraw the nomination. Should nominators respond to reviewers' concerns? And what should reviewers do if they don't? The nominator has an interest in seeing the article become GA, so the nominator will likely want to respond to the reviewer to improve the article. In fact, all editors interested in the article are encouraged to respond to reviewers' concerns. However, nobody, including the nominator, is required to. If the reviewer identifies concerns directly related to the good article criteria and no one addresses the concerns, then no one should be surprised if the reviewer declines to list the article. If the article does not meet the Good article criteria after the reviewer has waited a reasonable amount of time for the nominator to make improvements, the reviewer is sure to fail the nomination. Future article editors may benefit from review comments on how to improve the article. The nominator disagrees with the reviewer. Can another reviewer take over? If your GAN experience is not going well or if you are disagreeing with the reviewer's decisions, then you may allow the review to fail, take the reviewer's suggestions into account, then renominate the article immediately (to get a different reviewer). If the reviewer has not yet failed the nomination, you may try asking them to ask for a second opinion. Other than these, another reviewer does not normally take over an active review. To prevent avoidable disputes, reviewers should either not make comments unrelated to the Good article criteria, or they should carefully label those suggestions as optional (e.g., "I know that citation formatting is not required by the Good article criteria, and I will not consider this when making my decision, but if you might send this to Misplaced Pages:Featured articles later, then that process requires consistent citation formatting"). Does an article have to be on hold for exactly seven days? No. Whether to place the nomination on hold at all, and the length of any such hold, is for the reviewer to decide. Depending on the quality of the article and the responsiveness of the nominator, a hold may not be necessary. If the reviewer decides that it is, they may choose longer or shorter periods of hold time. The reviewer may even modify the {{GA nominee}} template on the article talk page to include a "time" parameter, for example, "time=fourteen days", and the {{GANotice}} template used to convey messages to the GA nominator to include a "days" parameter, for example "days=fourteen". Keep in mind that protracted reviews show up as exceptions on the GA nominations report page. What should I do if a review page becomes inactive? This can happen for a number of reasons. Review pages should only be started by reviewers who are willing to take an active interest in the article and are committed to completing their review of the article in a timely manner. Sometimes another editor (such as the nominator) starts the review page by mistake. A reviewer can fix this by placing their signature after "Reviewer:" towards the top of the review page, but if no reviewer is forthcoming, it may be best to delete the review page: requests for such deletions may be posted at the discussion page. If a new reviewer is truly needed, follow the instructions page under "If a review seems abandoned". Do not use this process to void a review you disagree with. I failed the article, and the nominator just nominated it again without fixing the problems I identified! That's okay. There is no time limit between nominations, and this is the recommended process if the nominator disagrees with your review. Let someone else review it this time. The new reviewer is sure to read your comments while independently deciding on their assessment. If your concerns were legitimate, then the new reviewer will doubtless agree with you and also decline to list the article as GA. If the article is passed and you do not believe it meets the good article criteria, you can initiate a reassessment. How can GA be reliable when a single reviewer decides? The quality of a Good article is only as reliable as the most recent review and articles may deteriorate if unattended. The GA process deals with both of these issues by allowing repeat reviews by any registered user at any time. The process aims to encourage article improvement and build consensus on quality through multiple reviews—even though a single reviewer makes the decision whether to list the article according to the GA criteria. Any editor may contribute to any review discussion and reassessment is available when the "one reviewer decides" model breaks down. What if I have concerns about the quality of a review or need to resolve a dispute over the GA process? You can bring those concerns to the GA nominations discussion page to get help from other editors. Remember, however, to notify all users about whom concerns have been raised or who are involved in any dispute that you have.

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This talk page should be used for discussions relating to the nominating and reviewing of Good article nominations. Please direct any comments regarding the improvement of the GA program as a whole to WikiProject Good Articles. Thank you.

• WT:GAN

Query about quality of reviewing...

Could someone take a second look at the reviews of Talk:Nonviolent Communication/GA1, and Talk:Politics and Prose/GA1? One review consists of (in total) "ummm.. just another bookstore, nothing really special, kinda long, try to shorten it, and really boring,". In a similar vein are Talk:Annie Hall/GA1 and Talk:Milan/GA1. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing these up. All of them are flawed to a degree in the sense that the user is not applying the GA criteria (at least it's not evident in the text of the reviews). Nonviolent Communication has a few {{citation needed}} tags, which arguably is grounds for a quickfail, and Milan has some similar citation issues, but the reviewer doesn't seem to be basing pass/fail decisions on any guidelines. I'll leave a friendly note on the user's talk page. --Batard0 (talk) 08:05, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

These reviews are, at best, seriously misguided. I'd support deleting them, allowing a more experienced reviewer to take on the articles. J Milburn (talk) 08:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

This is probably the best course, under the circumstances. I would support it, while trying not to discourage the original reviewer. It may be a case of the reviewer honestly not knowing/applying the full guidelines. --Batard0 (talk) 11:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Sugar/GA1 is another article where this reviewer has made some difficult to understand comments and then seems to have left the review in the air. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:39, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

something like sourcing issue as one example is automatically expected to be quickfail according to the guidelines. if someone has a problem with the conclusion of an article, they can just renom it and pass or fail it. deleting comments is a bad idea. i feel my reviews are spectacular.

as for the "seems to have left the review in the air" -- that's okay, i felt that another reviewer should make a conclusion. you can also see Batard0's talk page for additional comments. i honstly believe this is a non-issue and that assumptions made here are incrediably mistaken, but don't worry about it, i don't hav much time to do much contributing or reviewing anyhow, and pretty much none for chit-chatting on disagreemnts.

another edit -- and looking quickly back on this talk page, it looks like http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations#User:Lucky102_.26.26_Talk:Milan.2FGA1 was passed when it shouldnt have, i had failed it most recently or at least i think i hav, dont remember, since this is the accurate conclusion, as the last editor said, much of the article wasnt even scoured, "am i missing something?" -- it's for the nom to read the guidelines and realize the basics, not for the reviewers to have to menion every single obvious and tedious point.

moreover just so you understand clearly that this is not onesided (since it seems i have to outline every single thing in this world for fear of every instance of misunderstanding)-- if i was the nom, i would take exactly the same positiion, it's for me to realize tihs isnt ga quality, instead of blaming teh review for not giving a 10page detail law review-like essay. and since i dont haev the time to be checking back on this --that means how you perceive the situation will automatically become popular, even if they're msitaken from the outsider's, and insider's, point of view that you have, nice isnt it?

Waveclaira (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 02:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but your reviews are not "spectacular", no matter how you feel. They have little to do with the criteria, and some of your suggestions are very odd. If you do not have time to offer a full review or follow up on reviews, so be it, but perhaps you should consider not actually starting them. Further, while it is the job of the nominator to ensure that the article meets the criteria, it is the job of the reviewer to explain why it does not- you can say until you're blue in the face that "it's for to realize tihs isnt ga quality", but if they have nominated the article, they obviously feel that it is. It's then up to the reviewer to explain the issues. If the problems are too numerous to list, then perhaps a general outline explaining the issues and how they may be fixed, rather than a line-by-line analysis, but that would only be for the weakest nominations. On that note, am going to delete these pages to allow a more capable reviewer to take over. J Milburn (talk) 09:43, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I've left the sugar article, as another reviewer has taken it on. That said, with comments like "Remove all redlinks, either by de-linking them or creating stub articles for them" it's perhaps still not getting the kind of attention it warrants... J Milburn (talk) 09:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Just a reminder to clean out the "onreview" status and the review page transclusions on the article talk pages when the review pages are deleted. Otherwise, a ghost review appears on the GAN page and these show up as malformed reviews on the daily report. I've just done so for these four. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:14, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposed add to FAQ

I propose the following addition, or something like it, to the GAN talk page (i.e. this page) FAQ. I've noticed a couple cases where people have raised concerns with others' reviews and not notified the person whose reviews they're criticizing. It's probably a simple matter of forgetfulness, but I thought perhaps we could have the following in the FAQ:

What if I have concerns about the quality of a review or need to resolve a dispute over the GA process?

You can bring those concerns here for help from other editors. Remember, however, to notify all users about whom concerns have been raised or who are involved in a dispute that you have begun a discussion.

I don't think this should be too controversial. Any thoughts? --Batard0 (talk) 06:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --Rschen7754 06:36, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Seems fine. Malleus Fatuorum 14:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Fine to me. — ΛΧΣ21™ 22:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

"Here" needs to be a specific page name. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Since there are no objections, I'll put it in with a link to "here". Edit or revert and discuss if any concerns do arise. --Batard0 (talk) 06:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Transclusion error

Hello,

there is an odd error: Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA2‎ and last section of Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky are not the same pages, meaning that the subpage is not correctly transcluded. Could someone fix this please? Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 20:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can work out, Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA1 has been transcluded into Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky and Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA2 has been added (not transcluded) to Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA1. I can't work out what is what, but the solution is to remove Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA2 from Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA1 and transclude {{Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA2}} into Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky, where it aught to be, but it might need some cleaning up afterwards. Pyrotec (talk) Pyrotec (talk) 21:01, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. If I did something wrong please correct. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 08:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Non-free images in video game character GANs

There's a dispute over the use of non-free images in my review of Ibuki (Street Fighter). I could just ask for a 3rd opinion on this GAN, but the same nominator has several other waiting GANs with which I have similar concerns. So it would save time in the future if these could be systemically sorted out in one go. Aside from the one linked above:

• Ayane (Dead or Alive) has a poster and an image from a movie, in addition to the main picture, illustrating similar things.
• Mai Shiranui actually has a GIF of the character, illustrating "Mai's famous breasts bounce effect". There are 2 other images in the article, all showing the same costume and so forth. Aside from the GIF not really showing anything new (it's clear from the main picture what this character is about, without the need for motion), as her "sex appeal" is the character's main selling point, I'm tempted to run wild and say the GIF in all its glory impinges the holder's commercial rights.
• Ada Wong only has two images, but illustrating very similar things (same costume again).

There may be more of these concerns (separate images of the same character taken from all of the game, movie and comic; but hopefully no more GIFs) in some of the user's dozen or so character GANs. They look pretty decent otherwise, so I'm willing to review more if I can just get some consensus one way or another on this issue. bridies (talk) 07:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Prince of Persia (1989 video game) has a huge GIF for years now and no one complained on "commercial rights". Morever, I'd say stuff being on Misplaced Pages is a actually rather a form of free advertisement, when it's not negative that is (the card, in a bigger picture, was shared by Bandai in their advertising blog). If anything, the companies can be just asked about their opinions. (Given that such images are routinely used by countless various other websites, and magazines, I don't think they would suddenly disagree to having a free ad here because of their "commercial rights".) --Niemti (talk) 08:39, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Also Ada's costume in RE2 was actually different ("(same costume again)"). This is the full image: (a badly damaged miniskirt dress with dark tights + bandages). --Niemti (talk) 08:47, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Whether you think the companies would mind having the images here is irrelevant. While the images are non-free, they must meet the non-free content criteria; importantly, more images are not used if fewer would suffice, and images are not used unless they add significantly to reader understanding. It's quite clear that, for some of these articles, that is not the case. J Milburn (talk) 09:07, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

What if I contact them, would it be "relevant"? And no, SNK never sold, or plans to sell, GIF images. If Bandai planned to sell JPG pictures of this card, they would not publish it (in high-res, which they continue to do, for example this was just released) for everyone to see and save for free (they sell actual cards). And images in Ayane's article were also all released precisely for promotional purposes. Also I hardly plaster these images all over these articles anyway, I'm using only between 1-4 (yes, sometimes just 1, like in Leon S. Kennedy), and I'm using free ones (from Commons) whenever I can (like in Claire Redfield). --Niemti (talk) 09:34, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

What if I contact them, would it be "relevant"? No, not really. There are two kinds of images; free images, and non-free images. If the images are free, do what you want with them. If they're non-free, they have to meet the NFCC. J Milburn (talk) 14:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

And getting back to the Ibuki comic cover and concerns regarding sharing it here, too: this picture, along with dozens of others, was even posted on Omar Dogan's (the UDON artist who drew this series) deviantART account. And in many other websites (absolutely legally). And speaking of which, something like that would be actually better. I just PM-ed Omar, asking about it. --Niemti (talk) 10:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

NFC is not a means of legal defense, though it is structured to hit the main points that come up in the evaluation of US Fair Use law as to, at minimum, assert our images fall within it. But instead, NFC is stricter, to maintain WP's goal of being a free content encyclopedia. We use non-frees only when they are essential for the reader's understanding, and avoid duplication. One nonfree image of a copyrighted character is usually not a problem in articles about that character to show what that character looks like, but subsequent ones need to demonstrate significant content to be of appropriate use. Typically these end up being facets like original art and concept sketches, or an alternate version of the character in another medium, but they aren't always necessary. --MASEM (t) 14:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I also think just one non-free image of the character per article is the standard. I could maybe see including an image of an actor as the character (e.g. Ayane (Dead or Alive)), but otherwise, I'd say the extra movie posters and card images, and similar, should go. The crucial point is that they don't add anything to the reader's understanding, since we already know what the character looks like. As for the Prince of Persia gameplay image, I think we've generally agreed that one gameplay picture per video game article is okay. —Torchiest _edits 14:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I think Niemti is referring to the fact that it is an animated (And therefore large) gif. Except here, the game's article specifically calls out to the animation being done via a rotoscoping technique and part of the game's reputation, and even moreso than just a screenshot, serves that purpose as well. It's an example that doesn't apply well to here, though - apples and oranges. --MASEM (t) 14:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Prince of Persia (1989 video game) is a start class article; someone might well complain about it if it were brought to GAN or FAC. But again the point has been missed. The Prince of Persia GIF illustrates at a minimum something that isn't illustrated in the cover art, and arguably something that's difficult to describe in words or even illustrate in a still image. The GIF of whatsherface doesn't show anything not in the main image (same character, same costume) and I would assert that the layman will be familiar enough with the effects of motion and gravity on an ample chest, and that an animation is not necessary. bridies (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

It shows something that "whatsherface" is best know of, which was discussed back then and even remains discussed today nearly 20 years later. It introduced the breasts movement effect to fighting games (something that later became pretty much a defining part of the DOA series), and her boobs move all the time even in the neutral stance when the player does nothing at all (unless in the censored versions, because this was controversial in some places - apparently people in the UK were not allowed to get familiar "with the effects of motion and gravity on an ample chest"). A still image can't properly show this. --Niemti (talk) 15:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

There are no "extra movie posters" there (or any movie posters). I e-mail the companies asking if the use of their images that they released for promotional purposes "impinges their commercial rights" in any way. --Niemti (talk) 15:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

To us, at WP, that doesn't matter at all. The only thing that can change the status of the images is if the company releases them with a license that is compatible with our free ones. --MASEM (t) 15:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

So, "we" are so concerned about the possibility it "impinges the holder's commercial rights" that the actual opinions of holders "doesn't matter at all"? Wow. --Niemti (talk) 15:30, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Mind you, it's a feel-good jester if we can get them to say that while it's still their copyright, its use on WP is okay (such as with File:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg) but that doesn't change how they fit in per NFC policy. The license has to be free for that to be different. --MASEM (t) 15:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

There's a huge difference between a promotional scan of a card, when they are selling actual cards, and the photo that is an intellectual property all in itself. All you can with a photo is to see it, but you can't actually play a GIF taken from a video game. "Apples and orange", you know. --Niemti (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

From what I can tell looking at the Ibuki article and Ayane article, each image has an independent fair-use basis for inclusion and the objection that "the character is wearing the same costume" is totally missing the point of their inclusion as well as ignoring basic aesthetics. Using just two or three images in the article would certainly seem to satisfy minimal use. It is not like there is a good chance of finding freely-licensed images depicting the characters, so I don't really see how the articles fail to comply with the NFCC.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

This and I actually take adhering to the non-free user rationales seriously. The comic book images have it very liberal, and so I used them in 2 of these articles above, but regular books have it extremly limited, so I never used any for characters or other works. Two examples from my current GA nominations: Taki (Soulcalibur) (where I'd like to use the cover of her Queen's Gate series gamebook, because it's quite empty) and Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth (which would use of the novella The Shadow Over Innsmouth, which it is based on) - but in both cases I couldn't do it, because the rationale for books says that the covers can be only used at the top of the articles and the articles should be about the books themselves. I also try to find promotional images, too, if it's only possible. An alternative for Ada would be her in the film (which was just released), and Ibuki's comic cover would be better replaced by this 2-page panel from Omar's dA (showing the duality of the character). --Niemti (talk) 16:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

NFC does not consider anything with aesthetics and images. Secondly, the same restriction on book covers applies to comic book covers (why would it not apple?). NFC use is supposed to be exceptional, and while we recognize the need to demonstrate what a character looks like and allow one use, all subsequent uses much involve critical commentary and discussion about the character image. --MASEM (t) 17:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

You're wrong, and there's nothing theoretical about "why would it not apple". I actually studied the rationales, you know, so I know:

This image is of book cover(s), and the copyright for it is most likely owned either by the artist who created the cover(s) or the publisher of the book(s). It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of book covers to illustrate an article discussing the book in question on the English-language Misplaced Pages, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under the copyright law of the United States. Any other uses of this image, on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, might be copyright infringement. See Misplaced Pages:Non-free content for more information. Fair use //en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations true

To the uploader: Please add a detailed non-free use rationale for each article the image is used in, which must also declare compliance with the other parts of the non-free content criteria, as well as the source of the work and copyright information. For example non-free use rationales, see Misplaced Pages:Use rationale examples. This tag should only be used for book covers. Please include in your fair use rationale details of the particular edition (publisher, market & year of publication) of the edition you have used, and also acknowledge any cover artist if such artist is acknowledged in that edition's frontmatter. If the book cover is in the public domain (see Misplaced Pages:Public domain), then use the appropriate public domain tag rather than this one. Any of the following may be helpful for stating the rationale: Template:Book rationale, Template:Non-free use rationale book cover, or Template:Manga rationale. To patrollers and administrators: If this image has an appropriate rationale please append |image has rationale=yes as a parameter to the license template.

This image is from a comic strip, webcomic or from the cover or interior of a comic book. The copyright for this image is most likely owned by either the publisher of the comic or the writer(s) and/or artist(s) which produced the comic in question. It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of the cover of a comic book to illustrate: the issue of the comic book in question; the periodical comic book series of which this issue is a part; or the copyrighted comic book character(s) or group(s) on the cover of the issue in question; or the use of low-resolution images of a single panel from a comic strip or an interior page of a comic book to illustrate: the scene or storyline depicted, or the copyrighted character(s) or group(s) depicted on the excerpted panel in question; where no free alternative exists or can be created, on the English-language Misplaced Pages, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Any other uses of this image, on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement. See Misplaced Pages:Non-free content and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Comics/copyright for more information. Fair use //en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations true

To the uploader: Please add a detailed non-free use rationale for each article the image is used in, which must also declare compliance with the other parts of the non-free content criteria, as well as the source of the work and copyright information. For example non-free use rationales, see Misplaced Pages:Use rationale examples. This template is only for use with images of comics. Template:Comic cover rationale may be helpful for stating the rationale. To patrollers and administrators: If this image has an appropriate rationale please append |image has rationale=yes as a parameter to the license template.

You can find the 10 differences. Oh, and "at the top of the article" thing was actually about the copyrighted logos (not books). --Niemti (talk) 17:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

And about Ayane's film screenshot (official promotional release):

This image is a screenshot from a copyrighted film, and the copyright for it is most likely owned by the studio which produced the film, and possibly also by any actors appearing in the screenshot. It is believed that the use of a limited number of low-resolution screenshots for critical commentary and discussion of the film and its contents on the English-language Misplaced Pages, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under the Copyright law of the United States. Any other uses of this image, on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement. See Misplaced Pages:Non-free content for more information.

To the uploader: Please add a detailed non-free use rationale for each article the image is used in, which must also declare compliance with the other parts of the non-free content criteria, as well as the source of the work and copyright information. For example non-free use rationales, see Misplaced Pages:Use rationale examples. This is only for images which are screenshots from films. To patrollers and administrators: If this image has an appropriate rationale please append |image has rationale=yes as a parameter to the license template.

The "critical commentary and discussion about the character" is actually needed, and so it's in the caption, and in more detail in the sections "In film" and "Reception". --Niemti (talk) 17:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

These are licenses, not non-free rationales. But even still, the comic book one talks about the character cover use for the issue in question. A character article is not that. --MASEM (t) 17:40, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, licenses. How is "the copyrighted comic book character(s) or group(s) on the cover of the issue in question" not about Ibuki in Ibuki #1? They can even illustrate "the scene or storyline depicted" - do you think there are Misplaced Pages articles about SCENES in comic books? Or "the copyrighted character(s) or group(s) depicted on the excerpted panel in question" - are there any articles about single panels? Of course not. Get real. --Niemti (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Certain scenes or panels in comics may be the subject of sourced commentary - not necessarily their own article, but within context; that's satisfying NFCC#8. But focus on here: you have a character - primary from video games, but that happens to have a otherwise non-notable comic series. The look of the character from the video game publication to the comic is not much different. Since this article is not about the comic but about the character, the use of the cover needs to be the subject of sourced commentary, and not just used to illustrate "here's what her comic looks like". See WP:NFC#UUI #9. The comic book license would apply appropriate if the comic dedicated to that character was the subject of the article, but that's not the case here. --MASEM (t) 18:21, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

And that's why I said, 2 times already (this is the third): that panel (already shared on dA) would make a better illustration as to show something though an illustration (something more than her genki pesonality). And I never said any "here's what her comic looks like", read again what I actually wrote. The license says nothing about "the comic dedicated to that character was the subject of the article" neither, you're just imagining things. And "WP:NFC#UUI #9" pointed nowhere (besides a redirect). You don't even check your won links. --Niemti (talk) 18:28, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

File:Ibuki Legends.jpg has no appropriate rationale that explains how it meets NFCC#8 and NFCC#3a. "Use in a section" is nowhere close to a proper statement of rationale. How does this image help the user to comprehend the article, and how does its omission harm the comprehension of the article? WP:NFC#UUI #9 is the link I meant to write. --MASEM (t) 18:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

"A magazine or book cover, to illustrate the article on the person whose photograph is on the cover. However, if the cover itself is the subject of sourced discussion in the article, it may be appropriate if placed inline next to the commentary. Similarly, a photo of a copyrighted statue (assuming there is no freedom of panorama in the country where the statue is) can only be used to discuss the statue itself, not the subject of it." Okay, aaaaand... whatever it had to do with anything? --Niemti (talk) 18:55, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

That's the license, not the rationale. As per the text of all of those licenses you posted, a non-free rationale is still required. That's why it's important to recognize the distinction here, just because the license says it may be okay, you still need to write a rationale for its use. While the image does have a rationale template and most of the fields filled in correctly, you need a statement specifically addressing NFCC#8. The fact that there's little discussion about visual aspects of the cover in the article presently, likely means that you probably won't be able to meet NFCC#8 (we don't just use cover art decoratively). --MASEM (t) 19:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

But really, what this stuff about magazine photographs of persons or photographs of statues had to do with ANYTHING? I didn't get it. At all. --Niemti (talk) 19:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello? --Niemti (talk) 21:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll also say again about how I used a film screenshot for Claire Redfield (which is also a GA nomination), but then replaced it when I found a free alternative, which was the actress photo from a promo event that I found in Misplaced Pages Commons while checking for what they have about Resident Evil (not much, mostly logos). I really do it right.

Also, I just emailed: Bandai, UDON, SNK Playmore and Tecmo Koei, let's see how much they care (and in the meantime you can wonder how the Wikia gets away with even scores of pictures per character, all kinds of them and often high-resultion, while nobody cares about having a free advertisement). --Niemti (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

If you're in a dialog with the relevant creative authors, you should ask if they are willing to formally release limited numbers of images under free licenses that would enable the placement of those images on Commons (emphasize the publicity value of doing so). This would probably need to be formalized via OTRS for the relevant images, and would bypass the need for fair use criteria. Magic♪piano 18:12, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

This would be highly unlikely, because that would mean them stripping themselves of at least some of copyrights they have. Making something "free" is an entirely different matter than just having them shared in a website, or in a magazine (be it in actual ad paid by them, or in an article by the publishers, in any case they're still the copyrights holders). --Niemti (talk) 18:18, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

And yet, we do have some companies that release stills and other works to free licenses. It's not an outside chance to try, though we don't expect them to do that, as you say. But that's the only thing that can change an image from non-free to free. Anything else less than that that a company can provide doesn't move the image from being covered under NFC. --MASEM (t) 18:35, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Really? Like, for example, what it would be? Anyway, I did point them out to this discussion, so they can do it if they want. But I never planned to "change an image from non-free to free." I'm just using the licenses (of which this for comic covers and panels is by far most liberal), that's all. I didn't create these licenses, you know. I don't uploaded massive numbers of these images, neither. Usually it's 1 or 2 (including these already existing). I also look for free pictures if there are any available, I actively search for promotionally-released images to use, I'm lowering theeir resolution and sometimes cropping them, all the other stuff I should do I do (and what so many other people do not). --Niemti (talk) 18:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Several indie video game developers have allowed us use of their game images as free - they still control the copyright on the overall work and the characters, but the stills are put into free for illustration (See, for example Awesomenauts). I know the chance of a large scale company willing to do that is low, which is why we don't require that type of check, but if you happen to have anything more than just a fan relationship with them, then there's a possibly of getting some free images to use. --MASEM (t) 19:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding my previous post and how I roll: Like, with Yuffie Kisaragi (a GA already) I wanted to post a film screenshot, as she looks entirely different (and yes, there's a critical commentary about it in the article), but I couldn't find anything good enough enough online - and I have this principle that every file should be sourced to a website (I see so many pictures where they just write something to the effect of "promotional image" as a source while posting HUGE hi-res images, like this one today, and they get away with it - I know because I was asking for such images to be deleted, but to no avail). I really know what I'm doing and I do it right. --Niemti (talk) 19:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

NFC sourcing does not require being sourced to a website, only enough information that we can validate the original publication. A user-taken screenshot of a film is completely fine as long as its explained in the source where it can be re-validated. (eg "A shot from around 30 min into the film"). Large size images can be tagged {{non-free reduce}} to mark them for reduction. --MASEM (t) 21:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Generally, I would say cover art for a work discussed in the article easily satisfies NFCC#8. I did notice that an RfC was initiated on the matter at the NFCC talk page where discussion was generally favorable towards allowing cover art in any articles where the work is discussed, but was used to make a change saying it was only allowed on articles about the work. Upon noticing that I restored the previous wording of NFCC.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:52, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but that added footnote was from a recent discussion. Note: the list in WP:NFCI is not exclusive meaning that what is listed is not the only acceptable use of cover art, just that the only clear allowance for cover art is on articles about the work the cover represents. Any other use requires demonstration of all NFCC points. Ergo, just because a work is mentioned in an article (that is otherwise not about the work) does not give us allowance to use its cover, though if there is critical commentary about the cover, then there cause. --MASEM (t) 21:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Masem is correct- This is the way it has been for many years. Devil's Advocate, merely discussing a work does not magically mean that the cover art of that work is suddenly significant. Equally, merely discussing a person does not mean we need a non-free image of their face or discussing a company does not mean that we need a non-free logo of the company. J Milburn (talk) 21:28, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I get that neither of you really like any non-free cover art being included without the art itself being the subject of critical commentary and only begrudgingly accepted it for articles on the works themselves, but consensus and the wording of the NFCC does not seem to support that position even in these cases. You are appealing to a consensus view that does not appear to exist.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm assuming you're talking to me there, but I have no idea why you believe that I "only begrudgingly accepted it for articles on the works themselves". You're putting words into my mouth, which is not fair. Again, there is a strong consensus in favour of the NFCC, including NFCC#8, and common sense dictates that discussing a work (say, an album) in a related article (say, about a singer) does not automatically mean that the related article is going to be significantly worse-off without the cover of the work. That's what NFCC#8 requires. This isn't as complicated as you're trying to make it. J Milburn (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

We're not discussing persons nor companies. ("Apples and oranges", pineapples or hand grenades.) Anyway, would it be cool-er for you two to use this spead showing the dichotomy of the character? --Niemti (talk) 21:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Non-free images are supposed to be exceptional. That's the requirement by the Foundation, and is not up to consensus. And you need to get your head out of trying to read between the lines and wikilawyer it - it is the principles behind NFC that are being pointed out. Okay, so you're talking about a video game character and we're making references to people and companies. The same logic must apply to both, and as noted, the lists on WP:NFC are not fully exclusive, and ergo we have to consider how the logic behind them extends to other types of works. So if we don't allow covers of magazines to be used to just illustrate articles on the people themselves, the same applies to fictional characters, unless there is something exceptional about that cover that has critical commentary in the article. --MASEM (t) 22:00, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that was really an answer to my question. Anyway - persons (especially living ones) are actually "exceptional" on Misplaced Pages, with their own set on rules. And the photographs are complete works - unlike parts of comics, which is more like like citing a part of a book (poem, song, article, any written form). A single image is very unlike posting a whole comic (not to mention comic series), or the photo (because a single reproduction of the photo is the entirity of this photo). But that wasn't even what I asked for. --Niemti (talk) 22:06, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

No, the rules for living persons fit within our overall scheme in the same way; the only reason they are highlighted that if a person is living, it is nearly always possible to get a free image of them, highlighting how NFCC#1, no free replacement, works. And as to your question, you're asking about a spread but I don't see any image link to judge this. But that said, giving the text in the article presently, I would warn there's almost no way a non-free image can be used to show the comic in any form, as the text is perfectly understood without the use of the image, failing NFCC#8. --MASEM (t) 22:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I posted the link earlier in the discussion, it's the fourth one. You even answered this post. --Niemti (talk) 22:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Assuming it's this one, no, that won't work because you've already illustrated the dichotomy between her school life and ninja life by the infobox image and the sketch one; this would duplicate that. --MASEM (t) 22:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

And if I, say, posted the one with the Gekis (for example), and then moved stuff about how for years it was commonly assumed that SF1 character "Geki" was her father, until the comics addressed this issue by basically creating her as a character with actual backstory (which became canonical from that point on), to the caption of it - would it become fine for you? (Or even use the current image but with this caption.) --Niemti (talk) 22:47, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Given that the character was primarily a video game character to start, using the comic image as the infobox image is somewhat misdirecting, though arguably it could work there. But as a second separate image to show the comic, that's not really a strong reason. You've just explained the fact to us right here - that they fitted her into another character's backstory for the comic. --MASEM (t) 23:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I just did what? Geki had no backstory before the comic. It was just a character named "Geki" to beat in the original game in 1987, but for some reason there were widespred rumors that it's Ibuki's father after she was introduced in 1997. Alright, check the article now. --Niemti (talk) 07:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

• Missed much of this, but no: the comic image does not satisfy NFCC 8. In an article about the comic, yeah, but here the character is already illustrated in the exact same manner (the aesthetics, if they matter, are the same) in the previous image. All this illustrates is that she appeared on the cover of the comic, something the layman would easily understand if stated to him in words: the image does not significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic and its omission is not detrimental to that understanding. And this further violates point 3.1: Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information. The first and third images are not significantly different. Further, I don't understand all this pontificating over the licence tags (that is licence tags, not licences): these things are informative tags that generally describe the free license under which an image is released; in place of this, for non-free images they just provide a boilerplate rationale because uploaders often don't seem able to provide them. All Niemti's been using to defend the images' inclusion is essentially a non-specific FUR. And if one actually looks at Niemti's (or at least, these articles') FURs one will see they're incredibly weak and inadequate. For the comic image in question, the explanation for why it meets criterion 8: "The other media section", that's it. And for an explanation as to why it doesn't violate no. 3? "All fine." bridies (talk) 01:33, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

• Well, I think the image from the comic illustrating Ibuki's claimed duality is a pretty strong NFCC argument so if replacing the cover with that would be satisfactory then I can't see why the matter should be held up. Masem's objection to that image is not very good from my perspective as the concept art and game art together only illustrate that a kick-ass ninja also has comfy clothes. It does not illustrate the character's "fantastic duality, juggling her school and ninja lives in the same way a superhero has their secret identity and super self" that is detailed in the comic book.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:16, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that new image was added before or after my above comment, but the problem now is that the second image - the one which illustrates she "also has comfy clothes" - is redundant. Inherently, "duality" has only two things to be illustrated, and we don't need three overlapping images to do so. bridies (talk) 10:06, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually I can agree to this. EOT? --Niemti (talk) 10:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

The use of the duality image replacing the schoolclothes one is better. However, you dont need to flood the caption with all the stuff that once was in prose; the image just needs to be close to where in the prose you're talking about the duality. --MASEM (t) 13:25, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

• I think we know have an amenable solution for the Ibuki article. Further input on the others is welcome, otherwise not imperative. bridies (talk) 12:26, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Review request

I am not sure if submitting requests is discouraged or not, but I am hoping to have the Woodstock Library article reviewed sooner than later. In one week I will be meeting with Multnomah County Library staff to begin planning a local Misplaced Pages Loves Libraries event. One of the goals of the edit-athon is to improve MCL-related stubs. The Woodstock Library (branch within MCL system) article would serve as a model for other branch articles. I seek no special treatment, nor expect any corners to be cut. I just think having a reviewed model would be better than an unreviewed model. Any assistance would be much appreciated. --Another Believer _(Talk) 20:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

By the way, the article can be found under the "Art and architecture" section. Thanks. --Another Believer _(Talk) 20:48, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

• I will review it: Talk:Woodstock Library/GA1. maclean (talk) 04:11, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
• I don't mean to steal Maclean25's thunder, but I think you've still got quite a bit of work to do before showing this article to the library staff as any kind of a model for anything. I've left a few representative notes on the review page. Malleus Fatuorum 05:10, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Happy to respond to your feedback ASAP. Thank you both for your assistance--I want to be able to present the best possible article. --Another Believer _(Talk) 13:34, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

An alternative to backlog drives

I've recently been trying to do one GA review a day, and it strikes me that if 10 or 15 other reviewers tried to do the same thing the backlog would be gone in a month or so. But perhaps the lure of a backlog drive barnstar is too great

One other thing that strikes me is that many of the older nominations are virtually unreviewable for various reasons, which is why they're among the older nominations. My suggestion is that we become more aggressive in quickfailing such articles, while offering a few suggestions on how to fix the obvious problems such as the relative length of a plot summary in a book or video game article for instance. FAC has the idea that articles nominated there ought to already meet the FA criteria, and I see no reason why GAN should be different. Another problem the backlog presents is that nominators are not infrequently failing to engage with the review, either because they've left, they've lost interest, or they're too busy with other stuff; I've recently twice had to fix an article myself rather than fail it, which really isn't ideal.

My fundamental point is that by nominating an article at GAN, nominators are asking "does this article meet the GA criteria?" It should be easier than it is to say "no, it doesn't, and here's why". Malleus Fatuorum 20:55, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if it is about interactions and the worry that a fail will induce a negative one, so maybe one more about etiquette than criteria per se? Alternatively there is the seven day time period and you can leave some notes and if there is no response over that time just fail it. I agree about being more proactive with older ones - something I should definitely do as well........actually just having a look at the quickfail criteria I see your point. Is it worthwhile adding a criterion along the lines of - "article is grossly misbalanced contentwise - significant topic areas are either missing or overdetailed." - and/or prosewise "prose requires major rework to be sufficiently smooth enough for GA status" Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:26, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd definitely support something along those lines. As I said, there are very good reasons why some nominations languish for months. Malleus Fatuorum 21:40, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I stopped reviewing articles because I was told having a userbox with the number of "GA reviews" I'd done on my user page was wrong by an editor who said he had done more than 500. Kinda blew the wind out of my sails. So I stopped. I've left three four open. Should just close them as failed? MathewTownsend (talk) 00:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Depends on why they're still on hold. Malleus Fatuorum 00:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

because I'm not doing GA reviews any more. Can't make myself do them. Became unpleasant for me after your comments to me on another page, pointing out that you were so much more experienced and that I was presumptuous putting the that I had done 189 in a userbox in my page. MathewTownsend (talk) 00:55, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I do wonder what you consider "inexperienced" reviewers. I guess I'm in that category even though several I've done have gone on to become FAs. All in the eyes of the beholder I guess. I've been, apparently, determined as incompetent my Malleus, so it be. MathewTownsend (talk) 01:34, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I think Malleus's suggestion is a sensible one. It seems that, too frequently, old nominations are picked up by inexperienced reviewers, when, in fact, they have (sometimes, by no means always) been left alone because they are problematic, and reviewing problematic articles is not as rewarding as reviewing strong ones. I also support Casliber's addition to the quickfail criteria, but I can imagine that some would object because of the element of subjectivity. J Milburn (talk) 00:57, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

well, that's not an answer to my question. (None of my reviews are "old nominations ... Picked up by inexperienced reviewer", but I get the message.) Since this has been weighing on me quite a while (what I should do since it has been pointed out that my reviewing is numerically up to par with Malleus and thus he can ridicule me), I'll take the ignoring of my question to mean that I can do as I like then regarding the four open ones. Since I have been determined by Malleus as "inexperienced" although several of my article reviews have gone on to become FAs, I'll bow to Malleus' evaluation and not review more. MathewTownsend (talk) 01:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Not sure why you should care what someone else thinks about your experience, since you must know you're a more-than-competent reviewer, but if you want to wind up the reviews and haven't done anything with them yet there are two better ways than just failing them. One is to find someone (or someones) to take over the reviews, and another is to just up the page numbers in the GA nomination templates by one and remove "onreview" (or "onhold") from the status field. That ends your review and leaves the noms on the GAN page waiting for a new reviewer to arrive. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:42, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Gotta agree with that. MT, you know your review are good, as do I. If someone whining about a damn userbox is what keeps you from reviewing, then shake it off. We're short on reviewers as it is and that combined with my lack of activity here have definitely stalled things. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:39, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

MT is not telling the truth. Malleus Fatuorum 03:42, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

ok, I really stopped because Malleus Fatuorum accused me of intentionally vandalizing his post (no AGF for me) when I was just trying to copy the link to his article in his post for my reply and screwed it up. He characterized my unintentional remove of his Tickle Cock Bridge article in his post as "Puritanical replacement", a slur because he seems to dislike almost all Americans. (Americans are stereotyped as Randy in Boise on wikipedia.) Malleus Fatuorum said to me "if you took the trouble to look you'd see that I've done more than 500 GA reviews". He checked out my co-FA and decided I've contributed "almost nothing to it" and "you've never written anything worth spit". I don't want to risk such an attack by him again by continuing to review GAs. It'll be only a matter of time before he finds a stupid mistake I make and specifically starts in on my work here. It's not worth the chance of being ridiculed, though I enjoyed the reviewing immensely and always tried to do the right thing. MathewTownsend (talk) 16:55, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Does it really matter which person is "right" over something so trivial? As long as reviews are getting done and things are progressing little things like boxes or whatever are irrelevant. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:19, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that depends on whether or not you believe the truth to be important, as opposed to the twisted and contorted versions of the truth put forward by your friends. Malleus Fatuorum 04:32, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to spot here, but as BlueMoonset and Wizardman said, Mathew is an incredible reviewer and an experienced one. I support Mathew in everything he does and I consider that Malleus attitude is not the irhgt one. Additionally, Mathew, you don't have to take care of what one person thinks of your work if the rest of us know you are good. — ΛΧΣ21™ 17:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

That you, Hah21. But Malleus_Fatuorum is right; I unintentionally didn't tell the truth. It was Nikkimaria who mentioned I had on my userpage "my dyk", "my barnstars", "articles I started". All Malleus_Fatuorum said was "Basically it's OK for him to list "his" articles on his user page, but not for anyone else to list "their" articles anywhere." So I have now removed all "my"s from my user page. Malleus_Fatuorum checked out my co-FA and decided I've contributed "almost nothing to it" and "you've never written anything worth spit", and about a two sentence article I wrote:

"To choose just one of MatthewTownsend's articles at random, Peter Askin had only 165 views last month; even Gropecunt Lane managed to put that in the shade with more than 10,000 views, as did Tickle Cock Bridge a mere GA that still had almost ten times the page views of Peter Askin." Your saying about my attempt to copy the link to your article: "I was objecting to was your Puritanical replacement with "::::::::"."

(so much for AGF), and Malleus_Fatuorum continued: "I've done more than 500 GA reviews, so I've likely got a better idea of what I'm talking about than you have." When someone asked a question, you answered with "That's a question you ought to be addressing to MathewTownsend, whose hypocritical and insulting comments started this mess." etc.
If my other attempts to contribute to wikipedia are ridiculed and I'm valued only for my reviews while my attempts to learn to write articles is ridiculed, then my enjoyment of reviewing is lessened immesurably. MathewTownsend (talk) 18:12, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I think quickfails and queue length are inextricably related problems. Since the queue length is so great most of the time, I have pre-nominated articles based on my projected availability and the length of the queue, only to have someone come along in a backlog drive, review it immediately and fail it. Oookay. And then, they yell at me for renominating it immediately to put it back in the queue. Sigh. People gripe about the queue length, and then gripe about when experienced editors rely on the queue length. If there were consistently no queue, then there would be no incentive for editors to stack up articles to try and get a place in line. As is, it's also a huge insult to an editor to have a GAN in queue for two or three months, and then be reviewed and failed for something fixable... while it's certainly the prerogative of the reviewer, it's non-collaborative. And, for the record, I see no reason why editors shouldn't proudly display the number of GA's they've reviewed--I do, and have for years, even though the number has been quite stable for a while. Jclemens (talk) 02:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Neither do I see a problem with that, but I do see a problem with lying, as MathewTownsend has done above. I've had a count of the reviews I've done on my user page for as long as I can remember. Malleus Fatuorum 03:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with your cause and effect, Malleus. I've nominated four articles recently, and so did four reviews - three of which were the oldest entries in the sports and recreation queue, two of them nearly three months old. All of them passed relatively easily, one without even placing on hold. What I have noticed is that since the sports and rec queue was broken out of everyday life - and therefore moved from the top of the page to the bottom - that queue's backlog has nearly doubled from 35ish to 70ish. and I would say the entire reason is the lack of visibility. As that section went farther down the page, it became less frequented by reviwers who tend to grab from the top. Thus, I think the problem is a combination of lack of reviewers, and lack of visibility. We need to find a way to get these queues visible to the people (wikiprojects) most likely to deal with them. Perhaps, encourage the members of various sports and rec projects to step in and clean up that backlog. Same with film and arts. Try to encourage people to take a greater interest in reviewing.

That being said, I do think montioring new entries for obvious quick fail criteria is not a bad thing. There is probably little more demoralizing for an editor new to this process to wait two months only for a quick fail. If we can catch those right away, we can gently instruct those users on what needs to be fixed for a faster re-list and a better experience. I wonder if we couldn't get a bot programmed to list new entries (akin new article patrol) that checks obvious things - potential copyvios, ratio of sources to article length and the like, that would allow a human reviewer to easily spot such articles and lend advice to the submitters? Resolute 05:01, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I can think of something more demoralising: to spend hours on a review only to be met with complete silence by the nominator, which often happens with the older nominations. Malleus Fatuorum 05:20, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, that hasn't been my experience. Maybe if you're concerned about that you could check the nominator's recent contribs and/or leave 'em a note on their talk page to make sure they're still interested before taking on the review? Jclemens (talk) 05:29, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Please don't try to teach me how to suck eggs. Malleus Fatuorum 05:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

While responding to a helpful suggestion in such a manner certainly doesn't alleviate the problem, it does a rather good job of making me wonder why anyone would ever try and offer aid to you twice, Malleus. Engaging another editor who's trying to brainstorm solutions to your articulated problem in a positive discussion, even if you think their suggestions ineffective, would be a good way to keep the dialogue going. Jclemens (talk) 08:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Haven't I made it very clear elsewhere that I don't have even the slightest interest in anything you have to say? Malleus Fatuorum 17:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I can certainly agree with that, but like Jclemens, it has not been my experience to see a lack of response from a nominator. For those three very old nominations I mentioned above, the editors all responded to my review within 24 hours. If your experience is different, and it appears it is, then perhaps we need to look for common threads. i.e.: are you reviewing articles from newish editors, or in certain queues? If we find a pattern to abandoned nominations, we can more effectively find solutions. Resolute 15:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Right folks, back on topic...

Right, getting this back on track. How about something along the lines of (to go under criterion 6):

7.The article contains major gaps in coverage, and/or goes into great and unnecessary detail on a particular aspect of the subject. (Note that in this case the nominator reviewer should be able to clearly specify the issues involved to the nominator)

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Discussion

• I consider that we really don't need this one. We can always fail the article if it has major gaps in coverage or goes into unnecessary detail, So why would we re-instate this as a quickfail criteria? — ΛΧΣ21™ 17:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

8 (or 7 if the above doesn't pass) .The article's prose is globally poor and needs a complete going-over by a copyeditor to even get to a stage of fine-tuning to good prose.

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Oppose adding this

Discussion

• I do like the idea of this one as I find you really need a good couple of goes to massage prose sometimes. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:15, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• I agree with Casliber but I don't like how it is written and won't completely support it until it is rewritten. — ΛΧΣ21™ 17:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)