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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TParis (talk | contribs) at 19:07, 3 October 2012 (→Comments by others about the request concerning JCAla: My experience with Darkness Shines). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Factocop

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Factocop (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – T. Canens (talk) 06:05, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

3 months topic ban, imposed at above thread. Archive link

Administrator imposing the sanction

Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Factocop

In relation to above enforcement case, I feel the need to appeal a 3 month topic ban on all things The Troubles. This appeal is based on the fact none of my so called disruptive edits have been on The Troubles related pages. This appears to be a topic ban based on my conduct on user pages and breaking WP:POLEMIC at my own page. For apparent incivility and WP:POLEMIC, I have already served a 48hr ban, so why am I now serving a 3 month topic ban if none of my petty edits were on the said topic? Surely if this ban is based on behaviour at user talk pages I should be banned for 3 months from editing on user talk pages? Factocop (talk) 22:57, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Obviously the reasons for my sanctions are not clear, so please in point form outline the reasons...as far as I can see my sanctions are for petty incivility on talk pages, and unrelated to the topic I am now banned from. That doesnt make sense.Factocop (talk) 18:55, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Timotheus Canens

The reasons for the topic ban was explained in the original thread, and I don't have much to add. The proposed "ban from user talk pages" is a nonstarter. You simply can't work in a contentious topic area without interacting with others. T. Canens (talk) 07:48, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Factocop

Result of the appeal by Factocop

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Per Timotheus Canens, I see no reason to overturn the sanctions imposed. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
• Agreed. Sanctions stand as enacted. KillerChihuahua 15:13, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

JCAla

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning JCAla

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

JCAla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Afghanistan-India-Pakistan discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. In this edit, JCAla chose to make a blanket revert of several intervening edits. which I had done separately deliberately so as to make them more easily discussable and revertable individually. This edit:

   • reinserted a piece of textual plagiarism that presented the opinions of an unreliable source as a fact in the article's own editorial voice
   • removed a justified POV tag
   • reinserted a dead link to an obviously unreliable self-published source
   • removed a recently added bit of uncontentious, well-sourced and obviously pertinent, neutral information
2. talk page posting making a blatantly WP:OR argument about why we should ignore an obviously reliable and pertinent source criticizing Massoud
3. talk page posting making yet another blatant OR argument about why he chose to quote an important source selectively, using it for sourcing criticism of Massoud's opponents but omitting the obviously pertinent fact that it also criticizes him (cf. )

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

JCAla is a single-purpose agenda editor whose purpose on Misplaced Pages is to glorify the memory of Ahmed Shah Massoud, one of the warlords of the Afghanistan wars of the 1980s and 1990s. Over the course of two years, single-mindedly, he has turned this article into a POV screed, unabashedly tendentious, written in a tone of fawning admiration throughout, a quote-farm crammed full of block-quotes and pull-quotes from opinion pieces revelling in admiration; in short, a hagiography (his version from early May: ; most recent version of his: ). His editing has included severe distortion and falsification of sources, in an attempt to gloss over one of the last remaining bits of criticism of Massoud that he couldn't simply ignore (see earlier report at ANI here)

He has remained almost entirely unopposed for years, owing to the shortage of good-faith editors in this topic domain. Since May 2012, I have made attempts to clean this article up. These efforts have been faced with a brazen-faced campaign of filibustering and stone-walling from JCAla and his sidekick Darkness Shines (talk · contribs). JCAla's tactics include blanket reverts of just about any change I propose , excessive walls of text on the talk page and on related noticeboard threads, and an extreme display of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.

His edit-warring has earned him two blocks since May (with five earlier blocks since September 2010, all for the same topic), and has forced full protection on the article three times. For the last few days, talkpage discussion has been done under close surveillance by Casliber (talk · contribs), who clearly warned JCAla that he must allow the article to be cleaned up from non-neutral elements and that continued tendentious editing might get him blocked . His most recent revert clearly demonstrates that reasonable cooperation towards neutrality is simply not possible with this person. JCAla is completely impervious to the idea that having a tendentious quotefarm for an article is bad. He simply doesn't want the article to sound neutral.

Re. to Salvio giuliano and RegentsPark, about my alleged "refusal to use dispute resolution": I stand by the way I acted; it was the only option available. All known methods of dispute resolution on Misplaced Pages rely on a combination of two factors: (a) a minimum degree of common ground and shared commitment to the values of the project between the parties involved, and/or (b) availability of clueful outside opinion to break any impasses. When neither of the two factors are given, as was the case here, conventional dispute resolution necessarily fails. This is demonstrably what happened here. If you have one side whose attitude is simply an impermeable brickwall of denial and a downright refusal to even acknowledge the idea of NPOV as a goal to strive for, and if all attempts at mobilizing outside help have repeatedly failed, then the time for dispute resolution is over, and the time for administrative action has come. In that case, the task of administrators is to take action against the root causes of the problem – the tendentious editing –, not against its symptoms (the reverting). That moment, when administrators ought to have become active and blocked the offenders, was several months ago. If administrators are too damn lazy to get their act together and take the ten minutes needed to understand the root cause of a situation, and act accordingly, as happened several times in this affair, then don't blame us if we resort to reverting. In such a situation, for an administrator to stand idly by pontificating about the need for "discussion" or "dispute resolution" to a good-faith editor who knows for a fact that any such discussion can be no more than a waste of time, is nothing but a show of cynical laziness and incompetence. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Was a listed party in the Arbcom thread imposing discretionary sanctions

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• Notified:
• (Notified Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) too, now that sanctions against him have also been suggested . Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC))

Discussion concerning JCAla

Statement by JCAla

With regards to the diffs allegedly showing a violation of general sanctions

I made a revert because of excessive content removal - including a complete change of the lead (!) - by Fut.Perf. in the first of his recent edits. He reverted to a disputed version although it had been opposed multiple times and not just by me. The reasons were clearly laid out on the talk page by both Darkness Shines and me. Casliber who has been acting as a kind of “third opinion” on one previous, recent content dispute announced in his last post to the topic that he also would give his input on the reasons soon. That was the latest understanding. Casliber unprotected the article under the premise that any "complicated bits" – such as the lead issue undoubtedly is – would be discussed on the talk page. But Fut.Perf. restored his favourite version without taking any note of the input, information and objections by other editors.

As I am not aware how to undo the first edit - the complete change of the lead and the massive removal of content - without undoing the subsequent partly uncontroversial edits automatically, I was about to work the part of the subsequent edits that is uncontroversial back into the article.

• Re this I was about to readd the “bit of uncontentious, well-sourced and obviously pertinent, neutral information”. (Interestingly, I had provided this very information on the talk page just some days ago.)
• Further I wanted to readd the POV tag, and remove the dead link again. (Why would I want to keep a dead link?)
• Re this and this: While I wanted to remove the plagiarism also, I wanted to paraphrase the text in a way that doesn´t let information fall under the table. Also, I wanted to add “according to U.S. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher” whom Fut.Perf. has now labeled as an unreliable source although the man was a member of the Committee on International Relations and is a chairman in the Foreigh Affairs Committee (U.S. Congress).

But as I was working on conducting these edits, Fut.Perf. had already conducted another full revert himself. So, I couldn't get those edits done. I didn't revert again but instead sought input from Casliber.

I should mention that in the subsequent edits, however, were also some controversial changes. Fut.Perf. tagged a clearly reliable, academically-published source (Webster University) as unreliable although talk page consensus was that the source clearly meets WP:RS. As for the accusation re posting my opinion on the talk page, besides the things mentioned by me being true, I wonder if Fut.Perf. is now trying to censor what information or opinions people are posting on talk pages. There is clearly no offense there.

Further notes

I am certainly no single-purpose editor. I have edited over 200 different pages mostly in the Afghanistan-India-Pakistan topic area and yes, that is a difficult topic area to work in because people tend to be passionate about the issues. My two earliest blocks though were due to reverting the sock puppet (farm) master User:Lagoo sab (at a time when admins didn't know about the socks but it was already apparent to Afghanistan editors). I have created several articles, among them: I cleaned up many Afghanistan-related articles, as an example most recently this one: Just some months ago, I had started to overhaul the Massoud article also. You may wanna look at the "Early life" section of the Massoud article as an example and see the result.

Fut.Perf. simply misrepresents the reason the article had to be protected so often. Please see the history of the article and see what happened between Casliber unprotecting the article (18 September) and Casliber's renewed protection (27 September). In the course of these disputes several administrators warned everyone including Future Perfect at Sunrise to not edit war any further but to discuss on the talk page which at least I intent to do.

Ahmad Shah Massoud was one of the best-known anti-Soviet resistance leaders and the main anti-Taliban and anti-Al-Qaeda leader in Afghanistan. Fut.Perf. labelling him with the offensive term "warlord" shows us where he stands politically on this issue. He likes to portray himself as the one cleaning up and is citing one editor (Cas) who has preferred his version in one single, very limited content issue with a note posted on my talk. I accepted this and for now do not plan to object to it, it is in any case an issue which has nothing to do with the current dispute. Fut.Perf. fails to mention that he has been proven wrong on some other issues in which he made blatant attacks against me. At one point he changed the content in the article claiming Massoud was not a part of the Rome Process, thereby falsifying sources. Fut.Perf., once again making accusations against me, states:

“ … the Rome Process, as a neutral, non-belligerent party, were holding parallel peace talks both with Massoud and the Taliban. Their proposal was not an anti-Taliban "alliance" (as JCAla has persistently tried to present it) but a "Loya Jirga" that would include the Taliban together with all other parties.”

The sources clearly identify the group involved in the Rome Process as planning to overthrow the Taliban and as involving Massoud.

Comments by others about the request concerning JCAla

• I suggest a six-month topic ban for JCAla and Darkness Shines from this article. Too many obscure articles are WP:OWNED by POV pushers these days, who amusingly then invoke WP:LONGTIME. A google books search for "Ahmad Shah Massoud warlord" quickly finds serious academic publications using that label for him, e.g. this book, which is published by a far more reputable publisher than Webster University Press. The various labels given to him should probably discussed, e.g. using , but the resident wiki-hagiographers definitely need a vacation. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:50, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Interestingly, this source you cite, says itself that the term is used in a pejorative sense. Afghanistan experts normally have a different kind of vocabulary. JCAla (talk) 14:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The book which says "warlord" is pejorative has received a very poor review in WaPo though . So I wouldn't hold my breath on its accuracy in general. Two of the three books you cited don't seem to call him anything in particular. Amin Saikal indeed calls him only "Commander" with capital C. Bruce Riedel has no qualms about calling him warlord . I'm not buying that this so pejorative we can't use it. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:45, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Let's not get this side-lined. Nobody proposed calling him a "warlord" in the article, and there's never been a debate over it either. I used that term here in a talkpage posting. JCAla's attempt at constructing some ulterior political motives on my part based on that choice of word is preposterous, is all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:49, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• • I'd strongly recommend placing any sanctions not just on this individual article, but on all of Afgan history. The conflict over POV cleanup has so far only been fought out over the Massoud article, but JCAla has filled a substantial number of other articles with pretty much the same kind of stuff (sometimes literally the same stuff, copying over large swathes of text). This goes for Afshar Operation, Taliban, Civil war in Afghanistan (1992–1996), Civil war in Afghanistan (1996–2001) and others. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:33, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
    • As I told Fut.Perf. multiple times before, these articles are not owned by me. The content has been brought together by different editors over years. He also removed content once added by third party editors in his recent edits. I suggest anyone to read the history of hounding and battleground mentality by Fut.Perf. outlined in the below threat. He is clearly using this venue to get people he has a content dispute with banned. JCAla (talk) 14:11, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
    • I am also starting to get fed up with this constant bashing and attempted defamation by Fut.Perf. who makes it look like as if I had been working with only one source (Webster University). Among other, I introduced content from the following sources to the article are:

      Oliver Roy. Islam and Resistance in Afghanistan (1990 ed.). Cambridge University Press

      Shahram Akbarzadeh, Samina Yasmeen. Islam And the West: Reflections from Australia (2005 ed.). University of New South Wales Press

      Roy Gutman. How We Missed the Story: Osama Bin Laden, the Taliban and the Hijacking of Afghanistan (1st ed., 2008 ed.). Endowment of the United States Institute of Peace, Washington DC

      Neamatollah Nojumi. The Rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan: Mass Mobilization, Civil War, and the Future of the Region (2002 1st ed.). Palgrave, New York

      Amin Saikal. Modern Afghanistan: A History of Struggle and Survival (2006 1st ed.). I.B. Tauris & Co Ltd., London New York

      Ahmed Rashid. Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia. Yale Nota Bene Books

      Steve Coll, Ghost Wars (New York: Penguin, 2005)

JCAla (talk) 14:32, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

More WP:SOUP. I never charged JCAla with using only this one source. Another red herring. I do maintain, however, that he has been over-reliant on this source, which is of dubious reliability, as shown on talk. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Ahmad_Shah_Massoud#Bootheel_Publishing_book should be relevant for this case. Tijfo098 (talk) 16:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• As mentioned below, re KillerChihuahua, I was the one to suggest to an admin to look into Fut.Perf.'s history before Fut.Perf. opened the AE case here. So, I also brought my initial grievance to AE. JCAla (talk) 16:52, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
• I'm not going to say anything about JCAla because I have nothing positive to say and not enough time to look up diffs. As far as Darkness Shines goes, though, I have encountered him in this topic area on Taliban and my experience with him is that he can be very reasonable and work in collaboration with his 'opponents' (like me) when he isn't influenced negatively by others. I strongly suggest that he not be topic banned just yet and given a stern warning instead.--v/r - TP 19:07, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning JCAla

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Without commenting on anything else or proposing any sanctions at this time, I note that calling a fellow editor a liar is unlikely to encourage mutual respect and a positive outcome. Strongly suggest you strike that, JCAla. KillerChihuahua 15:00, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
• I am inclined to enact the suggested 6 month topic ban for JCAla and Darkness Shines; certainly for JCAla, who has compounded the error of his actions by calling an editor who holds an opposing view a liar, and opening a duplicate case in apparent retaliation. KillerChihuahua 15:54, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

  I have already responded to JCAla here on my talk page. There is no need to repeat the same issue on different pages. KillerChihuahua 17:02, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

  Thank you, FuturePerfect, I thought DarknessShines had already been notified. I appreciate your notifying him. KillerChihuahua 17:10, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

  I really don't think the case is that clear-cut. While I unfortunately lack the time to elaborate more in detail right now, I emphatically don't think we should lay the entire blame on only side, especially when the other has repeatedly refused to follow WP:DR, despite being the suggestions he got from uninvolved admins, preferring to resort to edit warring instead; so, although I agree the other report should be closed as redundant, I believe that we should also examine FPaS's conduct. Salvio

  Like Salvio, I don't have the time to look at the specific diffs presented here but I agree that the case is not a clear cut one sided one. Personally, I would urge both editors to return to the talk page and seek other methods of dispute resolution rather than making an AE report. I'll try to research this latest flare up (will need to see the content diffs to figure out what's what) but can't really get to it till this weekend) but, based on past editing patterns, I don't believe a ban on any of these editors from editing these articles is appropriate. --regentspark (comment) 17:27, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• As JCAla has expressed his desire to add evidence, and DarknessShines must be given a chance to post here prior to enacting any sanctions, I will of course not be enacting anything as yet, regardless of my initial inclination. Rest assured, I will not act in haste. KillerChihuahua 18:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Future Perfect at Sunrise

Dlv999

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Dlv999

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Ankh.Morpork 13:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Dlv999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Standard discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 14:47, 25 September 2012 Removes paragraph without consensus
2. 14:20, 2 October 2012 Removes another paragraph without consensus

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Blocked on 13:36, 9 May 2012 by The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs)

Background

• On 23 September 2012, T Canens placed Zoological conspiracy theories (Israel related) under new restrictions.
• These prevented any addition or re-addition of events without talk page consensus. They did not impose any restrictions on removing existing article content.
• Anticipating the potential abuse of these restrictions: that editors could remove any content with impunity in the knowledge that any re-insertion was subject to editorial restrictions, I sought guidance from Arbcom. I was advised by Hersfold that abuses of these restricitons should be addressed to AE.

Dlv999

I am of the view that the edits he executed deliberately exploited the restrictions placed on the article, and he avoided any attempts at collaborative editing.

• The paragraph that he removed here had been in the article for a considerable amount of time. The section had been discussed by various editors in different threads.
• After a discussion in 20 February 2012 in which a series of explanatory points were made, Dlv999 stated "After reflection I have decided to withdraw from further involvement on this article and its talk page." This was his last comment on this issue. Dlv999 himself had previously contributed to the very section that he would later remove.
• Yet, six months later and two days after the restrictions were placed on the article in September, Dlv999 proceeded to remove this entire paragraph. He made no comments proposing its removal nor did he subsequently explain it on the talk page. He ignored the unaddressed points made in February.
• This behaviour repeated itself. After a discussion here in which two editors supported the inclusion of particular content, Dlv999 again removed the entire section without any established consensus.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

@Dlv999 - Re that email in June, I suggest you quote that sentence in full. I do not object, and in fact actively encourage you to present that message in its entirety. Since it dates to June, I no longer have it in my archives so cannot quote from it verbatim and therefore request that you present it fully. I am certain that you have failed to contextualsie these comments and have grossly misrepresented my well-wishes sent after I noticed you had stopped editing three months ago. To pretend otherwise is shameful.

Full context reads: Hiya. I've noticed you havn't been around for a while and been your usual active self. I dislike you as an editor and I find your views abhorrent and I am sure this will not come as a surprise to you. Yet there is more to life and people then political views and I genuinely hope that all is well in your life.

@KC The cases detailing clear cut violations of 1rr are the easiest to assess, often based on a cursory perusal of the diffs. However, where the sanction sought is discretionary sanctions, admins have a much more difficult task in assessing the merits of the case and should make sure to analyse the context of the edits.

The potential for the gaming of these novel restrictions concerned me and I was advised at Arbcom to pursue instances of that here. I was told "If there is concern that these restrictions could be wikilawyered into introducing bias into the article, that should be raised at AE, with evidence to support the concerns if possible." and it thus that I found myself here noting once again the fallibity of the restricitions and their subsequent abuse.

I provided two edits showing unconsensual removal of large amounts of content and I am of the view that if you examine the nature of those edits, they reveal an exploitation of the restrictions imposed. (e.g. an edit removing content 2 days after the restricitons were imposed, having last participated in a discussion 6 months ago) By themselves, I agree that they appear fairly innocuous but taken in the context of the recent restrictions, they are highly disruptive. Editors that have never participated in I-P topics before have expressed their dissatisfaction with Dlv999's editing; I think a thorough assessment of them capably demonstrates why. Ankh.Morpork 19:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Dlv999

Statement by Dlv999

I am not trying to game the system or avoid collaboration on this article. The article came under my radar because of the recently closed AFD Discussion. Many arguments for deletion were that a lot of the content is WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and WP:COATRACKING, some of the arguments to keep the article accepted that some of the material does not meet Misplaced Pages standards, but maintain that this is not grounds for deleting the entire article. My aim was simply to remove the material that does not meet Misplaced Pages standards, my thinking was that it would be easier then for the community to decide whether the remaining material that is well sourced warrants an article or not.

Regarding the first diff, the basic rationale is here. The edit was made over a week ago and despite the article being under a high level of scrutiny because of the AFD and request for clarification not a single editor has raised an issue with the edit on the talk page. Of course I would be happy to explain and discuss further should anyone query the edit on the article's talk page.

The second diff was made after discussion on the talk page. The edit was made on 2nd of October after waiting 6 days in which no one had responded to my argument for removal made on the 26 September . This edit has since been reverted, and I haven't tried to edit war the content, instead I have engaged further in talk page discussion to resolve the issue.

Regarding my involvement back in February, at that time I was a very new editor and still getting to grips with Misplaced Pages policies and processes. The reason I withdrew from the article at that time was that I felt that the complainant was in breach of 1rr and had failed to self revert when challenged. At that time I did not have the experience as an editor to deal with such behavior so I felt the best option was to withdraw from the page and let more experienced editors deal with it.

I don't think the complainant has presented a scrap of evidence that warrants this AE case. The complainant has previously stated to me in an email that "I dislike you as an editor and I find your views abhorrent and I am sure this will not come as a surprise to you." I do not recall ever having discussed my personal views on this website, but unfortunately I think the user has jumped to his own conclusions and it is likely a motivating factor in this case. Dlv999 (talk) 14:46, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

@Ankhmorpork, the pertinent sentence is quoted in full, without omission. You are perfectly entitled to post any other parts of the message you feel may be relevant to this discussion. Dlv999 (talk) 15:26, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Dlv999

• The article has been moved around numerous times in an attempt to change its focus and enable various parts of it to be deleted on a whim, despite what the reputable sources, such as the BBC, say these events represent. The latest deletion by Dlv999 is just another move in that game. Dvl999 has contributed only tendentious arguments on the talk page; see for example his argument that Turkey is a secular country (as if Egypt were an Islamic republic), an argument which Dlv999 made to contradict the clear connection made by the BBC correspondent of that event with the IA conflict. I support a topic ban of Dvl999 from that page. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:12, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
• Note that the paragraph was restored by User:Dream Focus whom I haven't heard being described as a pro-Israeli POV pusher before. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:23, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments by AndyTheGrump about the request concerning Dlv999

I suggest that this request is best summarily closed as the facile attempt to restore highly questionable material that it clearly is. AnkhMorpork, a long-term pro-Israeli SPA, singularly fails to point out that the clear consensus regarding the article during the recent AfD discussion has been that it needed cleaning up, and that coatracking material of questionable relevance to the article topic (which seems incidentally to have been changed yet again - without prior discussion ) should be removed - and as the talk page discussions that AnkhMorpork has already provided show, it was clear that the 'pigs' incident was seen as of dubious relevance to an article on 'conspiracy theories'. Instead it was about actual pigs causing real problems. Likewise, the 'bee-eater' incident was clearly off-topic for the article (prior to the move without consensus) as it had nothing to do with any 'Arab-Israeli conflict'. The removal of off-topic material was entirely in accord with consensus both on the talk page and during the AfD discussion. Sadly though, AnkhMorpork has failed to take heed of the comments made during the AfD debate (which ended in a 'week keep' on what might best be described as equivocal grounds), and is yet again attempting to turn the article into the pro-Israeli propaganda piece it was prior to the AfD discussions and other recent edits. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you please pinpoint the consensus in support of removing the material at issue? I don't see any sort of discussion regarding the pigs and there was no consensus for removal regarding the bees (I was not involved). See . Outside of attacking Anhkmorpork I don't see how you are helping DLV's cause. In addition, please note the potential gaming by DLV99 - by removing the material sans consensus, the material cannot be readded to the article unless an uninvolved admin decides that there is a consensus for re-inclusion (per the current rules for the article), thus creating an unfair burden to reinsert the material that was never supposed to be removed to begin with.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

In the bee eater discussion there are two editors in favor of deletion and two in favor of retention. One of the editors in favor of retention commented after my edit so cannot be taken into account when assessing my actions. At the time of edit only one editor had objected, and no-one had responded to my argument for removal for 6 days prior to the edit. Given that the criteria for adding content only stipulates a suggestion on the talk page for 48 hours without objection it is hard top see how I am gaming the system in this instance - I have not tried to edit war the content since being reverted, I have instead discussed the issue further on the talk page. Dlv999 (talk) 15:45, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Why are you ignoring the fact that Activism1234 had only recently added that material. Do his views not count? Ankh.Morpork 16:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

From what I can tell the material was added by an IP editor Dlv999 (talk) 17:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

If you were gaming, the gaming would play out by the removal of the content and then forcing the unnecessary burden for its reinclusion. The special rules regarding this article apply only to adding material not removing material. I guess this reflects more on the poor and strange idea to add these rules to the article, as the opportunity for gaming is very easy to come by.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

But you must admit that I haven't done that. My edit was reverted (re-adding the material) and I haven't tried to force its removal - I went to the talk page to gain consensus. Dlv999 (talk) 16:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, according to the timeline you now present, when you removed the material about the bees there was no consensus for its inclusion at the relevant thread. We don't know whether you were aware that the removal based on a barely consensus would now cause its proponents a difficult burden in reinserting the material despite the fact that the material was in the article for years, but we are required to assume good faith. This is why the new rules are silly.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Meanwhile, back at the article the active arbitration remedies are being violated yet again. It is now quite evident that the contempt for Misplaced Pages policies shown by the pro-Israeli propagandists shows no bounds, and they won't rest until the article once again resembles the heap of shit it one was... AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

One editor removed a section because he objected to the word "conspiracy", and said unless they called it that, it shouldn't be in there. That's just ridiculous. So I added it back in, and you just took it out again. Why does the exact word have to be used in the coverage? Is there any sincere doubt this qualifies as a claim of conspiracy? Dream Focus 17:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

From the arbitration remedies, as set out on the talk page:

No editor may add or readd any alleged instance of a conspiracy theory, unless such addition or readdition has been proposed on this talk page at least 48 hours in advance, and either

No objection was made to adding or readding the content; or

An uninvolved administrator determines that there is a consensus to add or readd the content.

Had you proposed to read the material 'at least 48 hours in advance'? If so, can you provide the link which demonstrates this? Can you also show that 'no objection was raised'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:21, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I didn't read that before hand. Seems like unnecessary nonsense, since there wasn't a valid reason given for its removal in the first place, but whatever. I'll go and discuss it in there then. Dream Focus 17:32, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

And before you do that, are you going to remove the other material you added without prior discussion? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:44, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Never mind - did it myself. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Brewcrewer about the request concerning Dlv999

I invite KillerChihuahua to explain the rationale in topic banning AnkhMorpork where no allegations of wrongdoing on his part appears to put in evidence.

I would also advise KillerChihuahua to perhaps wait more then two minutes before editing his/her regarding AE threads. KC's decision regarding this thread is time stamped within two minutes of his decision regarding another AE thread. See & . Any reasonable editor including myself are sure that KC thought about both threads before but decided to edit both threads in the span of two minutes. It's almost impossible to read a bunch of comments, examine a bunch of diffs, analyze the evidence, think about a result, and edit the result in two minutes or less. However as not to give the impression of unfairness, as if the decision was made based on looking at the names of the parties, it might be prudent to wait more than two minutes. The appearance of confusion is also germane in this instance, where the proposed result appears to favor sanctioning the submitter of the report and does not appear to be supported by any diffs or allegations. Just my advice of course. Nobody is required to accept it.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:13, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

@KC. To be 100% clear, I never accused of you of any bias and really don't believe you have any bias, but am curious as to your rationale. Best,--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Jethro B about the request concerning Dlv999

The first diff cited by Dlv99 is an edit on an AfD, an AfD whose consensus was to keep the article. In it, Dlv99 cites as an example the pig conspiracy, and discusses it. I don't think this should qualify as a discussion. Firstly, many editors choose not to get into heated arguments on AfDs, and save that for talk pages. These types of edits should've been to the talkpage for discussion with others, not as "an example" on an AfD, which many others will see no reason to respond to, A) Because it's an AfD B) Because it's just an example.

Dlv99 cited this edit to show that "The second diff was made after discussion on the talk page," and only removed afterwards. I don't see consensus anywhere supporting Dlv99's request to remove it. I see Dlv99 demanding it should be removed ASAP (so why would he wait 6 days?), and Tijfo098 explaining it's silly to semantically argue Turkey isn't Arab or part of Arab-Israeli conflict. It's a short, brief, 1-1 discussion, without consensus to remove, and with a reason that seems to me as well to be bogus. Then he cites a second diff to show he continued discussion, yet this is showing that another uninvolved editor disagrees with Dlv99's removal (Dream Focus). Consensus? I think not...

In short, what's happening here is that editors who don't like this article are looking at the restrictions, and realizing that they can use them to remove material and if there's a protest, just argue against it so there's no consensus to put it back in. If the argument needs to be "Turkey isn't part of Arab-Israeli conflict," regardless of the fact Turkey severed ties with Israel over a flotilla over Gaza, etc, then that will be used to make an edit that removes the info. We've seen already two unvinvolved editors go against Dlv99's removal - it really had no merit without a discussion first. Personally, I think the restrictions should be modified to avoid this, perhaps requiring section removals to be discussed first as well, but the point is, right now it seems like it was being exploited.

Lastly, I agree with Brewcrewer that a topic ban for Ankh isn't warranted here. Ankh did not remove or insert the material mentioned here, he simply filed a good-faith AE request regarding behavior that he viewed as problematic. A sanction against Dlv99 is supported by Tijfo098 as well, who to the best of my knowledge is not involved in I-P. If the admins don't think Dlv99 should be sanctioned, great, but I don't think it should boomerang on Ankh. I respect Killer Chihuaha as an admin on ArbCom here, but I do seriously urge this to be rethought and changed, or perhaps there are other admins who disagree with this.

--Jethro B 18:09, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

@Killer Chihuaha - As noted above, I disagree with this, but at the very least, if there is something wrong with this request, shouldn't Ankh be advised against filing such requests in the future, rather than topic-banned? Consider this AE that Nableezy filed against me when I first started editing, where you wrote in the final decision that you "advise Nableezy to be more circumspect about what cases he brings here." Nableezy wasn't actually topic-banned though, simply warned/advised. Now Nableezy has been around here and opened up, or has been the defendant in, far more AE cases than Ankh, I believe. So I think that if this should apply in that case, the same should certainly apply here, if it is agreed by admins that the AE request doesn't have merit. There are quite a number of editors here, including some uninvolved in the topic area, who have argued otherwise, and believe that the case does have merit and Dlv99 should in fact be sanctioned. So definitely, at the very least, a warning should suffice. --Jethro B 18:15, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Dlv999

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Propose either no action, or a three month topic ban for Ankh.Morpork. KillerChihuahua 15:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Brewcrewer: There was certainly no need to take any time to scan the other case and see it should be speedy closed as a (possibly vexatious) duplicate of the case immediately prior, which I saw when I came here to post my proposal for this case. Your accusations are without merit. I know neither of the parties, and have no bias. I reply here out of courtesy for your concerns; I will not engage further. KillerChihuahua 17:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Brewcrewer: The evidence AM has given is incredibly thin; two edits which are less than clear violations. It appears that AM may be trying to use AE rules gaming to ensure a win in a content dispute, rather than work with other editors; or perhaps he is merely being hasty in filing this case. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but I will need to see far stronger evidence than I see now to sanction Dlv999 at all. Ankh.Morpork has opened 3 cases here and commented on about the same number. He is aware of the need to show clear violations via diffs; two of the cases he opened led to no sanctions imposed and one to the indef topic ban of the editor he reported here. While we try to ensure no one knowingly edits counter to ArbCom restrictions, we also try to ensure cases brought here actually belong here. KillerChihuahua 18:01, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Jethro B : As my first proposal is for no action taken, I think you are overly concerned about whether AM will receive any sanctions. I would like to hear from AM as well as other noninvolved admins. KillerChihuahua 18:26, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

But yeah, you're probably right that it only merits advising. KillerChihuahua 18:27, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Dream Focus is not named in this request, but is apparently aware of it and finds following ArbCom remedies "unnecessary nonsense" - am I missing something here? Dream Focus, you are aware you are violating and when offered the chance to revert yourself, you failed to act? KillerChihuahua 18:45, 3 October 2012 (UTC)