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I just tagged 800 untagged images, I sure could use a slice of cake... Congrats on Time 100! --Rory096
Just stopping in for a snack while on RC-patrol. I guess I'll settle for a nibble of ems' slice... --Alan Au06:04, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Foiled by an edit conflict! ...and here I was sure ems had passed on his piece. I'll have to go find some spam to nibble on instead... --Alan Au06:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
There is currently an arbitration case involving geo-politics that may very well be the poster case for some of the few shortcomings, certainly problems in Misplaced Pages. One of the arbitrators involved, User:Jayjg`s neutrality in regards to this specific case has come into question, yet he has gone ahead emanating some tilted proposals (objected to by other arbitrators as “over kill ”) against the same editors whom in the past he had obstreperously disagreed with in POV. Despite the diffs showing otherwise, naturally our dear Jayjg does not agree that he should recuse/distance himself from the case (in legal lingo; contributing to “non-statuary aggravated factors ”), and sees his past relations with those editors as irrelevant, but at this point the blocking of a group of well-intentioned editors unjustly, may be irreparable. Jayjg, unfortunately, has had some complaints against him before accused by others as perhaps passionate in his POV edits to the point that his admin status many times presents a conflict of interest in various cases. The positive productivity of Wiki recently been undermined by some bad press. I think their concern was that they saw a trend developing here: Please look into this, since this seems serious enough to warrant your intervention. ThanksZmmz21:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear Jimbo:
I just wanted to drop a note and thank you for your quick response via email. If you feel it is appropriate, then I would say that`s pretty much good enough for us. ThanksZmmz00:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there any sort of list of your usernames at other wikis?
Mr. Wales, first off you're a genius. Second, I was wondering if we could start a Cut Spelling Misplaced Pages. Can we please?Cameron Nedland00:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
For those who are wondering: cut spelling. If this gets approved, of course (good luck), it would probably just be a simple algorithmic conversion of Misplaced Pages—there's no reason to have a separate Misplaced Pages. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Question about french wikinews
Dear Wimbo, I ask you because of, we are making a vote about the french name of wikinews. You know that the others information web-site of wikimedia association having their name in proper language (Wikinoticias, wikinews,...) so some persons in french wikinews have propose to vote for an over name of the project, a name in french language. My question is if in your opinion, we are in our right? One user (Divol) say that "wikinews" is a copyrighted mark and we can't change it. The web-adress is posession of wikimedia foundation so we can not also change it. Even if the vote is oppose to change, what can you say us about it? And if the people vote for change, what can we do? thank you--Jonathaneo08:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Different projects often have localized names (although the domain name will always remain in English: fr.wikinews.org, never wikinouvelles.org or whatever). See, for instance, Wikilivres, or Wikiźródła. Thus, I assume there's no problem with it, although Divol's thought about trademarks is reasonable. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:18, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Re:BIG problem
Here you said: "The problem we are seeing, again and again, is this attitude that some poor victim of a biased rant in Misplaced Pages ought to not get pissed and take us up on our offer of 'anyone can edit' but should rather immerse themselves in our arcane internal culture until they understand the right way to get things done. I do not know what is going to change, but something BIG has got to happen and SOON about this issue, because the amount of time it is consuming for some of our best editors is getting way out of control." This is part of the larger problem of too much freedom of anyone to edit at any time has caused adminship to be a time-waster that encourages edit-warrier attitutes and knee jerk banning and reverts. I highly recommend changing the at any time part. Why does that have to be 24-7 for everyone? Liberal use of protection would also help. Why on Earth waste admin's time with babysitting sensitive articles when they can be protected from anyone who hasn't had a username for less than a week? Your time is too valuable to waste like that. My time is too valuable to waste like that. Respect for the time of the volunteers is important too. Who wouldn't get a little edgy battling vandalism hour after hour? The cost in causing warrier attitudes is all by itself enough reason for more liberal use of page protection. While someone waits a week to be able to edit a biography, they can edit something else less sensitive. Yes, anyone can edit. But why sensitive articles 24-7? WAS 4.25017:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Um, I think you're saying the exact opposite of what Jimbo said. He was reinforcing the idea of "anyone can edit" by saying that newbies should be able to edit without having to first figure out what the ground rules are supposed to be. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
It looked like he was talking about people editing their own articles, not merely bad editing. I think in the future advanced AIs can fix things like this--already there is the Tawkerbot. For people editing their own articles, this is one person. Daniel Brant (however it's spelled) didn't like his own article and disputed it a lot and was eventually banned. The real problem is it a topic of interest to a group, and people of that group are 99% of the ones who edit the article. So the people who edit such articles put all sorts of misinformation and spin in to make the group look better than it actually is. If the group is considered wierd, they make it look normal. If the group is considered racist or illegal, they make it sound harmless--I've read talk pages of articles about many racist groups and pro-pedophilia groups and there's all this complaining that racists/pedos edit the article to their agenda. And articles about things that belong to say a geek fandom that is non-controversial, likely are filled with spin because nobody challenges them. DyslexicEditor05:14, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm someone who was incorrectly labeled a sock puppet, so I see things from a different point of view. I can empathize with the amount of time that administrators put into reverting vandalism, but it seems that you bring most of it on yourself. After being banned, unbanned and banned again (judged only by one mistaken person) after doing nothing but undeniably making articles better, and after going through all of the "proper channels" and having no action taken, I'm so frustrated that an "improper channel" is starting to look quite attractive. Why do I feel like I'm being forced outside the clique when I have so much to offer that could benefit this encyclopedia? David (Pole star) 16:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
All you have to do, Pole star, is sign up for a new account and start making decent contributions in a way that doesn't make admins think you're out to cause trouble. That shouldn't be so hard. SlimVirgin17:14, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
All you have to do, Pole star, is sign up for a new account and start making contributions that coincide with SlimVirgin's agenda, and you won't get indefinitely banned as yet another editor who meets with SlimVirgin's disapproval, and is ipso facto a sockpuppet of someone bad, and therefore deserving of swift justice from SlimVirgin. --Daniel Brandt 68.91.252.1617:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that's exactly what Jimbo was talking about in the quote at the beginning of this section. I was here for only one week when I was banned. I was banned by judgement of one person because I didn't know about Zephram Stark. I didn't know that we aren't supposed to make an article better when Zephram Stark (or someone suspected of being Zephram Stark) first made the change. Even if I had read your mountain of policies, that bit of information isn't in there. Now SlimVirgin suggests that I create an alternate account to circumvent my ban. Is this an admission that there is no way for a productive editor such as myself to work within existing policy? All I want to do is try to make articles better. I don't care about Zephram Stark or what SlimVirgin thinks he did. If an article is better, it should remain that way and the person who made it better should not be banned or called a sock puppet for doing it. All of this should be legal and I shouldn't be expected to break a policy by secretly creating a second account under false pretenses. David (Pole star) 17:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
"Statement placed here by Jimbo Wales at 18:01 UTC, 20 February. Do not remove or modify wording without good reason
It should be noted that use of such userboxes is strongly discouraged at Misplaced Pages, and it is likely that very soon all these userboxes will be deleted or moved to userspace. Their use and creation is not recommended at this time."
Do you have something against people expressing their beiefs?
Dudtz 5/5/06 4:57 PM EST
Yes, of course. I am deeply opposed to free speech. Now, given that this is obviously silly, why did you even ask me the question? The userbox problem is not about expression of belief, but about factionalism and general stupidity.--Jimbo Wales21:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok,so you are opposed to factions,you probably have your reasons,but how is it stupidity.
Some of the belief userboxes probably are silly,but you should not remove the whole lot.
Dudtz 5/5/06 5:17 PM EST
Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy.
Bureaucrats
Users with "bureaucrat" status can turn other users into sysops (but not remove sysop status), change usernames, and flag and unflag bots accounts. Bureaucrats are created by other bureaucrats on projects where these exist, or by stewards on those who don't yet have one. Sysoppings are recorded in Special:Log/rights or Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrat log for activity prior to December 24, 2004. Sysoppings by stewards are recorded at Meta:Special:Log/rights but the few stewards who actively sysop users on the English Misplaced Pages do so using their local bureaucrat status, making this distinction rather academic.
Why is there a position called "bureaucrat"?
Dudtz 5/5/06 5:31 PM EST
Misplaced Pages isn't a bureaucracy, but if some users want to call themselves bureaucrats anyway, what's the harm? Jimpartame01:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
For the same reason that the second-highest level of privileges is called "steward". Those that Misplaced Pages gives more power to are supposed to have no more authority, and they are therefore generally not given names that would imply superiority. (Admins are, of course, the glaring exception.) A "bureaucrat" is someone who enforces laws and policies, not someone who makes them, so it's more appropriate than most alternatives. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I must disagree with you here - the term "admin" refers to an administrator, which in a office or university is considered to be the lowest rank of work as they spend all their time with paperwork. THe term has acquired a different meaning on the Internet, but in essence it is still the same. Having SysOp over SysAdmin is an excellent idea. --Xyrael10:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Not just on the Internet, but with respect to technology in general. An administrator of a computer generally has full access to the computer, among the highest permission ranks if not actually the highest. An administrator of a website (which Misplaced Pages is) is typically someone with the ability to directly edit site files to some degree. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
A bureaucrat is a person of bureaucracy.Dudtz 5/7/06 9:49 PM EST
Mostly, the term bureaucrat devolved to find a term which would imply serving and following the will of the community. Bureaucrat is a rather odious name, but it implies exactly that. The reason for bureaucrats' existence is that different projects can, and do, hold different criteria for granting permission levels; stewards cannot possibly know every single procedure in every single Wikimedia wiki out there. Titoxd01:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Does that mean that Misplaced Pages is a bureaucracy now? Or is it just a non-bureaucracy with some members who like to act like bureaucrats? (Not that there's anything wrong with that :-) Jimpartame01:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg is becoming a problem
Misplaced Pages has a member of the arbitration committee who is falsifying CheckUser reports. Jayjg is very passionate about his work, but this isn't the first time that his passions have needed to be reigned in for the good of the project. I feel strongly that Misplaced Pages must let him continue contributing only as an editor. Here is proof that he has lied about CheckUser results.
Jayjg claims that I am Zephram Stark based on CheckUser results and other unspecified factors . As you can see here , my IP number is 4.231.20.95 or similar. My home service is through Level 3 Communications Inc. and I live in San Antonio (something you can verify through ip-to-location.com).
Jayjg also claims to have CheckUser verified that Pole star is Zephram Stark . As you can see here , Pole star's IP number is 67.150.222.251. According to ip-to-location.com, that IP number is registered to PAC-West out of Seattle, Washington.
Jayjg also claims that SR Bryant is the infamous "banned user" Zephram Stark . As you can see here , SR Bryant's IP number is 4.249.57.71, placing him in the vicinity of Reston, Virginia.
I don't know what criteria Jayjg is using for his accusations, but it isn't a CheckUser. He is lying about that. --Kaspersky Trust03:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
This planet will know peace when all of its children have a homeland. Jayjg should not be expected to apologize for seeking this peace. --Dotan15:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Dotan is him too. Zeph, what you have to understand is that long before anyone had check-user access, we had to work out who the sockpuppets were based on posts alone. That experience has produced exceptionally well-honed linguistic analytic skills. I'd give it up if I were you. :-D SlimVirgin03:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
WOW, can you teach me your advanced linguistic analytic skills so I can be super smart just like you? Jorgegorom21:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
On your kind invitation to edit your page, I moved the poems to a sub-page
because I felt that many of them were not exactly showcase material (if anyone who wrote them is reading this, I trust they won't take it personally). Someone has partially reverted me , leaving an situation where they now exist both on the main page and on the sub-page. Given the difference of opinion, I think it's best to refer it back to you and ask you to either complete the revert or undo it as you prefer. Thanks. Arbitrary username20:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I wrote a couple of the poems dedicated to Jimbo Wales. Which ones do you think are "not exactly showcase material"? Don't worry, I don't take it personally, I just want to know what you dislike about the poems. Jimpartame21:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't think it's helpful for me to discuss them individually. Rather, I just wanted to flag that there is difference of opinion about them collectively, and so it's best for Jimbo to decide. Arbitrary username21:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
If you're saying there's difference of opinion, it's important to find out what your opinion is. I wrote "Cyberspace sometimes is scary," "Jimbo Wales is really couth," and "All over the world, people cheer." I really don't mind if you don't like something about those poems, because getting feedback is useful for me. I'd like to know why you don't like my poems so that I can do better in the future. Jimpartame03:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
You're teasing out of me a little more than I intended to say, so please nobody be offended. Okay, here goes. The difference of opinion is not particularly regarding the truth or falsehood of the actual statements made in the poems (such as those you've quoted), but whether or not they are a good addition to this page. I personally think that they are of poor literary merit (but that's basically an esthetic thing so there's no point asking me to analyze it further). Maybe more importantly, I think that they are sycophantic in tone, which makes it look like Misplaced Pages is a kind of Jimbo-personality-cult, which I don't think is helpful. I could speculate whether Jimbo feels the same way about them as he did about moving the barnstars to a sub-page, but I thought it better just to ask him. Arbitrary username15:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Which ones seem sycophantic? They look pretty NPOV to me, but feel free to write your own if you want to represent more sides of the issue. Jimpartame23:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
About the origins of the catalan wikipedia
Hi and sorry for my English. I'm a member of the Catalan Misplaced Pages and I wanted to improve our article of our own wikipedia but, looking for information, I realized that it was the second wikipedia to be created. There's a contradiction because our administrators say that the French Misplaced Pages was created before, but some users of English Misplaced Pages told me that the Catalan Misplaced Pages was created on 1. March 2001 and the French Misplaced Pages on 15. March 2001. Moreover, I'd like to know why did you choose the catalan wikipedia to be the second (or third) wikipedia to be created because I think that it reveals the politics (all the knowledge in every language) of he wikipedia, but I'm not sure, because I've also heard that the creation of the catalan wiki has something to do with the avaiable space in the servers. These suspicious contradictions make me ask to the founders, that's to say, you, when was created the catalan wikipedia, why did you choose this language to be the second wikipedia and what did you want demonstrate with its creation. I know that my petition isn't easy to understand, so if you have any question, ask me. Gangleri2001 (Talk to me)
Misplaced Pages's Integrity: Does Anybody Care?
Jimbo,
Over the last few months I have worked hard to raise a red flag about extremist groups using Misplaced Pages for propaganda purposes. I have now brought the issue to the attention of those at the very highest levels within the Misplaced Pages community.
Now that I have gone through all of Misplaced Pages's bureaucratic hoops, what steps are being taken to correct the problem? How are policies being changed to prevent advocacy groups from using Misplaced Pages to disseminate propaganda?
There is widespread agreement that "Societal attitudes towards homosexuality" is not an impartial article written by impartial people, but nobody cares enough to fix the problem. Is leaving the same group of editors in charge of the same article supposed to produce different results somehow? How long will it be before the article claims a correlation between natural disasters and Protestantism again? Now that this has been brought to the attention of the powers that be, what mechanism has been put into place to prevent that from happening again?
Can it be that nobody in the Misplaced Pages community, yourself included, cares about the integrity of Misplaced Pages? I have suggested several approaches to help prevent this kind of misuse of Misplaced Pages in the future. Is Misplaced Pages going to adopt these approaches, or will you continue to ignore the problem and discipline whistleblowers instead?
We all know that ArbCom knows how to give users the boot - they do it all the time - but who is going to actually fix the problem?
Jimbo's job is to create an environment of transparency and communication. He has done his job very well. According to the teachings of Ayn Rand, this should enable the rest of us to cause conflict with society and persevere to achieve our goals. Those who persevere without physically imposing their ideas on others will eventually find consensus. To the extent that the environment maximizes the effectiveness of objectivism while minimizing the effectiveness of physical force, it promotes useful growth. Jimbo has succeeded in creating a Randian environment that far surpasses anything this world has ever known, and we have the useful growth of Misplaced Pages to show for it. The Wiki engine has taken us as far as it is going to. Further growth at Misplaced Pages is up to us. It depends entirely on whether or not we buy into the hierarchical system that so many administrators are trying to push. By coming here and petitioning Jimbo to fix your problems, you are giving him and the rest of the hierarchical system the power to do so as they see fit. Such hierarchical power cannot create a consensual resource. The goals you seek of integrity and impartiality can be won only through individual pursuit of rational self-interest.
If you believe that a dictate from above can create impartiality, it won't matter how great of an environment Jimbo creates for us. --Team Shocker19:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
"Individual pursuit of rational self-interest" has created this article: . This article is controlled by a group of gay advocates who claimed in the article that "damage from natural disasters correlates with Protestantism". This is a group of editors who compared ingesting semen to taking vitamins... in the introduction!
Claims are added to the article, not for the benefit of the reader, but for the purpose of "convincing the people in the center to change their opinion" and "changing voters' minds". (Those quotes come directly from the talk page where strategy is devised to craft the article "from the gay rights advocacy point of view" - another direct quote).
This environment has not "maximized the effectiveness of objectivism". It has allowed a group of a dozen gay advocates to use a supposedly neutral encyclopedia to promote their agenda.
I am not saying that Jimbo has not "done his job very well". I am saying that the system is badly broken and needs to be fixed. And yes, that will require "a dictate from above".
There is currently no mechanism to prevent a group of extremists from controlling an article and using it to push propaganda. Until there is such a mechanism, we don't have a neutral and high-quality encyclopedia; We have this:
Mr. Franklin, you're impassioned plea for top-down control is eloquent, but it won't do you any good in a Randian environment. Here, you must be your own hero. Here, each person's happiness is their only moral purpose, and productive achievement is their most noble activity. If Mr. Wales were to use physical force to, as you put it, "correct the problem," Misplaced Pages would stop being a Randian environment. If Misplaced Pages were to stop being a Randian environment, it is very likely that you would not be here. Even if you were here, content approval would filter down from the top, making you nothing but a slave: a worker with no control or compensation. Perhaps you feel that way now, but the solution lies in the path opposite from the one you espouse. Requesting mandates of force from above will make articles more out of your control, not less.
When you say "that the system is badly broken and needs to be fixed," the keepers of the system can only look at that from a general Randian perspective. No software will be written, nor will any dictatorial measures be levied, to address your specific concern of homosexual "propaganda." The only positive action that can be taken in a fundamentally Randian environment is to make the system more conducive to objectivist philosophy, thereby better enabling the heroism of all individuals. To that end, we welcome any specific ideas for how to improve the Wiki engine. --Team Shocker16:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
In a true Randian system, people would trade shares of sysop time on an open market, and the invisible hand would ensure that those people best able would have the authority when it was needed. This system has a beauracracy (the sysops and ARBCOM) who are, in effect, like the looters who ruined Taggert Transcontinental. WP:NOT your Randian dreamtopia. Yesterdog23:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The SysOps and ArbCom are not meant to be part of a Randian dreamtopia. They are necessary constructs to make up for real limitations in the system. The Wiki engine is a monumental first step toward a stable objectivist society. It is proof of concept beyond anyone's expectations, but it is a relatively simple database design that has its limits. The engine doesn't input everyone's POV and output consensus, but it comes closer to that aim than anything else in human history. We have this amazing resource of Misplaced Pages as a result. The next step is to make a better engine. As server space becomes less expensive and processing speeds improve, a more robust database design will bring us closer to a true Randian environment. --Team Shocker02:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that if we take Rand seriously, as you seem to want to do, creating a good Misplaced Pages would clearly be supporting the looters instead of realizing oneself as a rational individual. Trolls, obviously are like Francisco D'Anconia, helping to defeat the looters from within. True Randians would start their own internet. And a separate wikipedia with a password like, "A is A, and I will never do work at my own expense to benefit others, I work only to promote my own ends as a rational being". Right? Yesterdog02:40, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
If anyone needs me, I'll be hiding in the mountains until all Wikipedians are fairly compensated for their work and the unjust centralized control of Misplaced Pages is ended.-Polotet03:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Is Misplaced Pages's objective to be an "encyclopedia of the highest possible quality" or is Misplaced Pages's objective to be "Randian"?
When the reader goes to an encyclopedia for objective information and instead gets propaganda, does he care that the encyclopedia was Randian? (Speaking of propaganda, did you know that "in most developed countries, same-sex relationships are accepted as normal and natural" ?)
What good is being "Randian" if your encyclopedia is biased and wrong?
Misplaced Pages as it exists today has policies, committees, and a structure. But it doesn't have policies that work to prevent groups that push their agenda here. So why not fix those policies?
I'm glad that you "welcome any specific ideas". There are many ways to fix this. Here are a couple:
The article I have been involved with should have been removed months ago. A group of radical homosexuals organized and would revert my corrections. Since there were more of them than me, I was not able to correct the article. They would game the system to get me booted for 3rr when I tried to make changes. They would take turns removing my corrections so they wouldn't get blocked for 3rr (since no one editor reverted my changes more than 3 times). But since I did make the changes more than 3 times I would get the boot.
Since I could not correct the article, I nominated it for deletion. But guess what? The same group of organized gays (and their friends) was allowed to vote on the RfD! Obviously they weren't going to vote to remove their own propaganda, so the RfD never had a chance.
It is a very bad idea to have the same group of people who created a biased article decide whether it should be deleted or not. One way to solve this problem is to task ArbCom with the removal of biased articles. Under the current model, ArbCom will not get involved in the deletion of articles because they don't feel that it is their function. That should be changed.
Another way to solve this problem is to form a "POV Removal committee". This new committee could be formed to identify articles that have a long history of being abused by groups of zealots. These articles could be removed, at least temporarily. Misplaced Pages users could petition this committee to make a determination about what they believe to be biased articles. Members could be appointed to the committee based on how moderate they are. Extremists of all types would be excluded from the committee, or would at least be balanced (one lefty for every righty).
This problem is real. When readers see articles that are crap they are less likely to return. We should at least endeavor to fix the problem.
Lou, you're discounting the power of individual action. Don't ask people to form a committee. Become the committee. Misplaced Pages as a society should never force editors to achieve its goals. Instead, you should act to carry out your goals yourself. I think that if you started a POV Removal Committee, you'd be able to convince others to join. The goal of productive editing of articles is highly valued here. Jimpartame02:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd join. Maintaining NPOV is easy. Most all of it is just citing your sources within the article. X says this and Y says that. The narrative voice of the article doesn't assert anything controversial. The reader can choose to believe X, Y or neither. The article doesn't make that choice.
Lou, whether or not you agree with objectivist philosophy, it is the core concept of an encyclopedia that "anyone can edit." Placing another layer of control over the failed last one won't solve your problems. That can only serve to give minority opinion more weight. Your search for the perfectly balanced committee will never be realized because balance is a matter of perspective. Everyone will try to pull the balance to where they think the middle lies, until someone succeeds. At that point, the committee will stop working for anyone else and the system will need yet another layer. I don't envy your quest for a stable hierarchical system because nobody in the history of the world has ever found one. With today's technology, we finally have an alternative and proof of concept, right here at Misplaced Pages, that objectivist philosophy works. Now that we've outgrown the simple engine that got us started, we can try to go back to the old ways or we can move ahead. I'm going to move ahead, and I hope you'll join me. --Team Shocker03:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I really don't see how Misplaced Pages is fundamentally objectivist. I'd say it's much more communist, or at least communalist, and that it really stands in opposition to some core tenets of objectivism. I guess you could argue NPOV policy has an objectivist nature, but beyond that I don't see the underpinnings of Misplaced Pages as in any way consistant with objectivist philosophy.-Polotet03:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
You see "anyone can edit" as communalist or Communist? Both of those societies rely on the standardized altruism of their participants. Anyone who deviates from that standard must be excluded in order for the system to work. As long as Misplaced Pages is a resource that "anyone can edit," it promotes the concept of man as a heroic being. Individual vandals don't get very far here because they are trying to punish others, and Misplaced Pages is not conducive to punishment. Those who relentlessly pursue their perception of productive achievement, however, are unstoppable in this environment, even by Jimbo Wales: . --Team Shocker15:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Why do people make quality edits except out of an altruistic desire to increase the quality of a 💕? I don't know about you, but I'm not getting paid for my edits, and no matter how famous and well known Misplaced Pages to become I know I'll never attain fame for it. I don't know about everyone else, but my editing is driven by altruism, and I can't see any other good reason to edit. People who deviate from an altruistic standard are punished--that's what vandals do. And I'm not sure what your point is about Zephram Stark--he's just an individual vandal who is persistent enough to keep on coming back.-Polotet20:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
People make edits out of altruism or as punishment depending on which they think will be more effective. Altruism is useful and effective in an enabling environment. Punishment, on the other hand, is an attempt to limit creative reasoning. Even if it were effective, the results would not be useful. The Wiki engine succeeds in making this great resource to the extent that it enables altruism, but it fails where it enables systems of punishment, exclusion and limits to creative reasoning. On my talk page, I have started an outline for a new engine designed to address the larger concerns of users like Lou by promoting altruism without the systems of punishment that are holding his article hostage. --Team Shocker22:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Dude, can you get your head out of the clouds for a second? This article uses the word "cocksucker" and has a picture of a dick. The article is run by an organized group of homos who don't give a damn that you are "moving ahead". They don't care what Misplaced Pages's policy about obscenity is, and they don't care that unsuspecting children are reading the word "cocksucker". They have consensus and they'll do what they damn well please.
Their objective is to make the article unbalanced and pro-gay. "Anyone can edit" doesn't apply here. They take turns reverting any changes that aren't pro-gay, assuring that their propaganda cannot be removed and anybody who dares to express an opposing thought is booted for 3rr.
Lou, when you say that the model isn't working, you have to remember that the model brought us this far. Our current engine is Randian with dictatorial stopgaps to overcome its simplicity. Given that we have outgrown it, do we pursue a more robust engine or do we give up and become a dictatorship? There are arguments for both. Encyclopedia Britannica is closer to the dictatorial model. It is a wonderful resource, but I think we have something much better, especially given that we have surpassed Britannica in many ways in only a few short years. Asking people on top to micromanage your concerns by petitioning Jimbo to take direct action or form a committee puts us in the dictatorial category, where the most we can aspire is to be like Britannica. Taking the responsibility for our own productive achievement, however, will enable this project to be so much more.
I understand that you want direct action for your specific problem and not a general fix for the underlying issue, but fixing the underlying issue is all that anyone cares about on this discussion page. Have you tried an RfC?--Team Shocker15:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
How do you want people to create policy? There's either discussion and building consensus on the talk page, or bold editing of the page until a version everyone agrees on is arrived at. -- SCZenz17:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
It sounds as though you already had an answer in mind when you asked the question. If you're just looking for someone to validate your predetermined conclusion, we'd better take a close look at its assumptions. WP:POL refers to WP:HCP on the matter of creating policy by consensus. WP:HCP is a guideline, not a policy. A guideline illustrates standards of conduct that many editors agree with in principle. Although it may be advisable to follow it, it is not policy.
A question follows, "Why create a guideline if we can't enforce it?" A guideline is information that experienced editors give to help others become most effective at Misplaced Pages. It is a gift of knowledge, not a rod for obedience. Many of our current policies would better fit into the "gift" category as well. For instance, Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks says, "Comment on content, not on the contributor." This is some very good advice for new users and seasoned editors alike. --Team Shocker19:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Questioning things requires doubt. A rational person cannot doubt. Therefore, the objectivist response is to ignore policy. Using personal attacks is merely another form of currency; brought about by Virtues of man. Yesterdog05:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears that there is some currency after all. However, I don't think objectivist response is as simple as ignoring policy because I believe that a rational person can choose not to doubt all things. People follow policy to which they consent. That consent can be based on agreement with the policy or simply a belief that a less than optimal policy is better than no policy. Within a government system, rational consent might be given for the entire system of policies even if one of the rules is considered incorrect or even damaging.
In the case of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, consent is hard to give and the policy rarely followed because the threshold is so poorly defined. If we are never to talk about anything but content, wouldn't the basis of this discussion be considered a personal attack? Wouldn't my asking the previous question be considered another personal attack? In fact, wouldn't anyone pointing out that someone else had engaged in a personal attack itself be a personal attack? --Team Shocker15:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Sexually explicit remarks towards me on Dutch Misplaced Pages
Dear mister Wales,
Very recently two users used very sexually explicit remarks towards me concerning my transsexual past. Also two users are explicitly mobbing me and want me to leave the project completely. Only the first accusation was answered with a two-hour block, the following three were not followed by a block at all - not even by a warning.
I wonder where this stops: death threats, rape threats?
Sunday 21st of May there'll be a Dutch Misplaced Pages meeting, and I promised to be there. I wonder if I'll be safe there, or just if I'll be treated with respect and honour.
Could you please take any action in these matters, as Dutch moderators seem to lack the initiative to do so? Verrekijker20:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Jimbo doesn't know Dutch, you realize. How is he supposed to read all the discussion that doubtless occurred, especially since you didn't give links? Furthermore, he's exceptionally busy. Stewards who can understand Dutch include m:User:Oscar and m:User:Walter; while I'm pretty sure they can't unilaterally interfere with the local operations of a Misplaced Pages, they would at least be able to bring the matter up with Jimbo as known reliable sources if they felt there was a real problem. (They are, as it happens, also bureaucrats and admins on the Dutch Misplaced Pages.) —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:09, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Grammy's law: If a user posts on User talk:Jimbo Wales about a dispute, that is a strong indication that the user in question is a) inexperienced or b) wrong.'65.74.249.9022:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Wiki used as a source for SVT...
I don't know if you collect material of all significant press articles that mention Wiki, or other kind of press material, but the Swedish Public Service television wrote an article published on the net and on teletext tv, that used Misplaced Pages as a source. The article talks about one of the last surviver from the Titanic. The article ends with the paragraph:
Enligt nätencyklopedin Misplaced Pages finns två kända överlevande från Titanic kvar i livet. De är 94 och 95 år gamla och bor i England.
Translated: According to internet encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages, there are two known survivors from Titanic still alive. They are 94 and 95 years old and live in England.
I think this is cool, because a Public Service TV used Wiki as a source; that same tv usually use credible newspapers and Reuters as a source for their news. Thought I would let you know... --Candide, or Optimism04:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Señor Jimbo Wales, kailangan po ng Philippine Wikipedian Community ng Inyong Tulong.
Mr. Jimmy Wales,
I am writing from the Pearl of The Orient Seas, speaking in behalf of our fledgling community here which is facing difficulties and is having a hard time making world-class ,wiki-class and excellent articles and giving up to the minute and accurate information due to our resource limitations. These are the difficulties we are facing and we are asking for advice and assistance regarding the following:
1. We have a very small community which in its own numbers, is very insufficient in covering the Philippines. Our community is very small, in fact that we are hardly making progress in Philipine-related topics. Add to it the fact that most of us are still studying and working and a very significant portion of our community are minors.
2. People do not have enough information about Misplaced Pages, or are suspicious since many sites in the Net offer false promises. They either never heard of us, do come here and do not know that anybody can edit it or they do not belive that Misplaced Pages does not charge fees.
3. Encyclopedias in Philippine languages are not heard of. If ever we tell them (as per my own experience) they are either skeptical or suspicious, since it is very revolutionary that there is an encylopedia in Philippine languages, since we are used to the fact that most encyclopedias are English.
4. An encyclopedia on the internet is very very revolutionary and new to the people that they don't know that it exists.
5. We are so low-profile that even the government is suspicious if we are non profit or for profit. As per the experience of my friend and comrade in fingers, Akira, he is having some delays in his project to improve the coverage about the Manila Light Rail Transit System. He has written letters to the Transport Authority and they told him to wait for one week, it has already been 2 weeks since he sent the letter.
6. Our community are living in very different places and it is hard to travel and meet up, partly due to the fact that many of us are busy or are minors.
Therefore at your permission, I give you the difficulties and limitations of our community. I leave the propositions and the solution to the rest of the Filipino Wikipedian Community. I am but one of them, and I personally feel that they must have their opinion heard.
I know you'e taken a particular interest in flagrant copyright violators, so let me point you to a particular discussion on the admin board. Note particularly his rationale when busted, ...why are you doing this? You know that Misplaced Pages isn't liable for copyright violations that it isn't aware are occurring? There's absolutely no reason to be doing this! --Calton | Talk00:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Plans for releasing Misplaced Pages 1.0
The Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has been very busy and is about to start accepting nominations for Misplaced Pages:Version 0.5, a test of a CD/DVD/paper release. We would like to release this test version in autumn 2006. We will also soon be accepting Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Nominations in preparation for release of a full Misplaced Pages 1.0 release, soon after 0.5 if the test is successful. The nomination/approval process will mirror WP:GAN for V0.5, and WP:FAC for V1.0. We elected to start with a core of important, good-quality articles and build from there, rather than following the German model. This will allow us to scrutinise each article and check for copyright infringements, bad language, etc. The following activities are providing support for the project:
We have had successful tests of a bot which automagically prepares tables of articles by quality such as this chemistry list and the corresponding log of changes, both updated daily. We will be contacting all WikiProjects during the spring with the aim of encouraging groups to use this system. We hope the projects will at least provide us with lists of key articles in their subject area. The projects can then easily feed into V0.5 and V1.0 via the nomination process.
Please could you give your views on this strategy on the main WP:1.0 discussion page? Would you be willing to support these projects as official CD/DVD/paper releases of Misplaced Pages, assuming certain criteria (no copyright problems, etc) are met? Thanks, Walkerma01:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
