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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by IZAK (talk | contribs) at 08:45, 10 May 2006 (Rabbi Shach's fame and Chabad). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Name

He is often referred to as Elazar. Which one is correct? JFW | T@lk 17:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Eliezer got significantly more hits on Google (particularly among the English israeli press), so I used that as the standard. ShalomShlomo 23:54, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Elazar is the (only) correct version. Way to prove it: you must know the newspaper he himself founded, Yated Ne'eman. The paper has an (unofficial) online version as well - it contains about half the articles from the regular (weekly English Israeli) paper. I repeat, *he* himself founded this newspaper. A few links:

http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5762/chayesara/ - from around his death " Maran HaGaon Hagodol HaRav Elozor Menachem Mann Shach, ztvk"l," Aside from that, just look at: http://www.google.com/search?q=Elazar+Shach+site%3Achareidi.shemayisrael.com&hl=en&lr= and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Elozor+Shach+site%3Achareidi.shemayisrael.com . (It's spelled as Elazar or Elozor depending on the writer.) Okay... Now, next, I also looked for "Eliezer Shach" ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Eliezer+Shach+site%3Achareidi.shemayisrael.com ) and it gives quite a few results as well. Now *I* am confused as well. Still, I have recently read that (quote from memory): "His real name was Elazar. It is unknown from where the name Eliezer came, but his name was Elazar." I'm 100% sure it's Elazar, so you should change it. PS. The English-Israeli press (Haaretz etc.) are not exactly a good resource for these things, with all due respect to them (I read Haaretz myself). --Daniel575 19:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Daniel575- I used Eliezer because the majority of (English) resources I came across in print and the net used it. If you're convinced the other spelling is accurate, feel free to change it. I'm happy to use whatever spelling as long as we have some consistency between articles. ShalomShlomo 17:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

ShalomShlomo, if you're going to work on this article more, you will do better by quoting the Hareidi press with which Rav Schach affiliated, rather than Ha'aretz. My initial search on Google of "Menachem Man Shach hesped" turned up Dei'ah VeDibur (the English Yated Neeman here in Israel, which he also founded) and Aish.com, which are much more reliable interpreters of Rav Schach's activities than the secular, leftist Ha'aretz newspaper. As a subscriber to the English Yated, I can tell you that they are printing articles about Rav Schach nearly every week since his passing! Yoninah 19:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Yoninah, thanks for the sources. I knew Schach had a newspaper but was unaware it had an English translation. The page as it presently stands is hardly meant to be definitive; I created it because no one else had, and remembered seeing various Schach articles in Haaretz following his death. While I take your point that the haredi press are likely to certainly have more information regarding Schach's personality and teachings vis-a-vis the Torah world, outside perspectives can also be helpful, particularly relating to, for instance, analysis of Schach's political activities and astuteness, or his perception/legacy among non-haredi Israelis. The optimal solution, I think, would be to incorporate elements from both "types" of sources. The fact that I have yet to do so here is much more a function of a lack of time than it is any bias against the haredi press. I will certainly keep your comments in mind when working on this page in future. Of course, if anyone would care to help fill the various sections out a bit, that would be extremely helpful and appreciated, too. ShalomShlomo 00:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Schach a Misnaged?

Isn't true that Rabenu Shach was mitnagued!!!!! He just don't acept -like other jewish, even hasidic ones- what Chabad was/is doing! Bresolver 17:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Many of the resources I've come across on Schach either said he was misnaged, or at least mentioned that he was not hasidic. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Did he have a rebbe, for instance? Do his followers identify as Hasidism or Misnagdim? His rabbinical career seems to show strong affiliation with whatI understand are largely misnagdic yeshiva instutions, and I believe many of his influences were/are notable misnagdim. ShalomShlomo 20:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

ShalomShlomo: Being "not Hasidic" does not automatically make a person into a "misnaged"! In Eastern Europe, and in most non-Hasidic yeshivas today, the bulk of students often came from Hasidic homes. It's not as clear-cut as you imagine. For example, even in Rav Schach's case, you are obviously not aware that he studied and taught at Karlin (see article) when he was younger, and retained a fond connection with that group. And you should note that "misnagdim" basically do NOT self-identify as such. Usually it is used more in jest. Actually, the word "misnaged" has become something of a mild "slur" as it's used by certain (Hasidic) individuals who dislike people who object to those who oppose the extremes of Hasidism. IZAK 02:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

IZAK: Actually, if you check the history of the article, you'll see I started it and was the one who included the Karlin bit. Thanks for the refresher, though. Interesting tidbits aside, is there actually information suggesting Schach wasn't Misnagdic? Because, as I said, a lot of the material I've read about him (online and off) claimed he was, and separated him from the Hasidic rebbes in Israel, for instance. I was also under the impression that Schach's non-affiliation with Hasidism was one of the reason he formed Degel HaTorah. If he wasn't, then someone should write a section addressing this, as I did in the page about Rav Kook. Perhaps you should also write a paragraph or so about this in the various articles pertaining to Misnagdim, such as Mitnagdim and Hasidim and Mitnagdim. It could be very helpful and informative for Misplaced Pages users. ShalomShlomo 06:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

ShalomShlomo: Rabbi Shach's issues with Hasidic leaders in Israel was based almost exclusively on matters pertaining to Israeli politics, and had absolutely nothing to do with meaningful religious differences and certainly was not motivated by anti-Hasidism. Do not confuse Rabbi Shach as a Haredi leader living at the end of the twentieth century with the positions of the Vilna Gaon who lived two hundred years earlier in the eighteenth century in an age still reeling from the after-effects of the false messiahship of Sabbatai Zevi (1626-1676)! The only exception is Rabbi Shach's vehement opposition to the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902-1994) (because of fears that like Shabbati Zevi, Rabbi Schneerson would turn out to be a "false Messiah," a position some would say was prescient), and a position shared by other Hasidic leaders as well (Satmar's opposition to Lubavitch is well known, and most Hasidic groups have a disdain for Lubavitch -- and in turn Lubavitch scorns anyone who opposes them.) In fact when Rabbi Shach established the Degel HaTorah political party his ally was the present Belzer Rebbe, Rabbi Yissachar Dov Rokeach (b. 1948) and the two joined forces asking their followers to vote for the new party. Subsequently, Rabbi Shach was invited as the most honored guest to the Bar Mitzvah of the Belzer Rebbe's only son and heir in front of a huge public celebration. So this disproves that Rabbi Shach was anti-Hasidim (which is what mitnagdim means) even at a time when he was forming a new political party without most of his former Hasidic allies of Agudat Israel. From the form of your question: "... is there actually information suggesting Schach wasn't Misnagdic? Because, as I said, a lot of the material I've read about him (online and off) claimed he was... " it shows that you are coming at this subject the wrong way. Rabbi Shach did not self-identify as a "mitnaged". Nobody does! It's almost a silly anachronism by now (see what I have written below to explain this further.) As for Rabbi Shach's relationships with the Hasidic rebbes of Israel who were his contemporaries, in Rabbi Shach's old age (and he was active as a Haredi leader until he was over one hundred years old!), he decided that none of the Hasidic rebbes were his equals in Torah scholarship and he gave up on trying to convince them of his POLITICAL DECISIONS by simply MOVING ON. He first did this when he created the Shas party and later when he created the Degel HaTorah party. One must realize that Rabbi Shach was both a tremendous Torah scholar which he proved through his widely studied written works known as the Avi Ezri as well as being regarded as the pre-eminent rosh yeshiva in the Haredi world, and he simply "did not suffer fools gladly", as the expression goes. He was extremely conscious of his role as a Torah leader and spokesman and he was a highly astute and effective politician (creating two parties in the Israeli Knesset that still function is quite a feat!), but he was not opposed to the teachings or the workings of Hasidic Judaism as such (unlike the Vilna Gaon who was opposed to Hasidism -- "lock-stock-and-barrel"). None of Rabbi Shach's writings or declarations are anti-Hasidic (of course, the modern Lubavitch movemnent under Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the exception, because in Rabbi Shach's view it was a breeding ground for false-Messianism and had the potential to mislead masses of Jews and thus needed to be forcefully and openly opposed head-on -- but not because it was related to Hasidism as such.) Therefore, judging from his written works, Rabbi Shach was a supreme Talmudist but he did not write polemics against Hasidism. In his political actions, even when he formed the Degel HaTorah party he then encouraged it to join with the Hasidic dominated Agudat Israel as the combined United Torah Judaism list. Except for Lubavitch, he had cordial relations with Hasidic groups and Rebbes. Perhaps, the only ones who have a vested interest in labelling him a "mitnaged" are the Lubavitchers, but they have an obvious axe to grind against him, and as a group with a vested interest (that their Rebbe should be the "Moshiach"), it's clear why they would want to call Rabbi Shach a "mitnaged". In fact if you will look at the sites on the Internet that perpetuate the word "mitnagdim" you will see that it's basically ONLY Lubavitch that still keeps up the old propagandistic and long-discarded labels of "mitnaged" or "mitnagdim". So you should not be trapped or fooled by what is by now worn-out terminology that is not used and has been dumped by most normal people. IZAK 06:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Use of the the word "mitnagdim"

I am repositing here what I have just posted at User talk:ShalomShlomo#Use of the the word "mitnagdim". Thanks. IZAK 05:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi ShalomShlomo: Perhaps you are not aware that the word mitnagdim in a modern-day context is very out-dated and may even be regarded as a mild slur by the people you think are "mitnagdim". The original mitnagdim were so called because they followed the Vilna Gaon (1720-1797) who opposed the early Hasidim (who viewed the early Hasidim as another dangerous manifestation of Sabbatai Zevi's influence), particularly Lubavitch and Breslov. The first so-called "mitnagdim" (i.e the Vilna Gaon's disciples) did not choose this name for themslves, rather, it was their Hasidic opponents, who themselves were "mitnagdim" (the word simply means "opponents" in Hebrew), who pinned the label "mitnagdim" on those who did not wish to adopt the new ways of Hasidism -- at the same time that the followers of the Baal Shem Tov (1698-1760) chose to self-righteously call call themselves "Hasidim" (which means "righteous ones" in Hebrew) -- an act of great chutzpah. Without dwelling on past history, by now the fact is clear that there is no such thing as the "mitnagdim" like those who lived in the times of the Vilna Gaon! Hasidism has been well-established because its commitment to Halakha is beyond question and it is not opposed by anyone in the Torah world. Those Haredim who do not follow the Hasidic ways are today known as "Litvaks" or the "Yeshiva world" -- or "Lithuanian yeshiva world" -- but not as "mitnagdim" because, while they seek to maintain their own traditions of the original Ashkenaz that existed for a very long time BEFORE the advent of the Hasidic movement -- they are not presently enaged in an sort of kulturkampf. As proof of the positive and constructive relations between all Haredi Jews (Hasidim and non-Hasidim together) one can look at Agudath Israel of America in the USA which serves as an umbrella organization for Hasidic Rebbes and non-Hasidic Litvish yeshiva deans and their commmunities. And in Israel, the ongoing alliances of Agudat Israel and Degel HaTorah under United Torah Judaism serve the common needs and agendas of all Haredi parties. Bottom line, it is very rare indeed to find groups who self-identify as "mitnagdim" so you should therefore not use that description in articles when you want to talk about or describe Ashkenazi Haredi groups that are not Hasidic. To say "non-Hasidic" is ok, or perhaps "Lithuanian yeshiva communities/rabbis" (sometimes also referred to as "Yeshivish" -- but not always in a serious sense.) Any discussion or mention of "mitnagdim" should therefore be restricted to articles or personalities dealing with the struggles during the times of the Vilna Gaon and the Baal Shem Tov and one or two generations following them. Basically, the major disputes between followers of Hasidism and those who opposed them ended by the end of the nineteenth century. With the dawn of the twentieth century all the European Haredi groups and factions united, most notably as proven by the establishment of the World Agudath Israel in Europe in 1912. Many non-Hasidim have become serious Hasidim over time, and the majority of students and faculty in non-Hasidic yeshivas have strong Hasidic ancestry. The lines run in all directions in the Haredi world, so it is incorrect to use old labels such as "mitnagdim" in a frivolous manner that does not apply today. IZAK 05:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Quote

The quote aganist Rabbi Schneerson wasn't even said by him. Looking at the sources would back up my claim. ems 18:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Rabbi Shach's fame and Chabad

Why have some editors here so convinced themselves that Rabbi Shach's fame hinged on his relationship with Chabad when nothing could be further from the truth. Rabbi Shach, through his written work the widely studied Avi Ezri in the yeshivah world, his leadership as Rosh Yeshiva of Ponevezh, and his political acumen and effectivenes in all areas of Israel's politics (in which Chabad is but a small part), all bespoke his fame nad greatness. There is no need to defame him in the manner that many Lubavitchers tend to do. IZAK 08:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)