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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cyde (talk | contribs) at 18:36, 10 May 2006 (→May 3, 2006: Sockpuppet stuff is done with). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Userboxes are sometimes deleted by administrators if there are thought to be valid reasons for their removal from Misplaced Pages. However, some userboxes may be inappropriately deleted. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Userbox debates considers appeals to restore userboxes that have been deleted. It also considers disputed decisions made in deletion-related fora. Before using the Review, please read Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy and Misplaced Pages:Undeletion policy.

Category:User undeletion lists a number of administrators who are prepared to honour good faith requests for the restoration of deleted content to your user space, for example if you want to work up a more encyclopaedic article. This does not require deletion review, you can ask one of them directly (or post a request at the administrators' noticeboard).

Purpose

  1. Userbox debates Deletion Review is the process to be used by all editors, including administrators, who wish to challenge the outcome of any deletion debate or a speedy deletion unless:
    • They are able to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question (this should be attempted first - courteously invite the deleting admin to take a second look);
    • In the most exceptional cases, posting a message to WP:AN/I may be more appropriate instead. Rapid correctional action can then be taken if the ensuing discussion makes clear it should be.
    • An administrator (or other editor) is correcting a mistake of their own, or has agreed to amend their decision after the kind of discussion mentioned above.
  2. Deletion Review is also to be used if significant new information has come to light since a deletion and the information in the deleted article would be useful to write a new article.
This process should not be used simply because you disagree with a deletion debate's reasoning — but instead if you think the debate was interpreted incorrectly by the closer or have some information pertaining to the debate that did not receive an airing during the AfD debate (perhaps because the information was not available at that time). This page is about process, not about content, although in some cases it may involve reviewing content.

This process is about userboxes, not about people. If you feel that an administrator is routinely deleting userboxes prematurely, or otherwise abusing their powers, please discuss the matter on the user's talk page, or at Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators.

If you nominate a page here, be sure to make a note on the administrator's user talk page regarding your nomination. A template is available to make this easier:

{{subst:DRVU note|section heading}} ~~~~

Similarly, if you are a administrator and a page you deleted is subsequently undeleted, please don't take it as an attack.

Please take general discussion to the talk page.

May 10, 2006

Template:User Darwinist

File:Darwinist-symbol.png
This user is a Darwinist.

the citation of CSD T1 appears specious and not very logical. How is a userbox that allows a user to identify with the scientific theories of Charles Darwin considered inflammatory? Netscott 16:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


  • Keep deleted - And who refers to themselves as a "Darwinist" anyway? The only time I've heard someone using that word is when creationists are being incredibly ignorant and railing against the perceived Darwinist conspiracy. If you want to proclaim that you understand science, you don't need to use a silly userbox to do it. Just do what I do. Here's a direct quote from my userpage: "I'm mostly interested in anything having to do with science, including but not limited to, evolution, encryption, astronomy, science fiction, SETI, and computer programming. I'm also interested in politics, mostly because of the negative influence on science it's been having lately. I am an unabashed naturalist." --Cyde Weys 16:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • keep deleted Evolution and Creationism is a very inflammatory issue (if you don't believe that, look on the talk pages of related articles and some of the comments from people on both sides). That's clearly what this template is about not about happening to agree with some general scientific theory. And I'll try to refrain from making puns off the word "specious" JoshuaZ 16:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Origin of Specious? LOL! Nice comment! Netscott 16:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
This user believes in intelligent design or creationism.


Netscott 16:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Correct, in fact someone who has more time on their hands (I need to do real work right now) should go throuhg and substitute and delete it. JoshuaZ 16:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't take lots of time, it just takes a bot. Unfortunately, my Userboxbot proposal was shot down, so I can't substitute it before deleting it (which I have done). --Cyde Weys 16:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah you can, just do it by hand. Kotepho 16:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Nah. --Cyde Weys 16:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Fine, I'll do it. There is only ~90 instances. Kotepho 16:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
You have more patience than I do, that's for sure. --Cyde Weys 16:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm never doing that by hand again. {{user progressive creationism}} {{user theistic evolution}} {{user theistic evolution2}} {{user evolution2}} and {{user evol-0}} through {{user evol-4}} and {{user evol-N}} if someone fancies deleting more. Kotepho 18:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Haha, I don't blame you! See, by bot would be much better. I'm taking care of these others too. --Cyde Weys 18:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • kd and isn't the fish supposed to be facing the other way and with two feet instead of... i'm not sure what those things on the bottom are, tentacles? Kotepho 16:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleting all bumperstickers - and we should take out the creationist ones at the same time. --Doc 17:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted as per JoshuaZ's and Cyde's reasoning, above. It's clearly an inflammatory issue. And keep deleting opposing views, as Doc suggests. Nhprman 17:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete Darwinism is a proven scientific theory. There is nothing divisive about science. This template is perfectly NPOV.  Grue  17:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Waaait a minute, if "science" isn't divisive, what's all this Creation-evolution controversy stuff about? Homestarmy 17:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Um, Grue, Darwinism actually has some pretty significant flaws in it, particularly seeing as how it was proposed before the physical mechanism of inheritance (DNA) was even discovered. Darwinism does not refer to the current modern synthesis of evolution. Also, scientific theories are never proven, only disproven. --Cyde Weys 18:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

May 9, 2006

Template:User Communist

Last deleted version (?):

This user is a Communist.

Version as of last TfD:

This user is a Communist.

I'd suggest that some of these people care about the encyclopedia as well, and that if you're interested in writing an encyclopedia, you should consider whether the loss of their contributions is worth it. For example, Tony, specifically related to you is User:Crotalus horridus. Was whatever policy victory you achieved worth his departure? I'm not saying it necessarily wasn't, I'm asking you to think about it. TheJabberwʘck 18:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Whether it's Communism or some other -ism is irrelevent. Announcing our political viewpoints and getting to know other people who share those views are not the purposes of Misplaced Pages, and politics has no place here. Nhprman 00:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Honestly, I would rather that both this template and its counterpart be kept, but I think it's reasonable to interpret T1 as prohibiting attack or anti-boxes, and allowing support boxes, so that's how I'm voting. TheJabberwʘck 18:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree. Deleting all political boxes at once is a good suggestion. But I suspect that won't happen, because the idea of generating consensus through these discussions will create precedent for, and give momentum to, the deletion of future boxes when they are deleted. I'm being assured that this process is ramping up and the pace of deletions is quickening. Nhprman 17:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:User No Marxism

  • Deleted under T1 some weeks ago by me. User:Mike Rosoft has without consultation undeleted it.
  • Keep deleted, valid T1, clearly divisive and inflammatory. --Tony Sidaway 19:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted This does not help build an encyclopedia --Doc 00:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. T1 for the obvious-impaired. Mackensen (talk) 00:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, correct application of T1. -GTBacchus 00:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, ditto everyone else. Mike Rosoft should not be undeleting clearly T1 templates. --Cyde Weys 00:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Clearly falls under WP:CSD#T1. AmiDaniel (talk) 00:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per GTBacchus. TheJabberwʘck 00:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Changed to Speedy keep as I understand the current situation: it already survived a deletion review, and nothing has changed since then. I wish there was more transparency here so I could vote accurately the first time... TheJabberwʘck 03:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, etc., etc. Correct application of T1. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Userfy I'd say I hate being the odd man out, except...I don't :/. Now, since its in template space I suppose it's, well, not really Wiki template type material, but I don't see the harm in it being in user space, I mean, alot of people probably don't like Marxism, and it doesn't seem to be that mean a template...... Homestarmy 00:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep and early close this review, per Kotepho's's comments. Noted the prior actions on the template talk. — xaosflux 01:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    The notes on the talk page give no grounds for keeping, much less "speedy keep", which would traditionally require a bad faith nomination (not the case here) or a withdrawal (which I decline to do). This unequivocally divisive and inflammatory template will remain deleted. --Tony Sidaway 01:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Keep restored, list on TfD obviously there is debate among admins on this one, get consensus and do away with it, the project won't hurt by having this out there for a week. — xaosflux 00:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC) Changed to Speedy Keep above.
    Ten or so against one isn't a debate, especially when the one was wheel-warring. Mackensen (talk) 01:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I think this establishes that no abuse of administrator powers was involved in deleting the template. Would anybody like to redelete and close this? --Tony Sidaway 01:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    If im reading the timestamps right, this vote is only like a little more than an hour old and most of the votes seemed to rush in during the first 30 minutes or something, I think a little more time would be nice :/. Homestarmy 01:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Why? We've already got a very strong administrator consensus in favor of my speedy deletion. --Tony Sidaway 01:40, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment You should at least mention that it was sent to TFD after a DRVU that resulted in keep. Last I checked the multiple deletions of this template would fall under wheel warring too. Kotepho 01:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Let's ask Mike Rosoft, who has restored this template a remarkable three times. Much of this occurred before T1 was accepted as policy (as it now is). Since then, Tony Sidaway deleted it, quite properly, and Mike Rosoft restored it, two weeks later, without discussion. That is wheel-warring. Mackensen (talk)
    It takes n+1 to wheel war. Kotepho 01:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Yes, but that's not a reflection on n. Mackensen (talk) 01:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    If it is done without discussion it sure is. Kotepho 01:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Recreate In light of Kotepho's comments. Normally I would want to userfy, but speedy deletion after a TfD said keep is Out of Order. I hope some of the above votes reconsider in light of this. -- Dragoonmac - o I'll solve it 01:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Many inflammatory and divisive templates are speedied correctly after being kept at TfD. The campaigns to keep such templates are precisely the reason why we have a criterion for their speedy deletion. --Tony Sidaway 01:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    I don't strongly disagree with that, excepting that this was already brought to DRV after being speedied last time, and it was decided then that it should be decided in TfD. That was less then a month ago. Continuously cycling this through the system is taking away valuable time from everyone involved. — xaosflux 01:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Quite. So why was it undeleted two weeks after the fact? It clearly wasn't missed. Mackensen (talk) 01:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Are you refering to these logs below? The TFD ended on 7 March 2006, and it was restored the next day after a consensus was determined by User:Mailer diablo. — xaosflux 01:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    1. 2006-05-08 21:56:08 Mike Rosoft restored "Template:User No Marxism" (5 revisions restored: Userbox repeatedly survived a deletion vote, and was previously undeleted)
    2. 2006-05-08 21:54:26 Mike Rosoft deleted "Template:User No Marxism" (Restoring, userbox repeatedly survived a deletion vote, content was: '<noinclude>{{deletedpage}}</noinclude>' (and the only contributor was 'Tony Sidaway'))
    3. 2006-04-25 15:51:46 Tony Sidaway deleted "Template:User No Marxism" (CSD T1)
    Are you suggesting that because noone wheel wared this template while it was in debate means it wasn't missed? — xaosflux 01:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    I would agree that it wasn't missed, simply because I had absolutely no feedback about this routine speedy deletion from anyone for two weeks. What seems to have happened then is that the original creator noticed and complained about the deletion--not to me, but to another administrator who is known for his repeated undeletions of templates validly deleted by administrators under CSD T1. --Tony Sidaway 17:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted Blatantly T1. JoshuaZ 01:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted Divisive and inflammatory? Sure, I can see how one could think that. Kotepho 01:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Salt the earth. Blatantly T1, and an abuse of the template: namespace and userspace privileges. This should never have been undeleted. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 02:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Divisive and inflammatory, but then again, all political boxes (even the "pro" boxes) are divisive and have no place here. Nhprman 02:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment by the creator of the template As already noted consensus has been twice for retaining this template (Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_27#Template:User_No_Marxism). * Also, I think it's biased to remove the only anti-communist userbox in a situation when we have tens of different communist ones and all in all, hundreds of political templates. That's a thesis which I've already presented months ago, and the situation has not changed, on the contrary, new communist ones have arisen.
    My opinion is that every more or less 'mainstream' ideology might have its userbox. We needn't have tens of communist userboxes, but one or two, and naturally we ought to have an anti-communist one as well. 'Divisive' etc thing is ridiculous -- all the political userboxes might be regarded as 'divise'; so far, mr Sidaway&co has not started a complete userbox deletion campaign (leaving a doubt if userboxes except for the anti-marxist one seem too hard to swallow?!).--Constanz - Talk 05:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Your apology is politely requested:
    • 15:51, 25 April 2006 Tony Sidaway deleted "Template:User Communist" (CSD T1)
    • 15:51, 25 April 2006 Tony Sidaway deleted "Template:User No Marxism" (CSD T1)
  • Thank you. --Tony Sidaway 06:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Had you read my notes through, you would have noted that I supported having both some communist userboxes (actually, i do not care much, how many we have, let'm be) and also the anti-communist box. After your two deletions noted above, the situation is following: not a single userbox opposed to socialist-communist-marxist etc thinking, although non-communism is clearly majority POV worldwide. So, we now have have anti-communism prohibited and following ideologies permitted:
    Template:User progressive Template:user Socialist Template:user Socialist2 User:Bill_Du/Socialist4 User:Bill_Du/Socialist3 Template:user Democratic Socialist Template:user libertarian socialist Template:user libertarian socialist2 Template:user Christian communist Template:user marxist Template:user Trot --Constanz - Talk 06:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Exactly. It seems a very well organized clique on the Left is dominating by quickly responding to any attempt to delete, and are VERY aggressive against boxes they oppose. The answer is delete ALL political Userbox Templates but allow them as text on Userpages. That takes them out of template space and out of the realm of community debate here and elsewhere. Nhprman 20:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Well, if left was able to save their boxes due to good organisation, then the fact reveals that speedy deletion on basis of T1 has not been exercised concerning 'red' userboxes. Also, all the templates could be deleted if the list would be composed and consensus reached. However, I think no admin dares to do so, for then he might face the whole community. Thus, a weird form of 'divide et impera' has been used.
    That's a good exposition of what's going on. Nhprman 14:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
are VERY aggressive against boxes they oppose -- well, the aggressiveness here towards the only anti-communist box has definitely not releaved the pressure. --Constanz - Talk 06:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • You are of course welcome to delete those userboxes also. --Tony Sidaway 06:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Consensus has been against, also, i'm not an admin and I'm against uncautious deletions.--Constanz - Talk 06:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Consensus has not been against. We have a rough consensus of MySpacers who want them kept, a rough consensus of dedicated admins who want them gone, and a full consensus of actual encyclopaedia writers who don't give a damn either way and want the issue gone. By the way, I see you note {{User progressive}} in your list of Evil Commie Boxen. Progressive? Get some perspective, dude! fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 07:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    The Myspacers are winning the debate, and as long as the Writers are complacent and don't care, the MySpacers win by default. The situation is not a good one. Nhprman 20:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Myspacers winning? How do you figure? I would have said the opposite. -GTBacchus 21:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    How can you look at the bottom of this page and say that the MySpacers are still winning? That's 11 "keep deleted"s in a row! TheJabberwʘck 21:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    So 90% of userbox templates (User:Democrat/Republican/Christian Marxist/Loves the U.N./Pro-abortion, etc.) are sacrosant and can't ever be deleted, but they are NOT winning? Going after the "anti" boxes is a great first move, but if admins are stymied in their attempt to go further, they are losing the fight against the Myspacing of WP. - Nhprman 03:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
    Whatever gave you the idea that such templates are sacrosanct and cannot be deleted? --Tony Sidaway 12:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
    I personally do not believe them to be sacrosanct and I hope they are deleted soon. But to hear the pro-box arguments currently in fashion, unless it's "negative" (i.e. "User No___ " or "User Opposes ___") they cannot be deleted because they're not divisive. My view, though, is that politically oriented Userboxes are inherently divisive, and even inflammatory, since they inspire opposing boxes and divide the WP community into camps (or "tribes" as I've called them) who seek to save their favorite boxes and debate over their wording and design. And of course, they inspire the very kinds of endless debates we're having now, which are a huge distraction - though frankly it's a NECESSARY distraction, much like when a water pipe bursts in your house. It needs attending to, and I reject those who say "leave them alone" because you don't leave a menace alone, hoping it will go away. - Nhprman 14:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, keep deleted, whatever you need to do to get rid of it. Christopher Parham (talk) 08:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, T1 is not up for discussion here. --Sam Blanning 09:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete TFD already decided that this one is not T1.  Grue  10:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Actually, this tfd: doesn't address that at all, in that most keep voters cited no rationale whatsoever, and the few that did simply stated things like "discloses editor's POV", which side-steps the issue altogether. Mackensen (talk) 14:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Indeed, the very strong support for the T1 deletion shown above also suggests that claims of a consensus that it wasn't a T1 are either out of date or incorrect. --Tony Sidaway 16:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Indeed, both of you cited no rationale whatsoever to delete this template above, so I don't know whether you think it should be deleted because of T1 or something else entirely. Remember, this is not a vote, just writing "*Keep deleted. ~~~~" is not enough.  Grue  18:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    In this case a Keep Deleted is a clear affirmation of T1. If we didn't agree that it was T1 then we couldn't very well vote to keep it deleted. You still haven't addressed the issue I raised. Mackensen (talk) 19:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Clear T1. There's no other relevant issue here. Rx StrangeLove 18:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Just userfy if you must. Misza13 21:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete, or userfy at worst. I don't think that it meets the speedy deletion criterion (which demands the userbox to be divisive AND inflammatory); and, if it were such a clear case, it wouldn't have been undeleted once and survived two deletion votes. (And, frankly, I consider it misguided to declare something no two users will agree about to be a speedy deletion criterion. After all, exactly what does it mean that a userbox is "divisive"? "Expressing an opinion somebody might disagree with"?) - Mike Rosoft 22:33, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    • So you think it's okay if a userbox is divisive but not inflammatory, or inflammatory without being divisive? Seriously? This sounds most unusual. The divisive and inflammatory nature of the userboxes in question have been established over a long period by the extremely bitter debates that the continued toleration of their presence on Misplaced Pages, an avowedly neutral encyclopedia, have occasioned. --Tony Sidaway 22:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
      • Misplaced Pages is neutral, its editors are not. We are supposed to adopt a NPOV when editing articles, not "you cant edit here unless you have no beliefs." You'll prolly accuse me of exaggeration if you respond to this, and you'll be right. I have a tendency to exaggerate, and I have a Christian bias. I try to be as Nuetral as possible, but sometimes I can't help my biases, thats why its good to be able to identify them. Let anyone who voted Speedy Delete show me an instance where this box divided people (i.e. caused an edit conflict) and do it without citing the deletion review, Self-referential arguments are no good here, deletion review is about Admins overstepping their bounds. Sorry about the rant, but unfounded claims tend to piss me off, I should make that a userbox... (Just Kidding, please dont ban me Jimbo) -- Dragoonmac - o I'll solve it 00:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
        • I might also add that all userboxes express a POV, and most are divisive (i.e. expressing that I speak German divides me from the non-German speakers.) The inflammatory part is key in speedy deletions: A userboxes saying "Non-German speakers are all idiots" is both inflammatory and divisive while "I speak German" is simply divisive. This userbox, given the previous TfD, may not be a clear-cut speedy candidate (though I personally can see how it is interpreted as inflammatory as well); however, I still feel that this userbox in any case portrays the image that Misplaced Pages is meant as a medium through which to profess one's dogmatic Marxist beliefs, which it certainly is not, thus my vote to keep it deleted. Undeleting and sending to TfD is just another unecessary link in the bureaucratic chain--what's the point in discussing whether to discuss something when we can discuss it here? (Though, as an aside, it does seem to be the "Marxist" way to do things lol.) AmiDaniel (talk) 06:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 23:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Deleted, as will all such political opinion userboxes. In the future, it might be advantageous to speedy delete opposites at the same time, so that we cannot be accused of supporting one viewpoint. --Constantine Evans 02:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted Misplaced Pages is not a pulpit. If you want webspace to express your views get a hosted account someplace. --Gmaxwell 03:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - T1 -- Tawker 05:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


April 30, 2006

Template:User infidel

inf This user is an infidel.


Cyde (talk · contribs) speedy deleted citing T1 on 2006-04-30. This template was previously restored on 2006-03-10. It is listed at Misplaced Pages:Userboxes/Religion and is currently used by approximately 78 users.

  • Speedy Restore --William Allen Simpson 14:42, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Does it divide wikipedians by belief? Yes. It is thus divisive, and t1 is valid. The fact a lot of people are acting in a manner that is officially discouraged is irrelevant. People may not like t1, but it is policy, and to restore this would be a travesty of policy. --Doc 14:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Note, and note well, that the T1 criterion says that it must be "divisive and inflammatory" (formerly "polemic and inflammatory"), not just "divisive" (else Babelboxes themselves could be speedy-deleted just as easily for "dividing Wikipedians by language"). Furthermore, "divisive" is clearly being used of its primary meaning of "Creating dissension or discord"; distorting the meaning of the world to just mean "divide wikipedians by belief" (which has absolutely nothing to do with T1 and is a non-sequitur strawman; "belief" hasn't anything to do with it) is dishonest and misleading. Regardless of whether you think we should have a speedy-deletion criterion for anything that "divides wikipedians by belief", there isn't one currently, so one needs to be proposed and approved before we can act on it without causing more futile infighting and argument. I don't see the need for such a CSD, though, even if it did exist. Saying that something is policy does not make it so, and even if this template should have been nominated at TfD and deleted there, speedy-deleting it clearly isn't applicable, anymore than it would be acceptable to speedy-delete {{user atheist}} or {{user christian}} (both of which "divide wikipedians by belief"). -Silence 15:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
We clearly interprete things differently. Fine that's why we debate here. But please do not call my views 'dishounst'. 'Infidel' is not even a neutral discription of belief - it is clearly pejorative. --Doc 15:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I apologize if my comment offended you; I meant that it was misleading and inaccurate to say that a statement like "if it divides Wikipedians by belief, it may be speedy-deleted" is listed anywhere on the WP:CSD policy page (and it is indeed misleading), not that you were deliberately deceiving people. Clearly we do disagree on interpretation of this policy; I've explained why I interpret the policy as I do, so could you explain how you have interpreted "divisive and inflammatory" to mean "anything that divides Wikipedians by belief", which is pretty clearly not the criterion's intent? Also, note that pejorative self-identification is, with few exceptions, completely acceptable; pejorative identification of others is what's completely unacceptable. The difference is obvious; self-identifying as "queer" or "gay" is 100% acceptable, despite the fact that those words can be (and have been in the past) quite pejorative. Likewise, "atheist" has extremely negative connotations for a large number of people in the world, just as much as "infidel" does, yet people who don't believe in God choose to use it as a self-identifier anyway. If it's what makes them happy (and clearly, since 78 people use this template, it does), let them define themselves and their beliefs as they wish. But above all, let's not institute religious morality into Misplaced Pages's policies by saying that it's inflammatory to not follow a religion. That's just asking for trouble. :/ -Silence 15:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
If you think I deleted this because I think it's inflammatory to not follow a religion, you clearly don't know me. You might want to take a refresher course on me at my user page. --Cyde Weys 15:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Um, where did we even mention your reasoning for deleting it? I fail to see how your userpage has any relevance here; this is a review of a user-template and the relevant process and policies that apply to it, not of the ideology or biases of the deleter. -Silence 15:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - This was deleted as T1 and, lo and behold, it is T1. --Cyde Weys 15:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Undelete I am as uninfidel as you can get, and I am not offended at all by this. --D-Day) 15:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
    • I think being "uninfidel" would make you less qualified to comment on this, not more. That's like a guy saying he's "as white as you can can get", and not offended at the N-word. --Cyde Weys 15:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
    • You missed my point. Since I am religious, I don't find the fact that someone calling themselves an infidel offensive at all. Especially with a userbox. --D-Day) 16:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, if that's how you see it, Cyde, I'm about as "infidel" as you can get (though I've never used, and never plan to use, this template, because I don't especially care whether I violate any religious codes and don't define myself in that way), and see it as an acceptable way for people to self-identify if they choose to do so. Let's not moralize as to what pejorative self-descriptions people are permitted to use; "atheist" is considered just as pejorative as "infidel" by many parts of the world, yet if people choose to describe themselves as "atheist" (or "queer", or what-have-you), there's no real harm in doing so. Pending valid justification for speedying this, undelete and list as TfD. -Silence 15:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted on the proviso that User:Cyde restore it within the user space of each person previously using the template. This was not "divisive" as the word should be defined for T1. RadioKirk talk to me 16:02, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted T1, the term is used deliberately as an in-your-face sort of approach to people who are religious. JoshuaZ 16:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment on several previous arguments:
    1. Since these are self-identified, the template cannot be said to be "pejorative", as the most that can be said would be "self-deprecating".
    2. "Behold, it is T1" is proof by assertion. Under that standard, every User box that has ever been debated would be considered divisive, as every debate is evidence of division!
    3. This T1 deletion after previous restoration is wheel warring.
    4. So far, there has been no justification given for speedying this.
    William Allen Simpson 16:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment See my above rationale for why it is T1. JoshuaZ 16:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
      • I see no rationale. I see opinion and proof by assertion. --William Allen Simpson 16:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
        • When you have to resort to attempting to dismiss something using specious reasons, you're basically admitting that you can't dismiss it using rational ones. --Cyde Weys 18:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
        • (edit conflict with Cyde) Ok, making this slightly more explicit: Premise 1) The term "infidel" started out as a term used by certain religious groups to label with strong negative connotations those of other religious backgrounds. Premise 2) Since then, the term has been adapted by certain groups as a deliberate use of a negative term, similar to the use of "queer," but with a deliberately anti-religious connotation (for evidence see Internet Infidels). Premise 3) Terms with deliberate negative connotation and/or used deliberately in the context of a belief system one disagrees with are divisive (see precedent for User box of Fascist). Conclusion: This box is divisive and hence T1. JoshuaZ 18:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Recreate in users' spaces. Not T1-worthy, but not without understandable controversy (absent further clarification from an individual user, "infidel" can mean anything from violent anti-Christian to rebellious teenager). RadioKirk talk to me 16:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • "Infidel", on its own, cannot mean "violent anti-Christian" or "rebellious teenager". Please read dictionary.com's definition of "infidel". If anything, "atheist" is more divisive and inflammatory than "infidel", because the word atheism has the secondary meaning "Godlessness; immorality."; "infidel" doesn't even have that. -Silence 17:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
With appropriate respect, I disagree. :) RadioKirk talk to me 17:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Your link doesn't support your interpretation any more than mine does, actually. Where does it say "violent anti-Christian" or "rebellious teenager"? Also, everyone knows the American Heritage Dictionary is the only true dictionary. >;D -Silence 17:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
LOL! Anyway, it may not be explicit, but the wide range of potential meanings can be extracted therefrom. Those against the U. S. occupation of Iraq, for example, often use "infidel" to mean "violent anti-Muslim"; the M-W definition "a disbeliever in something specified or understood" could include rebellious teenagers. RadioKirk talk to me 17:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Since when did atheist mean immoral? Last time I looked statistics show that atheists commit fewer crimes per capita than theists. If anything it's the theists who are immoral. --Cyde Weys 17:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
... Are you joking? You can't tell the difference between the sentence "the word atheism has the secondary meaning 'Godlessness; immorality.'" and the sentence "atheists are immoral"? That's just deliberately missing the point. Please review the dictionary.com entry on "atheism", and if you want to digress into a debate on the ethics of theistic viewpoints, feel free to do so on my talk page, where it's more relevant. -Silence 17:49, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
No I'm not joking, I was disagreeing with the secondary meaning, which seems to be nothing more than theist propaganda. By the way, one of my other comments is still missing from this page .. --Cyde Weys 17:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Disagreeing with a dictionary definition does not make it any less of a definition; dictionaries record common usage, not "what words should mean", which would be absurd. Arguing against a definition in a dictionary is like arguing against a fact in an atlas: really silly. And surely you realize that hundreds of words in the English language mean what they mean because of "theist propaganda", or to be more accurate, the near-omni-religious culture we live in. "Holiday" isn't necessarily religious in modern usage, but the language is nonetheless biased, as we're forced to use a word derived from "Holyday" to refer even to secular days. Fighting against a language is fruitless. Instead, fight against the fact, which was never in dispute or in any way related to the discussion here: obviously atheists aren't immoral, and I'd even agree with you that atheism is, at least in some ways, more ethical than theism.
And, I didn't readd your comment because I assumed, since you noticed it, you'd re-add it as soon as you wanted wherever you wanted. I chalked down the delay to you perhaps rewriting part of it, since I changed my comment in the time before the posting (since I agree with you that "This user is a nigger" would be much less acceptable, but disagree with you on the analogy: "user=n" would be more comparable to "this user is a faggot" than "this user is an infidel", and I'd assert that "this user is an infidel" is instead comparable to "this user is queer", whereas "this user is an atheist" is comparable to "this user is gay". So, do you want me to re-add the comment, or do you want to do it yourself? You weren't at all clear in your post to my Talk page. -Silence 18:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Deleted Previous Templated boxes in which the user self references him/herself as a "Fascist" were deemed divisive and inflammatory. If that precedent holds, then "infidel" - which is a well-known term within the context of religion, especially radical Islam - is definitely of the same vein, and should be deleted, even if the term is self-applied by the user. Nhprman 17:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Restore/list at TfD This is intended as a "self-descriptor" -- a user applies the term infidel to himself or herself. Given the above arguments over semantics, it is clear that the term has a range of meanings: it is unclear whether any (or all) of them are inflammatory. While I don't think the T1 was a great overstep or anything, it is clear that there is a debate on the merits necessary to distinguish (or fail to distinguish) this userbox from "This user is a 'Religion X'" subtype, generally allowable. Xoloz 18:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Restore --Jamie Battenbo 19:32, 30 April 2006 (BST<DataType>)
  • Undelete and list at TfD. It is as much divisive as the language Babel boxes. If inflammatory, then only towards it's bearers. And you can ask Cyde for his opinion about cursing/flaming on oneself. Finally, Cyde deserves a slap (not necessarily with a large trout) for not ahrering to speedy deletion rules. Let's cite the first template around. From {{d}}: Administrators, remember to check if anything links here, the page history (last edit) and any revisions of CSD before deletion. --Misza13 18:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Aren't you a member of Community Justice? Can you tell me how that squares with suggesting someone needs to be slapped? I think you need to cool it. Rx StrangeLove 23:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
    • I did check the "What links here" before deleting. --Cyde Weys 18:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
      • Very funny! So, you're basically suggesting that this is just an ambient note? A space-filler? I thought it is the deleting administrator's duty to make sure that nothing (except some backlogs perhaps) links to the page before deleting it. Apparently, I was mistaken. If so, then I'll just go and remove the notice from all speedy deletion templates as it is unnecessary and confusing. Misza13 20:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
        • Removing the template from every page it was linked to would've just pissed off a lot more people, and, in the event this thing did survive the inevitable DRVU, it'd create a lot more work. What would you have done? --Cyde Weys 20:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
          • You know well what would I do. And if you were so lazy/concerned with people being pissed off, then why didn't you just go through a TfD with it? Misza13 20:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
            • Because TFD shouldn't be used when a speedy deletion criteria is applicable, just like you shouldn't bring an article whose entire text is "Joe Howitz is gay" to AFD. --Cyde Weys 22:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
    • You don't understand, Misza13, he's like a horse. If you slap him, he'll run faster. Cyde deserves an apple. Someone has to push the envelope. We're feeling out where the line is between too divisive and ok. Keep voting on the template, not the deleter, and you're doing your job, too. -GTBacchus 18:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
      • The way to feel out the envelope is to ask the community, on TfD. That's what it's for. Septentrionalis 05:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
        I think, if we want to know just where T1 applies, we need to try to apply T1, and see what happens. We can feel it out from the other side, too, noting in TFD what makes people say "should have been a T1 speedy," but this is a perfectly appropriate forum for direct discussion of speedy criteria applicability. -GTBacchus 05:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete and TfD. I can see why people don't like it, but I can't say that I find it particularly divisive. There's nothing saying about what it's against. I find it hard to consider it divisive when there's no crowd that it divides.--Toffile 18:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Definitive T1. --Tony Sidaway 19:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete. The deletion of such widely used template is nothing short of vandalism.  Grue  19:42, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Get a life. Kelly Martin (talk) 19:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
    Off topic NPA discussion moved to talk page Ben Aveling 15:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Mackensen (talk) 19:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. --pgk 21:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Deleted Clear T1....it's a clearly divisive UB and it's deletion was well within policy. I especially don't appreciate people suggesting that other editors need to be slapped. Rx StrangeLove 23:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete, then list at TfD Brian | (Talk) 23:47, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete - not divisive by current standards, though more provocative than a mere statement of subscription to a recognised religion or philosophy (which being an "infidel" is not). We need a policy change for consistency and to keep template space from being used for frivolous purposes. Until we have it, I will not vote against templates that I consider a frivolous use of template space on the ground that they are "divisive". Metamagician3000 23:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Also, if it's true that the template has already been restored once then the community has already spoken on this. I see nothing so exceptional about this case as to warrant going through it again. Metamagician3000 00:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • STRONG Undelete The definition by itself is not devisive - see silence. Besides, in terms of joke templates we keep the assume bad faith one which is far more insidious then this. Just another star in the night 00:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: JoshuaZ was finally more specific in his premises, demonstrating a logical error at premise 2. Moreover, he is contradicted by his own Internet Infidels reference. Therefore, neither premise 3, nor his conclusion are supported.
    --William Allen Simpson 00:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Alert: Looking at the archive, Cyde was also the original nominator for Template:User queerrights (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). This pattern continues at the proposal for Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approvals#Userboxbot. Please join the discussion there, too! --William Allen Simpson 00:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete It doesn't even specify who the person is an infidel to, so it doesn't seem to be targeting a certain religion to mock them for labelling people with mean names for not being with them, and i've never heard of the word infidel being used in a violent, hate-filled, or otherwise bad self-label that would indicate somebody intends to label themself as an infidel simply to cause strife, I just don't see the case here to delete it :/. Yes yes, we all (hopefully) know not everyone agrees with people's POVs or religious (or in this case, irreligious) preference, but if people are angry at another's beliefs, (or once again, lack of belief) it just seems sort of silly to just delete everything because some people don't like another group of people. (Especially if it's a hasty generalization against a group) Homestarmy 01:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Practice moral relativism in policy debates. TheJabberwʘck 01:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete Speedying userboxes is divisive and inflammatory. Septentrionalis 04:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete — nathanrdotcom 05:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Being obviously unrelated to the mission of Misplaced Pages, the standard for deletion is "could this possibly be harmful in any way to the mission of Misplaced Pages?" For this template the answer is yes. Christopher Parham (talk) 14:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per Doc (and everyone else for that matter). Not only is this infobox confusing (is it talking about an infidel in Catholics' eyes, or Muslim eyes, or both?) but it is also inherently divisive. I also can't see any user using this for any purpose other than jest and/or to incite the religious groups they dislike. Do we really have to have five screens worth of debate for every single userbox's DRV?! Garrett 21:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete allowing people to identify themselves as infidels actually creates unity. It allows atheists and fundamentalists, Scientologists and Christian Scientists to come together in saying... "you, my friend, are an infidel." Seriously though, deleting userboxes that are anything short of profanity/vandalism should take place through TfD, not speedy, it causes more division than the boxen would on their own. <humor> Thats my 2 cents, and anyone who disagree's is an infidel. </humor> -- Dragoonmac - o I'll solve it 22:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
<smart-arse comment>"Disagrees" is neither possessive nor a contraction, you infidel!!!</smart-arse comment> ;) RadioKirk talk to me 23:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Blatantly inappropriate, does not have any positive connotations unlike other potentially offensive/devisive userboxes (i.e. no one "likes" infidels). --Vedek Dukat 23:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
While obviously you can belive they both exists their teching have some fairly fundimenatal contradictions over issues such as the divinity of Jesus. Of course Gandi claimed to be both but I don't think he could really be described as a solid follower of either.Geni 02:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
"What's going on down there? We're 23 billion miles off course!" <bseg> RadioKirk talk to me 02:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Have hope! (Unless you're an infidel!) Perhaps we're soon wrap around and return on the right tracks. Misza13 11:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong undelete Leave userspace alone; boxes like these aren't hurting anybody. There are far more important things to do on Misplaced Pages than spending time finding userboxes you disagree with and trying to get them deleted. romarin 02:23, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Point one: these boxes are NOT in Userspace - they're in TEMPLATE SPACE. Point two: Templates like this one challenge other users to create even more offensive ones. That's not why we are here on Misplaced Pages. Please read the official policies on WP:NOT regarding why we are here. Point three: Spending your time defending worthless userboxes is not a good use of your time, either. Please stop trying to keep them cluttering up Misplaced Pages. Please educate yourself on the issues before wading in. Nhprman 04:23, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You seem to know wikipedia policies very well, but have you ever heard about WP:NPA? It's very interesting, you'll see. You who are talking about "offensive" userboxes, maybe you should use a less offensive tone when addressing other users. IronChris | (talk) 00:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
If someone obviously can't tell the difference between Template space and User space, pointing that out and suggesting that they get better acquainted with the project is a not a personal attack. If I was the closing admin I'd discount that vote on the grounds that the editor didn't know what (s)he was discussing. Mackensen (talk) 02:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I would hope not; userboxes exist in template space but are only tramscluded into user space; and therefore can be legitmately viewed as either. Septentrionalis 05:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Overturn & TfD, this is stretching T1 a bit far, and definately not a speedy. --AySz88^-^ 04:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Overturn - Every userbox speedily deleted is brought to DRV. The only reason that admins prefer DRV over TFD is that DRV requires a 50% to delete a userbox while TFD requires a majority, say 2/3 to delete. Also by speedily deleting userboxes, they simply dissapear and are listed as protected versus the global notification to all users of a userbox in TFD procedure. Let's review.
TFD
  1. 66% majority to delete.
  2. Global notification to every user of a certain box.
DRV
  1. 50% majority to delete.
  2. No notification to users of a box.
  3. Deletion discussion is in an obsucure corner of wikipedia.

T1's only purpose is to rig the voting in the favor of the userbox deletionist. It's time to bring the userbox debates back to TFD--God Ω War 05:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Um... please read WP:FAITH. I can't believe sysops (in general, naturally) are maliciously deleting templates knowing their actions will be given the stamp of approval by DRV regulars and thus be over and done with quicker. If you are concerned about the mismatch of voting percentages please bring it up on the appropriate talk pages and something can be done about it. Although, arguably, I'd say the reason for this smaller percentage is that DRV has a different audience, of whom more are likely acquainted with policy thus making it easier to reach a satisfactory decision (read: one that doesn't defy policy, which I've seen at the end of countless Afds). Garrett 07:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
No the reason for the different percentages dates back to the deletion wars when the deletionists were concerned that Votes for undeletion would become in effect a second VFD. Orginaly Votes for undeletion was controled by policy wonk deletionsists who only cared if there deletion was within policy. Unfortunely this broke down for a number of reasons.Geni 08:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Well I've been quite out of the loop deletion policy-wise so I guess I've missed these things... but then again it's because of crap like that that I took a break from it all in the first place. Sigh. Garrett 09:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, WP:AGF and WP:IAR suggest that those admins who feel that userboxes are bad for Misplaced Pages would take whatever actions to get rid of them with as little dispute as possible. Hence, speedying if at all plausible under T1 (which this isn't), and waiting for the DRV. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
However if the admins who want to keep them took the same atitude the wheel wars would get anoying.Geni 22:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Precisely why I believe WP:JIMBO should impose a moritorium on the creation and deletion (you can't have one and not the other) of userboxes until a policy is finalized. RadioKirk talk to me 23:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
"Aw, for the love 'a... I for one am getting a little tired of people these days recoursing to the bonfire to expunge anything they don't like or find offensive. Don't like Christmas? Have it banned. Don't like the theory of Evolution? Get it bounced from the schools. Despise crucifixes, yarmulkes and Muslim head scarves? Forbid people to wear them. Don't like editorial cartoons? Just riot and threaten death upon the publishers until they stop printing them. Go through the local library and destroy any book you personally disagree with. Don;t dare ignore or gasp engage with a viewpoint you disagree with, because you'll end up contaminated. If we hold to that asinine standard, there is going to be nothing left, and we'll be left sitting upon the ashes of another Library of Alexandria, because I gaurantee you there is something that offends everybody. I will die before I let that happen."
Free speech and humour aren't a bad thing, especially in an encyclopedia. Unless it insults someone or a category of people, which this userbox doesn't. IronChris | (talk) 00:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
You're bringing up the War on Christmas strawman and you think it helps your argument?! --Cyde Weys 00:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
NOTE: This comment was originally by Pat Payne, as I said. I don't even know what the war on Christmas thing is. And it was hardly the central argument, nor is it the purpose of this debate, so why leave a comment on it at all? This discussion is already long enough. IronChris | (talk) 00:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
You're the one who chose to repost it though, thus you take some responsibility for the veracity of its statements. If you don't really stand by what the quote says you shouldn't be posting it, or you should at least be examining it in a critical light. By posting it in the way you did implies that you agree with it, and I have every right to disagree with it in turn, and you can't just turn around and say, "Oh, well I take no responsibility for it, someone else said it." --Cyde Weys 00:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
You are most absolutely right. But let me point out that it was just one small example among others. So why are we discussing this? It's not what the debate's about. May I remind you that we are talking about the infidel userbox. Regards, IronChris | (talk) 00:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Many people here seem to find this box funny, and suggest undeleting on those grounds. I'm appalled at the notion. Muslims take very seriously the difference between themselves and those who are not a member of their faith. This isn't true for all Muslims, of course, but it's true for many of them. We're trying to build an encyclopedia here, and we welcome contributors from every possible ethnic, cultural, and national background. This template is a juvenile slap in the face. Mackensen (talk) 02:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
"Infidel" doesn't specifically mean muslim, or any other social or religious category for that matter. It is a very general term meaning someone who doubts or rejects a religion, see the infidel article. If it just meant muslim, then I would totally agree with you, but I had never interpreted it that way before. IronChris | (talk) 02:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I think Mackensen is claiming that "infidel" means non-Muslim; but that just makes Ironchris's point. Septentrionalis 04:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

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