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Christianity: Methodism List‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity List This article has been rated as List-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by Methodism work group (assessed as Low-importance).

This article was nominated for deletion on 21 November 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of List of Methodist churches was copied or moved into List of Methodist churches in the United States with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... there are numerous Methodist churches which are notable and having a list of them is fine. See wp:CLT for discussion why complementary categories, list-articles, navboxes can exist. This barely started. No reason suggested why this is not a reasonable list topic. --doncram 02:56, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

The speedy deletion was removed in this edit by editor TheCatalyst31 with edit summary "this is a list, which doesn't fall under A7, and the two places on it assert notability". --doncram 18:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

"local" as it applies to Methodist Churches

The term "local" is used to refer to individual churches within Methodism. It is fundamental to the Methodist understanding of the church. One such reference to this practice is ¶201 of The United Methodist Book of Discipline, 2008. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Revmqo (talk • contribs) 01:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I didn't see your comment here before I posted the new section below. This seems very relevant. Could you possibly please add to a statement about use of "local" which I will draft and put into the article. Thanks, --doncram 23:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Good by you, Doncram? Is there any way to add the citation to the Page Title itself? I don't think so, but I don't know much! :-) --Revmqo (talk) 23:38, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Ryan Vesey - This issue has been the subject of much debated between Orlady, Doncram, and several others. How about particpating in the discussion to build consensus rather than editing first and asking questions later?--Revmqo (talk) 20:53, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you should look at the section below where I asked you twice for your thoughts with no response. Ryan Vesey 21:25, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

But basically, I believe the information should be removed for 3 reasons. The relevant sentence is "In many cases the name of a church as a congregation is synonymous with the name of a corresponding building". That information isn't necessary for this article and doesn't comply with articles in the list like "Andrews Chapel". Second, there is an insert into that sentence "which would be termed a "local" church in Methodism". That is based on ¶201 of The United Methodist Book of Discipline here. There is no emphasis on the term "local" used in that reference and no indication that it is used in any other way than to describe a Local church. Any other interpretation is original research and not worthy of inclusion. The third reasons is the reference note we use for that sentence. That note is full of original research "perhaps unique to methodism" and the term "local" as if it is somehow symbolizing something different than what is described in local church. It is true that Methodism emphasizes that individual churches should be involved in discipleship and outreach in the community; however, that is hardly relevant to this article. It could be included in Methodism as long as it didn't emphasize the importance of the term "local" in some strange OR way. Ryan Vesey 22:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Doncram will have to speak to whether or not he is willing to accept the edit. I am simply pointing out that it has been the subject of intense debate and to simply dismiss that debate and make a unilateral edit does not recognize the efforts of others. As for your suggestion that "local" as used in the sentence represents Original Research.... this represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the Methodist use of the word. Yes ¶201 is one source, but the rest of the chapter fleshes out the use of the term. Also the practice and structure of the church proves that "local" is in fact fundamental to the Methodist understanding of the church. ¶¶201-205 make this abundantly clear. I invite your edits and participation in the ongoing discussion, but to make an edit that says "Not relevant nor important to methodism" when the opposite is true invites my skepticism.--Revmqo (talk) 22:37, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Why don't we take a step back. Can you explain what the sentence "local" is a term used to refer to individual churches within Methodism, fundamental to the Methodist understanding of the church means? It's quite possible that we are on two entirely separate wavelengths. I still contend that the statements are original research when you consider the statement "This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources". The material in the article (specifically the information on local churches) is analysis of a published source and isn't directly supported by the source. The information about the names being synonymous is unsupported entirely. Ryan Vesey 23:26, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I will endeavor to be as succinct as possible. (Some info is for later readers, no implied suggestions)

The term “church” has different understood meanings as you move across denominations.

1) In Roman Catholicism, the “church” refers to the Roman Catholic Church as a whole. Every local congregation is really just a part of one church, and rules are dispensed from the Vatican. The polity is decidedly Episcopal/hierarchical.

2) In the Southern Baptist Convention, “church” likely refers to an individual congregation. The polity is congregational, and rules are derived from the individual congregation’s understanding of scripture in the light of a greater Southern Baptist mindset.

3) In the United Methodist Church, the term “church” has a myriad of meanings. Does the speaker mean an individual congregation? Does he mean the Church Universal? The District Church? The Annual Conference? United Methodist polity is Connectional, not Congregational. Rules are derived from the denomination’s quadrennial meeting, “The General Conference.” The Administration of the church happens at the local level, but also at the district and annual conference level. Thus when referring to an individual congregation, the denomination has historically called that body the “local church.” The UMC defines the local church as the basic unit of ministry within the denomination. It is the level at which people form relationships of mutual support and accountability. If you remove the word “local,” then you must decide which level of the denomination to which you are referring.

The Book of Discipline, 2008, of the United Methodist Church defines the ministry of the local church in Part V, Chapter One. For 78 pages it goes on to define the role, responsibilities, and expectations of the “local church.” In almost every case, when the word church appears it is preceded by the word “local.” The chapter itself is entitled “The Local Church,” not the local “Church.” The word “local” is intrinsic to any discussion of an individual church within Methodism.

Further, a particular role of ministry with the UMC is that of “Local Pastor.” A Local Pastor is a layperson that is empowered/authorized to function as a pastor with sacramental authority within a “Local Church.” But only a specific “Local Church.” The terms are established as such to draw the connection between the two uses.

I cited the 2008 book since it is the most recent published version. The 1952 Discipline of the Methodist Church, in part II “The Local Church, chapter 1 “The Pastoral Charge,” ¶ 102, states “ The local church (bold text is present in original source document) is a connectional society of persons who have professed their faith in Christ, have been baptized, have assumed the vows of membership in The Methodist Church, and are associated in fellowship as a local Methodist church in order that they may hear the Word of God, receive the Sacraments and carry forward the work which Christ has committed to his Church.”

Clearly the use is historical, intentional, and intrinsic to a Methodist understanding of a particular, or “local” church.--Revmqo (talk) 00:17, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

local or public or other options in name of this list-article

At the AFD, some editors have questioned and supported use of the word "local" in the name of this list-article. Please discuss here, okay, so the AFD can be closed?

Some comments about "local" and "public": (begin copied comments with ellipses (...) indicating other text omitted)

• I'm just slightly concerned over the usage of the term "local". Local to what, exactly? If you were to incorporate churches from all over the world that pass notability guidelines, at some point it'd cease being a list of local churches because England would not be considered local to the USA. I wouldn't even consider a church in California to be local to say, Nevada. It's such a vague yet specific term. Now if you intended the usage of the term "local" to mean "public", the list should be re-named List of public Methodist Churches to avoid confusion over the term "local"....Tokyogirl79 (talk) 06:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
  • I took "local" to mean an individual congregation and/or its building, to distinguish it from the overarching organization, as both may be called "church". I don't understand at all your use of the term "public" in this context. postdlf (talk) 15:23, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
    • I am not familiar with the term "public church". From a Google search, I learn that at least one denomination (not Methodist) and some congregations style themselves as "public churches", meaning that they are actively engaged with society at large. I don't think that's a good term to introduce here. In contrast, the Misplaced Pages disambiguation page Church and the articles Church (building) and Local church provide a reasonable basis for a common understanding of terms used (or potentially used) in this list article. --Orlady (talk) 14:28, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
• ...A rename is ok too.... --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 21:09, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
  • .... the term "local" is an entirely appropriate and source-able term when referring to a church within Methodist denominations. --Revmqo (talk) 01:14, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
    • In what aspect, though? If it's a term used in a way other than "this is local to myself personally" in how the term "local" is used 99% of the time, it needs to be sourced and elaborated on in the article to explain how the term differs from the typical usage of the term local. Most of the times I've seen the term used, it's used in reference to something that was local to another topic, such as the church being local to the town of Town-ville or that John Smith went to his local church.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 05:01, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
      • Do you accept that there can be more than one meaning to the word "local"? You seem to be wrapped around one definition, but there are in fact more definitions of the word. At this point the word is only used in the title. The appropriate reference would be ¶201 of "The United Methodist Book of Discipline, 2008". Nashville: The United Methodist Publishing House, 2008. I am not sure how to put a reference in the title of a page. My earlier comment was only to show that it is an appropriate use. If you want to move the page to one with a new title, go ahead as far as I am concerned, but the word is used appropriately.--Revmqo (talk) 15:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

(end of copied comments)

To add, I'll offer that I chose to use the word "local" in the title based on how I thought it would go with the United Methodist Church article which had/has a section, "Local churches". There have been multiple Methodist churches in the sense of complete whole religious orders (e.g. United Methodist Church, predecessors The Methodist Church and the Evangelical United Brethren Church and others). "Local" is a word that clarifies that an individual congregation/building is meant, without getting bogged down into which order the individual church belonged to at which time. I chose not to include the word "United" to allow for coverage of non-United ones, though the list-article could potentially eventually be split by United vs. other if the distinction is very important and divides the local churches cleanly, or by geography, or otherwise. If others think that "public" or some other term works better than "local" or that no such term is needed in the title to differentiate from entire church orders, I am sure I would be fine with a page rename/move. --doncram 17:53, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think it's necessary to go to United Methodist documents to define "local church." As I noted in the comment on the AFD page that somehow didn't get copied here (I've added it here now), the Misplaced Pages disambiguation page Church and the articles Church (building) and Local church provide a reasonable basis for a common understanding of terms used (or potentially used) in this list article. --Orlady (talk) 23:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
  • • If you took the time to read the Local church page you keep trying to push, and the source document that I posted, you will see that the word "local" can have radically different meanings when the context for its use is changed! Rather than being obstinate, why not make real suggestions as to what make you happy?--Revmqo (talk) 00:20, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Okay, you've said that 3 times now. Umm, aren't you opposed to the existence of this list-article? I didn't copy your comment because I thought you were invested in opposing, rather than developing this article. I advise the deletion nominator not to interfere in the article under deletion review, so please don't edit in the article. If you no longer oppose, please withdraw your AFD. But, anyhow, the Local church article you recommend is a wikipedia article labelled as having no sources, not a reliable source for reference from this list-article. Editor Revmqo and I have developed this topic somewhat in the article. I don't expect to reply further here. --doncram 00:02, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
• All that's really needed is a 1-2 sentence statement to clarify its usage within the scope of the title. For instance: "This is a list of local Methodist churches, in which religion the term "local" is often used in a colloquial context to designate the Methodist religion as a whole rather than the more common usage of the term as a means of physical location." Then we source it with one document that backs this up. That's really all I'm asking for in the article if the name isn't changed and I think it's a reasonable request. I know that the article's lead is somewhat trying to state this, but it's sort of clunkily written. I'd also like to use one of these as a source to back up the usage of the term local: , . Both are academic texts and it's always good to supplement a primary source with a non-primary one and you can't do much better than an academic text in most cases. I'm still a little concerned because while the term is somewhat used, the church as a whole tends to use the term to designate location rather than to show the church as a whole. It's no biggie as long as it's neutrally stated and sourced, though.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 06:14, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• For the sake of consensus I figured that I'd post that sentence here rather than paste it into the lead, since I don't want to get into a revert war. I think it more succinctly summarizes the term "local" in the context of the Methodist church and considering that this is ultimately a list, we don't really need a long and flowery introduction. I'd also like to state that I'm concerned that the current state of the article gives undue weight to the UK branches and buildings. We have long paragraphs about the churches in the UK, but not much about the churches in any other country. This is why I really think it'd be better to create articles for each continent rather than lump them all together. If someone is more of an expert on British churches and writes predominantly on that while only writing a few sentences on the Chinese or American churches, it becomes lopsided and uneven. It's not that the paragraphs are bad, just that more emphasis and priority seems to be given to the UK churches.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 06:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks Tokyogirl79 for your concern and for your courtesy. But I don't quite understand "local" to mean what you say it means in Methodism. From the perspective of an interested outsider, I thought it did mean a local-in-location individual church building and its congregation, not "the Methodist religion as a whole" that you suggest it means.
• About the coverage of multiple countries, I think that will even out, and we should split out countries only when growth of the worldwide list requires it. That said, I would really like to find some notable Canadian, Korean, Chinese, other Methodist churches sooner rather than later to put into this article. --doncram 23:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• That was kind of my argument for taking "local" out, because the term is sort of archaic. It is sort of used, but predominantly the term is used to specify location rather than to show that the churches are all part of one unified branch of Christianity. Many refer to the Church (as a whole rather than the individual churches) in a similar manner as the Catholic religion does, saying the One Church or they just refer to it as the Methodist religion. The only places you generally see the term used are in documents, mostly older ones. The usage of the term as anything other than location has really tapered off since then. It's kind of how 30 years ago you could say "gay" and people would automatically associate it with "happy", whereas today people automatically think of it in its more common term as a sexual orientation. It's still used, but nowhere near as frequently. That's why if it is to be left as that, it needs to be pretty pointedly clear. I'd just as soon remove the word "local" because it's such an antiquated term. The "new hotness" tends to be just referring to the Christian religion by it's branch name (Baptist, Methodist, etc) or using terms such as "Unified", "United" or such.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 02:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Again, I think you are both misunderstanding the use of the term "local" within Methodism. Sort of like amino acids are the building blocks of cells, "local" churches are the base unit for ministry within the Methodist Church. While the building is technically a church, in a Methodist understanding it is the membership (the people) who form the church. It isn't an archaic term, and it doesn't refer to Methodism as a whole.... it refers to one piece of a larger whole which is the church, in this case the Methodist church. If it is misleading to the reader, then I would invite them to read to find the answer for their confusion. While it is used appropriately for this article, why not just move the page to a new one entitled "A list of Methodist churches"?????--Revmqo (talk) 03:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Revmqo, you are misunderstanding the term "local" within Methodism. In Methodism, the term "local" refers to a specific congregation, not a building. When John Wesley was spreading his message in the United States, he preached in tents and open areas. Much of his ministry was in mining camps. Other denominations would build a structure and would use that as their base for evangelism. This article is about the buildings and should be renamed to "List of Methodist Churches". The lead should make a point that it refers to all branches of the Methodist Church. In addition, I feel you place far too much emphasis on the term local. If you read the relevant chapter of the Book of Discipline of the UMC, you can see that the emphasis being placed isn't on the term local. It is on the fact that at a local level, the Church is responsible for ministry. That is one of the core tenants of Methodism, that every church should be involved in Missions. Regardless, this is a list of buildings so local does not belong in the title and "Perhaps unique to Methodism, the "local" church is considered to be the most important tool through which discipleship occurs. It is understood to be the true community of believers, and it is the redemptive fellowship in which the sacraments are administered and practiced. As such, "local" is a term used to refer to individual churches within Methodism, fundamental to the Methodist understanding of the church" should be removed. It doesn't come close to using encyclopedic language and it isn't relevant to the topic again because this is a list of buildings. Ryan Vesey 15:27, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

For anyone who hasn't seen the section Revmqo is referring to, it is here. The chapter is setting guidelines for Churches at a local level. No extra importance for the term local is expressed in the chapter and any comment on our part relating to that is WP:OR. Since this discussion has become both one for what the title should be and how the information should be presented, should a separate move discussion take place or should it be moved based on the outcome of this discussion? Ryan Vesey 15:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Ryan Vesey: Why don't you re-read my comments? We are saying the same thing.--Revmqo (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

You are correct, I misread your most recent post; however, I still feel the second paragraph is out of place for this list article. Ryan Vesey 18:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Revmqo, are you currently opposed to removing the second paragraph? Ryan Vesey 21:32, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Page move

I have moved this page to List of Methodist churches. Using this title is clearly correct and I don't see any opposition to moving it. Ryan Vesey 18:16, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Redundant Language

The use of the term Methodist and Methodism, and a clear list with church from varying Methodist denominations makes the sentence "this list includes any Methodist denomination" redundant. The sentence as inserted also makes the opening paragraph flow improperly.--Revmqo (talk) 18:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be desirable for the article to include a link to List of Christian denominations#Methodists? Otherwise, won't there be conflicts over adding churches that are denoted as (for example) "Wesleyan"? --Orlady (talk) 19:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• I have no problem with that link being added.--Revmqo (talk) 21:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I felt it was necessary because the term Methodism evokes different things depending on who is asked. Personally, when I hear Methodist, I think of United Methodism. I understand that there are various forms of Methodism (my grandparents are Free Methodist). Others hearing Methodist might immediately associate it with Free Methodism or some other form. The statement I used makes it clear that this list contains all Methodist churches and it limits the scope of the article by excluding denominations like Wesleyan Church (per Orlady). Ryan Vesey 20:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Remember that you bring pre-concieved notions to your reading of the article. The article says "Methodist" churches. Not United Methodist, Free Methodist, or Methodist Church of England. That being said, I see no problem with adding a 'further' link that directs to the page listed by Orlady above.--Revmqo (talk) 21:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

My point with that was that I bring pre-conceived notions, and many readers will bring pre-conceived notions. The clarification is there for the reader. In regards to the flow of the article, it can be modified somewhat, but I feel the link I included should be mentioned in the first paragraph so it is clear that the article includes all Methodist churches. Ryan Vesey 21:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Again, how about reading my whole comment before you reply? I have no problem with the link that you inserted, except that its structure was haphazard at best. Inserting a Further information: List of Christian denominations § Methodists link would avoid paragraph wording problems, and probably make us all happy. However, I am not absolutely sure that this proposed linked page is the best one. Are there suggestions for another page that might be a better informational fit?--Revmqo (talk) 21:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I read your whole comment, let's try to be less condescending. My point is that we should be more clear than we currently are. WP:LIST says "Don't leave readers confused over the list's inclusion criteria or have editors guessing what may be added to the list". While I admit that saying it is a list of notable Methodist churches implies that it includes all denominations within Methodism, our failure to make that clear to those who have preconceived ideas of the word Methodist can leave readers confused over the list's inclusion criteria. I also disagree with a generic further link because the article doesn't provide further information on the topics presented in this article. Linking to it while stating all denominations are included would be acceptable. Ryan Vesey 21:42, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

The first sentence includes a link to Methodist, which links to a description of Methodism worldwide. There's no need to make this more complicated. --Revmqo (talk) 21:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

More complicated? How do we determine which part is more complicated? Remember that readers don't have Masters of Divinity degrees and readers don't follow every link. Clarification should always be preferred over anything that requires the reader to have a certain level of understanding. Ryan Vesey 21:54, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Terms

For the record, "British Methodism" and "American Methodism" aren't newly coined terms, but rather the general terminology for discussing the two predominant strains of Methodism.... i.e. British and American....--Revmqo (talk) 03:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for that. I thought that they were possibly meaningful phrases. I removed them as section titles and think they should stay removed though (not saying you are arguing otherwise). Anyhow, the sections in the list-article are for churches in Britain, churches in United States, and in other locations. I suppose it is possible that in the United States or in China or in Canada there could exist churches following both "American Methodism" or "British Methodism" models. The sections are not about defining what "American Methodism" is, etc. --doncram 23:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with the change. You are correct that there are British Methodist Churches that exist in America and vice versa. Rare but they do exist.--Revmqo (talk) 23:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Good. Then it would be appropriate to identify the rare ones of the unexpected type, in the text above the list of British churches and above the list of U.S. ones. If that is done, then some definition of American vs. British methodism would indeed be needed in the upper intro, too. Are there articles on British Methodism and on American Methodism and/or are these terms defined somewhere in wikipedia? --doncram 00:59, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Split out AME ones, all U.S. ones?

There exists a separate list article about African Methodist Episcopal churches, so I wonder if the AME ones should be split out from here. However, for the moment I am developing the NRHP items of all types, in the U.S. section. The whole U.S. section could possibly soon be split to a separate article, or just the AME ones out of it. Open for discussion, but please do allow me to develop the U.S. ones here for now. --doncram 23:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Personally I believe they should be listed together. They are both Methodist denominations. If we separate them, then we need to create a UMC page and then separate the others out as well.... i.e. Methodist Church of Britain, Methodist Church of Singapore, etc.--Revmqo (talk) 23:28, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay by me to keep AME here. I added all U.S. NRHP ones that have "Methodist" in their NRHP listing name; these are almost all valid entries to this list, tho there may be a few to be weeded out. Where "First Methodist Parsonage" or similar is listed, there is obviously a church associated, so I think the item stays in (altho the parsonage but not the likely-more-modern church is what is NRHP-listed), and the corresponding article can address both. Next I want to add the U.S. NRHP ones that have "AME" or "A.M.E." or similar in their name; so far have only caught some AME ones where "Methodist" was spelled out. Current article size is 152,493 bytes, big but not too much IMO. --doncram 23:06, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget the AMEZ and CME ones as well.--Revmqo (talk) 05:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Had the AMEZ ones already, then also went and got any with either "CME" or "C.M.E.", also. Thanks for pointing this out. --doncram 20:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

• It's time to split the US churches into List of Methodist churches in the United States. We can use {{Main}} to point readers to that article. Ryan Vesey 13:27, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

  Okay, done, split out now to that title. --doncram 20:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

about adding Central Halls

In the (ridiculous) AFD, there was mention of "several current and former Methodist Central Halls in the UK: Methodist Central Hall, Birmingham, Grand Central Hall in Liverpool, and Methodist Central Hall Westminster in London", by mention of Central Hall dab page. It was suggested that these should not be added, on basis they may be regarded as not-churches. I mean no disrespect, but think these should be added, and the intro/lede adjusted as necessary to accommodate them. I'll pause for comments. --doncram 02:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Notability of churches

So if this is a list of "notable" Methodist churches, then how come so many of them have redlinks? Methinks it could do with a good old fashioned culling. Bazonka (talk) 22:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Nope. All the ones i have added are listed on the Canadian register of historic sites or on the U.S. national register of historic places. They are all individually wikipedia-notable, they have passed multiple levels of review by professionals, and extensive documentation exists for each one of them. Among the U.S. states, the documentation is on-line for almost all of them in California, Colorado, Connecticut, and many other states; it is available but not as convenient for Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, other others. See wp:NRHPhelp for more info about NRHP documentation. I'm gonna start articles for the first alphabetical item in each state, if there is not already one, and will continue starting more articles gradually. But, every current redlinks is valid. --doncram 23:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

If articles are going to be created, then I suppose that's OK. I do find it a bit odd that there are hundreds of US churches and only 3 for England though. I wonder if there is a similar criteria for establishing the notability of UK buildings? (I don't think listing is appropriate because there's all sorts of non-notable stuff that's listed.) But if the UK list is expanded much, then I would recommend splitting the article. Bazonka (talk) 23:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Good, thanks, and yes I agree. It would be good to interest some British editors and develop out that section of this list-article, or figure out ourselves how to identify the items to add. I think that Grade I and Grade II* listed buildings are usually regarded as Misplaced Pages-notable, while Grade II ones are not. I don't know how to tell how many, and what are the names of, the British I and II* Methodist church buildings. Indeed this list can and should be split eventually. Cheers, --doncram 00:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

All UK listed buildings are regarded as being notable; the definition of a Grade II listed building is that the building is "nationally important and of special interest", which IMO satisfies the requirement of notability. When I have time, I'll look for listed Methodist church buildings in the UK. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I've had a further look at the list and IMO it is impractical to create a list with this title. A list should be comprehensive; with this title it should contain all the Methodist churches in the world, active and closed. Even the addition of the word "notable" would not help – problems of definition, etc. I've had a look at the listed Methodist churches and chapels in England alone. The word "Methodist" provides 1,549 buildings. Not all of these are actual churches, but I did a quick survey of the first 100 "hits". This produced 46 active Methodist churches, 12 closed (but notable) churches, and two churches in combined use. Even a List of listed Methodist churches in England would be enormous if we were to include the amount of detail, photos, etc required to make a good list. I added Wesley's Chapel to the list before I realised this impracticability. I suggest much splitting before too much time is wasted. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for contributing to the discussion here and for adding the Wesley's Chapel one. As you'll see I just split out the U.S. section. After considering that the United Kingdom section can be split out, and further split as needed into smaller articles, I don't think you really disagree about the practicality of listing the notable Methodist churches in the U.K., even if there are 700 of them, do you? There are at least several hundred U.S. ones already listed. As noted in the AFD about this list, the List of RHPs in the U.S. is a huge list (of more than 85,000 items) that was eventually split many times. And the U.K. methodist church list can and should be split when necessary, probably best by geography. Also, I see no way that any time has been wasted or could be wasted, by developing U.K. list here. Anyhow, there's more room now in this article; load-time is reduced by the U.S. ones being split out. I do hope you can add more U.K. Methodist ones here or in a split-out article. Or, can you point me to how to get the potential 700 items to add myself? Thanks again! --doncram 20:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you only going to include nationally listed Methodist churches, or include locally listed ones as well? Have a look at http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/listed/localist/hhmethod.htm for an example of the latter.--Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I'll have a go at splitting the UK churches off tomorrow. The title will be Listed Methodist churches in the United Kingdom (to match other listed building lists). To add the English listed churches go here, click on List Entry Text, insert "Methodist" in the box, and click on "Search". This will give you more than you want (all the pages including the word Methodist), but you can sort out the churches and chapels as you work through it. Good luck. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 21:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I hugely appreciate the many great articles about Listed buildings and lists of them, which you have created, and appreciate your contributing here. If the only way to have your interest is by your creating a list-article by that name, I'd take it. But, that said, I think it would help readers more if the list were List of Methodist churches in the United Kingdom, allowing for coverage of former church buildings and of spectacular modern church buildings and of congregations that are notable for other-than-their-building reasons. It would mostly be churches notable for their architecture or other reasons that the buildings are listed, I do expect, but I'd rather not see a separate, awkward Methodist churches in London other than ones in Listed buildings, or a comprehensive list re-stating all the Listed building ones.

Specifically, what about Methodist Central Hall Westminster, Surrey Chapel, Trinity Independent Chapel, West Street Chapel and maybe West London Methodist Mission? These, besides the Wesley's Chapel one that is in a listed building, make up Category:Methodist churches in London. I think having one unified list, divided by geography, is better for readers....who, focusing specifically on Methodist churches, would like to learn about all of the notable ones in an area, i think.

Also, I don't know if, in England, churches decline Listed buildings status. In the U.S., many churches (more than other types of building owners) do decline to be listed in the National Register, so any list of just NRHP ones would omit too many obviously notable historic buildings. In the U.S. sections of List of Methodist churches, List of Unitarian churches, List of Presbyterian churches, List of Anglican churches most items will be churches that have National Register-listed buildings, but there will be a good number of others. And for a notable for other reasons one, All Saints Episcopal Church (Pasadena, California) is one in the Anglican list now, which is notable for its activism, and is repeatedly in the U.S. national news, but it is not NRHP-listed.

In the U.S., BTW, i don't like the too-narrow-in-my-view List of bridges on the National Register of Historic Places in California and in each other state. Those omit other historic bridges, and omit modern bridges, and leave the state-wide lists of bridges in an awkward position of either duplicating them or being a hard-to-explain leftover list. The natural order of reader interest there, I think, is "Bridge" then "Area" then go to the individual one, or maybe first divide by "historic" vs. "modern" (and simply identify whether the bridge still exists or not). Here, with churches, i think the most natural order of reader interest is "Methodist" then "Area" then go to the specific one, without dividing by "in a Listed building" vs. "notable as a congregation" vs. "previously existed".

All these are just my thoughts, about how I feel getting away from being just like other NRHP lists or just like other Listed Building lists, is best, for these church list-articles. Again, if you really want to limit it to just the listed buildings, I'd like to understand why you prefer to not cover the other ones, but I'd generally want to go along. Okay, i'll try adding some if i have time later tonight. Thanks! --doncram 22:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Red links in See Also

WP:SEEALSO prohibits red links in the see also section. I thought I'd make the note here rather than remove them again. Ryan Vesey 22:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, please don't remove them. Thank you, honestly, for posting here instead. This is itself a brand new list, under construction, and it should naturally link to the other comparable lists of other church denominations' churches. I am starting those and they won't stay redlinks for long. It is unnecessarily disruptive to remove them. Another editor--the editor who nominated this list for AFD and who seems to focus on following me and causing interruptions--did remove them once, but I have since started several of the articles. If any more editors want to claim credit for identifying some small criticism of this new article, please do claim credit here on the Talk page, or somewhere else, rather than disrupting the article itself. :) --doncram 22:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Was there a reason (other than long-standing deep-seated animosity toward me) for removing the "see also" link to the list of Primitive Baptist churches that I added? --Orlady (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2012 (UTC) Also note the existence of List of Strict Baptist churches. --Orlady (talk) 00:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

As you know fully well Orlady, I do resent your following and criticizing. And playing the victim, even, that is your current game.... you are so innocently "just trying to help"? and finding that I do not appreciate your help... of course I do not. Anyone but you could do a better job "helping" in any of this. And, I put a link to the List of Primitive Baptist churches into the larger List of Baptist churches instead; it is included within that so doesn't need to be linked separately. Anyhow, is that your fine piece of work that you wish to promote for some reason? It is a shoddy list, frankly. --doncram 02:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

List of Primitive Baptist Churches should be linked from here, no doubt about it. It doesn't matter what the quality of the article is. In addition, like I pointed out, red links are prohibited in the see also section. Even if you intend to create the articles later,the red links can't exist until they are created. Another option for presenting these would be in a navbox. That way, it could be presented in a uniform manner across all of the church listing articles. Your responses to Orlady are WP:OWN violations. It doesn't matter whether you appreciate her help or not, she is helping an article that is not yours. It also doesn't matter that she nominated the article for deletion. One of my favorite articles is one that I nominated for deletion. I suggest you treat Orlady as you would any other editor. Ryan Vesey 02:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, that editor has long expressed hatred and has harassed me for years. It is long term harassment, bullying, evil. The editor has refused mediation which once possibly could have cleared up some stuff, i dunno. It's a long pattern of following me, of battling, of urging on bully assistants (read about patterns in bullying). Of multiple ANIs, of exceeding 3rr, of abuse of admin privileges, all in a cause of hate following me. I don't follow that editor. That editor follows me. Sorry, i cannot interpret new s*** as if this person is innocent, it is long past assuming good faith. And, i suppose now that editor is pleased to egg you on a bit.

About the one or two remaining redlinks in the See also section, as you could see I am starting those articles, all of them link to each other, it would simply cause unnecessary work to remove the links. REmoving them, as this editor has done, is just to interrupt, to harass, frankly, and to cobble up a situation of contention at the Talk page now. --doncram 05:44, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

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