Talk:Jesus - Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Humanpublic (talk | contribs) at 15:35, 24 December 2012 (→"Virtually all scholars"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 15:35, 24 December 2012 by Humanpublic (talk | contribs) (→"Virtually all scholars")(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff) The answer to your question may already be in the FAQ.The FAQ provides links to archived talk page discussions.
Please read the FAQ.

Skip to table of contents

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jesus article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137Auto-archiving period: 10 days

The answer to your question may already be in the FAQ. Please read the FAQ first.

Jesus was one of the Philosophy and religion good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 17, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
June 2, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
August 3, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
November 2, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
May 3, 2005	Articles for deletion	Kept
October 6, 2005	Peer review	Reviewed
December 12, 2005	Good article nominee	Listed
December 15, 2005	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
April 14, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
November 27, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
April 21, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
August 21, 2007	WikiProject A-class review	Approved
July 12, 2009	Good article reassessment	Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Religion Top‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Christianity: Bible / Jesus / Theology / Saints / Catholicism / Eastern O. / Oriental O. / Jewish / Anglicanism / Latter Day Saints Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity

Top

This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Associated task forces:
/
	Bible portal This article is supported by WikiProject Bible (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article is within the scope of the Jesus work group, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive.
	This article is supported by theology work group (assessed as Top-importance).
	Saints portal This article is supported by WikiProject Saints (assessed as Top-importance).
	Catholic Church portal This article is supported by WikiProject Catholicism (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Jewish Christianity (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Anglicanism (assessed as Top-importance).
	Latter Day Saints portal This article is supported by WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement (assessed as Top-importance).

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Islam Mid‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Biography: Core

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is listed on the project's core biographies page.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Bahá'í Faith High‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bahá'í Faith, a coordinated attempt to increase the quality and quantity of information about the Baháʼí Faith on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.Bahá'í FaithWikipedia:WikiProject Bahá'í FaithTemplate:WikiProject Bahá'í FaithBahá'í Faith
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Bible Top‑importance

	Bible portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Religion Top‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:WP1.0

Template:Controversial (history) Template:Pbneutral

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Jesus. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Jesus at the Reference desk.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jesus article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: What should this article be named? A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname. Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates? A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format. Q3: Did Jesus exist? A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Misplaced Pages?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

Based on this Misplaced Pages search the phrase is widely used in Misplaced Pages.
The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Misplaced Pages guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Misplaced Pages guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian? A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally. For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine, Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."
Finally, Misplaced Pages policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others? A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc. Q6: Why is the infobox so brief? A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?: Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?: The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus? A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions. Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences? A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians. Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus? A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion. Q10: Why does the article state "ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this? A10: Misplaced Pages requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

To-do list for Jesus: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2013-06-02

Talk:Jesus/archivebox

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

"Virtually all scholars"

The sentence "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed." is pretty unusual wording. I was going to change it but I saw the note on the article asking to leave comments here. Usually we would want to be a lot more precise than 'virtually all' which seems rather weasel word like (the virtually), and hard to back up even with the listed sources. Might I propose changing it to "There is little contention among scholars of antiquity that Jesus existed."? I think this gets across the point that most scholars agree Jesus is a historical figure, without using this 'virtually all' construction. Comments? Prodego 21:10, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

If we had a penny every time this is discussed... Please look at the archives for a loooong discussion on that. The source says that, and it has been discussed on talk, WP:RSN, etc. So please see that. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

That response doesn't actually address my question. Prodego 21:16, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, put it another way, my thinking is that virtually all is accurate, given that it corresponds to the source, and past talk page discussions also indicate that, so it is not just my thinking alone. History2007 (talk) 21:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

That phrasing is used because that is what scholarship says (published scholars of repute say that virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed). We've been over it ad nauseum... just trust us on this one this time. ReformedArsenal (talk) 21:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

In fairness we need a link to the archives in the FAQ so people do not have to search for them. I will try to get those FAQ links added. History2007 (talk) 21:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok, well I don't think I've ever seen "virtually all" used in a Misplaced Pages article before, and I've edited for quite a long time. The fact that it is contentious is probably a sign that this wording is problematic, which is consistent with my impression. I'm curious if either of you have problems with my wording? Previous discussion doesn't prevent change, though I'll definitely want to look through that. Prodego 21:24, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually that was also discussed: Misplaced Pages uses that term all over. And this definition clarified the term, etc. And given that this page gets 400,000 views a month, a discussion here or there is not really contentious in the larger scheme. And I am sorry, but I think your wording deviates from the source. History2007 (talk) 21:31, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, and any wording that deviates ever so slightly from the source is likely to be attacked as inaccurate or hyperbolic. Not that using the same wording as the source precludes such attacks entirely, but it makes it much easier to reply. Huon (talk) 21:43, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

It is false that all scholars agree that Jesus existed. "Virtually all" is a weasel-word tactic. There is no poll from a reputable pollster. In fact, there is no poll at all, that I know of. There is no statement in a peer-reviewed, non-Christian journal saying "virtually all." In fact, nobody has produced an example of a peer-reviewed, non-theological article saying it is fact that Jesus existed at all. I'm not sure there is no such source, but none has been provided. All such sources are written for a popular audience, and usually the authors have a religious background. Many of the books are published by the Christian press, whose editors obviously aren't going to question whether Jesus was real. The wording should really be changed to "According to so-and-so, virtually all....". Humanpublic (talk) 23:50, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

"Virtually all" is the wording used by our reliable source, an academic published with a reputable publisher. We have Michael Grant, a classicist, saying the same thing. He does so in a book, not a journal article, but that's also a reliable source, and Orion Publishing is not a "Christian press". Neither is Cambridge University Press which published Dunn's essay that says the same thing. Of course there's Van Voorst, a scholar whose competence virtually everybody respects even if they disagree with him, who also says so. And there's Price who himself disagrees with existence but accepts he's in the minority.

This insistence on peer-reviewed articles strikes me as odd. Of course such articles make excellent sources - but so do textbooks. I cannot think of any reason to insist on articles over textbooks except to exclude the various textbooks whose content we may not like.

In summary this strikes me as beating a dead horse. We've been here repeatedly, the sources have been discussed at WP:RSN and accepted, we use wording that precisely corresponds to the source, and we're backed up by WP:RS#AC. There isn't even a hint of disagreement in reliable sources with the contested statement. In short, there's nothing to discuss here any more, and repeating the old refuted claims is useless. Huon (talk) 00:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. This won't fly. We have a whole article, Historicity of Jesus, dedicated to this, with the same phrasing and references, but lots more detail. Huon doesn't mention the Ehrmann ref, very current & from an agnostic. I note Humanpublic has produced no sources of his own.... Johnbod (talk) 00:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Humanpublic is expressing a personal opinion, given that the number of sources he has produced is zero. Note that a list of 20 possible opposing "authors" was proposed on talk - archived now, and the results were laughable: some were accountants, some attorneys, etc. This repeated statement sans source is sounding like a broken record now, and from an account that does not seem to be doing anything else. I now wonder if.... You know what I mean.... Humanpublic has said this for a few months now, but given that he has zero sources, whatever he says does not matter, and for one I think he can just be ignored, for in Misplaced Pages sources talk and ... nothing else matters. So for all I care Humanpublic can say the same again and again, be just ignored and will make no difference to anything. History2007 (talk) 04:07, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

In order for this discussion to get off the ground, you have to make an effort. Little of what I said is "a personal opinion." It is a fact that there are no peer-reviewed sources. It is a fact that Grant wrote popular books. It is a fact that Ehrman's training and background is evangelical and theological, regardless of his current belief. It is a fact that being a classicist does not make you an expert on what "all scholars" believe. Neither does being a professor of religion. A pollster is an expert on what all scholars believe, and this article cites no pollsters. Huon's comment about textbooks is out to lunch. No textbooks have been cited. None of what I just said is a personal opinion. Humanpublic (talk) 16:40, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, what?! How exactly is Van Voorst's Jesus Outside the New Testament not a textbook by a respected scholar published with a reputable publisher? What, precisely, makes Sacrifice and Redemption, published by Cambridge University Press, not an academic source?

By now we've arrived at scholars being rejected because they were evangelical sometime in the past. What's next, scholars being rejected because undeniably a grand-aunt was a Christian? And I'm particularly amused by the comment how being a classicist is insufficient - I remember hearing the same argument about biblical scholars, too. Who would be in a position to know the academic consensus?

If you want to make an effort to get this discussion off the ground, I'd suggest one of two routes: Either present a reliable source that actually supports your point of view, or go to WP:RSN and make the case that Ehrman, Van Voorst et al. are not reliable sources. I'd prefer the former because firstly it would be a genuinely new approach and secondly the people at RSN have better stuff to do than to tell incredulous editors yet again that Ehrman is an acceptable source for this statement. Huon (talk) 18:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Disputing the reliability of apparently good sources is a tactic in tendentious editing. Making original and unsourced claims about the sources falls under WP:No original research as well. The current wording is fine until reliable sources are produced claiming that more than a small minority reject the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth; then things will be divided into "these scholars say virtually all scholars agree, these scholars say that many scholars disagree." Since even Robert M. Price, who denies the existence of Jesus, admits that virtually all scholars agree on Jesus's historical existence, I doubt that's going to happen.

Continuing to ignore a glaringly obvious consensus, refusing to acknowledge what everyone has to say, is also a tactic in tendentious editing (and rude at that), especially since we could probably let it be known to Helen Keller without even using a Ouija board.

All claims intended to change articles require sources, or a demonstration that current sources are unreliable. When the consensus is that the sources are reliable, and one cannot actually point to any part of WP:RS or to any RS to show how the source is unreliable, disputing the reliability of that source is nothing short of disruptive. I seriously doubt that Talk:Evolution would entertain a Young Earth Creationist's similar behavior for long, and for good reason. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:40, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

As pointed out above, this discussion has already taken place both on this very talk page and on WP:RSN. HumanPublic is in effect acting as the new user:CUSH now, not hearing WP:HEAR. Are they the same users? Who knows? For this discussion to get off the ground again, as HumanPublic wishes, it needs this. That is not my department. History2007 (talk) 18:55, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Fact: No peer-reviewed non-theological sources. Fact: Virtually sources are popular books. Fact: Being a classicist (who writes popular books) or a prof of religion does not make you an expert on what "virtually all scholars" believe. Fact: No reliable polls of what "virtually all scholars" believe have been given. Fact: The vast majority of sources saying Jesus existed have a Christian, theological connection. Humanpublic (talk) 17:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

And sources with Christian theological connections are automatically not WP:RS... I think not. ReformedArsenal (talk) 18:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I would not even bother type too long a response to Humanpublic. By and large he needs to be just ignored. He has said the same again and again. It is not even worth running to WP:AN for WP:HEAR. He is best ignored I think. History2007 (talk) 18:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say anything is "automatically" not reliable. Compare to global warming and evolution. Are both easily documented in peer-reviewed academic journals? Yep. Are there reputable polls supporting the consensus among experts? Yes. Why no such level of support here, and why the aggressive attempt to stifle discussion of it? Humanpublic (talk) 15:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Your answers are here. Good luck. History2007 (talk) 15:54, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Humanpublic... the books we are referencing are most certainly peer reviewed and are not published without extensive editorial scrutiny. ReformedArsenal (talk) 18:42, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Books for a general audience aren't peer-reviewed. Editors aren't peers. That's why there are thousands of books advancing Intelligent Design, yet no peer-reviewed molecular biology articles. Please take the time to understand the ideas you're rejecting. Humanpublic (talk) 15:35, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

James the Just is the Brother of Jesus

This has morphed into a chatroom; see WP:FORUM. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:55, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is the truth, it is said throughout the bible and most notably by Paul in Galatians 1:19. It must remain and I pity those who exist to remove the truth. If a person cannot provide evidence that says otherwise, let it be shown. If a person believes it is not exact, let it be said. Twillisjr (talk) 23:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

How many damn times does it have to be explained to you? We do not interpret primary sources! Seriously, what is your problem with that?

It's pretty much basic knowledge that the Catholic Church teaches the Perpetual virginity of Mary. See John Saward's Cradle of Redeeming Love: the Theology of the Christmas Mystery, page 18, and the Catholic Encyclopedia's entry "The Brethren of the Lord".

If the Catholic Church is one of the largest denominations in the world, and they do not think Jesus had brothers, then obviously it cannot be claimed that most Christians believe Jesus had a brother! It doesn't matter if you or I agree that Jesus had plenty of younger siblings fathered by Joseph, Catholics do not, ergo the brother belief is not an apt description of MOST Christians. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:33, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Hypocrisy does not justify anything. The fact that Christians do not follow their doctrine does not mean it does not exist. As previously stated, this excerpt comes from the words of Paul, who is a little bit more informed than all of the sources you have provided. Perhaps I should publish a book on Lulu claiming that you do not exist, and then we can debate whether or not your mother or I is the appropriate source. Twillisjr (talk) 00:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Who died and made you Pope? You pushing your personal interpretation of a primary source does not determine who is a true Christian (since your not Jesus), or does it even determine who is only a nominal Christian. Misplaced Pages takes a neutral anthropological view on the issue (generally "if they identify as Christian, they are described as some sort of Christian"), and the majority of Churches have generally held to more open standards focused on main core beliefs for determining who is or is not a Christian. Even Jerome claimed that James was not a child of Mary's. Also, actually read WP:RS, self-published sources (which includes Lulu) are not accepted as sources here. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jesus in Japan

if you find any interesting facts on this link you should put it on the Jesus article. 109.79.144.39 (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

This seems like the epitome of WP:Fringe ReformedArsenal (talk) 19:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Since it's sourced to Smithsonian mag It might be worthwhile to include as a sentence in the "Other views" section as a claim. We include Jesus in India, which historians regard as Theosophist bunk. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:36, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

If the door is opened to that Shingō, Aomori and its gift shop comes in, etc. The whole issue of travels of Jesus outside the area is handled in Lost years of Jesus so should go there, if at all. I wonder which airline he used... Anyway, as i said here a year ago the only thing left out now is to say that he danced with Bianca Jagger at Studio 54... History2007 (talk) 19:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Nah, He's currently sharing an apartment with Buddha in Japan (actually a fun and respectful series that manages to include a modern Yakuza retelling of the Samaritan woman at the well). Ian.thomson (talk) 19:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

All we need now is Bianca cast as the Samaritan woman and Jesus telling her about the lost ways of Mick... History2007 (talk) 19:57, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

"Existed" The article tries very hard to prove that

Yet it fails to mention most of those "scholars" are Christians or Christian influenced. --62.1.89.106 (talk) 19:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

IP: FAQ question 3c discusses the issue of who writes books that say otherwise. Please read that. History2007 (talk) 19:26, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Why a link to an Islam portal?

Hello everyone, I have a small question: why in the article about Jesus Christ, who is the foundations of Christianity, there is a link placed to an Islam portal? What Islam has to do with Jesus? If it is the result of political correctness and/or neutrality, which are obviously very important subjects, then please answer why there is no link to a Christian portal in the article about Muhammad? Best regards, Dennis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.153.119.41 (talk) 15:56, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

There is a link to the Islam portal in the Jesus article because in Islam, Jesus is a prophet. There is not a link to a Christianity portal in the Mohammad article because Mohammad means nothing to Christianity.Farsight001 (talk) 16:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Categories: