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Archives

Archive 1

Problems with intro/lead

This article doesn't say WHERE Genie lived. You have to read right down into the story before it is suggested that this took place in the United States or Canada.

Can someone clarify this, please? It should be right up the top of the story (remember the journalist's maxim: who, what, where, when, why and how.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 07:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Genie's location

Was looking through the history - noticed an edit was made to add that Genie is currently located in the X Center for Developmentally Disabled Adults, but it was unsourced.

I believe I heard some psychologist tracked her down there, or some other center in east L.A., but I don't remember my source.

Can this be found out?

--Vartan Simonian _ʞlɐʇ 08:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No reliable source that I know of her gives her location except to say she is living in a group home in California somewhere. It also appears to me to be an unwarranted invasion of her privacy to try to find out, (as well as original research, of course}--Slp1 (talk) 11:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I think a better question is why would you want to find out where a particular living person currently resides. Would it add some value to the encyclopedic article? Are you familiar with the controversy concerning attempts to publish the real name of Genie on Misplaced Pages? If you review the archive of this talk page, you will see that the issue has generated quite a lot of heat, but was resolved by "agreeing" to the deletion of such attempts. I am not an expert in matters of WP:BLP but my guess is that there is no benefit from attempting to publish where Genie is located since she is only notable for events occurring over 30 years ago. --Johnuniq (talk) 11:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I see your point. Probably the article is best without this unneeded information. --Vartan Simonian _ʞlɐʇ 16:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Just for the sake of curiosity, who or what decides what is "unneeded information"? If her real name has been released it should be in the article. I will adhere to whatever policy wikipedia decides but I am most curious about my first question. 162.83.149.42 (talk) 21:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Who decides that is "unneeded information"? We editors decide, with reference to the various policies here. The one that very specifically applies here is WP:BLP, but WP:NOR and WP:V come into it too, of course. In this case, this section of BLP policy about the privacy issues particularly applies. The decision was made not to include her name, since it has not been widely disseminated by reliable sources (amongst other reasons). Interestingly enough, a decision has also been made to withhold the name of the Star Wars kid, even though his name has been extensively and recently publicized (much more so than Genie's). The reasoning is similar: he is known only for one event, including the name doesn't add anything essential to the article, and of course it just prolongs the original harassment/victimization of a living person who never sought or desired the publicity.--Slp1 (talk) 21:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you're going with harassment issue and I'll agree to disagree with you on that and not press on it further. I know all about the Star Wars kid incident and name issue that arose I was just curious about the reasoning of the decision. My question was made before I read lengthy discussion in the archives. I agree with Wjhonson to be honest but the rules are rules I suppose. Thanks for your prompt answer. 162.83.149.42 (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reasonableness of your response, even if you disagree. For what it's worth, I wonder if you might find yourself very glad of the 'rules' against including such identifying information if you or someone you care about found themselves in a similar situation.Slp1 (talk) 00:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I might be, but I'd feel slightly ashamed later. It's one of those grey areas I think. 162.83.149.42 (talk) 02:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

No Slp1 it's not "original research" to find out where she lives. It might be research, but it does not need to be original. If some source states where she lives, that is source-based research, which is what we do here. It's not original. Wjhonson (talk) 20:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Please look more carefully to what I actually said: I responded to a request to "find out where she lived" as tracked down by "some psychologist" by saying that there were no reliable sources stating exactly where she lived (I researched it, yes); and that trying to "find out" otherwise would be considered original research. --Slp1 (talk) 23:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Awful picture used...

I think this picture does a huge disservice to Genie, she was a very pretty, very lively girl, who (by everyone's admission) had something very sweet and captivating about her. That "bunny walk" was from the very early stages in any way. Surely we can put up one of the many pictures of this poor, tortured child where she actually looks beautiful and hopeful. Wait I am going to change it if I can do it. 79.130.187.91 (talk) 16:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I had many other images of her to choose from when I added this pic to the article. Although I agree that there are "nicer" pics of her, I thought that any picture used to simply show her appearance wouldn't be allowed since it was an unfree image. I thought a picture displaying her "bunny walk" would be more admissable because it helps the reader's understanding of that characteristic of her. For An Angel (talk) 19:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

If you find other free images, you should definitely consider adding them to the article in another place. I agree that she should be represented in other ways, but not replacing the image. Ashleyy osaurus (talk) 19:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I replaced the image with basically the same picture but from a screen cap of the Nova DVD. It is a slightly better quality than the first one which was a screen cap from a youtube video. For An Angel (talk) 02:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not awful, don't be too critical. She still looks like a normal child. 178.94.198.70 (talk) 06:15, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Sources

Several of the sources and external links in this article are to personal websites or blogs of people who are not known experts in this field of expertise. I will be reviewing these and removing them from the article shortly. Wjhonson (talk) 20:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Photo request

I want to explain why I added the "needs-photo" paramater to the Wikiproject Biography temp. While I am aware that there is already a photo in this article, and I am NOT objecting to its' presence, it would be nice to have another photo that better displayed Genies' face, or at least, is from an actual camera, versus a movie still. Thanks. --Call me Bubba (talk) 22:37, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

See my comment above from August 29 about why I didn't chose a nicer photo. Basically it probably wouldn't have been allowed under the strict nonfree use policies on Misplaced Pages. Although in this case it may be open to interpretation. For An Angel (talk) 20:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

redirects for discussion

I've nominated the two redirects pertaining to this article again. See here. For An Angel (talk) 21:19, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Name

Um, I now that this has been discussed before but it took me only five (5) minuets to fine the subjects name. if it just takes that long then hasn't the damage already been done??? I mean lets look at the in another perspective, for arguments sake lets say some sociopath wanted to murder "Genie". If he wanted to kill her so badly (I'm not saying that anyone wants to, so be cool) then trust me he would find out her name and where she lives. And I did not have to even click on five sites to get her name, I got it by the second site. I am not trying to cause trouble (that is why I am not mentioning the name) but it seems pointless to try to protect her when that info is already out there. And I should also point out that if it is her safety we are concerned about that I am sure she is well protected in her group home.--Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 00:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

She's best known as Genie, anybody who knows her birth name is probably going to know her as well or better as Genie. No-one is going to search for Susie Shorthair (feral child). Having her real names in the page adds little value and would need to be sourced to references of impeccable reliability - in which case they should be integrated with the article. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not a question of sourcing. I believe her real name was reported in the local papers at the time she was freed. It's a question of respecting the privacy of someone who was a victim of a crime and is in no position the defend herself. Per WP:BLP we "exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability, while omitting information that is irrelevant to the subject's notability." --agr (talk) 20:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, they'd be from the 70's and unlikely to have a contemporary source. Skimming through BLP I don't see any reason to not include it if it's very well sourced but I've yet to a sufficiently good source. As far as I'm concerned, sources published in the 70's only available off-line, for a fee, discussed on websites of dubious, self-published reliability, aren't even a reason to have this conversation. The thing is, if we ever do find a source that identifies her by name and is sufficiently reliable to use, we would have a choice of removing that link because of the name, or linking to it and having it appear as a prominent link in the article. For that matter, ABCnews.com includes the last name of the family and first name of her brother. But since there's no comparable source for Genie's first name, there's no reason to discuss and we should cross that bridge when we come to it. I think that if we did have a source that's viable to cite her first name, it would be within bounds of BLP to use it. But that's a debate that is perhaps better had via e-mail. For now, I'm fine with letting the matter drop. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 22:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It's also a debate that took us months to resolve. Check the extensive talk page archive. I disagree that it would be withing the bounds of BLP to use her name if we found a reliable source for it. Most people would agree that Genie's case is a perfect example for WP:BLP#Privacy_of_names For An Angel (talk) 20:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. The extensive discussions here (in the archives), at WP:BLPN and at various redirect decisions been very strongly against inclusion of her name. This despite the fact there is one recent reliable source that actually does mention her birthname (before reverting to the use of her pseudonym). And Miagirljmw14 might want to consider the broader implications of her name being known: it isn't just that people might be able to find her (to do her harm or not), but that people who know her now, in her community, will have private information to which they have no right. The reason that the names of rape and abuse victims are not publicized these days is not really because we fear that they will be stalked etc, but because if it had happened to us or a loved one, we wouldn't want such private information about our past available to every Tom, Dick and Harriet we happen to meet at the store or the library. --Slp1 (talk) 14:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

External links

I removed the following external links for the following reasons. External links are to be kept to a minimum and these are not appropriate.

• Article on Genie - no indication that this is a reliable source. If it is a reliable source, it is sufficiently brief that it should be linked as an inline citation; WP:ELNO point 1 and WP:ELYES point 3.
• The Civilizing of Genie - the same as above; reliability is unknown, it's not lengthy so if reliable it should be integrated.
• Genie, a modern-day Wild Child - the same thing; brief, reliability is uncertain, it sources discussion groups and e-mail lists, and frankly seems to promote the website rahter than inform the page.
• A link to a May 1993 letter to the editor from Susan Curtiss discussing this case - and again, dubious reliability, and brief. If this is sourced, it should be sourced to The New York Times or ideally its reproduction in any scholarly volumes on the subject matter.
• Contradictions And Unanswered Questions In The Genie Case: A Fresh Look At The Linguistic Evidence - by: Dr Peter E Jones, Sheffield Hallam University - unreliable, self-promoting. The information itself could be valuable, but if as Dr. Jones indicates, the bits were presented in a variety of more reliable fora, then those reliable sources should be cited as inline citations. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I think at least some of these are reliable sources; others not so much.

• The Civilizing of Genie was originally published in Psychology Today in September 1981 (not the highest quality academic journal, perhaps, but a reliable source nonetheless!), and subsequently reprinted in the book "Teaching English through the Disciplines: Psychology", Loretta F. Kasper, Ed., Whittier, 1997
• Contradictions And Unanswered Questions In The Genie Case: A Fresh Look At The Linguistic Evidence - by: Dr Peter E Jones, Sheffield Hallam University This one is a copy of an article published in Language and Communication, Volume 15, Number 3, July 1995

Given that this article needs all the help it can get, I will add these two, properly accredited, back to reference section (rather than external links), so that they are easily accessible for article development in the future.--Slp1 (talk) 17:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Name again

I have twice reverted the addition of her parents' last name. This info provides no useful information to the article, and per privacy issues (esp. for Genie and her living brother), as well as the long discussions held about this topic on multiple forums, I do not support its inclusion. Per Bold, Revert, Discuss cycle I invite the editor in question to get consensus here for the addition of this name.--Slp1 (talk) 00:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

her parents' names are in the mainstream media, so there is no reason to keep it out of the article. wikipedia is not censored. plus, it makes no sense for us to use a source that blatantly says her parents name, yet we go out of our way to censor the name from the article, even though anyone who views the source will see their name. again, wikipedia is not censored, so i have no idea why you've reverted this twice. i don't believe that policy backs you on this one. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4804490 http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4873347&page=1 http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/651677052.html?dids=651677052:651677052&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&date=Mar+18%2C+1979&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Retarded+Girl+Used+for+Profit%2C+Suit+Alleges&pqatl=google http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Genie_Wiley http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/misc/wild-child.html Theserialcomma (talk) 02:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

and you said it "provides no useful information" to the article. but the article has their first names. how is that useful information for protecting their privacy? why not just call them Parent X and Parent Y? or how about we just stick to what the sources say, and not censor wikipedia. it's not like i'm trying to expose genie's real name; it just looks awkward and censored that her parents' first names are only shown. that's what is not useful. Theserialcomma (talk) 03:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is indeed not censored does but neither I nor anybody else is arguing that the name is offensive or objectionable as described by that policy. I am stating that per our WP:BLP policy, since the addition of the names add nothing to the article, they should not be included because they do significantly increase the likelihood that living survivors of abuse and their family members will be identified. The name of this family have been carefully obscured by virtually all media and scholarly sources for the last 40 years. One mention in one reliable source in the last 30 years (the others you provide are either/or not reliable sources, behind a pay wall, or don't mention the last name at all) is not enough to change this. I certainly understand that you find it awkward with the first names, and support the removal of their first names too, if you think that would help. In fact I'll do it straightaway.

One thing you might want to look at is the archives of the Star Wars kid. The name of this teenager was published much, much more widely than in this case, and still the consensus (which included many very experienced WP editors etc) has been not to use his real name. Nevertheless, as here, articles listed as references do contain the name; this was the compromise agreed there, and that we also accepted here.--Slp1 (talk) 11:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. There are very serious privacy issues at stake here, and this is recognized in most of the published material about Genie, which tends to avoid using her real name. An organization as concerned as we are about protecting privacy rights should go out of its way to respect this consensus of silence. For the record, it took me some time to see it like that, as there obviously have been various sources that gave her name. However, the spirit of WP:BLP demands that we err on the side of caution when living people are concerned.--Cúchullain /c 14:13, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

so we agree not to use genie's real name, whatever it might be. except we are talking about her parents. and the source as to her parents' first name http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4804490 http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4873347&page=1, blatantly say her parents' first and last names. what are we protecting here? there is no guarantee that genie's real name is the same as her parents' names, and the source says her parents' names anyway. this is foolish. Theserialcomma (talk) 22:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

• i support the removal of the parents' real first names if we cannot agree to trust abc news's decision to publish the first and last names. it should be full name or nothing at all. it doesn't read to me as encyclopedic just to list a first name, so nothing is better. Theserialcomma (talk) 22:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not a matter of agreeing with ABC's decision, it's a matter of weighing that decision against the decisions of all those other sources that did not publish the names in order to protect Genie's privacy. What do the other sources do? At any rate identifying the parents makes it easier to identify Genie and her brother, so if we are erring on the side of caution until we can sort it out we should leave the names out.--Cúchullain /c 00:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

this is silly. the source says her parents' full names. why are we censoring what is obviously available in the source? we should either reject the source, remove any reference to the parents' real names (even if it's just their first names), or stay faithful to the source we are using. it's patently superficial to show her parents' first names, cited to an abcnews source, and when you click the source, it says their full names. Theserialcomma (talk) 19:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It's exactly the same solution that was arrived at with the Star wars kid; I don't see either case as either silly or censoring, but following the letter and spirit of BLP and our moral obligations to some fragile human beings. But anyway, at your suggestion I removed the first names of the parents a few days ago, and would be happy to remove the newspaper article too and replace it with a better source if that is really what is desired.--Slp1 (talk) 19:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Name

See this article in the L.A. Times giving again her full real name, and dated in 1994. Wjhonson (talk) 10:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The "Genie team"

The article mentions a "Genie team" a few times but never says what it was or who was a part of it. Could someone add an explanation of it? Gatorgirl7563 (talk) 01:38, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Second Foster Home With The Riglers 87.102.17.197 (talk) 22:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE put that Genie may not have actually been knowingly saying this? All we know is that Marilyn Rigler interpreted her words as "Potty chair", repeated this to Genie for confirmation, and it is very possible that Genie may have become fixated on the phrase, as children acquiring their first language tend to. The passage suggests that Genie said "potty chair" of her own accord, but hearing Marilyn Rigler repeat it may have encouraged her to feel that it was the right phrase to say, and so she repeats it, she may not have fully understood the implications and what she was saying. I will agree, it is also equally as possible that she DID understand, but we need to put this in.

Thanks, 87.102.17.197 (talk) 22:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Continued incontinence and masturbation

There are multiple external sources which state the Genie often masturbated and that she continues to be more or less completely incontinent to date. Why is no mention made of it here?KlappCK (talk) 19:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Please do not post claims about "multiple external sources" without providing at least one reliable source, particularly on a WP:BLP. There would need to be an encyclopedic reason to add information to any article. Johnuniq (talk) 23:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I added content based on this source, page 312, regarding her frequent masturbation. Even without Genie being named, is this an appropriate addition? Ankh.Morpork 20:02, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

New section?

The article, as it stands now, seems to have little more than a history of the traumatic events that she went through. Isn't there more to say about Genie? For example, what the scientists and doctors learned from her regarding the nature of language aquisition and why (The Forbidden Experiment is not even mentioned). The intro says, " Psychologists, linguists and other scientists exhibited great interest in the case due to its perceived ability to reveal insights into the development of language and linguistic critical periods." But that subject is not mentioned again in the rest of the article. Shouldn't this be a big part of Genie's story?— Preceding unsigned comment added by For An Angel (talk • contribs) 2011-06-01T21:07:54 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, there is an awful lot missing from this article if only someone had the time or the energy to expand it. Maybe one of these days I will do it, but I'd rather work with others if they are interested. I have very little free time for WP these days! --Slp1 (talk) 13:37, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Assumed Settlement.

I've pulled this inaccurate sentence at the end of the article. "In California, lawsuits are typically dismissed with prejudice in connection with settlement agreements. "

This is simply not true, a settlement is an agreement of the parties where the plaintiff agrees to pull the case, the court is typically uninvolved in settlement discussions. A claim that is dismissed with prejudice likely did not have enough evidence to lead a jury to believe the claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zendu (talk • contribs) 21:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Article title

Genie (feral child) just doesn't seem quite right to me. Upon looking at Category:Feral children, the only other person there who even comes close to resembling Genie is Kaspar Hauser (who I'd suggest really doesn't fit either). "Feral" would imply that someone grew up in the wild, or at least exclusively with some animals besides humans. For instance, Oxana Malaya is quite rightly described as a feral child, as is Marcos Rodríguez Pantoja; Genie doesn't fit this description at all. Although her upbringing was certainly inhumane and horrific, it was entirely within the confines of a room in her father's house. If I had any idea what a better title would be, I'd say what that was, but I really don't know what would fit; I just know that the current title doesn't seem particularly accurate. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:43, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Genie (child). Simple, and accurate. Genie can not be used because of the primary topic redirect to Jinn. Apteva (talk) 06:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Apteva, Genie (child) is a better choice (per WP:COMMONNAME). meshach (talk) 07:04, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

And now I'm wondering why I didn't see it all along... unless there are objections in the next few days, I'll move it there. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:42, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't really like the (child) option. During the period for which we have most of the information on her, she was actually a teenager. On top of the accuracy problem, people with disabilities are often infantilized -and one could argue that Genie herself was, in the whole design and expectations of the studies made of her- and I don't think WP should perpetuate this approach. I realize that "feral child" and "wild child" both contain word "child", but they do have a different meaning as pairs of words. I'd rather look at how the most recent sources describe her: I suspect that we will find that "feral child" or "wild child" are used frequently, and that the terms have come to mean something other than "raised in the wild". Looking at the reliable sources seem to be how we are supposed to determine these things based on WP:ARTICLETITLE. I can do some sort of survey at some point, but can't do it straightaway. Slp1 (talk) 15:26, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hence the waiting period... yeah, this is one of those instances where, in the absence of a good descriptive word, I think we're just going to have to make do with an imperfect title. Both "feral child" and "wild child" are the most commonly used (did a quick survey myself, though I can certainly do a more detailed one after Christmas), but neither one really paints a particularly accurate picture. If we have to choose between the two, the current one makes more sense. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:44, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I get five times as many pages using wild and genie than feral and genie, but ten times as many using genie and child (twice as many as wild). In google books there are 2,330 with genie feral child, 6,460 with genie wild child, and 612,000 with genie child. In google news it is 1 for genie feral child (if child is removed it drops to 0), 8 for genie wild child, and 2,210 for genie child. I would say child is the most common name. Apteva (talk) 19:11, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that your searches will be picking up all sorts of other uses of "Genie" - the Jinn, the character in the Aladdin Disney movie, the ones in Dungeons and Dragons, and many others from this (unexhaustive) list . We have to find instances of this Genie and see how she is referred to. Googlesearches of this sort are pretty much useless for determining article titles. Added to which, as I pointed out, the term just isn't accurate. Slp1 (talk) 20:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Genie was a child when most of the notability occurred. Sunjit Kumar of Fiji (the "chicken boy") is apparently considered a feral child, though he was raised, as far as can be told, with domestic chickens. So I don't find "feral child" a totally difficult disambiguator. "Neglected child" might be better. Rich Farmbrough, 00:30, 26 December 2012 (UTC).

I also don't have a problem with child, for the reasons you've elucidated, but Sunjit Kumar, like Oxana Malaya and Marcos Rodríguez Pantoja, spent his formative years with animals; this is what feral means. While Genie's father literally acted like an animal (to say figuratively would be insulting to animals), Genie didn't grow up in the wild. Again, there's no real good word to describe the conditions under which she spent her first 13 years and 7 months of life, so it's pretty much a question of which title is the least worst. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Genie's drawings

Her primitive drawing of a human figure contrasted with her more sophisticated animal drawings is quite illuminative. Is it possible to include them in the article? Ankh.Morpork 19:13, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Here's a link for people who don't have JSTOR . I think the pictures would have copyright problems attached to them. The book review might well be useful, though. Goldin-Meadow is a big name in the field. Slp1 (talk) 20:25, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a ton for bringing up the book review, I can see some potential for it. As to the drawings; yeah, I don't think they'd meet fair use, but they're actually very helpful for me personally. They give me some proof of her spatial and fine motor coordination, and it's a bit of a fire under me to keep moving and chugging on. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:50, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I have emailed the AAAS requesting permission of use. Fingers crossed. Ankh.Morpork 01:54, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch; one of the problems with this article is that, by the nature of the subject, there really aren't many good options for images. I have OTRS access, so if they send something through OTRS I can verify it myself. Not sure how it will turn out, but I suppose we'll find out soon enough. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:25, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Sources in a BLP etc

I have just hidden a couple of sections per BLP as I am uncomfortable with the current sourcing.

• As a self-published source, Rigler's letter to the editor should not be used a source for any facts, most especially about a BLP. I haven't checked fully but a quick look in this article show that in other cases it is being used to support other more reliable sources, and as a source for Rigler's opinion, which are both fine in my view. Let's find other reliable sources about the callouses and harnesses; if it is significant per Undue, we will be able to find them.
• I have also hidden the information about masturbation; as a BLP, I think we need the solidest possible sources for this information and a clear consensus about how this is going to be phrased; two likely reliable sources have been given; can the quotes from those books be given so that we can nail down exactly what they say, and that we can decide what, if anything, should be included on this subject? I should say that I've read widely about this person, and this information is not generally included in what I've seen. We need to decide what is right per WP:UNDUEWEIGHT and WP:BLP. Not saying it shouldn't be included. Just that it needs some discussion all. --Slp1 (talk) 19:36, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I can only address the first part, not having the book being cited in the second. Rigler's letter is fine for the response to Rymer's book, for sure, because that is the response, but I'd agree it shouldn't be used for anything beyond what you say above. The other information that was hidden and sourced to that is all in Rymer's book, which seems to be regarded as an accurate account of Genie's progress (if not necessarily some of the behind-the-scenes business); I wouldn't be surprised if someone just accidentally copied the wrong reference for something. I'll hold off on doing anything until there are other comments, though. Also, is there some way we can comment out the second part without making the references go haywire? Thanks for fixing that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:44, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

If there is this same information in Rymer, then that's fine. All it needs for this to be BLP compliant is for the citation to Rymer to be added. I don't have the book at present, so perhaps you could add it. Slp1 (talk) 20:52, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I thought about part 2, and while again I don't have the book I really don't see what value it has. A lot of people masturbate at 13 years old, that's not really a particularly notable trait. It does get mentioned in a lot of sources, but it's not really an atypical thing, it's only the settings which would be considered abnormal. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:00, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

"A lot of people masturbate at 13 years old"... No particular editor (Blade) should feel this is aimed particularly at him or her (Blade), but I think it's appropriate to remind everyone (Blade) that personal experience is a form of OR. To support such a statement someone (Blade) will need to gain consensus in an appropriate forum -- maybe SPI? (SPI = Sexual practices Inquiries) EEng (talk) 03:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not like I made this up out of thin air; any basic perusing of the subject would indicate that's certainly well within the typical time for those who engage in it to start. Fact-checked my old abnormal psych book just to make sure, though. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

<EEng looks intently at Blade of the Northern Lights for some seconds, narrowing his eyes to a squint as if trying to discern what is in Blade's mind. But Blade remains poker-faced -- he is either a master of self-containment, or utterly clueless. Finally...> Blade, you do realize my post was merely a mock insult, right? EEng (talk) 04:31, 26 December 2012 (UTC) P.S. But now that you mention it, if it's so typical then why consult an abnormal psych book? Huh? HUH? Answer me that, OK?!

Heh... I kinda thought so, but I wasn't sure; it's obvious now that you say it. I went with my abnormal psych book just so I wouldn't glut my browser history for the future, if you catch my drift (you seem to still have your wits about you, I have no reason to assume otherwise). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:41, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I added the content based on this source, page 312, regarding her frequent masturbation. The way it is described seems atypical but I would understand if such content was considered unnecessary. Ankh.Morpork 21:00, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

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