Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by RolandR (talk | contribs) at 13:31, 2 January 2013 (→Users certifying the basis for this dispute: Changing indenting to preserve consecutive numbering). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

To remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 17:53, 19 November 2012 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 11:13, 27 December 2024 (UTC).

• Darkstar1st (talk · contribs · logs)

Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them. All signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

This editor continually advocates changes to articles to support his view that nazism and fascism are forms of socialism and continues to argue for them, setting up multiple discussion threads, edit-warring and arguing long after other editors have shown no support for them. Often these discussions begin, "Is x a reliable source"?

Desired outcome

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

This editor should drop discussions when they appear to have no prospect of success. Also, when he proposes changes to articles, he should be clear on what they are, not begin with vague questions, and should not set up multiple discussion threads.

Description

{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.}

This editor has persisted in WP:IDHT over a range of articles related to nazism, fascism and socialism.

Evidence of disputed behavior

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

Darkstar1st added to Nazism, without a source, "In 1936 price and wage controls were introduced, soon after came shortages and rationing." (07:45, 7 November 2012) Over the next several days, his edits were reverted by myself, RolandR, RJFF, DD2K, Kierzek, and Escape Orbit. Darkstar1st was then blocked 48 hours for edit-warring. He then opened a discussion thread Talk:Nazism#Rationing and shortages, saying, "I would like to includes a few words about such in the economics section, without objection. (09:36, 10 November 2012) The talk page discussion as of 15:12, 19 November 2012 can be found here. Here other editors (Snowded, Dolescum, Bryon Morrigan) opposed his edit. Yet Darkstar1st set up numerous discussion threads and is still arguing his point 12 days after his initial edit.

After a trolling IP began a discussion thread, Talk:Socialism#National Socialism should be included here (03:37, 13 September 2012), Darkstar1st argued in its favor for 5 days despite opposition from R-41, AnieHall and others. (Talk page as of 05:43, 15 November 2012 here.) He argued at length, in the face of all of the evidence, that an ancient text mentioned the word "socialist", and refused to recognise that, as shown by uploaded screenprints of the text in question and of the Oxford English Dictionary, the word used was "scholist", and that this is a recognised English word. This tediously tendentious behaviour, and his characteristic WP:IDHT, wasted many hours work of several editors, and it is the same behaviour which he is now displaying in Talk:Nazism.

Darkstar1st has also tenaciously argued this point, despite opposition, at Talk:National Socialism (disambiguation), Talk:State socialism, Talk:State Socialism (Germany) and various other articles and notice boards.

Applicable policies and guidelines

{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}

Failure or refusal to "get the point": "In some cases, editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has decided that moving on to other topics would be more productive. Such behavior is disruptive to Misplaced Pages."

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

1. "...Neither the IP nor yourself have brought any sources, yet continue to argue your views which is trolling and stops editors from spending their time productively." The Four Deuces (TFD) 03:05, 15 September 2012
2. "Time wasting Darkstar1st, you are in a minority of one on this and you are either refusing to, or are incapable of understanding the points which are being put to you. If you don't stop then I think the only option left is to seek a topic ban." Snowded 06:59, 12 November 2012
3. "And by now this has become tediously tendentious, and classic IDHT behaviour. Some 5000 words over the past three days, with one editor battling against at least seven others who are telling him the same thing. This has to stop." RolandR 19:02, 12 November 2012

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

1. TFD (talk) 17:55, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
2. RolandR (talk) 18:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

   While this discussion is still open, and without responding (except for continuing a content dispute in the wrong section below), Darkstar has continued with this disruptive behaviour at Talk:Socialism, where he again proposes edits based on selective misreading and misrepresentation of sources, while accusing other editors of being "confused" and implying that they are lying. This pattern of editing has gone way beyond disruptively tendentious, and has taken on the appearance of deliberate trolling. My patience, and assumption of good faith, are exhausted, and I now believe that he needs a topic ban from all politics articles. He is simply causing too many other editors to waste too much time, and his presence on those articles has become a net negative.RolandR (talk) 17:54, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

3. Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 18:50, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
4. ----Snowded 03:11, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
5. Editor needs a topic ban. Dave Dial (talk) 18:08, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

1. --R-41 (talk) 22:28, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
2. I concur. The editor in question needs to reflect on the writings and concerns put forth above. Continuing a disruptive pattern of editing will do no one, nor the project, any good. Kierzek (talk) 22:13, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

here is an example of the current edit i proposed in talk and quotes from the RS i presented, none of which have been challenged:

the USSR was the first socialist state and the USSR was the first socialist society.

• The First Socialist Society: A History of the Soviet Union from Within
• For the first time in the history of mankind a socialist society(USSR) was created.
• The Soviet Union was the first state to be based on Marxist socialism
• Russia was not just another country, it was the world's first workers state and history's first socialist society
• the establishment of the first socialist state in russia in 1917
• Soviet...the first socialist society.
• With their victory over the White Russians in 1920, Soviet leaders now could turn for the first time to the challenging task of building the first socialist society in a world dominated by their capitalist enemies.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Darkstar1st (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

I have not been closely involved with all of Darkstar1st's editing episodes, but I have examined a problematic editing style by him, and this is my conclusion as well as my proposals on how it should be responded to.

Darkstar1st evidently has strongly anti-socialist political views, he associates all of socialism with totalitarianism, viewing Marxism-Leninism that he refers to in the generic term of "communism", as well as fascism as the major manifestations of what socialism is. Darkstar1st edits articles to promote this conception of socialism as being totalitarian. The most important evidence I can provide of this is a cynical remark recently made by Darkstar1st where he said "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was most certainly socialist and a shining example of the ideology in action." On his user page he identifies himself as an opponent of communism, and this taken with consideration to his description of the Soviet Union as "a shining example" of socialism "in action", he is clearly anti-socialist. His intentions on Misplaced Pages with regards to material related to socialism, is to present socialism as a whole as totalitarian and linked with Marxism-Leninism and fascism. This completely disregards socialists who rejected totalitarianism. One of the most well-known anti-totalitarian socialists being the author of the famous anti-totalitarian novel, 1984, George Orwell.

Darkstar1st puts original research forward repeatedly, and engages in tenacious long disputes when he has zero or next to no consensus in favour of his proposals.

If he continues to tenaciously engage in inserting intentionally anti-socialist POV material in articles, I believe a warning of a topic ban for the article Socialism and all related articles are principally topics involving socialism, communism, and fascism should be considered on the basis of tenacious editing and POV-pushing, should it continue. If he ceases this disruptive tenacious and POV-pushing behaviour, the warning and threat of imposing such a topic ban can be removed, if he continues in spite of the warning, the topic ban should be implemented.

If he wishes to engage in productive editing and discussion, I recommend, for his own benefit and for others, of taking some time to improve his knowledge on socialism prior to continuing editing, that he consider reading scholarly works on socialism by authors who are not anti-socialist. Particularly books that speak of the motivations of socialists. For instance I would advise that he read about the original socialists, called utopian socialism who advocated a decentralized form of socialism far different from the totalitarian Soviet Union; about social democracy that promotes its goals through parliamentary democratic means; as well as material on collectivist anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism that were socialist movements that completely rejected the state altogether and are staunchly anti-totalitarian. By reading and learning about such movements, Darkstar1st may from his own learning dispense with his inaccurate view of socialism being inherently totalitarian.--R-41 (talk) 22:40, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• soviet union was a constitutionally socialist state, a little confused how me stating that fact has offended anyone?
• The his user page he identifies himself as an opponent of communism consists of a photo of me in front of the House of Terror. the description, where facist and later the "liberating" Communist regimes interrogated, tortured and killed people. is quite accurate. People's Republic of Hungary official state name of Hungary from 1949 to 1989 during its Communist period under the guidance of the Soviet Union.
• associates all of socialism with totalitarianism i actually think socialism would be the ideal form of government for those freely associated, and equally terrifying for those not. judging from the talk, even rs have trouble agreeing on the very definition. to me it is as simple as being social, almost like a "howdy". no rational person would walk past a starving child and not offer whatever food he had, or a dry place to sleep, or a skill, maybe fishing. social may even be the wrong word, perhaps "human" would better describe the basic human needs addressed by such. my goal editing these articles is to bring forth rs who experienced the actual period, to balance the overwhelming amount of rs for these articles who did not. having lived in a former communist country for years, i have a unique perspective most do not. most of my inspiration is from conversations with old residents of Budapest who lived thru WW2 and what followed. much of history still walks the streets here, like László Csizsik-Csatáry did only months ago. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:08, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

In the view of what users have said below, and above, I am now amending my proposal as per the comment below by Dave Dial, for what should be done in one respect that will be balanced in both placing responsibility on Darkstar1st for his actions and firmly seal a resolution to this. Darkstar1st should receive one, and only one final chance to desist from tenacious editing, and should he fail to do so, he will face topic bans. This means that when Misplaced Pages community support does not endorse his views, as represented by a strong majority of people opposed (let's put it at the least of 75%) after prolonged conversation (let's put that at one week) that should he continue to push his view against community consensus, that that will be the violation of his final chance and that a topic ban will be initiated the topics of socialism, communism, fascism, and topics involving a direct association with these three main topics. This will be his one chance alone to change his editing behaviour, as Misplaced Pages community patience has expired over his tenacious editing, and he will ultimately be responsible for either acting on the advice here, or failing to do so and facing topic ban on the topics mentioned above.--R-41 (talk) 08:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. concur '''SPECIFICO''' (talk) 18:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
2. Needs to be worded more strongly. User takes up far too much time of too many editors. Needs topic ban. Dave Dial (talk) 18:11, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Outside view by Collect

That an editor properly uses article talk pages is not a valid basis for an RfC/U. In the case at hand, the editor sought to provide sourcing for the editos he desired, which is precisely what Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines call for. inter alia show, in fact, that the Nazis instituted wage and prce controls. Especially in the wake of wage controls, wage cuts and freezes, as well as a hike in work hours and intensified demands on the work force, a “mood” had now taken hold in the factories, characterized by SOPADE editors in September 1937 as a “general discontent among the workers.” For one example of "shortages" see The Reichswerke were the direct beneficiary of the controls over investment, at the expense of the private steel users (particularly the car manufacturers, who complained vigorously of the shortages of sheet steel).

An RfC/U is precisely the wrong place to continue a content dispute - especially when the key dispute is ... reasonably disputed. Go after folks who make totally unsupportable claims - but this is not the example to use. Those being complainants above are substantially invested in the one content dispute, and seeking to ban "the other side" in a content dispute is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. The real problem is an apparent dislike of reliable sources which contradict what the "consensus" of four editors knows to be the truth. Again RFC/U is the wrong place for such behaviour.

Users endorsing this summary

1. Collect (talk) 13:57, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
2. I don't even see a specific policy related behavioral complaint. I'm not involved/knowledgeable on this, but to me it looks like Darkstar is trying to put in a well and heavily sourced point, and the main "complaint" seems to be "even though we outnumber Darkstar, they persist". That's not certainly not "misbehavior", it appears to be very proper behavior; and the policy violation (if it has significant coverage in sources in which case wp:npov / wp:weight dictates inclusion) would be by those trying to keep it out. Possibly a boomerang is in order. North8000 (talk) 21:58, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

   Collect is right that "An RfC/U is precisely the wrong place to continue a content dispute". Darkstar1st's edit was reversed by myself, RolandR, RJFF, DD2K, Kierzek, and Escape Orbit. Darkstar1st was then blocked 48 hours for edit-warring. It may be that Darkstarist's edit represented the WP:TRUTH, but that is no excuse for disruptive editing. TFD (talk) 07:37, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

3. Nyttend (talk) 13:09, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Misuse of Checkuser

Not content with simply having an RfC/U, one editor contacted a checkuser to pursue a ludicrous assertion that Darkstar1st was a sock puppet. ... It urns out that Budapest is not near Nashville TN! "Fishing expeditions" during an RfC/U seem to indicate an agendum beyonf "editor behaviour" is present. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:05, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Users endorsing this note

1. Collect (talk) 13:05, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Darkstar1st has told us that he lives in Nashville but is residing in Hungary. TFD (talk) 07:45, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.