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29 January 2013

Da-Wen Sun

Da-Wen Sun (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

As Orangemike's advice, I have carefully removed any promotion quotes. I believe the page is no longer promotional. However it was deleted unilaterally by Sandstein. Then Graeme Bartlett restored it, but it was deleted again by Sandstein. I believe the idea here is to improve Misplaced Pages, not to delete things that one does not like. By looking at the history, for some reasons, it seems that Sandstein has a strong view against the page although the page has been edited by many experienced Wiki Editors in the past few years Mayonglan (talk) 13:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review DGG ( talk ) 18:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• Restore and edit further. Examining the article, at this point it is not a G11, though there remains promotional content: the lists of conference keynotes is usually so considered, and so are inclusion of minor awards, including awards given by one's own university). But these can easily be removed by ordinary editing and I will do so after the article is restored. I also object to Sandstein's most recent deletion as wheel-warring. Graeme Bartlett had the right to reverse a deletion, though normally we ask first, but when an admin action is reverted, rightly or wrongly, for the original admin to revert that back to their own state is unambiguous wheel-warring. I do not think a single case is grounds for de-sysop, bur unless Sandstein will himself revert his improper actions, it should probably be discussed at a suitable admin board. (That the action seems to be contradicted by the plain facts makes it a little worse, but wheel-warring is never permitted and I would say just the same were this in fact a highly and unfixable promotional article) . . DGG ( talk ) 18:57, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• I object to the contention that I was wheel-warring. Per WP:WW, that only applies to actions "you know that another administrator opposes". I undid Graeme Bartlett's out-of-process undeletion only after he did not reply to my messages on his talk page, in which I sought to discuss the issue with him, for three days, while he was otherwise editing actively. Two days before I undid his restoration, I wrote to him: "Because you have not replied to my message, but have edited in the interim, I assume that you do not object to my re-deleting and re-salting the page". Not replying to this for two days, while otherwise editing normally, must in good faith be construed – at least – as a lack of opposition, but such opposition would be required for the reversal to constitute wheel-warring. See .  Sandstein  19:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Mayongian did not notify the deleting admin, which he should have done; I have now notified him,and also GB.. DGG ( talk ) 19:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• I maintain that my WP:CSD#G11 speedy deletion was valid. G11 applies to "pages that are exclusively promotional, and would need to be fundamentally rewritten". I contend that this applies to the article at issue. It is limited to fawningly listing and highlighting the subject's accomplishments in a manner that one would expect in a CV. Such CVs and lists of accomplishments are how academics promote themselves. The article is therefore exclusively promotional. Furthermore, the content was written by accounts such as the nominator, Mayonglan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), that are either single-purpose accounts or accounts whose editing pattern suggests that they likely have a close affiliation with the subject. That makes the content profoundly suspect, even to the extent it may superficially appear salvageable, as we would need an editor without a possible conflict of interest to double-check each sentence to verify that it is true and neutrally worded – in effect, rewriting the article. For these reasons, the article also meets the requirement that it would need to be fundamentally rewritten.

  In brief, this is an example of what we used to call vanispamcruftisement, although admittedly one of the less obvious and glaring examples, and such practices should be repressed rather than supported by administrators.  Sandstein  19:40, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Graeme Barlett's unilateral undeletion was discourteous but it might have been better if Sandstein had brought his protest to DRV rather than unilaterally undoing the unilateral undeletion.  I don't think there's any benefit in wrangling over whether there has been a technical violation of WP:WW, since I don't think this case belongs in front of Arbcom, but, trouts all round.

  Do we need a biography of this person?  My immediate sniff-test says, no.  Despite the long and superficially impressive list of sources in the deleted article, we're missing basic biographical facts.  Properly-written biographies begin with some variant of "<Name> (born on <date> in <place>) is a <nationality> <profession>" and go on to explain why we have an article (i.e. an explanation of the chap's notability).  In this case we don't even seem to have reliable third party sources for such basic biographical information as his date of birth.  What we do seem to have is a laundry list of accomplishments, cobbled together from sources that aren't independent plus sources that are independent but aren't about Professor Sun.  I see no hint that anyone's ever disagreed with him at all and no hint that he's ever done anything controversial.

  Still, we can't sustain a speedy deletion in the circumstances.  Speedies are for when it's clear-cut, and I see good faith disagreement.  We have to send it to AfD.  But I wouldn't expect it to survive AfD in its current form.—S Marshall T/C 19:47, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• From what I understand, I could not have brought a unilateral restoration to deletion review, because this case is not listed in WP:DRVPURPOSE. It would rather have been incumbent on Graeme Bartlett to bring my original deletion (or re-deletion) here.  Sandstein  19:59, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Category:Native American actors who performed in a Native American language

Category:Native American actors who performed in a Native American language (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

(No one bothered to notify me of the discussion or nomination)

This is a very important category w/ respect to Native American languages as it shows their continued use. It is therefore a valid category for both linguistic as well as cultural purposes. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 10:33, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• At the CfD, Johnpacklambert's argument was that this category is inconsistent with the category structure elsewhere in the wiki. In other words, we don't have Category:French actors who performed in French or Category:Swedish actors who performed in Swedish. Or, perhaps more relevantly, we don't have Category:Jewish actors who performed in Yiddish. This argument seems to have persuaded the closer. The other participant in the debate, Peterkingiron, made a point about "a significant characteristic", which I found a little harder to understand and it does not seem to have persuaded the closer in any case.

  Can DRV sustain this close? There's a real debate to be had about that because it's not obvious that the close is correct. We don't delete content because other parallel content doesn't exist; that's an argument in the form of WP:OCE and DRV does not give weight to argument in that form. (Arguably it is important that categories are consistent. I can understand and sympathise with the reasoning behind Johnpacklambert's point. But there is no weight of policy or guideline to support it.) As far as I can see, the guidelines governing this content are WP:COP and WP:OCAT and I can find nothing that would unambiguously preclude this category in either of them.

  If there's no basis in policy or guideline for the close, then is there at least a consensus to support it? Here I think the closer is probably on firmer ground. The discussion consisted of three opinion statements. Two of them agreed. The one dissenting opinion raised some questions, but the dissenter did not return to answer them. It's not exactly a strong consensus, and in some venues the discussion would have been relisted, but CfD is poorly-attended and I think that's probably as much input from the community as we can reasonably expect.

  Personally I might have gone with "no consensus", but I also think that close might have been within discretion on the basis of consensus if not policy.—S Marshall T/C 12:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment we don't even have Category:French-language actors or Category:Chinese-language actors. We do not anywhere categorize actors by their language of performance in any way. Language is not a way we categorize actors at all. I think it is more than enough to categorize Native American actors. The next logical division would be by group. Anyway since Navajo, Cherokee, Lenape, Dakota and Salish are all mutually uninteligible the resulting group would not even be able to communicate with eachother in the languages mentioned, so it would hardly be a unified group.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:48, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• comment Why is language not a suitable way to characterize actors? Surely the language they perform in is much more closely related to their notability than their nationality? It is also something that can easily and unambiguously be determined --keeping in mind that they might perform in several. Perhaps we don't make those categories because it is 95% of the time the same as their nationality, but that is not always the case. I assume most Native American actors perform in English (or Spanish or French or Portuguese, depending on what is the dominant language in their area); the ones who perform in their own language (or conceivable even other Native American languages) would be a small minority (actually two minorities, those who perform only in their own language, and those who perform in both.) It is reasonable that people should have a way of finding the bios. This would certainly apply to the Jewish example--it matters whether someone of this group performs in English or French or Russian or German; it also matters whether they perform in Yiddish or Ladino (most but not all who have performed in those languages will also have performed in a majority language-- and there's the added possibility of Hebrew, which depending on places and time is a minority or majority language) This is always very prominently mentioned in published work about them when its other than the expected language of the country they live in.

Whether we go further into the individual Native American language would depend on the number of people. That's not a valid objection. (And I note the same argument will apply to writers; singers often perform in multiple languages, including often some they do not actually know, so that's a somewhat different problem.) What can be more basic to any creative professional than the medium they use to practice their profession? DGG ( talk ) 18:47, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• • Language is a horrible idea because many actors have performed in many languages. Since actors just play parts performing in a language does not actually required knowong the language.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:51, 29 January 2013 (UTC)