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User:Cool Cat's disruption of Kurdish categorization efforts

Minutes after I add Category:Kurdish inhabited region to a half dozen articles , User:Cool Cat nominates the category for deletion.

This is confusing, because Cool Cat contacted me via IRC to get me to create just such a category. Unless I'm misrembering (I _am_ getting old, you know ;-) this. --Uncle Ed 15:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Really? It seems that his objection is not in the category's existence but in its use. Thanks! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 8#Category:Kurdish inhabited region

User:Cool Cat has a history of #POV editing, and has been enjoined from disruptively editing articles relating to Turkey or the Kurds.

He has vociferously sought the deletion of all categories related to Kurds:

Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 January 17#Category:Kurdistan
Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 March 3#Category:Kurdistan

plus the current votes:

Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 April 30#Category:Kurdish provinces
Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 6#Category:Kurdish cities

During the second CFD for Category:Kurdistan he stated: I dont care about this vote at all. I have no reason to keep nonsense like this on wikipedia, I will eventualy get it deleted, watch me.

Category:Kurdish inhabited region was created by User:Ed Poor as part of discussion on Category talk:Kurdistan where User:Cool Cat has been adamantly opposed to all efforts to establish consensus on usage of this category. User:Francs2000, whom User:Cool Cat asked to comment, ended up telling him that you need to change your attitude.

I agree, he needs to change his attitude. --Moby 10:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I do agree entirely with Moby's summary. Cool Cat's disruptions do it hard to write articles about anythings related to Kurds. And it is indeed not an extenuating circumstance that user themselve stated, as quoted above, that they intended to sabotage the Category:Kurdistan, as it during the debate for its deletion was clear that it would stay. I hope some action will be taken, since the alternative seems to be continuing of disruptive edit wars. Bertilvidet 13:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The ArbCom verdict which you've posted above says that he should be blocked for up to 3 days if he engages edits disruptively in Kurdish related areas. We've got several people saying he has done so, therefore I block 2 days. -lethe 13:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify my position here, Cool Cat invited me into the discussion claiming that he was having POV issues with Kurdistan related articles, implying that he had received death threats from other users as a result of the discussion getting heated (see here). I got involved and made some progress with the other users in getting some agreement over the inclusion of Category:Kurdistan in articles, and this I believe has led to some of the sub-categories such as those listed above being created. I have since stepped back a bit due largely to real life events. I will say that although Cool Cat had some valid points in his arguements against the inclusion of material in articles about the disputed region, the way he went about making his point was unnecessarily aggressive, in my opinion. I also stand by telling him that he needs to change his opinion, after he stated (and I paraphrase) that he would be unable to negotiate a consensus on certain subject areas. -- Francs2000 14:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears to me that the comments you're referring to as death threats were targeting you (for reasons I have no clue about) and had nothing to do with User:Cool Cat or anyone else involved in the Kurdish categorization discussions; I certainly made no such threats. And thanks for your comment! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I've had enough of this. As Cool Cat's mentor I'm banning him from editing articles, templates and categories related to the kurds. He may still edit related discussion pages. This ban is initially to run for one week, to be made permanent subject to the agreement of the other two mentors. --Tony Sidaway 05:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The ban includes creation or nomination for deletion. See the announcement on WP:AN. --Tony Sidaway 05:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, too! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• If this is to be kept it should be called Kurdish inhabited regions as per the naming policy to use plurals in categories. How long was this ban on Kurdish related articles for Coolcat? (Mgm - not logged in) - 131.211.210.16 07:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Use of plural makes sense to me, I'll suggest it on the CFD. Thanks! --Moby 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• Here's a copy of a message I posted to Tony Sidaway:

While I agree, the best way for Coolcat to stay out of trouble is to edit other articles, I think he made a valid point when he nominated this particular category for deletion. And now people are voting keep based on his involvement rather than the merits or demerits of the category itself (which is in my opinion even more disruptive -- bad, bad!). The thing is the category is vague. Should London be considered a Kurdish inhabited region? And what kind of precedent will it set? American inhabited region, German inhabited region, French inhabited region?

I think Coolcat was right to nominate such a vague category and I don't think banning him for it is the right thing to do. If someone else had nominated it, this whole thing wouldn't have happened. - Mgm| 10:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The nomination of Category:Kurdish inhabited region was the action that prompted me to start this discussion here, but the disruption has been on-going on pages such as Category talk:Kurdistan and Talk:Batman, Turkey for some time. He has removed Category:Kurdistan from many article (awhile ago...) and has been rather clear about his intent to oppose all efforts at categorizing Kurdish articles. Given his history, I would think a ban on Kurdish-related editing an apt remedy. An hour ago I left a note on his talk page and he screamed at me. I don't see him as willing to work with others on this subject. --Moby 10:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

As mentors I see it as our main jobs to keep Cool_Cat (talk · contribs) editing effectively and to avoid another rendezvous with the arbitration committee. As always, it is not Cool Cat's judgement on content that is in question but the way in which he interacts with others on some subjects. Yesterday he was blocked for forty-eight hours by Lethe (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) as a result of the complaint by Moby_Dick (talk · contribs). In Lethe's view, Cool Cat has edited disruptively on the subject of the Kurds so arbitration remedy 5 is invoked.

This isn't the first time since the arbitration that we've had trouble with Cool Cat over Kurds. From early March he has made some unconstructive AfDs:

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kingdom of Kurdistan
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mykonos (restaurant)
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Turkish Kurdistan

and some unconstructive comments on others:

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Genetic origins of the Kurds
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Stub_types_for_deletion&diff=prev&oldid=44203127

There is an ongoing concern, and I think a valid one, that Cool Cat permits his edits on such issues to be influenced too strongly by his sympathies with Turkish nationalism. He repeatedly attempts to promote the removal of categories, templates and content related to an ethnicity that, while not having a single national entity of its own, is significant enough to be treated seriously by an encyclopedia.

Editors who complain about his activities and his attitude thus have a solid basis upon which to do so.

It is for this reason that I announced the one-week ban.

However, User:MacGyverMagic is also one of Cool Cat's mentors, and although in this case I have acted alone I do not intend to take actions with which any of my fellow mentors disagree.

In view of MacGyverMagic's opposition, I rescind the ban pending further discussion. --Tony Sidaway 15:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for documenting these other activities; the scope of the issue is greater than I was aware (and I now understand the restaurant references).

While I disagree with User:Cool Cat's judgment on many of the Kurd-issues here, it is his attitude that is most troublesome. In his response below I see no sign that he sees any validity to the objections others have raised -- he appears to be simply digging in his heels. If no action is taken on this issue, what's to stop him from continuing to obstruct efforts involving Kurds in the future? Presumably this whole incident will have been noted by a variety of people, but I don't expect many to involve themselves in the issue (which I would welcome).

I understand that banning someone is a serious step and should not be taken lightly. I will avoid editing any of the Kurd articles and categories against consensus. If a clear direction on an appropriate course to take on Kurdish categorization comes out of this whole dispute I'll be pleased. --Moby 09:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Disruption of Batman, Turkey

A review of the editing on Batman, Turkey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) over the last two months will reveal that User:Cool Cat has edit warred and generally disrupted all efforts by a number of editors, including myself. He has repeatedly removed categories related to Kurds, and sources and statements about Kurds, and he has been joined by anons that make the same redactions that he does. At the moment the article is protected due to an edit war (that I was not involved in) over the addition of a paragraph about the killing of a Kurdish child by Turkish Security Forces (I did add the paragraph and a source). While it was anons that edit warred with various users, it was User:Cool Cat that argued on the talk page against the inclusion of the paragraph . --Moby 10:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

And you have declared the place predominantly kurdish when neither a census nor any other reliable source to base this on is avalible. You have also declared many other cities predominatly kurdish.

My 'disruption' is explaining that a census was not held even though the BBC claims the place is predominantly kuridsh (in a random news coverage)

--Cat out 17:53, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Also regarding that incident, if I recall correctly davenbelle had it on his userpage... Something about a "bullet riddled child". Admins can check the delet history. --Cat out 23:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I think adding a cunk of 'sensative information' irrelevant to the topic covered is most certainly not in the best interest of wikipedia. It only leads to a revert war as we can observe. --Cat out 23:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

You must be recalling some other "bullet riddled child" -- Fatih Tekin was killed recently.

According to the EU-Turkey Civic Commission Submission on Recent Violence, on March 30, 2006, Fatih Tekin, a 3 year old boy, was shot and killed by Turkish Security forces during a police raid on a civilian house in Batman during a series of violent clashes in the Kurdish regions of Turkey.EU-Turkey Civic Commission Submission on Recent Violence on khrp.org

--Moby 06:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Has to be a coincidence... Now what did I say about coincidences...

How does this "bullet riddled child" expand the article? How does it give the reader a better understanding of the city? As unfortunate and tragic the boys death is, wikipedia is not a memorial and the incident has no significance to the city to be on the article. It might have been an interesting wikinews article, though I am not even certain of that. It is equaly irrelevant to talk about that kurdish boy pkk shot and killed or that teacher that died due to a heart attack.

Recently two little girls were abducted, raped, and murdered in texas (IIRC). No referance to the incident is made in the article about the region as it shouldn't.

--Cat out 08:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Cool Cat's response to all of this

It is quite pathetic when one has to defend himself to his mentor... I'll list the articles, categories, and templates I have placed for deletion below. I am going to include ones Tony Sidaway did not include as well.

I'd like to point out the reason why we do not do polls for deletion. All deletion processes are a concensus gathering process. However on occasions disruptive behaviour such as Vote Stacking do happen.

Hence I will explain all of the deletion votes I started or participated. I will try to be brief for all of them.

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kingdom of Kurdistan
  • Article was originaly talking about two countries that have supposively existed. One only lasted 2 years while another lasted less than 6 months. The article(s) barely occupy a paragraph and had two sections I believe.
  • Article at a point was comparing the british goverment with saddam as "the british goverment gassed the kurds".
  • I was in contact with Tony on IRC about this deletion, I do not recall the details but he did not say or imply such a deletion would be disruptive.
  • During the vfd the articles quality was improved sligtly
  • Perhaps article is much suitable to be a section on an article with the title "Modern History of the Kurds" as article cant grow much even when inflated with lists of cabinate members.
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mykonos (restaurant)
  • When I placed this article up for deleteion it was talking about an insignificant restourant which two kurds supposively had been shot. At the time the article barely could be considered a stub. After the deletion article was slightly inproved and renamed. It became a historicaly significant incident and hence became article worthy as an incident rather than info about the restourant.
  • I discussed the possible afd of this article with Tony Sidaway on IRC and he said it was pretty useless and that he said it wouldnt probably survive a deletion.
  • The result of my Afd is a better article with a better title.
  • This article should be a section at "Modern history of the Kurds" as article is too short and cant grow as the incident was quite minor and all details have been presented.
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Turkish Kurdistan
  • Other editors, one being Gruntness feels this article exists soely as a pov fork. Syrian Kurdistan was deleted for that reason
  • There was a case of vote stacking over 14 people were notified of this afd of which all but one voted favorably to the advertisier (user:Bertilvidet) with keep. My complaint about a vote stacking generated milimal response and no action.
  • Article currently gives a short intoduction to kurdish history which is a copy of History of the Kurds and a number of articles. Kurdistan is not oversized and we do have a Kurds in Turkey if we are to talk about the kurds. We can talk about Kurdish nationalism in its own article.
  • If we had a sensable deletion process this article would have been deleted. If you think otherwise please provide a rationale at what purpose does this article with pov titile, Turkish Kurdistan, serve that cant be achieved through Kurds in Turkey and Kurdish nationalism.
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Genetic origins of the Kurds
  • It is a strange article. I believe this article is nothing but pusedo science and promotes racisim. When I nominated this article for deleteion there was a VERY LARGE dna picture and it was less than neutral. it might be a nice addition to a section under Kurdish people. BUT etnicity is a cultural concept not genetic. Genetic would be race and last time I checked Kurds were just an ethnic minority.
• Category:Kurdish terrorists
  • I got this category speedy deleted.
  • I personaly believe Abdullah Ocalan is a Kurdish terrorist. Hence my nomination is in conflict with my personal views.
• Category:PKK victims
  • I got this category speedy deleted.
  • I personaly believe PKK is a Terrorist organisation and anybody they killed is a victim. Hence my nomination is in conflict with my personal views.
• Template:Kurd-politician-stub
  • I participated in this vote expressing why the stub category is pov. Stub types have very explicit guidelines.
  • I'd like to point out comments of some of the people voting keep... They are by far intruguing
  • I have not initiated this deletion
  • The "unless we consider kurdish a nationality and kurdistan a country which would be pov not shared by international treaties" comment tony highlighted is in parallel with stub guidelines.
    • While a Category:Kurdish politicians may be approporate. I would however prefer a categorisation similar to the format politicians in United States is covered such as Category:African American politicians. Tagging a Kurd in Iraq and Turkey under the same category would be problematic and confusing. However I do not intend to do anything about it as my block is proof wikipedia is not worth my devotion anymore.
• Template:Kurdistan-politician-stub
  • Speedy deleted as per vote mentioned above.
  • User:Retau created this
• Template:Kurdistan-bio-stub
  • Probably will be deleted as a back log as per stub sorting practice.
  • User:Retau created this
• Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 April 30#Category:Kurdish provinces and #Category:Kurdish cities
  • We do not categorise provinces, cities, or other landmarks based on ethnicity. I do not see why kurds are treated diferently from rest of wikipedia.
  • If demographic information about an ethnicity is avalible it can be presented in an article.
  • Who determines which article fits in these category or not? Kurdistan does not have defined borders nor are there any reliable data on Kurdish population.
  • Categories are navigation aids. The basis of such categories for provinces and cities is based on "who owns the place". Categories are not tools for territory grab. We do not tag every province and city in mainland china under Category:Taiwan just because the goverment claims it. Kurds do not even have a country to claim territory from.
  • User:Retau created both of the categories
  • See User:El_C's comment about User:Retau on the next section.
• Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 8#Category:Kurdish inhabited region
  • Originaly intended to be a comprimise to Category:Kurdistan. I requested its creation from user:Ed poor via email and/or irc.
  • I later changed my mind as categorising based on ethnicity still is a poor practice. No example of ethnic tagging exists in articles like New York or California.
  • It is more problematic as we do not have any reliable statistics regarding the Kurds. We do not know how many kurds there are let alone know what fraction of the population they occupy as no census about ethnicity was EVER held in the past 7 decades at least to my knowlege.
• Categories I haven't touched nor intend to touch Category:Kurdish people, Category:History of the Kurds, Category:Kurdish musicians, Category:Kurdish politicians, Category:Kurdish writers,... List goes on I am well aware of many other categories, articles, and templates related to the kurds. So I am definaltly not trying to delete everything related to kurds at random.
• My actions are infact reactions to mass creation of many contraversial categories all only exist soley to grab territory. I also raise concerns about tiny articles that have no way of growing. None of my actions have "distupted" the articles in question unless you consider improvement as disruption.

--Cat out 17:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

On at least one matter of fact I must correct Cool Cat. He and I discussed the article Mykonos (restaurant) and I edited to add a reference from a Time article. I told him at 2007 UTC on March 1, 2006, that, as with all deletion candidates I edit, "I don't think it stands a snowball's chance in hell of being deleted." I had told him at 2000, "the case is obviously notable. It led to an international incident" -Tony Sidaway 20:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I actualy interprted that as the article has a chance to survive as much as a snowball in hell. In any case my nomination was for a non-notable restourant. Overal the nomination improved the article, not disrupt. For instance it was renamed as it was not about this random restourant. --Cat out 16:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I can see in retrospect that my wording was unclear. I can see how this unintentionally misled you on the subject. --Tony Sidaway 12:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

No harm done, I do however owe you an apology for misinterpreting your words. I can also finaly understand why you kinda acted wierdly (from my perspective) at the time. Having said that, I am curious on what you think of the evidence I presented below? --Cat out 22:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Curiously, User:Cool Cat has responded here while blocked . His post is interesting in that he has basically documented more of the disruptive behavior that I have objected to and for this I thank him. --Moby 09:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I would just like to say that I support Cool Cat on this matter. The Kurdish categories were deleted before by nominations because of the vagueness of the borders of the proposed "Kurdistan" region - which had lead to edit wars in the past, they were created again by the User:Retau (Who may be a sockpuppet of User:Xebat according to CheckUser - who was banned recently for a year according to the Aucaman ArbCom ). I believe User:Moby Dick has turned this simple matter to something very personal which I regret to say that will not help the matter. -- - K a s h 15:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I've little opinion of the conjecture of a reincarnated Davenbelle, but there is a qualm in this editor's behavior. As per the above edvidence, this editor's initial confrontation with me conflicted over a userpage misunderstanding. This is a archived discussion on my talkpage which can be found here. After the I refuted the accusation, said editor took to being my shadow, which I noted after a number of appearences in locations across the encyclopedia which were in direct contact to my usertalk page (he has it consistently watchlisted you see). I made a final verification of this after he made a spell check on my talkpage, confirming he sees almost every comment posted there. This has been prevelant ever since the allegation on AN/I, but I never gave it much heed and it didn't bother me, so I let it alone. There were no subsequent direct confrontations after this incident, so I assumed good faith, and didn't have a valid complaint anyway, since, despite his occasional trolling, Moby makes excellent contributions to article space, not to mention ground-breaking work. Proceeding that incident, I took his talkpage off my watchlist and went about other things. I soon forgot the subject and the user, and made the presumption he had as well.

During some article expansion, I ran into two disruptive editors (BIG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 70.231.130.128 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) on Talk:Colonel (Mega Man) and Ridge Racer during which said editors introduced/removed content from article space without any sources and any factually correct rebuttals. I made many reverts, for which I was subsquently blocked for , but respected due to the fact one must accept the consequences of his actions regarding the violation, despite the fact I was correct. I questioned the point of the blocks due to the fact, neither admistrator had taken the discussion on the talkpages into account and how each of the blocks were issued large timeframes after said violation (The first block occured 24 hours after the edit war was nullified and the page protected; the second several hours later, and after I had reverted myself to reach an comprimise). This incited a more active response from the editor, who had merely been watching my talkpage and contributions to this point. Druing the timeframe of my second block, He posted a note on William's talkpage (Another one of my elaborate plans to take the wiki by storm) concerning an established contributor engaging in vandalism. I had extreme difficulty believing this post when I first saw it. I posted a reply rearding this shortly afterward detailing my surprise at this bad-faith attempt to descend me into scurtuniy. William percieved this as a personal attack and threatened to block me shortly afterwards . It certainly wasns't intended as a personal attack, but I removed the comment as I don't believe personal attacks accepteble on anyone. I complied and altered my comment as I deemed necessary , after which William decided to block me anyway for being insolent. Not too much of a problem, since it was bedtime anyway.

The editor in question persisted. After a clearly confused william asked how it was relevant, Moby replied I circumvented my block and I was still up to something (I was still plotting my master scheme, you know) and that I should still be punished. Now expasperated, I made another note on the talkpage and explained the situation in full. which defused the matter. Around the ensuing timeframe, he proceeded to conflict in the Kurd-nonsense with Cool Cat, who was subsquently blocked. I'm aware that Cool Cat has a aggressive viewpoint on this subject and has encountered much opposition on this before, so I didn't comment on the matter, although it was quite obvious to the informed Moby didn't report the rfar violation in good faith. I took note of this after seeing his replies to various editors on subject on WP:AN/I, which gave me great cause for concern on his intent:

Revision as of 09:45, May 9, 2006 - "Thanks for you comment!"

Revision as of 09:28, May 10, 2006 - "..His post is interesting in that he has basically documented more of the disruptive behavior that I have objected to and for this I thank him."

I drew the line there. At wikipedia we report violations to enforce stability on article space and the workings of the site. Seeing this joy in the punishment of another user was very disturbing. One must really take into account weather this user is advocating the well-being of the article or muggery of those he disagrees with.

There certainly is a problem here.

At the current date, I was prompted by MONGO on my talkpage to accept an rfa , which I was hesitant, but felt I was ready for the additional workload. Before I accepted the nomination, I made note that I was being closely survallianced by Moby and I had no doubt a opposition would arise. I was correct in the assesment (I would have been honestly surprised had he not taken participation) , with said user agressively making the point of my image forgery and the rebuttal I made regarding his outrageous accusation. I was presently away from the computer, so when I returned I was atonished to find my rfa had already been withdrawn in an act of kindness by the nominator.

I stress that its not obtuse to believe Moby may be Davenbelle, as I'm still utterly baffled as to how a new user can simply migrate to a userpage, search the history extensively, and blow an ensuing argument about a misunderstanding out of porportion. It also strikes one as odd when a user immediately engages in long-standing conflict about aftermentioned article and makes reverts unusual for one so new. However, despite the sockkery or not, it needs to be known this editor has engaged in trolling and many contributions have been verified to be unwelcome at this encyclopedia. -Zero 16:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, look who showed up. Yes, I opposed your RFA -- what were you thinking, with blocks just last week?

As to being your "shadow" -- hardly. Yes, you are on my watchlist and have been since you deleted my legitimate comments from your talk page. Please do not feel that I consider your talk page surveillance-worthy -- it is mostly extremely banal chatter about video games. Your poorly-affected adult-English, however, does occasionally provide some amusement, as does your spelling.

I do thank you for your praise of some of my edits; hope you don't take offence -- In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex is a wonderful book.

Also, you did comment on the matter involving User:Cool Cat and Kurds -- remember now?

--Moby 10:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC) (who is not a troll, thank you)

You sound just like a pouty child trying to lie his out of a fix by pretending it's all Cool Cat's fault. Give it up. I'm not impressed. -Zero 11:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: While I believe that CoolCat hasn't looked especially open to compromise, it is unfair to declare that all of these actions are "disruptive" - it is unfortunate that he changed his mind about a compromise category but changing your mind should always be allowed. There is no general consensus about ethnic-geography categories. Indeed, these Kurdish examples seem to be the sole example of the type; presumably because most people find the idea of an ill-defined ethnic-geography category a bad idea. I am open to the idea if implemented properly, but the three ethnic-geography categories CoolCat has nominated were all, quite simply, dire. They had POV issues. They were poorly defined. The most recent one even had a grammatically incorrect name! I do not believe it is disruptive to nominate for deletion something that, in the reasonable opinions of many well-respected Wikipedians (and there are many who agreed with CoolCat - see the votes), does not belong on Misplaced Pages. CoolCat has not been mass-deleting Kurdish-related articles. He has not been attempting deletions of neutral, generally accepted, Kurdish categories. He has made a contentious attempt to expunge ethnic-geography cross-over categories, but these have widespread opposition from many sources so I don't think that it is genuinely disruptive. Nobody should be forced to compromise on the issue of ethnic-geography categories, since many Wikipedians reasonably disagree strongly with their creation - failure to agree on a compromise isn't necessarily a sign of disruption if you honestly believe (especially with something as "binary" in nature as a category) that something is a harmful or damaging idea. The fact that many of his nominations were speedied is an indication that he isn't being entirely disruptive, perhaps the restaurant and genetics AfDs were the closest to that mark. The thing that seems to be the real problem is that CoolCat isn't making a secret of his personal views. While sometimes he edits in a way that shows he is actually being a "Good Wikipedian" and going against personal preference in the interests of the encyclopedia (e.g. with the Kurdish terrorist category) when he is making a positive, useful contribution that seems "in tune" with his views, he looks like a disruptive POV-monger. Which in turn makes people vote against him unthinkingly... It would be better, perhaps, if he kept some of these topics at arm's length and merely brought these instances to the attention of Wikipedians known to be neutral on the Kurdistan question, to allow them to decide whether to make a deletion request or not. I simply can not believe that anybody would have cut any slack to Category:Hispanic inhabited region for instance: it would have been wiped off the face of the 'pedia without any second thoughts; however, the fact that it is CoolCat and the Kurds has meant that this category has a surprising number of keep votes. However, whether CoolCat wants to take this degree of extra care (and restrict his editing accordingly) in cases which are fundamentally non-disruptive should really be for CoolCat to decide, not any of us. TheGrappler 22:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Moby Dick (talk · contribs)

I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.

1. User:Moby Dick has a total of 344 edits as of the preparation of this report.
   • I'd consider him to be new to wikipedia as he has been a wikipedian since december. This alone is not a problem though.
   • User:Davenbelle's last edit was on 03:20, 6 December 2005, User:Moby Dick made his first edit on 01:29, 23 December 2005
2. On 03:02, 26 January 2006 users makes his first edit into the wikipedia namespace and it is opposing my RfA
   • He seems to have located my RfA conviniantly. It his his 84th edit. He also makes a very professional edit by incrementing the oppose counter. Its something often oldies fail to notice
   • We have not edited any articles in common meaning he did not know me at all.
   • He participated in a total of 2 RfA aside from my own. One for Megaman Zero (as oppose) and another for Khoikhoi (support). Both are figures I know. He is definately not a frequent voter.
   • User:Davenbelle had opposed my other previous two of my rfas.
     • One of these RfAs were filed by MegamanZero
     • User:Davenbelle managed to oppose it before the nominator, megaman zero, could support
3. On 07:57, 25 February 2006 MobyDick conviniantly discovered "forgery" on Megaman Zero's user page
   • Long ago, on 20:05, 2 January 2006, User:Megaman Zero complained about User:Davenbelles behaviour on User:Davenbelles talk page.
   • This is just 3 edits after him opposing my rfa. Mind the month long gap. It is strange to say the least.
   • User:Davenbelle gave User:Megaman_Zero the award.
   • This incident had made its way to the ANB. This is mobydicks first post to the ANB
4. On 07:21, 10 March 2006, Moby Dick informs user:Aucaman about my RfAr
   • It is possible that he could have learnt about the existance of the RfAr from my 3rd rfa nomination as I have mentioned it there. However a key question is why did he tell this to Aucaman. He has no edits in comon with Aucaman. Nor was he involved with anything related to the kurds.
   • This is his first post for 11 days, in the previous post he was complaining about megaman zeros award on the ANB.
5. On 02:41, 11 March 2006 user participated in his first deletion votes, both were initiated by Megaman Zero
6. On 05:09, 11 March 2006 this user oposed the copy vio nomination I made
   • This is the first and last time the user participates in copyright matters
   • Davnbelle was involved with the Armenian Genocide article and was practicaly opposing anything I suggested. It can be said that was his entier contribution.
7. On 05:58, 11 March 2006 user opposed the deletion of Category:Kurdistan which I initiated.
   • user had not been involved with any other issues regarding Kurds or any such deletion votes for that matter.
8. On 02:51, 13 March 2006 user got involved with an article about kurds for the first time on Batman, Turkey article. He has repetively restored "Kurdish dominance" line by reverting my edit. This continued on
   • user:Bertilvidet is one other party desperately working to force "Kurdish dominance" to the lead.
   • Davenbelle also prefered to oppose me whenever possible. This might be too vauge to be considered as evidence but take a look at and
9. On 02:20, 1 May 2006 user created the KHRP redirect.
   • There is nothing disruptive with that. however if you take a look at you will see Davenbelle had initiated the article redirect leads to.

These are the coincidences I have found on frist sight. There are of course other cases I can post but I want to keep my report brief.

Among 6,929,863 many articles and 48,457,924 number of users, MobyDick's edits intersect with Davenbelle on more than one ocasion. Would make a great statistics research paper.

I wont come up with conclusions but I find the material I just posted very interesting.

--Cat out 14:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I actually liked this evidence gathering. Interesting indeed. -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 03:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Too long, didn't read. Telex 16:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Too long, indeed -- however I felt obliged to read it. User:Cool Cat is making this false allegation in order to divert attention from the issue of his behavior and, it would seem, in order to entangle me in his arbitration case. It is also not the first time has has made this sort of claim: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Cool Cat. While the factual details -- who has edited what, for example -- of his accusation appear to be accurate (I've not checked), his spin and interpretation are entirely self-serving.

I believe I first encountered User:Cool Cat on the first CFD of Category:Kurdistan and did not like his obvious intent of limiting Kurdish content on Misplaced Pages. I have used Misplaced Pages as a reference for years and its greatest problem is inconsistent accuracy of information and it is the behavior of editors such as User:Cool Cat that is responsible for this.

User:Cool Cat's implied accusation (which he makes explicit here) can easily be explained by the fact that articles and users he refers to are all related; they involve Kurds or they involve him. He expresses concern that my edits are too "professional" for one so "new" -- as if this were the only wiki in the world.

I would add again that he does not appear to be interested seeking a consensus. He efforts here only serve to make the editing environment hostile.

--Moby 10:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting argument. What wiki do you normaly work for? Tonikaku, I may have been wrong on Amask's case but that has nothing to do with your case. Amask has participated in only two votes and one or two articles. Since the nonsense I had to deal with davenbelle, I had been somewhat jumpy... Lets consider your statistics.

• You have participated in a total of 3 rfas, the first one you have ever voted was my rfa and you voted oppose, just like davenbelle. After Coincidentaly the other two rfas are people who I know about. Of that MegamanZero is the person that told Davenbelle to stop stalking (See User Talk:Davenbelle). The other RfA you participated was for Khoikhoi who at the time in dispute with me. Lets call all that circumstential evidence and discard them.
• You have participated in a total of 8 deletion votes. 5 of them opposing me, 2 of them opposing megamanzero. So thats 7 out of 8 deletion votes we have in common. Again lets call that circumstential evidence and discard it.
• There is this hole case of you and megaman zero. You were complaining about something megaman zero recieved from davenbelle. MegamanZero at a point modifed the bycycle award to an exceptional newbie award long ago at 10:50, 18 January 2006. I Had to dig through the userpage history to discover the actual modification of the award and I knew what I was looking for.
  1. So we have an award given to MegamanZero by davenbelle.
  2. We have MegamanZero warning davenbelle to stop stalking me on a much later date. (a motive for davenbelle to seek "revenge") as MegamanZero and I had been close and still are close.
  3. We have megaman zero modifying the given award in 12 january (hey he can its his userpage)
  4. We have you detecting and "correcting" it on 25 february.
  5. We know you never met megamanzero on any article, meaning you didnt know him.

  So among 48,457,924 registered users, you found Megaman Zero at random. You also discovered "forgery" of an award on his userpage which required me to load a dozen diffs even though I knew what I was looking for.

• You make edits such as this or this. While to an untrained eye it is a simple vandalism reversion. Davenbelle was also very interested in the contravercy surrounding the Southeastern Anatolia Project , an article I mostly wrote. Among 6,929,863 we meet on the same article as davenbelle edited on the same section.
• We also have you removing/objecting a copyright issue I posted concerning a letter and the Armenian Genocide . It spikes my curiosity how on earth have you noticed that post? And if you are so concerned about copyrights why havent you ever commmented on another copyright issue?
• I noticed recently. So you have randomly discovered an edit of mine and since it is a redirect that is among 4,190,567 pages. You have reverted an edit of mine from 04:20, 12 April 2006.

You are complaining about me creating a hostile enviorment... How productive is you complaining about megaman zeros award? How would you describe your attitude?

Coincidences? Sure. A striking question is why would a user who had only edited articles about the novel featuring the whale Moby Dick suddenly start to edit articles related to Kurds, Armenians, and Turkey practicaly opposing me on every opertunity?

I said I wouldnt come up with the conclusions and I wont, however if davenbelle made edits like yours... he would be considered stalking in my view.

--Cat out 19:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh and before I forget comments such as the one below create a hostile environment. Not just that, it is also very incivil.

As to being your "shadow" -- hardly. Yes, you are on my watchlist and have been since you deleted my legitimate comments from your talk page. Please do not feel that I consider your talk page surveillance-worthy -- it is mostly extremely banal chatter about video games. Your poorly-affected adult-English, however, does occasionally provide some amusement, as does your spelling.

Misplaced Pages prizes itself for its coverage on topics such as hard science as well as video games and Anime episode descriptions. Founder of wikipedia had made his view on this issue quite clear.

--Cat out 19:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I, for one, consider an ethnic group of twenty-odd million people to be a bit more encyclopaedic than a bunch of doe-eyed adolescent cartoon characters. --Moby 10:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

You are entitled to have your opinions. I for one consider all topics equally relevant and important. Certainly you appriciate fiction on wikipedia. You contributed a great deal to articles such as In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex. I do not understand why you think so 'lowly' of articles about 'a bunch of doe-eyed adolescent cartoon characters'. The ethnic group of twenty-odd million people is no more significant than Chaos theory. --Cat out 23:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex is not fiction. --Moby 06:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Very well it isnt fiction and is 100% factual. --Cat out 21:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

You think I'm stalking you? I want nothing more than to be rid of you. You are the one who seems to have studied every edit I've made, and who will spin any yarn it takes to minimise Kurdish coverage. --Moby 10:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Do not blame me for 'exposing' you monitoring my edits. I merely reviewed your contributions. I never accused you of stalking, I told everyone I wont be making the conclusions.

First step of any kind of investigation is to determine a motive. Based on your statement you confirm that your intentions are simply 'to get rid of me'. Thats not exactly an example of a friendly enviorment. Davenbelle was also pretty desperate to get rid of me.

--Cat out 02:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Please to not misrepresent what I said. I said that I wanted to be rid of you not that I wanted to get rid of . The meaning of what I said is that I do not want you opposing everything I or others try and achieve on articles and categories related to Kurds; you spun it so that it sounds like I want to put you in a river. --Moby 10:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I frankly do not see the difference in your comment. 'to be rid of you' and 'to get rid of you' sounds pretty much same to me. So you want me to leave the topics you disagree with me? Are you suggesting that I can't disagree with you? --Cat out 17:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Cool Cat has problems with Kurds and Kurdistan. I remember reading a comment by User:Cool Cat stating how Kurds had a president in Turkey and what else could they want. I've asked the user politely to stop contributing on the PKK article because this user had a political point of view. But told me I couldn't ask him this. Ozgur Gerilla 02:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Ozgur you have a "I support PKK" userbox, so you have a POV too, in order to maintain WP:NPOV on an article both view points should be presented not just yours, please try to understand this. -- - K a s h 10:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

No, you have got it all wrong. What you need to understand is that my support has nothing to do with WP:NPOV because I believe that could be controlled by a person. But I told User:Cool Cat that I did not contribute to the PKK article because I thought it will be wrong and asked him to not contribute too. Ozgur Gerilla 17:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh but he doesn't. You cannot possibly expect any editor to cease editting a article simply due to the withdrawal of your own insertions. I have a stupendous point of view on Keiji Inafune, but that does not interrupt my ability to leave my feelings at the door. However, it is known that Cool Cat is somewhat aggresisve on this subject, and a small amount of leeway for other subject matter would behoove him. This certianly dies not mean he isn't a valuble contributor to these articles. -Zero 17:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I am the person who gets categories like Kurdish terrorists AND Turkish terrorists deleted. I will 'agressively' remove Category:Kurdistan from articles related to turkish provinces and cities (reasons have been discussed to death). In parallel I will also 'agressively' remove "terrorist" referance from Kurdistan Workers Party even though I belive it is indeed a terrorist organisation. I am impartial when applying NPOV. --Cat out 20:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Zero, I wasn't aware of a few rules or the way people behave on subjects such as this one because I was a new Wikipedian. I was making a point to User:Kashk despite its correctness. What I mean is, if there is information users want to add to the article no user should restrict the individual from doing it; I have only ASKED CoolCat to stop contributing because I saw this user making offensive comments on KURDS not the PKK.

CoolCat, I think you need to learn when to use your anger. Agressively removing Category:Kurdistan from articles related to Turkish provinces and cities isn't the right way to act in my thoughts because many unbiased books have used the term for the region. Ozgur Gerilla 21:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

MobyPenis and PenisMoby

It would appear that someone created these accounts based on my username:

MobyPenis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
PenisMoby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

--User:Moby Dick 11:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Then report them in WP:VIP. I have gotten 44 such accounts blocked. Shanel had 212 such impostors --Cat out 13:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

both had been blocked already for several hours before Moby Dick even reported them here. ;) Syrthiss 13:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Probably by either my or Curpses script... --Cat out 13:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Captain scarlet

This user keeps reverting other users at Saint-Germain-en-Laye, insisting on using British English usage and spelling. In particular, he insists that we should use the word "transport" instead of "transportation", because supposedly the word "transportation" is American English. I already explained to him on his talk page that the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style clearly stated that "when either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for a Misplaced Pages editor to change from one style to another unless there is some substantial reason for the change", but it was to no avail. He has deleted my message on his talk page, but you can find it here (). You can also notice that Captain Scarlet created on his user page a special language tag that I am reproducing here:

Other incidents involving Captain Scarlet were already reported, but they were archived without explanation. You can find the archived incidents here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive94#User:Captain scarlet. Hardouin 12:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

This naming incident is a misguided attempt. Tranportation was not changed to British English but brought in line with the article for transport Transport in France. It makes sence to have all articles refering to transportation in France to match the national article. I have been unable to have Hardouin see the importance of consistency throughout french articles in this matter. All messages from Hardouin have been kept and archived. The language template has been on Misplaced Pages for months and I am not its creator, the template was deleted (see Template:User_AmE-0, where its history is protected). Regards, Captain scarlet 13:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Without wanting to get involved in the dispute: the Manual of Style says that " there is no strong tie to a specific dialect, the dialect of the first significant contributor (not a stub) should be used." There is no official French dialect of English, so "the dialect of the first significant contributor should be used." The first significant contributor was Hardouin (talk · contribs) here. If you wish to see the wording changed to match the main relevant category, Captain scarlet, argue for it on the article's talk page. But there is nothing at this point in the wikipedia namespace policies and guidelines to mandate your change, and edit warring certainly doesn't help. Aecis 14:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC) (note: I am not saying that the section can never be called Transport, I'm saying that this is not the way to achieve such a change.)

This article is on a place in France, so European English (British English) should be used according to the Manual of Style. —Ruud 15:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• • Woah! That is a significant change in the understanding of English dialects. When did that slip through? User:Zoe| 16:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm sorry, Mr. Koot, but I don't think that's accurate. The Manual of Style doesn't mention any sort of British dominion over articles pertaining to European topics. It's my recollection that the British ultimately lost the 100 Years War, so articles about French topics aren't held to either British or American English. JDoorjam Talk 16:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• • The two editors above me are right: there is no such mention in the Manual of Style. In fact, the only mention that comes remotely close to Europe is this: "Article on European Union institutions: British, Irish and Maltese English usage and spelling". In other words: wikipedia has no preference for British English over other dialects of English when it comes to Europe. The only thing in the Manual of Style that applies here is that "the dialect of the first significant contributor should be used." The first significant contributor is Hardouin, and he/she used Transportation. Aecis 17:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Ditto what Aecis & JDoorjam wrote, I won't go any deeper. JackLumber 20:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems there was some discussion last week on clarifying the MoS on this point: Wikipedia_talk:Manual of Style#EU. I made the same inference as Woodstone did in that discussion: the article is related to France and, if the situation is similar to that in the Netherlands, the French are thaught British English at school. That said, this edit war exceeds the usual lameness of spelling wars. —Ruud 23:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Ugh. Another candidate for a job at the soup kitchen. The key is consistency within an article. Beyond that, the status quo has an advantage over any change. Anyone changing for pigheaded, chauvanistic reasons is no better than a vandal. If a person is changing not to correct mistakes in information, not to aid in coherence, but rather because he or she is a bigot about his own nation or a visionary who wants to assume what other nations should write like. What is the difference between someone rewriting an article that is consistent and clear to reflect his personal fetish for language and someone doing so to reflect his personal political views? Both are changes that do not aid anyone but the editor, and that's not what we're here for. Geogre 23:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Just because I have nothing better to do...okay, that's a lie, but I couldn't help myself. From Google:

• 1,810,000 for behaviour site:.fr
• 1,600,000 for behavior site:.fr

• 11,700,000 for licence site:.fr
• 6,170,000 for license site:.fr

• 84,500 for petrol site:.fr
• 44,000 for gasoline site:.fr

• 31,500 for "different to" site:.fr
• 509,000 for "different from" site:.fr.

• 44 for "estate wagon" site:.fr
• 26,300 for "station wagon" site:.fr

• 449 for rubber tyre site:.fr
• 10,100 for rubber tire site:.fr

• 60,000 for lorry site:.fr
• 367,000 for truck site:.fr

I'm not seeing a whole lot of dominance by any particular variety of English, based on this rough survey. --Calton | Talk 00:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Did you take into account that "licence" and "tire" are also French words? This thwarted my attempt to see if the French prefer American over British humo(u)r. —Ruud 00:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

No, but it might explain the bulges in their results. And since the French love Jerry Lewis, clearly the French prefer American over British humo(u)r. --Calton | Talk 03:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

My reason for changing Transportation to Transport had nothing to do with changing American to English but to appky consistency between Transport in France to a section of transport in France, as state in all of my edit summaries. Replying to Calton and as a parenthesis, English is taught in France rather than American, I'd know. The above debate if off topic since the reason for changing the chapter header was not the reason stated by Hardouin as seen in my edit summaries. It is though likely that I will report Hardouin on other matters of vandalism and unwillingness to cooperate with other editors, myself and others. Regards Captain scarlet 16:40, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I recomend taking this american vs british argument to somewhere else. --Cat out 23:46, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Captain Scarlet's argument that he changed the spelling only to conform to Transport in France is a bit of a joke. Transport in France was originally called Transportation in France and was moved to Transport in France only a month ago () apparently by another user who doesn't like American English either. Is that how things should work on Misplaced Pages? By the way, in France there is no particular English spelling taught in schools. Both American and British English spellings are taught, depending on the English teacher. Traditionally the English manuals were more oriented towards British English, but these days with the arch-domination of the US in the world and the fascination of French people for the US it is rather American English that has the upper hand in schools. Parents insist on the school teachers teaching American English to their kids, with US material (recordings, videos, etc). Hardouin 20:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You may see this as a joke, just as much as it seems others see your edits as a joke, but since I have spent half my life in french education, I am french, I have lived in France, I would find comments like your rather obscure. As I always say, If I make the effort to make an edit, or a comment I know it is true. If I'm unsure, I don't mention it.

Transportation in France was changed Trnasport in France, quite rightfully, and as such any article containing [[Transport in France)) should use the same approrpriate naming, for consistency's sake. I have edit a handful of articles, making few of those featured within the following day in accordance to Transport in France and to nothing else, wether you accept it or not, that is a fact.

Misplaced Pages is no place for PoV, it is about facts, consistency, efficiency and certainty, if you do not know what indend on editing, do not edit it. Captain scarlet 22:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You have not proved that I have done any wrong doing, merely that you do not like my edits and comments, which is nothing against Misplaced Pages and what it stands for since PoV are irrelevant. I suggest you sit at the table and talk. Captain scarlet 22:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:User Christian (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) vandalized and left protected

This userbox used by hundreds of users has been vandalized by Gmaxwell (talk · contribs) and Cyde (talk · contribs) and protected in the vandalized state by Freakofnurture (talk · contribs). An userbox of the size of a full article (full of heave calibre POV) is obvious vandalism to me. BTW, none of the two vandals uses this userbox. To add insult to injury, one of them added a rotating crucifix as the image (now deleted). A user Rexmorgan (talk · contribs) who tried to revert this obvious vandalism has been blocked for 24h by Freakofnurture (talk · contribs). Friendly Neighbour 15:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd hesitate to call anything here "obvious vandalism", but it does look like a silly edit war. FWIW, Tony Sidaway has dealt with this in a sensible way, putting the template back to a simple version and unprotecting. Friday (talk) 15:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Not obvious? A userbox with the height of my screen? C'mon. Look the definition in Misplaced Pages:Userboxes: "A userbox is a small coloured box that allows users to add small messages on their user pages". Anyway, thanks Tony! Friendly Neighbour 15:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, the other version was accurate :-) Just zis Guy you know? 16:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree this was absurd, I wouldn't call it anything worse than a content dispute. He certainly meant well, at the very least. --InShaneee 16:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

A classic case of the wrong version :-) Just zis Guy you know? 16:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It was no mere vandalism. Changing a message hundreds of people have already chosen for their userpages is megavandalism of hundreds userpages. I believe long blocks are the only appropriate penalties for such mega-vandals. Friendly Neighbour 18:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Megavandalism, huh? The problem is, if people had just subst'd their templates, they wouldn't have known about this at all. --InShaneee 18:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is hundreds of people did't. Can they be vandalized because they never heard of "subst" (like me until very recently) or simply preferred the uncluttered versions of their pages (also like me)? Maybe we should also replace our userpages with uploaded screenshots of them, not to be the 3RR guilty party when a vandal gets the idea of a "content dispute" on our pages ;-) Friendly Neighbour 18:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

This reeks of POINT and it certainly isn't civil. Furthermore, I am astounded that someone would actually block for this case of 3RR and not block Cyde and Gmaxwell. You shouldn't get to edit war by virtue of having one more person than the other side and get away with it.

Seriously, this was wildly inappropriate, disruptive, not done in good faith, etc even if I think it was hilarious. Kotepho 18:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I have to concur here. I thought it was funny too, and I am the one that got blocked over it. However, "funny" is not really appropriate when it is affecting many users on The Project. With regard to InShaneee's comment - subst is not, as far as I know, official policy or even suggested guideline regarding userboxes at this point, so it is unreasonable to expect everyone to have already worked together to come up with that solution to the problem. Rexmorgan 18:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It may not have been the best move, but I still wouldn't call it vandalism. First of all, the simple fact is that without transclusion, you're open to whatever happens to the template, like it or not. Secondly, although the gif was a bit over the top, the new text was NPOV, and as silly as it came out, I don't think it's something he should be punished for; rather, he should simply be overruled on the talk page. --InShaneee 19:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Every time I see one of these userbox squabbles, it makes me want to tear out my eyes. Whether intended or not, they always end up waltzing with WP:POINT. Keep the blasted thing at Tony's version. –Abe Dashiell 19:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it "vandalism" necessarily, so much as a massive WP:DICK move. These are admins behaving like little children - very disappointing. Isn't there an encyclopedia around here you could be writing, guys? -GTBacchus 19:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Gmaxwell started it again. This time a "compromise version". I reverted him once. I would prefer a better solution. Anyone ready to block the vandal? Friendly Neighbour 19:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a talk page there. These things CAN be discussed. Blocking isn't always the answer. Neither is reverting a 3 word change and calling it 'massive vandalism'. When two users refuse to discuss a change, BOTH are at fault. --InShaneee 20:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

We are not talking an article page. We are talking a message that multiple users link to their userpages (as userbiox policy allows them to) and some other users (who do not use it) want changed. The outsiders can always create their own template if they want. This is the difference between an article about a person/thing/idea and a template where a dissatisfied user can always create a new one. There is no need of template compromises. Really. Friendly Neighbour 20:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Please see WP:OWN. You do not own that template, nor does anyone else. It may be freely edited just like anything else here. Compromise is not only needed, it's expected. --InShaneee 20:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

You did not get my point my point. You can't "own" an article exactly because there can be only one on a given subject. You actually can "own" a template because anyone can create a new one (for example adding a number to the name). Friendly Neighbour 20:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

No, you can't own ANYTHING, period. Templates (such as userboxes) included. If you want your own userbox, subst it, or just create it wholly on your userpage. Once it's put in the Template space, it's subject to all the usual policies. --InShaneee 23:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Good Job Friendly Neighbour, in your haste to defend against evil you managed to revert text suggested by someone who appears to hold your position. As InShaneee said above, compromise is a core aspect of wikipedia. Please discontinue your allegations of bad faith and join the discussion rather than attacking. --Gmaxwell 20:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to qualify, reverting discussed, agreed upon changes can be considered vandalism. --InShaneee 20:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Holy War

Saying this as a non-religious person, I am both appalled and offended at some of the actions being made by two administrators, Gmaxwell and Cyde at Template talk:User Christian. This far oversteps being disruptive to make a WP:POINT. They clearly have no interest in this template other than to offend, disrupt, and probably see to it that the template is ultimately deleted as a result of their offensive disruption. 207.200.116.138 19:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

See WP:AGF as soon as possible, please. --InShaneee 20:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

He should assume good faith when someone writes a whole article inside a userbox, ruining many userpages? There was no good faith, just admins vandalizing. Lapinmies 20:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

If you don't want anyone being able to change what appears on your userpage then you oughn't be transcluding templates. Please read up on WP:OWN while you're at it. Also note that calling an established Wikipedian a vandal because you disagree with them is far, far beyond the pale. Mackensen (talk) 20:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The point was not that they can't be changed, it was that they should not contain a whole article. Lapinmies 20:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no guideline stating that. As I said before, if anyone had a problem with it, the talk page is the first place it should be brought. --InShaneee 20:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no guideline stating that you should not stick peas in your nose. Lapinmies 20:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. And I, along with many of my fellow users, strongly support other user's right to do so, along with anything else they may choose to do outside of wikipedia, where we have no control over them. --InShaneee 20:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm appalled that anyone thinks this comment is anything other than trolling. Mackensen (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

So we can assume good faith of someone who (as an obvious joke) replaces a userbox with an article, but we can't assume good faith of someone who considers that action a violation of WP:POINT? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

We can assume good faith in EVERYONE, if I'm reading the policy correctly. --InShaneee 20:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that was sort of my point. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm appalled that anyone is calling an online content dispute a "Holy War". Millions of people have died in real Holy Wars. That's like calling the New Years Userbox deletion "The Userbox Holocaust". --Cyde Weys 20:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

• For those late to the party, this is where it started. Thatcher131 20:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

See Flame war#Holy wars --Carnildo 20:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, now that Mackensen has speedy-deleted the template under T1, I'm sure that everything will calm down. (rolls eyes) Everybody, brace for impact — it's going to be New Year's all over again. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It was dividing people in a big way...I'd consider that 'divisive'. --InShaneee 20:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

... nnnno it wasn't. Cyde and Gmaxwell having fun with the content at the expense of everyone who put it on their page was being divisive. There is absolutely nothing divisive about the content that was at {{User Christian}}. JDoorjam Talk 20:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah — the only divisiveness came about when Cyde and Gmaxwell started their joke. The same thing could be done to any userbox, not just political or religious ones. To take an example at random, Template:User male could be replaced with an essay on biological sex differences and the sociological deconstruction of gender. (Of course, I wouldn't do that, because unlike some people I respect WP:POINT.) I really think this was ill-considered. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Which, of course, comes back to the issue of userboxes. Should they be wiped off the face of the earth? No. Should they be subst:'d? Yes. After all, this is an encyclopaedia, and saying "This User is a Christian" is unencyclopaedic (although I find Cyde's version still too restrictive in its definition). As for size restrictions on userboxes - have a look at the one at the bottom of David Gerard's page. Now that's a userbox. Guettarda 21:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Listen, I agree that userboxes should be subst:ed. I just don't think that this is the way to go about it. If we're going to subst: all userboxes, then let's formulate an appropriate policy and do it. This maneuver (starting an argument, and then deleting the template because it's divisive) smacks to me of pushing someone into the mud and then condemning him for being dirty. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

For historical purposes, it was RexM's fault for editing it to say "This user claims to be a Christian". Having said that, despite how hilarious the Gmaxwell & Cyde version of the userbox was (I miss the animated crucifix; I'm actually considering using the userbox in my userspace, although I really am a Christian), they were definitely violating WP:POINT. I won't go as far as WP:VANDAL, but this was definitely disruption (even if meant well, and done in an absolutely hilarious manner). Johnleemk | Talk 14:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to hear from Cyde and Gmaxwell why they thought a userbox was an appropriate place for an essay on Christianity, with a big animated crucifix gif, no less. Thatcher131 21:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Um, this is all well and good, but now that the userbox has been axed, shouldn't this debate move on to WP:DRVU? –Abe Dashiell 21:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Just like to point out that we still have Template:User Catholic, Template:User Protestant, Template:User Muslim, Template:User Buddhist, Template:User Jewish, and probably a lot of other ones. If "This user is a Christian" is division, then all of these are, too. Either we need to delete them all, or an infobox saying "This user is a Christian" needs to be reinstated. — BrianSmithson 21:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to let folks know that I've substed the userbox on all the user pages it was used on. I can do the others too, if people want them gone from Template space. I've expressed my opinion on the edit war itself already on the WikiEN mailing list, so I won't repeat it here. It's not particularly polite, anyway. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Exactly what should happen, frankly. Substed code on a userpage isn't subject to anyone's petty whims. I can't say I'm happy about the last 24 hours. Mackensen (talk) 00:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I've listed the template at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Userbox debates#Template:User Christian. The debate can move there. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

No legit T1. Nothing to debate.Geni 03:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Although the debate over whether the template should be kept on WP has moved elsewhere I think there is a larger problem that has been glossed over: Cyde and Gmaxwell were irresponsible and created a debate unnecessarily. Their claims that the changes were made to the templates out of "good faith" to preserve NPOV are laughable and I think that as admins they should know better. Can the fact that they seem to be getting out of this unscathed indicate that other admins are endorsing this sort of thing?Reverie 07:58, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I've got to agree with Reverie here. At DRV/U, some users have pointed out that that page isn't the appropriate place for discussion of Cyde and Gmaxwell's behavior. Although many admins and other users have agreed that the affair was a WP:POINT violation, Gmaxwell is continuing to maintain that his sole intention was a concern for NPOV. I don't think that a heavy sanction is warranted (especially if he has the decency to apologise, as Cyde has done), but perhaps something should be done to show that this sort of thing isn't appropriate behavior. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:William M. Connolley

Is this a satisfactory way an administrator should respond like? Who has got the authority to judge whether or not there's such a need? — Instantnood 21:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

...I'd say it's perfectly good sense to not edit the archives, unless something had been archived prematurely. Even then, often simply starting the debate anew with a link to the old threat can be done. --InShaneee 21:27, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

What I did was to add a link from the archive to where the discussion has continued. I was not responding on the archived page itself. I don't have much opinion on whether archived entries can be edited, and I'm in fact seeking for comment on whether user:William M. Connolley's response is a satisfactory one, as from an administrator. — Instantnood 21:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

You could either

Take out a white glove and slap him across the face while loudly proclaiming your demand for satisfaction

or

Start a user RfC.

but asking a dozen different people to come pay attention to you on the 256k administrators bickerboard is not going to accomplish anything. SchmuckyTheCat 21:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Not that the above comment is very productive either. 222.166.160.95 17:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that WMC is beginning to lose patience with you Instantnood, and I'd agree with his statement (considering I too feel you've been trolling). --Syrthiss 15:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

He just did what he thought right, and has never shown any intention to look into the details. He then used the rollback button, an administrator's priviledge, to delete my messages at his talk page. He claimed I was trolling, and blocked me for three hours. Is that what people should expected from an administrator? Are administrators given such extent of discretionary power to do whatever they want to do, despite the fact that they should act according to what are stated in the official policies and guidelines? — Instantnood 18:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Disagreement with SlimVirgin Over Removal of Talk Page Comments, Removal of Unreplied-To Comments, Etc.

SlimVirgin removed User:203.122.215.44's comments on the Wikitruth talk page. Please note that the text of the edit description is a standard rollback message. I reverted same when I noticed , per WP:TPG ("Avoid deleting comments on talk pages, particularly comments made by others") and WP:VAN ("Deleting the comments of other users from article Talk pages, or deleting entire sections thereof, is generally considered vandalism"). I posted a note to SlimVirgin's talk page asking her not to do same, reminding her of the policy violations in a rather mild way .

SlimVirgin's response stated the removal was because the comments were made by a banned user, and that I should have assumed good faith. I responded, "Your response seems to be based upon the following: first, that I am able to swiftly connect a post signed as 203.122.215.44 with a user named Zordrac; second, that assuming I knew 203.122.215.44 was Zordrac, that I would know he was banned by the Arbitration Committee; third, that it is appropriate to remove anonymous comments; and fourth, that somehow not making these assumptions is a violation of WP:AGF. WP:AGF also quite clearly states, 'ssuming good faith also does not mean that no action by editors should be criticized, it only means that one should not ascribe said action to malice.' I don't believe I ascribed malice to you at any point, just criticism."

SlimVirgin replied, "I'm not going to argue with you about it. When you see an admin removing material, assume there is a reason, and don't assume the admin is a vandal. Just because you're not familiar with the reason doesn't mean it doesn't exist." She directed me to make further replies on her talk page, or else she wouldn't see it. (See Misplaced Pages's recommended reply policy, which this counters.)

Following her request to make further replies on her talk page, I went there. I stated that her lack of description in the edit description did not assist editors in WP:AGF, and that absent that, it was difficult to assume good faith when witnessing an act that is quite literally a textbook example of vandalism. I also asked her if she could provide a cite as to policy that allowed removal of anonymous edits that were suspected to have come from a banned user, as I could find no such policy. I also noted I had trouble with the way she phrased her response.

She blanked that section of the talk page with the edit description "unbelievable". I posted a note to her page citing Misplaced Pages policy regarding blanking unreplied-to items on a personal talk page . She blanked this response, too .

I solicit administrators' opinions on the following issues:

First, does policy exist that allows administrators to remove talk page comments made by people suspected to be banned users? If so, can you please provide the policy cites, which SlimVirgin was unwilling to do?

Second, was I to somehow swiftly connect a post signed as 203.122.215.44 with a user named Zordrac; know that 203.122.215.44 was Zordrac (or was suspected of same); know Zordrac was banned by the Arbitration Committee; and know that removal of his comments was permissible, all on my own? And was my failure to do so assuming bad faith?

Third, is SlimVirgin's statement that I did not assume good faith correct? "Yelling 'Assume Good Faith' at people does not excuse you from explaining your actions," says WP:AGF, and as the earlier-quoted example outlines, criticism does not constitute assuming bad faith; I did not ascribe malice.

Fourth, has SlimVirgin conducted herself incivilly in her responses to my actions and in her repeated blanking of her talk page? I believe she could have been much less prickly in her handling of this matter.

Fifth, is this the appropriate forum for this query? I do not think this matter is serious enough to go higher in the dispute resolution chain, but if the Mediators' Cabal or Mediation Committee is a more appropriate venue, I can inquire there. I doubt that the Arbitration Committee is appropriate, but I am not well-versed in the dispute resolution areas of Misplaced Pages, so would appreciate others' feelings on this issue.

I appreciate your responses in advance. — WCityMike (talk • contribs • where to reply) 01:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you should go straight to the arbitration committee with this one, WCM. SlimVirgin 02:02, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

WCityMike, I implore you to exercise common sense rather than following a rigid application of policy and guideline pages. If you wanted to know why SlimVirgin rolled back an edit like that, you should have asked her instead of accusing her in the first place; once it was explained, you should have gone ahead and assumed SV was pretty good at identifying the banned user by his editing style; once your campaign got to the point where SV was removing you from her talk page, you should have gone "no harm has been done and I am now annoying somebody" instead of posting this here. One grape's opinion. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

...."assumed SV was pretty good at identifying the banned user by his editing style"....that scares me! For the record, I am a new in here and have delt with SlimVirgin, and she was approachable and civil with me.--Backroomlaptop 05:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Sixth, please try to find some real problems on the wiki to engage with instead of that tiny microscopic at this distance quite invisible affront. Believe me, we have them. Bishonen | talk 02:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC).

Wait a minute, you were kidding, right? Bishonen | talk 02:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC).

I'd like to clarify your positions. Are you saying then that it's perfectly permissible then for administrators to be incivil (not only SlimVirgin but now Bishonen) despite WP:CIVIL, blank their talk pages without responding to unanswered questions despite WP:TPG, remove material from webpages talk pages without indicating their reasons why despite WP:VAN and WP:TPG, and instruct editors who disagree with their actions that they shouldn't criticize, inquire, or revert due to WP:AGF? — WCityMike (talk • contribs • where to reply) 02:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

WCityMike, normally reminding a user of policy is the appropriate approach, but when the user is an admin, you should probably assume that they know about policy. The best course of action here would have been to ask SV why she was removing the comments. That way there wouldn't have been any problem. I don't think anyone's setting out to be uncivil, but it can be frustrating when these sorts of issues snowball into a big issue when they shouldn't have been problematic at all.

For the record, 203.122.215.44 is almost certainly Internodeuser (Zordrac was a sock of that user): same ISP, same interests (Brandt, Wikitruth, Misplaced Pages Review) and same style. --bainer (talk) 02:58, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Which can be confirmed here: . -- Malber (talk · contribs) 16:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It's interesting how the responses so far have so avidly focused on what I could have done to prevent the situation from escalating. Have any of you looked at it from the viewpoint of the average, well-meaning editor who may not have an intimate knowledge of the Wikipedian bureaucracy? How about, for example, if SlimVirgin had put a edit description that actually described what she was doing? I can tell you I would have never reverted her change if it had said, "Reverted additions to Talk page made by banned user posting anonymously."

Or let's just say she didn't do that, but posit a different response that didn't come across as a "just trust us" pat on the head. Something like, "I appreciate your attempt to safeguard Misplaced Pages policy, but I actually knew what I was doing there: the user posting anonymously was a user whose account had been banned but who was posting anonymously. If next time you could just check with me prior to reverting my changes, it'll save us all a lot of work. Thanks. -- SlimVirgin".

I can absolutely assure you that if the first had happened, I'd never have reverted, and if the second had happened, I'd have actually probably responded with something akin to, "Oh, geez, sorry about that. Lesson learned. Have a good evening."

Even if she hadn't done the above, if she didn't then refuse to talk about the issue on my talk page, specifically instruct me to head over to her talk page, and then eliminate the discussion outright on her page while describing it using a snark edit description, I probably would've just chalked the situation as an unpleasant experience, and gone on surfing or doing something differently this evening.

I understand that as admins, you want to express solidarity with each other. That sort of kinship is admirable if looked at with the right viewpoint. But I just find it really disturbing that the response here tonight has been seemingly that it is perfectly acceptable for an admin to specifically violate several policies and guidelines, and then, when that violation causes confusion, chide the user as if it was their fault. It implies that once that magic RfA gets granted, you've suddenly got a lot more social weight in disagreements. (Of course, I assume it doesn't hurt if the person has about five thousand barnstars.)

And then when the user comes here to try to hash things out politely without clogging up the dispute resolution process, instead get a lot of snark and "shoo, fly" stuff tossed at them -- thanks, Bishonen -- is even more disturbing.

Spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, y'know. A little kindness and courtesy can go a helluva long way. — WCityMike (talk • contribs • where to reply) 03:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Neither Bishonen nor SlimVirgin were incivil. Civility is not "be totally as kind as posible all the time and give everyone hugs and kisses". Sure, we could all be somewhat more polite at times, but there is no policy stating that being even slightly less and sweetness and light is unacceptable, far from it. Now please, move off of this absurdly miniscule topic and go do something more productive. Forgive & Forget, I suppose.--Sean Black 06:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, agreed, but the rule isn't applied consistently. I wouldn't even particularly care if that is what it said, as long as it was treated as saying that all the time instead of whenever it suits the needs of any particular admin. Rogue 9 13:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

While different users have different views of "civility", I might add that this should be viewed not so much a matter of policy, but a suggestion. If SlimVirgin had done this, she would not have had to deal with all of this. It isn't that she had done anything wrong, it is just that it would have been helpful to her to be more civil. A similar view would have prevented the whole Danny/Eloquence issue - being less abrasive in reversions, even when the other user is clearly at fault, can go a long way toward keeping such situations from happening. --Philosophus 01:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Move along, nothing to see... FeloniousMonk 03:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you serious? This demonstrates a great problem with Misplaced Pages, namely the arbitrary blankings, protections and deletions of history by the administrators, and their unwillingness to discuss their actions. Please realize, if this is not stopped soon it could well spell the death sentence of Misplaced Pages as a "free as in speech" encyclopedia. Meneth 12:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think he is serious, and as usual he's wearing the blinkers that come with power. Oh mighty admins, if you might deign to take advice from a mere peon such as I, remember that patronizing someone tends to piss him off. SlimVirgin handled this in exactly the wrong way, and the treatment of the resulting complaint is only compounding matters. Rogue 9 13:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this issue is dead. I'm not an admin but just to throw a piece of evidence in. Zordac has admitted that he wrote the post in question. So SV was right about the blanking. jbolden1517 14:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Why not simply ban the entire Internode IP range? -- Malber (talk · contribs) 16:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet policy being rewritten by Zephram Stark

I've protected WP:SOCK as it was undergoing a major rewrite to redefine "sock puppet" more tightly, and it appears that at least one of the editors involved in the rewrite, Team Shocker (talk · contribs), was a sock puppet of User:Zephram Stark. I suspect at least one of the others was Zephram too. I've reverted to the pre re-write version. SlimVirgin 06:53, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. Sockpuppets rewriting the sockpuppet policy. Great. FeloniousMonk 07:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I know. What a cheek. He was, of course, rewriting it so that sock puppets would be slightly harder to block e.g. he changed that sock puppet accounts may be blocked indefinitely, rather than should be, and that only "uninvolved" admins may do the blocking, and other similar tweaks in his favor. :-D SlimVirgin 09:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Special:Undelete/Von Neumann's catastrophe. It seemed like the right thing to do in this case. — May. 14, '06 <freakofnur_xture|talk>

I'm curious why his block was changed from indefinite to six months. I announced a "community ban" a couple months ago on WP:AN and asked for anyone opposed to speak up; nobody did; is he somehow not worthy of a community ban now because...he's doing t even more? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't realize it had been changed. He should definitely be banned indefinitely. SlimVirgin 14:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Just an oversight, I imagine. Freak? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I've changed it back because it must have been a mistake. Zephram is banned for a thousand eternities. A Sunfazer (talk · contribs) changed the tag from indefinite to six months and reverted me when I changed it back, so now I'm wondering whether that's him too. SlimVirgin 14:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I dunno much about the guy, but I did notice that recently he asked that a certain article that's been used to attack another Wikipedian be unprotected; that raised my antennae. · Katefan0 /poll 15:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I dunno much about the guy either, but Sunfazer's very first edit was to apologize for vandalism, and CheckUser indicates he's been doing quite a bit of vandalizing and sockpuppeting since then. Perhaps this explains his similar interest in trying to weaken strictures against sockpuppeting. Jayjg 16:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I wasn't paying attention. It's been fixed. — May. 14, '06 <freakofnur_xture|talk>

I don't quite understand this. Are you reverting to the pre-rewrite version until you find what edits were made by the illegal sock puppets? If so, why didn't you just revert to the initial rewritten version by Dijxtra? This reversion completely messes up the new terminology and processes that are being used (besides making me a sock puppet again). --Philosophus 19:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

WP:PP-- "Admins must not protect pages they are actively engaged in editing, except in the case of simple vandalism." I don't see any potential for future vandalism attacks on WP:SOCK now that we know the rewriting was being done by Zephram Stark. Thus, there is no reason to protect the page. Ashibaka tock 19:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason to not keep it protected for the time being. It's not like it's a heavy traffic article. FeloniousMonk 20:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't mean that the protected page policy is suspended. That policy is what prevents admins from protecting a page at their favourite version. Ashibaka tock 20:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ashibaka has gone ahead and unprotected without even mentioning it to me, so I've reprotected. I don't want to start a wheel war, but I find that kind of intervention unhelpful. I was actively engaged in editing it only with a view to trying to undo the damage, and in any event, any admin can protect a page against banned users. It's otherwise not a page I've ever paid much attention to; if it had been, I'd have noticed the sockpuppetry earlier.

I'd like to keep it protected until we establish which other accounts, if any, might have been Zephram Stark. I'll make a request today and it shouldn't take long. As for which version to revert to, I believe the rewrite was instigated by one of the sockpuppets and it changed key parts of the policy; everyone involved in the rewrite was either a sockpuppet or a newish editor so far as I can tell, and I don't recall seeing any attempts to involve others in the rewrite. As the page is policy, a broader consensus would be needed for any major changes. SlimVirgin 20:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Protecting it to analyze and undo the damage is reasonable. FeloniousMonk 20:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've rolled it back to the pre re-write version, because I don't want to get into trying to judge which edits were okay and which not. If some of the changes were legitimate and if there's a broad consensus for them, they can always be re-added. SlimVirgin 20:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I requested a check user and the only two Zephram-related accounts are Team Shocker, confirmed, and Dragon's Blood, not confirmed but not ruled out by technical evidence. It was one of them who suggested the rewrite in the first place and both were actively engaged in forming it on various talk pages, so the new version should be regarded as thoroughly tainted. As both accounts are blocked, I'll unprotect shortly if no one minds. SlimVirgin 23:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin resolved an editing dispute between herself and two other editors by calling them sock puppets and banning them without any evidence. That is the only thing that happened here. When people questioned her about her charges, she claimed to have requested a check user. No such check user request exists through the proper channels , nor is there anything in her contributions to suggest that she requested a check user anywhere else on Misplaced Pages in the three and a half hours between when she claims to have made the request and when she claims to have heard the response, "not confirmed but not ruled out by technical evidence." Because there is no reason for my block, I, User:Dragon's Blood, would like to be reinstated, at which time I intend to launch a full investigation into the misconduct of User:SlimVirgin and User:freakofnurture (for deleting the article he mentions without an AfD). --4.238.85.76 19:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I see that the main reason for reverting of the WP:SOCK page is because it was rewritten by a sock puppet. That is not correct. It was rewritten by me: . And I am not a sock puppet. Or at least nobody ever accused me of being one. Therefore, reverting of WP:SOCK has no real reason. The change was, BTW, announced on the talk page of the WP:SOCK and discussed for 2 weeks. If you have any objections to new version of the page, please state it. Reverting the effort of several users just because someone falsly accused me of being a sock puppet is not right. I am just asking for somebody to tell me what's wrong with new version of the page and all I get is an edit war. Have I lost my mind? What do I have to do to get an answer to my question: what's wrong with the rewrite I made? --Dijxtra 21:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Um, the rewrite of the sockpuppet policy was influenced by sockpuppets. FeloniousMonk 22:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

In what way? In a disruptive one? Are you telling me that if a sock puppet says it's OK to breathe, I'm not supposed to do that? Again: what's wrong with the rewrite? This time please attack the content, not the contributor. Isn't that one of main principles of Misplaced Pages? --Dijxtra 22:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Not when the contributor is a banned user. The line is drawn at that point. Mackensen (talk) 22:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't get this one correctly. Your sentence "Not when the contributor is a banned user." is an answer to my "Are you telling me that if a sock puppet says it's OK to breathe, I'm not supposed to do that?" question? Or "Isn't that one of main principles of Misplaced Pages?"? Let me remind you that this is MY work. Not work of banned user. You are attacking ME. Would you please refrain from doing that? Would you, please, attack my work. Not me. --Dijxtra 22:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You're reverting to the work of a banned user. I can't support that. I'm sorry if you're offended but that's just the way it is. Editing on behalf of a banned user is serious business. Mackensen (talk) 22:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Aham. And, if I revert to my last revision, nobody is going to revert it back? I mean, why reverting the whole rewrite? Why not just the part which was written by the evil guy? BTW, note that I'm not reverting. I reverted only once. --Dijxtra 22:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, for starters, I see little evidence that there's any consensus behind this change. Given the number of CheckUsers protesting the change, I'd say it's a bad idea. Given the number of senior administrators asking you to ease off because they think you've made a mistake, I think you should listen. Mackensen (talk) 22:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Fine. I'm dropping it. Note: you have to do something with WP:SUSPSOCK. Dunno, delete it or something. --Dijxtra 22:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Punishment

Can any admin, acting alone, issue sanctions (official warnings), or dismissals (blocking), or even executions (permanent blocking) to any user with whom he or she disagrees? Is this done fairly? Is this also the right forum in which to ask this question? Thank you. Wallie 13:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

There are certain things that are clearly outlined by policy that allow an individual decision on blocking. Warnings are a thing anyone can do, administrator or not, although they're worth only as much as the person issuing them is. Permanent blocks can be issued by an individual only in very, very well defined cases, and each of those requires acquiescence by the general community. None of these can be initiated simply for disagreement. Disagreement triggers nothing. All of these require certain actions, not opinions, except for blocking under the naming policy (User:Booger sorts of things, where the block is when the user picks an inappropriate user name). Otherwise, a Request for Comment (RfC) needs to take place on content disputes, a Request for Mediation on personality disputes or disruption disputes, and then actual blocks for life and limitations on editing priviledges come only from the Arbitration Committee. Geogre 13:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Well there are cases when admins can block from life that don't need the ArbCom to rule (Community bans, vandal only accounts etc.) I agree that admins cannot block only for disagreeing, but without seeing the example you are thinking of (assuming you have something in mind) then I can't really give a full comment to this. Petros471 13:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

There is no provision for "punishment" of any sort in Misplaced Pages policy or practice. The purpose of blocks, bans, page protection, and other such administrative procedures is to prevent specific harms to the project. It is never acceptable to use such means to "punish" an individual for perceived moral or personal slights. Admins are servants of the project, empowered to use certain technical means to protect it and to clean up after vandals and other problems. They are neither police nor judges, and do not have the power to punish anyone. --FOo 00:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

If that is so, then why are people blocked for violating 3-rr hours and hours after the disagreements have ended? The dispute is long over, no editing is being done, and yet the admins issue blocks, sometimes long ones. - Drogo Underburrow 13:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

In my experience, they generally don't, although it does happen occasionally. If you have violated 3RR, and haven't been blocked within twelve hours, you probably won't be blocked. Reports of 3RR from the day before (or earlier) are not looked on kindly. AnnH ♫ 15:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Amibidhrohi, reported for 3-rr 23:33, 9 May 2006, punished over 15 hours later, at 15:09, 10 May 2006 blocked for 3 days for being a repeat offender. (The fact that blocks are longer for repeat offenders is punishing them for crimes). Deiaemeth 09:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC) gets blocked by admin at 20:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC), ten hours later; How can blocking someone ten hours after editing has stopped be anything other than punishment? There is more, but its just repetition, I've made my point. Seems some of 3-RR enforcement is to stop immediate problems, but most is after the fact punishment. Drogo Underburrow 15:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

In addition to the above, see Misplaced Pages:Blocking_policy and Misplaced Pages:Administrators. --Aquillion 07:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It may happen, but it doesn't happen often (and shouldn't). Regarding Amibidhrohi, the maximum block allowed for 3RR is 24 hours, so something's odd there. I suspect the blocking admins were thinking in terms 3RR as a form of disruption rather than per se. Without having looked at the history, it seems that his/her disruption went on for a substantial length of time. Henry 15:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The point is, it's outside of the job of administrators to contemplate how or whether to "punish" people. Acts of punishment presume the existence of authority over others, which Misplaced Pages administrators do not possess. They hold only increased technical power over certain aspects of the Misplaced Pages computer system -- not juridical authority over editors.

Acts such as blocking editors need to be justified on the basis of preventing specific harm to the project, not on any basis such as what a person deserves (revenge), what they need to convince them of the wrongness of their ways (reform) or what would discourage others from offending (deterrence). --FOo 03:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Locke Cole's userpage

Locke_Cole (talk · contribs)'s userpage has frequently been subject to deletion, under m:Right to vanish. However, Locke has so far failed to perform the second part of the "how to exercise one's right to vanish from an online community" procedure, to whit, actually vanishing. Earlier this evening I restored his userpage and talkpage because, as I understand it, one cannot assert the right to vanish but continue to edit. I think Locke has to decide whether he wants to remain on Misplaced Pages or not. However, my restoration was quickly reverted (oh, no! Spectre of a wheel war!! What shall we do?????). Could we come to a decision on precisely how Locke Cole's userspace is to be treated, please? This indecision is getting tiresome. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 14:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The "right to vanish" isn't a process that has to be followed exactly in order to gain the "privilege" of having one's user page deleted. He's fully entitled to have his user page deleted whether or not he ceases to edit. If he wants the page deleted, delete it and leave it be. Whether or not he continues to edit is entirely up to him. Kelly Martin (talk) 14:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Is it appropriate for a user to request deletion of his talkpage to get rid of unsightly (but quite appropriate) warnings, ArbCom notices, etc.? That's what appears to be happening here. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 14:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I was about to add the same thing. Locke Cole has an outstanding ArbCom case and his talk page archives show all sorts of warnings and disputes which appear to me to be relevant. We tick people off for deleting warnings from their talk pages, but in this case it appears that a user has been able to eliminate his entire talk page history with the blessing of an administrator, while continuing to be an active editor. I'd feel slightly differently if he was just editing stuff related to the ArbCom case prior to giving up and disappearing, but that doesn't seem to be the case. --ajn (talk) 14:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I personally don't see why we make such a big deal about removing warnings from user pages, and think we need to stop making such a big deal about it as it's mean to newbies and generally not a friendly practice. And I think at this point everyone knows what they need to know about Locke Cole. IMO, we should not rely on user talk pages as a history of conflict for a user. Perhaps we need an administrative history page for a user that is only visible to admins? Kelly Martin (talk) 15:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

An administrative history page for users is an excellent idea because the worst users, the ones most likely to attract admin attention, are the quickest to remove warnings. SlimVirgin 16:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a balance and common sense to be applied, immediate removal of warnings tends to suggest (and in some cases certainly is) attempting to hide the warning, so a subsequent warner may be unaware of the previous warning. On the other hand forcing retention of warnings forever seems to serve no purpose. --pgk 16:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't make a big deal of it myself, and I agree that after a reasonable amount of time has elapsed, people ought to be able to remove anything they like from their talk page (although this goes against the guideline that you don't own 'your' talk page). However, Misplaced Pages:Vandalism says "Removing warnings for vandalism or other issues from one's talk page may also be considered vandalism." That's not a dead or obscure piece of policy - I've seen a few other admins quoting it at transgressors in the last week. If there's consensus to do away with it, fine, but we ought to do away with it properly. I also find it odd, to say the least, that someone who is halfway through an ArbCom case can announce he's leaving the project (while plainly not leaving the project) and have his user and talk pages deleted. Again, if there's consensus that people should be allowed to request deletion of "their" talk page, there ought to be a process to do it without having to dishonestly claim that they are clearing off. --ajn (talk) 18:49, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Kelly. Locke Cole should be free to have his userpage in a deleted state. How he handles his talk page is also pretty much up to him and there's no need to make a big deal about removing warnings. Haukur 15:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with this. A user who has been frequently involved in runins with policy, and has been frequently warned, shouldn't delete those warnings from their Talk page. If an uninvolved admin encounters bad behavior and goes to their Talk page and sees that they have been warned previously, then they can just issue a block. But if those warnings are gone, the uninvolved admin would think that the bad behavior is a first-time occurrence, and would just issue a warning. This could happen over and over again. User:Zoe| 20:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

User pages may be deleted at any time. User talk pages should not be deleted, and his talk page should be restored. User subpages may be deleted at the user's request. — Knowledge Seeker দ 23:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

In particular, a user's talk page is primarily made up of edits by other users that the user in question should not have control over deletion. These should not be removed from the contributions of other editors. This deletion does not satisfy any criterion for speedy deletion, nor is it an obvioulsy appropriate action. I intend to undelete the talk page. If deletion is desired, it should be requested at Miscellany for deletion. — Knowledge Seeker দ 01:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, it should be pointed out that m:Right to vanish just talks about removing personal information; there's nothing in there that makes an argument for a user having their user talk page hard-deleted wholesale, other users' comments included. --Aquillion 07:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The talk page should be blanked if the user wants to disappear. If Locke Cole wants his userpage gone, it should be okay, but the arbcom notices, etc. have to go somewhere -- and in this case, the talk page makes sense. So if Locke wants his userpage gone, he has to keep the arbcom notices on his talk. At least, that's how I think. Johnleemk | Talk 08:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think there's also an important distinction to be drawn here between blanking the talk page, and deleting it. I don't have a problem with Locke myself, but he's almost certain to be banned for a month as the outcome of the ArbCom case. If he really is going to treat that ban as the end of his time here, I don't have a particular problem with deleting his personal information as per m:Right to vanish. If he's going to come back in a month's time and resume where he left off, then his talk page history needs to be around so that anyone he comes into conflict with, not just admins, can see it. --ajn (talk) 08:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I consider the above discussion sufficient justification and will restore the deleted talk page. — Knowledge Seeker দ 17:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Locke's response

I love this. I love the assumption of bad faith by MarkGallagher (talk · contribs); which warnings were I trying to avoid Mark? The warnings given out by the troll Zzzzz (talk · contribs)? The single ArbCom notice (which was long since archived)? I love the assumption of bad faith by Zoe (talk · contribs); I ask the same of you as I did of Mark; which warnings? The ones from the troll? You can't be serious. Any serious warnings (which were few and far between; most non-cabalers seem to think I do good things here) are very very old and stale. If someone is using them as an excuse to block me, they'd be acting punitively, not preventively.

As for Knowledge Seeker (talk · contribs), it's amazing to me that you can twist what is an obvious indicator of support of my talk pages deletion as an excuse to undelete the page. Yes, I'm treating the one month ban as my cue to leave; it's clear to me that if things are this skewed, there's no hope for Misplaced Pages. It'll need to be forked to something where there's no cabal, and certainly nothing resembling the ArbCom we have here (love the fact that even during the proposed decision/voting phase only two arbitrators have taken time to respond to questions (one of them less than helpfully); tip to wannabe arbitrators: don't run for the job if your intent is only to rubber-stamp other peoples proposals).

I would like to ask all here to kindly respect Locke's decision to quit (Which I hope he rethinks and comes back once that harsh punitive one month ban is over). And just for the records (if anybody should care): he is banned by ArbCom for a month for "stalking" someone who was found to have caused disruption (in the exact same ArbCom case and a prior case). You might want to rethink for a second how that may feel on Locke's side. Thank you for your consideration. Best regards, --Ligulem 08:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Uncivility report

Sorry but can someone please tell this User not to threaten and terrorise me like he did here and I quote: "...if you don't clean your above linked shit (yes, SHIT) from anywhere you left it...". With respect to his comment the ex-USSR images that the conflict is going on about concrens everybody. --Kuban Cossack 12:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

This report initially posted to WP:AN by the author has been moved by me (Irpen) here where it belongs.

I would like to point the attention to my previous post about the same user's (AlexPU (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)) maintaining an attack page and perpetually unleashing uncivil diatribes there as well as all around Wiki

Another warning that followed apparently was also useless (it was the 9th(!) warning to no effect, as follows: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 8, 9).

A 24-hour block and 9(!) warnings apparently have no effect on the user. When his last block expired his entries were full of threats (), name calling ( and ), more threats (), addressing opponents by nationalities (), other Russophobic entries (), and a threat to support another user in an unrelated debate just to aggravate his opponents ).

With 9 warnings and uneffective 24-hr block I would like to let it be known how the situation is. Trying to cool him down by so many people already makes starting an RfC useless. If I post this to ArbCom page, my feeling is that the vote would be ("reject, too obvious, just block him") since ArbCom is already slow due to an overload with much more complex cases. So, where do we go from now? --Irpen 19:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

ArbComs primarily object cases these days because other attempts have not been made to resolve the situation, which is what an RfC is for. It could allow the user to get a wider perspective of how his behavior is viewed, as well as some idea of what could happen if he continues. --InShaneee 00:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Kuban kazak being himself highly incivil (and being blocked for this repeatedly) was the one who initiated the conflict by making incorrect and provocative claim on behalf of "whole Ukrainian community" . Speaking of AlexPU and Irpen they are both longstanding contributors, and also edit-warriers, preoccupied by rather old insults. KPbIC 22:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Please don't disinform the admin noticeboard I was blocked TWICE, first time for calling someone a troll, second time for the Image tag deprecation in a reaction which through all of us into outrage, both times I have apologised in the aftermath to the respective party. However you might want to mention on how long you kept an anonymous account and used your dynamic IP to edit war and thus bypass 3RR. --Kuban Cossack 23:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Links and diffs about preoccupation of Irpen with AlexPU would be helpful. If there are none (and I claim so), there is nothing to speak about. Kuban kazak's insults were much softer (and I chastised him for them myself) and resulted in blocks whose time he served. Thanks largely to my repetitive calls, this user is much better now. If you have anything of substance to comment on the links and diffs of AlexPU above, say so. Otherwise, this looks like an attempt to defend an editor simply because he pushes the "right POV" despite his being a major pain to everyone here. Once he reforms himself I have no objection to his presense. He needs to get the message about behavior and he didn't get until now. If blocking him would help, he needs a block. If it would take an ArbCom action, I would go for it. If you could teach him out of it, go ahead. The evidence presented above speaks for itself. --Irpen 23:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

KPbIC, the flaw in your claim of "initiating the conflict" is chronological. AlexPU got back from his block on 8 May, and the edit by KK you're referring to is timestamped 14 May . That means that all those incivilities by AlexPU precede the edit by KK you're referring to...

And no matter the cause of the conflict, there are no excuses for AlexPU, as NPA should be the stance... -- Grafikm 23:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I ever interacted with User:AlexPU and, judging by the above comments, I don't think I would. The user is clearly disruptive. I suggest all involved parties to move further discussion of his behaviour to Requests for comment/AlexPU and then, if need be, to ArbCom. WP:ANI is not a place to discuss this, as no admins' intervention is likely to keep the guy at bay. --Ghirla 07:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The point is that he was contacted by so many users who warned him to calm down that I perceive an RfC (whose goal is merely to request for comments from more people) a waste of time. ALready enough people commented to him at his and article's talk. There is no need to solicit for more opinions to the fact that keeping it civil is good and calling others "motherfuckers" is bad. ArbCom is fine with me if there is no action from here. I just thought that this is too plain obvious for an ArbCom to waste time. Almost every talk page entry by the user is an insult. What's more we need. Why bother ArbCom? But if no admin action or advise will follow, I am prepared for an ArbCom if others think that the ArbCom doesn't have anything better to do than deal with plain obvious WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:FAITH gross violators. --Irpen 07:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestion of starting an RfC, as this user does appear to have some serious behavior issues. --InShaneee 00:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Procedure for Young Children on WP?

I've looked around and haven't seen a specific policy on this, so I'll ask here. What is the policy on very young children editing Misplaced Pages? Currently a user named User:Elmo12456 (alternate accounts: User:SetRochelewsad, User:SetRochele, User:Elmo12456♣, probably others) has been editing the dinosaur articles on WP. We immediately noticed the articles were mostly all bad info, and we've been working to correct the mistakes. Some users were originally labelling this as "vandalism", but these do seem to be good-faith edits, just horribly incorrect. In many, or even most instances, every word is incorrect (for example WP's article on Libycosaurus. We've tried, without success, to contact this user. He doesn't seem able to reply to his messages, although we have left many for him. It has occurred to me that it's possible this is a young child, and I recently noticed this user has many accounts, one of which edited the article on Dora_the_Explorer, making me wonder if my child hypothesis is correct. I also wondered if this wasn't maybe a joke account after looking at his animation-filled graphics-overloaded user page. This user has quite a few edits, and they've almost all been reverted. Advice? Ideas? What's the policy?--Firsfron 02:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

There's alternate hypotheses besides "young child" that might be considered here. --Cyde Weys 02:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I had also considered "joke account" and "troll", but discared the later after two or three actually useful edits.--Firsfron 03:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't really what I meant. I meant that there could be some attribute of the person besides "young child" that explains the overall quality of the edits. --Cyde Weys 03:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You mean perhaps mentally retarded? I guess that is also possible.--Firsfron 03:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Treat them as normal users; don't baby them, just make it clear as you would to a vandal that this is in fact an encyclopedia and jokes are not allowed. Ashibaka tock 04:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the advice, Ashibaka. --Firsfron 17:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I notice that this user has Image:Toby.png on their userpage. Toby was a pet 'child-protection' project (or, I suspect, a joke) of User:Xiong, who left Misplaced Pages in mid-September of last year, complaining that it has been overrun by children; Toby was discussed, very lightly (and mostly just by Xiong) for all of a few weeks during that period, a month or so before User:Elmo12456 arrived. All those discussions were in ancient archives by the time User:Elmo12456 decided to add Toby to their userpage, so the fact that User:Elmo12456 even knew that Toby existed seems very unusual. --Aquillion 07:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The Toby thing "Toby is watching you!" creeps me out a little. It is strange that Elmo would have this, and his userpage is so overloaded with images and broken images that I originally thought it must be a joke account. --Firsfron 17:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ugh. If nothing else, his User page is a nightmare! User:Zoe| 17:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Actually, it was worse. There were fair use images on it that I since removed, since he didn't respond to his message to remove them himself.--Firsfron 17:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Child or not, he is screwing up pages and refuses to acknowledge policy and procedure. Block with extreme prejudice and destroy that userpage while you're at it. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 17:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

If the consensus is to block, I would need assistance, as I'm not an admin. If the consensus is to give him more warnings, I can of course do that.--Firsfron 17:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I have to concur with Aquillion's suspicions that this is actually a sockpuppet. Would a CheckUser be helpful here? --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly possible this is a sock, but I can't make much out of this. I think a CU could be useful.--Firsfron 20:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Gah! Is there a policy on excessive userboxes? This user has just added at least 115 additional userboxes to his page, in addition to the 50-100 he already had. Add that to the animated gifs and full-sized images, and my browser is close to crashing. Also, one of the userboxes states he rates his professors, so he's obviously not a kid. My 'young child' theory goes out the window!--Firsfron 23:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps WP:POINT? — Laura Scudder ☎ 23:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

He was up to 1,200 userboxes a short while ago. I was bold and took the libery of reverting and placing a note on his talk page explaining why. I hope that doesn't get me in hot water. Actually, I'm not sure of the count. I did a Word-aided count of his page and counted over 600 in the first half of his page. I'm only assuming there were 600 more buried in the second half. Many of the userboxes were duplicates, and many flat-out contradicted others. This appears to be some kind of joke or hoax account, IMO.--Firsfron 00:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Repeated attempts to rename "Objectivism_and_Homosexuality"

LaszloWalrus has made three attempts so far to move Objectivism and Homosexuality to Ayn Rand's views on homosexuality. I feel that this is a bad idea because the article explicitly deals with the views of Objectivism, not just its founder. Moreover, this move has been made without any sort of consensus, which is unfortunately a pattern I've noticed with this editor in the past. In fact, he's edit-warred over this article in the past and been blocked for it.

I'd like to head off any move-war here, and this seems to be the right place to post a notice to get the attention of anyone interested in helping. Al 06:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Inasmuch as Alienus and I are the only ones currently arguing over this issue, building a "consensus" would consist only of us both agreeing. Further, Ayn Rand's psychological views are NOT part of Objectivism, only her philosophical views are. In fact, Alienus has been blocked for edit warring over this article and has a history of blocks for personal attacks. LaszloWalrus 19:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to seek the opinions of interested third parties, either through a simple RFC or a notice on relevant pages. Al 19:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Disruptive revert war on Cuba

I have blocked Myciconia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Zleitzen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), KDRGibby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for 24 hours, all for a variety of tandem WP:3RR violations and general disruptive revert warring over Cuba (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). These four users should know better. --Cyde Weys 08:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Correction, KDRGibby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been blocked for one month for his violation of a personal attack parole, apparently. --Cyde Weys 08:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen unblocked because he had a relatively minor role in this. --Cyde Weys 22:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Napster ere

User:Napster ere (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) seems to be using his user page as some kind of on-line forum. But he's the only one making changes. His contribs are all to his user page and his talk page. -- Samir धर्म 09:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I'm surprised! WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL totally worked in this instance. --Cyde Weys 19:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments invited

A user has drawn my attention to a particular matter. I would request for comments.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Bhadani&diff=53292186&oldid=53213384
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Philwelch&diff=53291079&oldid=53290169

--Bhadani 12:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Samir and I have already made our peace over this issue. See User talk:Philwelch#No harm no foul. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 12:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

That is fine to learn, but not the point as we are not a private body, and so I would suggest that we wikipedians should be careful in the choice of our words. --Bhadani 13:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I was in the wrong. I apologize to Samir. I'm not sure what else you want, bringing this up after it's already been settled, but allow me to suggest that this matter is, in fact, settled. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 13:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

K. If there's anyone I've missed, let me just make a general statement: I apologize for my incivility earlier. I hope we can put this episode behind us. I have already taken back my initial remarks about Nathan in favor of simply agreeing with someone else who was far more eloquent than I was about what was essentially the same viewpoint. Now let's write an encyclopedia. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 14:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I just hope all admins aren't as foulmouthed and incivil.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 14:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Mbw15

I've permablocked Mbw15 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who has been leaving weird "I'm not WoW" messages on a fairly random selection of talk pages (, . It's probably the hotrocks vandal (who's been hanging around all morning, trying, amongst other things, to get his myriad of socks unblocked). A neverending source of weird trollery, this chap. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 13:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

One of the sockpuppets emailed me pleading me to unblock him saying that it is a school IP. The same IP, however, made this post User_talk:Kungfuadam#Unblock_me to my talk page.--Kungfu Adam 18:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add that I looked up the IP 66.25.132.168 and found out it's not even a school IP. It is a home Roadrunner Internet account, which means it is not a school.--Kungfu Adam 10:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Cyber/physical stalking

In view of certain recent edits by me to wikipedia, my family members, particularly my wife have expressed apprehension of cyber-stalking as well as physical-stalking. Their apprehensions are based on certain e-mails received in our family’s mail box. Accordingly, she desires that following four images uploaded by me be deleted:

• Image:Bank of India Chennai Main.jpg.jpg
• Image:An Inside View of a Bank of India Office.jpg
• Image:Bhadani In Early 1970s.jpg
• Image:Rashmi Bhadani Late 1970s.jpg

I as the uploader of the above images request for deletion. I shall upload the same/ other images as and when my family members gain confidence.

Regards and thanks. --Bhadani 14:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you orphan them first? Pages link there. RadioKirk talk to me 14:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, User:Philwelch decided to be WP:BOLD :) RadioKirk talk to me 14:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, they're deleted. Sorry to hear about the threats to your family's safety—I hope this is resolved soon. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 14:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I was highly stressed. Now, I am feeling a bit light. I shall continue my association with wikipedia. --Bhadani 15:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Freakofnurture move warring

Freakofnurture (talk · contribs) has moved more than a hundred pages related to Washington state highways based upon his unilateral interpretation of what the "correct" article names should be. His edit summary seems to indicate that he believes that this is some sort of game, the object of which is to "pwn" whoever he's determined his enemies to be. As User:Tawker notes, move warring on these pages while the matter is pending resolution is a blockable offense. As before, if nothing happens I'll assume that means it's okay for me to move the pages back. Thanks. —phh (/_c) 15:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Move warring is a blockable offense, as is any other kind of warring (wheel, revert, edit). My personal preference would be to leave the pages where they are *now* pending whether the parties in that proposed arbitration accept the arbitration. The statement supplied by Freakofnurture with a slightly incivil edit summary can be submitted to the arbitrators as evidence on the side of SPUI et al. Moving them back would just be another salvo in the move war, however objectionable the current naming is to the other side in the dispute. Just my opinion. --Syrthiss 15:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Freakofnurture at least appears to have a solid reference to base the move on. Is this reference in some way suspect? Kim Bruning 15:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The reference doesn't strike me as neccessarily relevant. Imagine Nevada's state highways are officially named "Nevada State Route XXX", as opposed to Washington's official "State Route YYY". Misplaced Pages reasonably might still prefer to use a uniform name scheme for all US state highways, so one of the official nomenclatures would have to be ignored. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats my read on the situation as well. --Syrthiss 15:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

No one is arguing that the reference is suspect. The point of dispute is whether "correct" should be the principle to apply in deciding what the article names should be (WP:NC(CN) gives several instances in which it is not). Regardless, the facts of the matter are that Freakofnurture is aware that this dispute is taking place, is aware (if he keeps an eye on this page, as all administrators should) that multiple admins have said that move warring on these pages is a blockable offense, yet chose to aggravate the move wars anyway. —phh (/_c) 15:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Especially seeing the length of the dispute and the RFAR, moving the pages again was inappropriate. Snoutwood (talk) 16:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

This is getting somewhat tiring. Could everybody at least agree upon not moving hundreds of pages around until it's clear what becomes of the ArbCom case? -- grm_wnr Esc 15:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. For those of you who'd like a link, here is it. Snoutwood (talk) 16:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I strongly suggest not moving the pages back, on the grounds that if moving them while mediation is pending is bad, unmoving them would be equally bad, and presumably you would like to take the high ground here (perhaps only minimally higher in this case, but still...) Thatcher131 16:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, I wasn't planning on it. Snoutwood (talk) 16:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that was a general "dont move them" to the assembly, not a "dont move them snoutwood!!1!!" ;) --Syrthiss 16:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Thatcher131 17:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry... indentation confusion. :) Snoutwood (talk) 17:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that moving the pages back would be equally bad—if anything, not moving them back is tantamount to rewarding bad behavior. Regardless, if I am being asked to "take the high road" by leaving them where they are for now, then I shall take the high road (a road I seem to be taking a lot these days, with no reciprocation from the other side… but never mind). However, I'd appreciate a clarification of the situation here, because I can only see three possibilities:

• Move-warring over these pages is a blockable offense, and therefore Freakofnurture will be blocked for having done it.
• Move-warring over these pages is not a blockable offense, and therefore anyone may move them with impunity, although they shouldn't.
• Move-warring over these pages is a blockable offense for PHenry, but not for Freakofnurture.

…and I'd really like to know which of these rules I can expect to be subject to today and in the future. —phh (/_c) 18:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Blocking exists only to prevent offenses, not punish them. If Freakofnurture isn't move warring anymore, then there's no point in blocking him - for the time being. And anyhow, the idea on Misplaced Pages is to take the high road. Someone has to do it, and it sure as hell won't be the other guy. Also, maintaining the status quo isn't meant to "reward" any kind of behaviour. It's meant to give us time to chill out and talk about the issue rather than bash our heads together repeatedly. The encyclopaedia won't die if people are directed to the wrong article for a day or two. Johnleemk | Talk 18:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Moving them back would be equally bad because it would start and/or perpetuate an edit war, and the only way edit wars ever solve content disputes is when one side or the other gets worn out and quits. I express the hope that some kind of dispute resolution process (article RFC, user RFC, a policy debate somewhere, or RFAR) will lead to a settled final answer and the articles can be moved to their final names then. In the meantime, names of the style Washington State Route 599 should all redirect to State Route 599 (Washington), so ordinary users of the encyclopedia should not be affected.

Problem is it's been 3 months and neither side has tired. Infact both sides have just become more determined they're right and now it's moved beyond the point where either side will budge per vendetta that they are "right". The only recourse at this point is a binding decision by the Arbcom that is currently in progress. JohnnyBGood t c 20:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Move warring over these pages is a blockable offense, for Freakofnurture and PHenry (and SPUI, and anyone else) IMO. I personally am not inclined to block FoN now because it is after the fact, though I might have blocked him at the time if I (1) had noticed it and (2) I had been cognizant of the RFAr related to such moves. Personally I would haved probably just asked him to stop, but thats me. I think it was a good faith move based on what he felt was compelling support, based on a possibly erroneous assumption (to be decided by the arbcom if all sides agree). I wanted to thank you for your forbearance in taking the high road. As you say, too often people feel that two questionable actions balance out at a reasonable action...when really they are equally questionable. --Syrthiss 18:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say to add him to the RfAr and leave them as is, assuming the previous names redirect. Reverting all those movies would probably be messy. --Avillia 18:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Just because this bloody stupid move warring has been going on for so long, I'm inclined to block on sight any editor who renames any state highway article (that's not an obvious typographical error).

I would do this for the good of the encyclopedia—the editors involved are generally productive, helpful, positive contributors (mostly). It's a terrible waste to soak up their time and energy on such a bloody stupid set of wars, and I'd like to think they will appreciate an intervention from their friends and colleagues to help them break this bloody stupid habit. Is there support for such an intervention? We can save them if we make the effort! TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

What's so complicated about this? Most pages linking to individual, state-maintained, numbered highways will be other pages related to the same state. Within the boundaries of each state, such highways are referred to by their proper names, i.e. "State Route 599" or "SR 599". However, since other highways with the exact same name also exist in other states, the parenthetical disambiguation is used. In the infrequent event that these are referenced from an an article pertaining to a different state, then specifying forms "Washington State Route 599" or "Washington's SR 599" can be used for clarification to the reader. Furthermore, User:Atanamir has a letter from the Washington State Department of Transportation supporting this nomenclature.

What more do you need? Demanding that I be blocked and reverted on proceedural grounds is ridiculous, because:

• This is not a move war.
• I moved the pages once each.
• They had not been recently moved.
• The moves were based on newly presented evidence from WSDOT.
• This "moving a bunch of roads at once is a blockable" idea is something Rschen7754 came up with so he could block SPUI and Locke Cole, with whom he was engaged in personal conflict.

Suggesting that "not moving them back (to the wrong titles) is tantamount to rewarding bad behavior" is itself tantamount to rules-lawyering of the highest order. — May. 16, '06 <freak|talk>

Uh huh. This "I'm right and everyone else is wrong, so nyaah!!" attitude is exactly why the arbitration case needs to be taken up, the sooner the better. —phh (/_c) 06:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

(Translation: "don't cloud the issue with the facts"). Let me know if you have a satisfactory reason to moving the pages back. I have given several reasons to leave them at the titles I moved them to. If, however, you are firmly convinced that anybody agreeing with SPUI is full of shit, then it's a waste of time to even talk about this. — May. 16, '06 <freak|talk>

God! Haven't you been paying attention? Or do you just not care what anyone says unless they agree with you? No one is arguing about the facts. The question is about the best way to apply the existing principles and conventions to these articles—a question for which there are valid arguments on both sides. But you've decided that none of this matters because you're right and evvv-erybody else is wrong, so you prefer to bludgeon everyone with your move warring rather than run the risk that the normal discussion process might arrive at a solution that you disagree with. —phh (/_c) 14:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You could go on all day about how you don't like me, but once again, do you have any rebuttal other than smearing my name? If so, spit it out. — May. 16, '06 <freak|talk>

Well, I'm someone who doens't dislike you, and I think you made a very poor call, right or wrong, in moving those pages. The issue's been mediated, edit-warred over, and is in an RFAR. Moving those pages did nothing but exacerbate the problem. I do not understand how you can justify your moves by saying "I'm right." Wait until the RFAR is over, then follow the decision. My sentiments echo Tawker's below; however, I will also add that had I seen it happening I would certainly have blocked you for it. Snoutwood (talk) 20:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Tawker's 2 cents

Blocking anyone for a week old event seems to be rather pointless and I am not suggesting anyone in any way shape or form does such. With respect to moving it back, it is best to simply avoid any more moves until a reasonable response to this dispute has been settled. As far as I am concerned there is no right or wrong naming scheme, we have a dispute and lets settle it like the mature human beings we are not 2 year olds in a sandbox -- Tawker 03:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Preved

There has been an unusual pattern on the Preved article. A variety of IPs from around the world have been replacing the content with spam links about every other hour. It is a relatively low traffic article, so it takes some time for someone to notice revert. Any chance the links could be added to the spam blacklist, and/or get some more folks to temporarily watch the page? --TeaDrinker 18:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I have it watched (I just had to do a revert again) and requested them placed on the spam blacklist as well at meta. --Syrthiss 19:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

User talk spamming

I have blocked Salix_alba (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for 24 hours for talk page spamming using AWB. It seriously looks as if he was trying to go through all user categories nominated for deletion and spam the user talk page of every single person in them. Massive talk page spamming and vote recruitment goes entirely beyond what is established Misplaced Pages practice. In addition, since he was using entirely inappropriately using AWB, I have removed him from the CheckPage. --Cyde Weys 19:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you could let him off with a warning? First offense and all. And bans are not meant to be punitive, only preventative. I know that user, and have no reason to suspect he wouldn't respond to comments. -lethe 20:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It was a preventative block. The talk page spamming was ongoing when I placed the block. --Cyde Weys 20:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it policy, as well as just good manners, to leave someone a note after you've blocked them? I'm going to do that for you, and then I'm going to unblock. -lethe 20:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

All well and good, but if he starts up again it is your duty to restore the block. Mackensen (talk) 21:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ageism

I feel there is quite a bias against older people on Misplaced Pages. Many of the administrators on Misplaced Pages are university students, who are quick to call older Wikipedians insulting names. Older people are not used to these attacks and sometimes respond incorrectly, resulting in a ban. I know personally older people who have been banned, and sometimes for good, and think that it may be a culture issue. Are older people welcome on Misplaced Pages, or is it mainly the preserve of university students? wallie 19:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the university students tend to be among more active Wikipedians, but there are several older Wikipedians here (among them some of our most respected Wikipedians). In what pages do you see this sort of reverse ageism? --Deathphoenix ʕ 19:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Obvious ageist comments fall under WP:CIVIL. Violations of WP:CIVIL are easily acted upon; report them here. FeloniousMonk 20:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Some of us admins are pretty old.  :) Can you give us some diffs to the problem edits you're referring to? User:Zoe| 20:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Does this mean it is time to form the Misplaced Pages:association of geriatric wikipedians? (PS - that was a joke!) Raul654 20:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Beware of the beans.  :) User:Zoe| 20:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Too late. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 20:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Better yet: Misplaced Pages:Association of Geriatric Editors (or WP:AGE for short) Raul654 20:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we can safely sum it up (in our best Kanye West voice) as Jimbo Wales doesn't care about old people. We oughn't to piss older folks, though; Modern Maturity, IIRC, has the largest circulation of any magazine in the world (surely that's a description over which one may quibble, but AARP, I think, claims the title for MM). (Are we really without an MM article, or am I just missing it somewhere?) Joe 20:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've just discovered that the magazine is now billed as AARP the Magazine; nevertheless, we don't seem to have an article, as evidenced by the omission of any Wikilink in the bio of managing editor John Stoltenberg. I know, I know, I should start the article myself, but I wonder if there's anyone with more knowledge of the subject who might take it on (apologies for cluttering AN/I with this, but I thought I ought to correct my previous comment). Joe 20:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to get here so late, my knees aren't what they used to be, now what was the question again? Do you have to already have a zimmer to join AGE or just remember when all this was fields? (Thanks Theresa, you've given me the best laugh all day) --Alf 20:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

This all seems to confirm the fact that you generally have to be young and preferably a student at a university to be taken seriously on Misplaced Pages. It would be interesting to get a statistical breakdown for administrators by age, and whether or not they are university students. wallie 22:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've been shaking my cane furiously at all these punk kids walking on my lawn for a year now, but they don't have any respect. I take a nap, and they're sticking tags and boxes over all my lovely articles! Geogre 23:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

On a slightly more serious note, I'd just like to point out that of the hundreds of users I've interacted with here, I've only known the age of a handful. I'm sure I'm not unique in that sense. --InShaneee 00:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen much ageism towards seniors, but I have seen some ageist remarks towards younger editors (like the 16-year-old User: Infinity0. If you are serious then some diffs would be helpful. I would be interested in helping illustrate this type of bias (btw, I'm a college student). The Ungovernable Force 00:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen much ageism towards seniors either, in fact the slurs I get from our less polite users, besides "bitchonen" and its cognates, are usually on the lines of "immature", "14-year-old", "junior higher" ("Jimbo, I know you hate junior highers like Bishonen and Schvatjester"). I realize you guys don't know how funny that is — would you like me to tell you my memories of the French Revolution, anybody? Bishonen | talk 03:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC).

I agree. I've never seen a serious ageist comment made by a younger to an older contributor, but I have seen one or two ageist comments directed by an older to a younger contributor. Wallie, perhaps you could be a little more specific about what ageist comments you've witnessed? Snottygobble 03:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Same here. I have gotten patronising comments from older people, however - one of them is right on this page. (Although the age given there is off by two years.) If there's much of an ageist movement against old folk, I haven't seen it. Johnleemk | Talk 08:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I've always written "old," and now that I am past middle age it just fits. As for "ageism," I keep saying it, and nobody seems to hear me: it is deeds, not persons, that matter in virtual space. As such, there is a very clear age skew among Misplaced Pages editors, but not in terms of actual agism. Instead, we have overly enthusiastic promotion of webcomics, web forums, pop songs, pop TV phenomena, and "memes" (ugh! anyone incapable of seeing the absurdity of that term is already a victim) and overly enthusiastic persuance of feuds, conspiracies, and campaigns. In other words, these things are the result of the age skew. Yes, there is a big, big bulge in the age curve at Misplaced Pages in the 25 and under segment, and it's self-limited by literacy requirements on its low end, but all of that could be written by desperate middle age folks. Our articles, our deeds, show the skew. Our articles and our deeds are a young skew. But, since it's always deeds, not persons, I think we can demonstrate the advantages of experience to the younger users or we can demand them. Demanding rarely works. Geogre 03:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and about the dismissals aimed at the young -- "ageist comments" aimed at the young -- no one knows anyone's age, so I take these as either clueless and stingless or as comments on the quality of the words. In the case of Bishonen, it's obviously absurd to think that she has been writing in an immature way, so I imagine that those insults were just the flailing arms of a drowning (and probably very young) person. Otherwise, if there is anything to them at all, the message is probably, "You are writing in too many generalizations/with too little knowledge of the context/with too much enthusiasm/too breathlessly/with too much self-satisfaction" but said in a hamfisted way as "immature." Geogre 03:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

O RLY? Junior higher. 03:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC).

Don't be a poopy head! Can't Win for Losing

George raises a relevant point, but this is a matter of systematic bias, not ageism. JoshuaZ 03:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Wallie, I'm a university student, and I respect the editors who make great contributions. Unless I've seen someone's picture, or they make childish remarks (!), I usually have no idea how old editors are. ~MDD4696 03:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm curious what Wallie means by "older". I'm over 50 and said so when I ran for ArbCom; I've never gotten a comment that's indicated any other editors gave a damn one way or another. So maybe if there is a bias against aged editors, I'm still too young to qualify or something. I'll admit that I do sometimes make ageist comments: specifically, if I find myself needing to block a shared school IP for juvenile behavior, my reason for blocking will often be "schoolchild vandalism". It hasn't occurred to me so far to keep an eye out for bad behavior in, say, the 70-plus crowd. Maybe I should. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe quite a few of the Arbitration Committee are not young. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 23:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Hardouin

This Wikipedian has has a long history of antisocial behaviour and abusive and wholesale reverts. As of a few minutes ago he has a) reverted, across several pages, week-old improvements resulting from many past complaints, a month of discussion, weeks of building consensus not to mention all the work to make the changes. What's more, after I cancelled the abusive reverts, the same followed me around page by page to revert again.

This is but the pinnacle of a long list of disruptive behaviour to many of the pages this user contributes to. It seems that this user sees Wiki as a place to concretize his/her knowledge and opinions, and this in spite of the contributions/questions of other contirbutors about/to his/her work. Never partaking in any constructive or preemptive discussion, this user simply reverts any edit not of his or her taste - and at best searches even the most trifling 'error' to 'justify' a wholesale revert - and if there is no error, 'insinuates' one. This behaviour is seen as arrogant, antisocial, and, most of all, discouraging to other contributors.

This is but the 'act' of it, but recent days have but confirmed this user's pollution of many articles with suggestive, selective and omissive informatons that would suggest a reality that is clearly unreferencable and a joke to those who know better. If you would like to see evidence of this please see to the Talk:Paris pages - there's tons of archives to this end. I have compiled a (long) selection of this user's abuses and misbehaviours over the last months and can provide them when the need be. THEPROMENADER 20:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent behaviour by Hardouin has indeed reched new depths, where Hardouin will take possession of an article and block any kind of further edit. This has been observed on a large array of articles, such as , Gare de Cergy Saint-Christophe, . The sus nammed editor enages in an edit war, not justifying his other than what can be described as he doesn't like it. On many occasions was Hardouin confronted our comments dismissed, deleted . It has come to the unfortunate point where no length of talks, justifications can make Hardouin refrain from blocking articles, even in the case of articles having reached featured status on portals Talk:Gare de Cergy Saint-Christophe. I have had to create a trollbox to keep messages left by Hardouin, these can be found on my talk page. Captain scarlet 06:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Amongst vague and general accusations (antisocial behavior?), ThePromenader is refering to a template which he recently created (Template:Major French Cities) and with which he intends to replace the template Template:Large French Cities which has been in existence for more than a year now (see Template:Toulouse infobox or Template:Bordeaux infobox for the original individual versions of the template, before they were standardized into Template:Large French Cities). I have questioned the motives for this new template, and exposed some of the misconceptions of ThePromenader about French cities at Talk:Paris.

Yet instead of clearly answering the points raised or acknowledging errors when I point them out, all I ever get from this user are baseless accusations and hot blooded messages. I can provide a list of ThePromenader's hot blooded and insulting messages that I have received over the months if an administrator wants to have a look at it. When I say insulting, I mean messages in which I am being called a "wily little creature" and other such niceties. Despite this, I have never filed any complaint against ThePromenader, and I believe the proper place for the strong disagreement between ThePromenader and I is mediation rather than incidents, but if ThePromenader insists on treating this at incidents I can bring clear evidence of his oft violent messages. Hardouin 22:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I come here after anulling User:Hardouin's third consecutive revert to weeks of work by many - one more and we're in WP:3RR territory. It's a pity that English Misplaced Pages's French pages still have so few knowledgable contributors that far-flung "concepts" imposed by one can remain unaltered, uncorrected and unsourced for so long, but this can be in no way an argument against improvement and change. The above insinuates much but says nothing, but the facts are this: Our collective work, discussion and consensus of the past weeks, involving, amongst others, a longtime Wiki administrator, has been singlehandedly reverted by a single opinioned contributor who can offer no clear justification for having reverted - three times - and the third after I took the time to bat down the last round of vague allusions that, under no circumstances could ever merit a total, wholesale and widespread revert. This user didn't even look at the template before reverting (proven), and didn't even read the talk page before reverting (now proven). Go figure. THEPROMENADER 22:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the infobox proposed by ThePromenader is not a "collective work" as ThePromenader falsely pretends, but is solely his responsability. Other users have participated in the discussion at Talk:Paris, but it is ThePromenader alone who designed his infobox and decided what to include in it, and what not to include. In particular, I am sorry if this is becoming a little technical, but ThePromenader insisted on including urban area population figures in his infobox alongside the usual metropolitan area population figure found in most other city infoboxes on Misplaced Pages. According to ThePromenader, the concept of metropolitan area doesn't accurately describe French cities, whereas the concept of urban area is better suited, says he. Unfortunately this is only personal opinion, and absolutely nothing shows or proves that the concept of metropolitan area is less suited to French cities than it is suited to, say, US or German cities. Absolutely no other user asked for urban area figures to be included in the infobox, yet ThePromenader included them anyway. To call this "collective" work is really stretching the meaning of the word "collective". Hardouin 23:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I did the graphic work - so what? It's my trade - go figure. I asked each and every person what they thought should go in it, and this personally on their talk page, and the result of this is there for all to see on the Talk:Paris Page. Do comments like "good work" mean nothing? This is not a discussion about the 'merit' of the metropolitan area - which is dumb because the MA info is there. You have absolutely no excuse for your behaviour, and if you are unable to find suitable sources or even build consensus for your unshared and unreferencable theories then tough luck - It wasn't time that was lacking - this has been going on for months! Enough already. THEPROMENADER 00:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

In light of the nature of the disagreement between ThePromenader and I, I propose to move this thread to mediation. If no compromise is possible, then arbitration will be the last solution. Hardouin 00:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I proposed mediation six months ago, ignored and refused by you. I of course am for mediation, but to what end I'm not sure - it's editing habits that must change. The reason this thread is here is because of your inability to deal with fact/reason and other contributors. A bit late after your having broken the WP:3RR rule with no viable justification at all - all on your own. But whatever. I await the results of this. THEPROMENADER 01:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You proposed mediation six months ago and supposedly I refused? When? Where? Can you prove it? If you really offered mediation and I refused it, it shouldn't be difficult to find a trace of this with all the history functions on Misplaced Pages. If you can't find a trace of it, I'm sorry but you'll have to apologize for what you just said. Hardouin 01:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Certainly. You want also my requests for Third opinion, IRC chats, and Admin requests for help/advice as well? I've got quite a file on you already compiled. In fact, I warned you about it around three months ago - I hoped I'd never have to use it. Even your sock-puppetry 'event' is there. THEPROMENADER 01:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You've got "quite a file" on me? Oh dear. Stalking, stalking... I certainly want to see that mediation offer from 6 months ago though, if it really exists. Hardouin 01:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Silly to put it like that, granted, but yes, I've made an archive of all your abusive reverts - for starters. Hold with the totally unjustified 'stalking' claim destined for once-only readers. Find the mediation link here - you of course blanked my message about this from your talk page. In that link you can also find the other forms of aid/mediation I'd initiated previously. THEPROMENADER 07:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm an outsider to all of this (and not an admin). Not to make light of the troubles obviously involved here, but this is reading like a parody of a Misplaced Pages dispute (albeit highly entertaining and well-written). Hopefully you can find a mediator you both respect to at least advise on your interactions with each other, if not on the details of the content dispute. So much heat on an issue like this is not only unfortunate for those involved, but reflects badly on Misplaced Pages in general. David Oberst 08:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

What THEPROMENADER is trying to show is that Hardouin's behaviour has come to tarnish the pleasure of other users on Misplaced Pages, blocking changes on articles and not participating in discussions when a member comes to suggest an update. At worst Hardouin's revert and edits show inaccurate and erronous statements which THEPROMENADER has no doubt a collection of. I suggest that THEPROMENADER does indeed show what a few of us believe so that this detrimental behaviour comes to an end, since no short warnings are taken into account and blanked, along with any kind of messaging on Hardouin's Talkpage. You say you are seeing this from an outsider's point of view, I can assure you it is only the tip of the iceberg. Replies have indeed been well written, because they are true, and researched and supplemented by facts, just as Misplaced Pages should be. Captain scarlet 08:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Zzzzz

This user has taken to spamming about what he sees as spam, and is endlessly posting about spam on Template_talk:Featured and other places. I think he is being purely disruptive, and I've asked him several times to try and be more constructive, but he just keeps on shouting "SPAM!!" at anyone and everyone. If anyone else thinks this looks disruptive, could they try leaving him a note to ask him to tone it down? Thanks. Some relevant diffs are:

• Talk page spamming: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
• Incessant accusations of spamming: , , , , , ,
• Some increasingly irritated attempts to get him to calm down and talk productively: , , , , , .

Worldtraveller 21:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

yawn... if the GA spammers were willing to discuss their reasoning behing adding the GA spam to Template:featured - i'm still waiting for a valid reason other than inappropriate advertising and self-congratulation - maybe there wouldnt be so much uncivility going on? all i see is worldtraveller bleating about how the world is against him while consistently failing to engage in the debate about how "this featured article was once a good article!!!" helps wikipedia in any way shape or form.

furthermore resorting to unilaterally deleting my comments ofrom talkpages. e.g. this edit which is clearly vandalism is grounds for censure. Zzzzz 21:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Proof, if proof were needed, that Zzzzz is not interested in productive discussion, is that although I have not even been arguing in favour of what he's so worked up about, he's assuming I have so that he can attack my motives. Worldtraveller 22:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Lou Franklin

User:Lou franklin, after having an arbitration case against him which resulted in his being banned from Societal attitudes towards homosexuality, began posting a countdown on his user page, which he referred to as "plan B" (plan A was, apparently, harrassing the editors on Talk:Societal attitudes towards homosexuality until he got banned from the article). After several requests for information regarding just what, exactly, he was counting down to, he divulged the information in an email to me, which follows in its entirety:

Seth,

I have tried everything possible within the Misplaced Pages community's rules to clean up the article. That has not been allowed and, as you know, I have not been treated fairly by any stretch of the imagination.

That's not a big deal, but the underlying problem is that you have an encyclopedia article that uses the word "cocksucker" and unnecessarily features nudity. That would be fine if the audience were all adults, but that is not the case. I know that children are reading that article. I was blocked by an admin who was 14 years old. That kid shouldn't even be reading that article (let alone making administrative judgments about it).

Apparently very few of the editors care about corrupting the morals of children, but I care. I care a lot. Think back to when you were 14. Do you have a 14 year old nephew or niece? It is very wrong to expose 14 year old kids to that kind of indecency. And in the case of this article, the indecency is not even relevant to the topic.

I have gone through all of Misplaced Pages's bureaucratic hoops and raised a red flag to people at the very highest levels within the Misplaced Pages community. I have no more options within the Misplaced Pages framework. I have been given no choice but to work outside Misplaced Pages's structure.

So far there are four events planned starting on August 4th. All are all very legal and non-violent. I don't want to ruin the surprise for all of them, but I want to get your opinion about one of them.

Check out http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/Main_Page. It also starts on August 4th. There is an anti-gay group that has acquired somewhat of a reputation for their ability to get media coverage to their protests. This group has read the article and is aware of my efforts and is understandably concerned about the lack of fairness and neutrality displayed here. They have not committed for certain, so I don't want to mention the group's name in case it doesn't happen, but they may protest the Misplaced Pages event.

I am understandably concerned about the article and my treatment, but I have reservations about getting this group involved. These people are truly insane. And I have nothing against gay people, I just want an article that is not obscene and maintains some semblance of neutrality. But, on the other hand, I absolutely will not be the one who allowed kids to read "cocksucker" and see that illustration in the article. And there doesn’t seem to be another way to work this out.

What do you think the odds are that Misplaced Pages will do the right thing and either delete the article or fix it without a big scene? I have to give this group some lead time and I worry that once I set this up I may not be able to get the Jeannie back into the bottle.

I would like your opinion about that, and you also promised to answer my questions now.

I'm not sure how seriously I take him here, but passing this information on for community comment seemed like a good idea. -Smahoney 21:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't find anything particularly troublesome there, and I certainly don't think he's going to find many supporters for the proposition that It is very wrong to expose 14 year old kids to that kind of indecency; I can't think of anything on Misplaced Pages the reading of which I wouldn't permit (or even encourage) by any 10-year-old whom I know, let alone any 14-year-old. Joe 22:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Whether he will find support or not doesn't really matter. What matters is that he's seeking outside support or claims to be seeking outside support to pressure wikipedia into caving in to his demands and enforcing his pov on the article. That should definitely be taken seriously, and it should be taken care of. Aecis 22:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't imagine he'll find anyone to protest Misplaced Pages over this, but that leaves the other three of his four events. At any rate, this shows he's not in the least bit interested in following the terms of Arbcom and staying away from Societal attitudes towards homosexuality. --Sam Blanning 22:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't really think its our business to be concerned about what he will or will not do outside of Misplaced Pages (so long as no one is harmed by it), but I feel that perhaps he really doesn't get it - I mean, the idea that Wikipedians can or should be subject to political pressure by non-editors, if adopted, undermines the whole project. -Smahoney 22:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with Aecis for the reasons expressed by Seth and further in view of my general disapproval of our looking at a user's extra-Wiki activities in ascertaining whether he/she should be blocked/banned/otherwise regulated. My point with respect to finding support was more, I suppose, of an inducement toward Lou's carrying out Plan B; notwithstanding that Seth is correct that the project isn't likely to compromise principles such as WP:NPOV in view of a WikiMania protest, I sought to suggest that it was unlikely Lou'd find many people to protest in any event (I suppose I may be incorrect there; at the very least, I don't think Lou's position would ever win the support of most editors here, irrespective of his outside agitiation). Joe 23:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Personally, even though I trust Seth and I would hope that the community trusts my judgement, I would also oppose any block based on a single claim of an email received.

I do, however, think that this is relevant background, especially as Lou has requested mentorship - see User talk:Lou franklin#Who wants to mentor me?. (I hope I'm not the only one who thought "Who wants to mentor me?" sounded like some sort of game show. Would you like to go 3RR, Ask the Arbcom, or Phone a Sockpuppet?) --Sam Blanning 23:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL at Plan A. I can't wait to see what Plan B is gonna be. --Cyde Weys 22:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

1/4 of plan B is hedged around in the email above. -Smahoney 22:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that Plan C involves a atomic death ray, a vandalism bot that gives every page rainboxen, and a large box of milk duds. --Avillia 00:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

That evidence does not count, how can you prove that Lou sent you that email? Anyways it is not very nice to publish personal communications even if they are genuine. Lapinmies 22:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

This sort of objection is no doubt why he only shared that info via email. Nonetheless, I think its worth consideration. -Smahoney 22:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I trust Seth, and the content of the email is Lou through and through. I also encouraged Seth to post this email after he forwarded it to me on my request. It wasn't like Seth even asked Lou to email him in confidence - he said "what is plan B?" and Lou said "I'll email you" rather than replying on his talk page (SM LF). Given that, I felt that posting the email was the right thing to do. --Sam Blanning 23:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, for what it is worth. If Lou wants to label himself as anti-gay by associating himself with those groups, his choice. If he even has the faintest hope it will get him somewhere, let him dreaming. There have been much more serious fights (think Muhammad Cartoons for example) fought out here, so I do not see a big issue comming up. The worst thing that could happen is that the conservative media gets a confirmation that wikipedia does not fall within their approved moral standards. Big deal. Not! Kim van der Linde 23:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the worst thing that could happen is that some groups get the idea that the way to get things changed around here is to apply political pressure. But yeah, I don't see this as anything serious either, more as a suggestion that Lou still doesn't get it. -Smahoney 23:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

We have been trolled. Have a nice day. Either Lou's threat is a bluff, in which case it should be ignored, or it is a very weak threat — which should be ignored.

Lou is welcome to edit within the bounds of the restrictions imposed by ArbCom. Based on his performance to date, I suspect he will fail at this, but until he does I strongly recommend not giving him the attention that he seems to be so desperate to get. Any course of action beyond enforcing the terms of his parole and continuing to edit as normal would seem to suggest that we can be successfully trolled and bullied.

Oh, and if scraggly band of homophobic nutjobs do picket Wikimania, we should be pleased—it will provide lots of material for Wikinews. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to guess what group he contacted. The most obvious group (given that even Lou think they are "insane") is that of Fred Phelps which could be amusing. More seriously, while we don't normally care about what happens outside Misplaced Pages, this indicates 1) an unwillingness to abid by Arb Com 2) A generally disruptive attitude. I'm also somewhat worried about what the other three planned events are. Even making this sort of threat seems to me to be close to exhausting the community patience, and if any of his threatened/hinted at actions do occur, I would support a very long, if not indefinite block. JoshuaZ 02:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

He's currently on personal attack parole, and he's used up one of his five strikes already. (He's currently on a one-week block.) Further, he's got a three-strike parole that restricts his editing of the articles and talk pages related to Societal attitudes towards homosexuality, which is where he was involved in the most conflict. I understand he's already burned his first strike there.

Either he shapes up really soon, or he's going to be blocked for a year anyway. About the only way he can cause trouble is through his talk page. If we refuse to be trolled there – though remember, the personal attack parole also applies on that page – then he really doesn't have an avenue to make a nuisance of himself on-wiki. We can ignore him until he shapes up or self-destructs; I don't think a community ban is necessary yet. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I too figured the group to be one of the several with which Phelps is associated; it'll be interesting (don't feed the trolls) altogether uninteresting to see who the group are (we can safely rule out the GNAA, though, no?). Joe 06:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Help with impersonator

Could someone do something about IIir_pz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who is impersonating Ilir_pz (talk · contribs). Thanks. --Telex 22:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Done by Deskana. --Sam Blanning 22:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Yet another Rms125a sockpuppet

Hobson'sChoice (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a sockpuppet of indefinitely blocked user Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (evidence: ). Can an admin block this sockpuppet please? Thanks. Demiurge 22:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• Blocked indefinitely by User:Jtdirl - Ali-oops 10:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Please keep an eye on Pinkboy7

Pinkboy7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log): I spotted this editor because he changed Aktenzeichen XY... ungelöst and America's Most Wanted around to say that the former was inspired by the latter, rather than the other way around (Aktenzeichen was in fact on the air 20 years before Most Wanted). I then noticed he was adding Category:Crime Epics to a lot of real crime-related articles such as Bonanno crime family, a category which a) doesn't exist, b) probably never will and c) certainly isn't suited to real-life crime families - plus he wasn't only adding them, but replacing legit categories such as Category:Five Families.

I asked him to stop three times, the last time making it clear that I would block, then having had no response, I blocked him for an hour ~20 minutes ago in the hope of getting his attention. He's obviously not a vandal, but by replacing good categories with bad ones he was damaging articles, and when he kept doing it after three requests to stop without even trying to communicate, it was either block him or leave him. Please keep an eye on his contributions when his block expires. --Sam Blanning 22:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I have reblocked indefinitely. This is a return of Stoneboy3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Fearboy3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Do NOT mistake this for some clueless newbie, this is a vandal. -- Curps 04:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You forgot Painboy3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Kimchi.sg 04:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Cyde

Please defrock this rogue admin a.s.a.p., see Template talk:User kon. Intentionally ignoring CFD, CDP, and DRV demonstrates a fundamental disrespect of the commnunity. -- Omniplex 23:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Hold your horses. All he did was change the name of the category from "user con" to "Wikipedians who use the Yahoo! Widget Engine". Ashibaka tock 00:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Category:Category:Wikipedians who use the Yahoo! Widget Engine actually, so it needs a rename either way. Kotepho 00:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Fixed by removing the double Category: (obviously that part was accidental). Omniplex, is renaming Category:User kon to Category:Wikipedians who use the Yahoo! Widget Engine really so unreasonable?! --Cyde Weys 00:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I have to say, Cyde is really growing on me. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 00:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I need to be desysopped immediately for renaming a category. /me sighs. --Cyde Weys 00:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

renaming a category a category without community consensus that is. 70.48.250.138 00:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

WP:BOLD. Read up on it. This category renaming was soooo obvious I didn't need to waste other people's time at CFD. --Cyde Weys 00:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yet If I boldly edit your userpage, i surely would've been banned. 70.48.250.138 01:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, it depends on what you put on there. Try me. --Cyde Weys 01:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

This is not the first case in which Cyde has closed on his own whim and against consensus; but if Cyde is going to get away with consistently being judge in his own case:

• Unblocking himself early because it was inconvenient;
• Closing his own TfD nominations 3 days early and against consensus;
• Blocking Salix Alba for notifying members of a cat he had put on CfD;

Then we certainly shouldn't do anything for this. Septentrionalis 01:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• It really bugs you that I can block and unblock myself and you can't, doesn't it :-P Cyde Weys 02:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Trolling again, Cyde? Septentrionalis 02:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

"Defrocked"? Cyde, do you wear frocks? User:Zoe| 02:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• My frocks are all pink, lacy, and made by Gucci. And no one is going to be taking my frocks away. --Cyde Weys 02:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
  • You may be interested in Male Unbifurcated Garment.  :) User:Zoe| 01:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• You'll be personally excommunicated by Jimbo. Ashibaka tock 02:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yahoo has no place on the internet. Move for lifetime ban immediately. -- Daniel Davis 02:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• As someone who strongly opposes and disagrees with almost everything User:Cyde does concerning userboxes, I can confidently state that the above category-renaming is an extremely reasonable and good one, and am honestly amazed that such a ridiculously trivial and clearly beneficial change is what we're discussing here, not something like the {{user christian}} debacle. Come on. Is this a joke? This must be a joke. -Silence 02:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

How many userboxes has this user deleted in the last few days. And all of them against the waiting time which is specified for TfD. I would say that this gross breach of policy would be worth a very close look at. Its not acceptable to have an admin running around doing what they personally want while ignoring consensus and policy. Ansell Review my progress! 07:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to remind you that Cyde is also the author of this version of {{user Christian}} template who, by changing this userbox, embelished more than a hundred userpages with a spinning crucifix on top of an article-length rant. Friendly Neighbour 07:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

And you're the one that violated WP:OWN and WP:AGF by claiming that the userbox was somehow sacred (pardon the pun) and editing it in a way you didn't like was vandalism. If you don't want a userbox on your user page to change, subst it. --Sam Blanning 09:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Please show me the edit where I claimed userboxes are sacred. You seem to mix up my (twice) reverting what I deemed (and still deem) a simple vandalism by Cyde & Gmaxwell (please note that arguing an edit is vandalism is explicitely allowed under WP:NPA) and my voice in discussion saying that templates should be treated more lentient than articles under WP:OWN because the persons who don't like a template may create an alternative one. Since when discussing WP:OWN is breaking it? Also, do you mean that arguing that what Cyde and Gmaxwell did was vandalism means breaking WP:AGF? I believe that WP:AGF is about accusing about bad intentions, not criticizing past deeds: "This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Things which can cause the loss of good faith include vandalism, personal attacks, sockpuppetry and edit warring. Assuming good faith also does not mean that no action by editors should be criticized, it only means that one should not ascribe said action to malice.". Please show me an edit where I assumed malice. I can show you one where Cyde assumed malice on my part (like this one - please compare the tone of Cyde's edit with the one by myself he responds to). Friendly Neighbour 10:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

What you're also doing is violating WP:CIVIL by bringing up this incidenct at every possible opportunity, on every page, in every context. --InShaneee 16:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Nice try. None of the uncivility examples in the policy bears any similarity to reminding a user's previous tresspass on WP:ANI. You must be joking. Friendly Neighbour 18:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:HereToHelp

please see the comments made by the above user here on the community portal talk page Wikipedia_talk:Community_Portal. see section "order of GAC and CTC". it appears he is abusing admin privileges in order to win a content dispute, with little or no justification to do so. this s a repeat offence: last time he broke 3RR and received a block from User:William M. Connolley. he appears to have not learnt his lesson. also please see his edits on the community portal itself: especially the edit summary on this one which appears highly odd behaviour for an admin? Zzzzz 01:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Once wrong doesn't mean always wrong. This sound mainly like sour grapes on your part. --InShaneee 01:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Crazyharp81602

user added a bunch of "acknowledgement" sections listing himself. While I have reverted all of them, I am not sure how to approach him about it and WP:OWN. Circeus 03:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I left a note on his talk page. JoshuaZ 03:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. That was a much simpler wording than what I'd probably have ended using. Circeus 04:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Mytwocents

User:Oldwindybear, an elderly, disabled gentleman who I have worked with previously brought the following matter to Requests for mediation. I've edited out some of the text which I felt was mediation-specific; I initally agreed to help put it in the required format for RfM, but on reading and looking into the surface of the matter, felt it was better handled outside mediation. Since I'm the one handling the mediation side of it, I don't feel quite comfortable undertaking an investigation; could someone, perhaps someone with a better knowledge of the situation, take a look and see what can be done? As I say, OWB is an older gentleman, and has difficulty with some aspects of electronic communication, but is an excellent contributor; he even goes to the Library of Congress regularly to do research for articles. I'd really appreciate someone looking into the whole situation. Below is the somewhat edited version of his comments on RfM; the full post can be viewed here (it's now been removed from RfM). Essjay (Talk • Connect) 06:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Notice has been filed on this user's talk page, http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Mytwocents I allege the following:

• constant unending personal attacks such as the ones on the alleged sock puppet charge, a charge he knows to be false, and yet made it solely to intimidate people from opposing him - which, if you check the other user's page, he has evidently suceeded at - that user will no longer edit in wikipedia due to the barrage of false accusations;
• falsely accusing me of sock puppeting;
• lying about me to editors;
• calling me names on an administers talk page;
• edits talk pages and deletes sections as though he is some master of the language - where are his credentials to do such? He has none except his vicious personal agenda against those who disagree with him;
• attempting to bully, harass and intimidate every person who dares disagree with him - I have gotten two private emails from other members applauding my refusing to be bullied by his vicious, unending, vile personal, attacks.
• why is it that every other user got along fine with the peer review on Bonnie and Clyde except this one? BECAUSE HE COULD NOT GET HIS POV WAY. He asked for a peer review, then whined, cried, moaned, and launched every vicious personal attack he could on me when others did not see things his way;
• he should NOT be on wikipedia in any capacity, and I beg the committee, once the check/user on the false sock puppet is done, and an examination of the edits, showing no similarity to my work, to punish him severely for the false accusation, and his unending personal bile;
• I am quoting directly from one of the emails: "this person is the most arrogant and meanspirited person on wikipedia, and hopefully after this phony sock puppet charge, they will finally kick him off." I will gladly forward the emails to you! Other people are tired of this vile neverending personal assaults that typify this user.

You know from way back that I detest sock puppets, and no more insulting attack coudl have been made on me - and I am just waiting for the committee to run check/user and assess the edits, and then I truly believe the committee should address teh fact that this guy used a wikipedia tool which is supposed to be reserved for real cases, to retaliate, and effectively drove a new user and contributor out of wikipedia by making it so unpleasant, he says he won't be back. As I point out on teh sock puppet page, while of course, I, like anyone, appreciate compliments on my work, the user in question was not even really involved in the peer review - all those folks and I got only great, we identified the issues in question, and except for Mytwocents were all happy in consensus with the result. He then called me names on an admin's talk page, made the charge that AnnH has said has no proof whatsoever, (if making the first comment on someone's talk page was proof, she, an editor, had done so also! - and which I did out of sarcasm after Mytwocents begin hinting I was using puppets in the review - which again, when you examine it, you will see is totally false.

Anyway, I am not the first person this user attacked. He needs to be curtailed, and the unending viciousness put to a stop.

I and others have witnessed the attacks. Honestly, I would have no problem with mytwocents being blocked for a short time for incivility and for violating no personal attacks. --Woohookitty 06:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Before I'm blocked, I'd like a chance to delete, or line out any personal atacks or apologize for any incivility.Mytwocents 06:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Why not get started straight away? Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 08:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Latest administrative abuse by User:Cyde

User:Cyde recently engaged in some use of blocks to further a pattern of personal attacks.

I have been editing Cuba, and got drawn into an edit-war; a bit hot-headed on my part. I got carried away on reverting some POV-mongering by User:KDRGibby (7RR) and User:Drogo Underburrow. When I realized I made a fourth reversion, I emailed User:MONGO to tell him that in the interest of procedural fairness, he should place a 3RR block on me; later Drogo Underburrow filed a 3RR on me that was actually incorrect, having claimed several unrelated edits as reversions; but if the report had been more accurate, there was a 3RR in there.

Shortly thereafter (before MONGO had seen the email), Cyde started at some drastic misbehavior that is a concern to me:

1. Cyde has previously engaged in aggressive personal attacks on me on unrelated matters, and should recuse himself from this particular block. Moreover, he had not been following 3RR reports in the same timeframe, but simply noticed my name, and saw an opportunity to "get even" for an earlier RfC against him.
2. Cyde blocked me, User:Zleitzen and User:Myciconia, all without giving any notice of the block on our talk pages.
3. Cyde blocked Zleitzen entirely for editing in the same "direction" I had, even though Zleitzen absolutely did not violate 3RR.
4. Cyde refused to block Drogo Underburrow who had violated 3RR on the same page (but in the opposite direction as Zleitzen, Myciconia and I), even after being notified of the inconsistency.

Overall, it's obvious that Cyde is using blocks out of a vendetta and in contempt of 3RR guidelines. This sort of misuse of administrative powers have been pretty much a uniform M.O. by Cyde. LotLE×talk 07:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Bah. Three reverts isn't an entitlement, and if there was an edit war all around blocking everyone involved seems not to be unreasonable. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 07:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, he didn't even bother to post anything at the WP:3RR board ...nor informed a single editor he'd blocked them...looks to me like he saw the 3RR report...went "gotcha", and hit the ole block button.--MONGO 07:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It might have been reasonable if Cyde's blocks had not, in fact, been purely one-sided. I let Cyde know in email that if he wanted to be consistent, he would need to include Drogo Underburrow (who actually violated 3RR, moreover). I don't think Cyde's actions were even motivated by the underlying politics of the edit matter (my hunch is he'd probably be closer to the NPOV Zleitzen, Myciconia and I were trying to maintain, even if we were too agressive)... I think his actions are pure vendetta at a personal level. LotLE×talk 07:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Lotus-eaters claim that I violated 3-rr is complete fiction. Cyde is absolutely correct in not blocking me. Lotus-eater has no regard for civilty; he calls other editors contributions as "pov-mongering" as he did here, and he frequently call other editors contributions far worse names. Considering the amount of incivility he displays, he is lucky if he doesn't get blocked further. For examples of his incivility, look at his contributions to the Cuba talk page. Drogo Underburrow 07:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Request for block review of Lulu of the Lotus Eaters

Crossposting is bad, so I've moving this thread here to join it's other half at wp:ani. - brenneman{L} 08:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Cyde (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) blocked Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters (talk · contribs) yesterday at 4:47 UTC for 24 hours for a 3RR violation on Cuba. Cyde did not notify Lulu on his talk page. Today at 00:29 UTC, MONGO (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) unblocked Lulu, saying that Cyde was an involved admin. I just reblocked Lulu for the remainder of his block length as an uninvolved admin, and as is my general custom, I request community input on this block. Ral315 (talk) 06:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like the preventative rather than punative question, if post the unblock Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters (talk · contribs) discontinued edit warring, then there is no need for any further time blocked. --pgk 06:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Lulu has indicated he's leaving Cuba alone. I've complained countless times that admins get a free pass on 3rr (see "Decision not to have a fellow admin blocked" above) when we are totally mechanical about the blocking of the peasants for it. Can we be a bit more consistant, please? - brenneman 06:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

To reiterate, the reason I reblocked was because MONGO unblocked with the complaint that it was an involved admin, and I felt MONGO had problems with Cyde, making the unblocking more out of spite than anything. I've unblocked with Lulu's assurance that he won't edit the page, but my problem is that MONGO didn't ask for such an assurance. Ral315 (talk) 06:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I call bullshit...Lulu told me in email that he was going to leave the article alone, and I told him on his talk page to do so. Cyde failed to leave any comment at the WP:3RR page and also didn't bother to tell Lulu he was blocked. My onblocking was almost at the end of his block anyway...and as noted on the 3RR page, Lulu had filed an Rfc previously about Cyde...you better get your facts straight before you go wheel warring with me.--MONGO 07:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, you cited your block reason as Cyde's involvement. I was re-affirming the block as an uninvolved admin. This wasn't wheel-warring, this was a genuine attempt to enforce what I believed a fair block. If you intended the block to stick, you should have left a summary that actually referenced why you made the unblock. Ral315 (talk) 10:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I should have done as I did...you shouldn't be so petty as to reimpose a block for a lousy couple of hours...ridiculous. Go write an encyclopedia article.--MONGO 11:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

No, MONGO did ask that, and I assured him. But some of it might have been in email rather than on my talk page. I actually requested that MONGO block me yesterday, in the interest of fairness (also probably in email), so I'm not really concerned about the block itself. But the fact that Cyde so unambiguously was blocking out of revenge rather than actual guidelines is a concern... i.e. his failure to notify and his block of User:Zleitzen who's only sin was editing in the same "direction" as I had on the Cuba article (and absolutely did not violate 3RR), while refusing to block an editor on the other side (User:Drogo Underburrow) for actual 3RR violation. LotLE×talk 07:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, I was blocked simply for sorting out the page after a banned user KDRGibby had been deleting paragraphs in frustration and adding duplicate material, as per discussion with administrators of that block. I edited three times on two different paragraphs. One of which was because I was under the impression that KDRGibby had been banned, but he popped up again to revert so I had to act again. I wasn't warned or notified of my block and received no apology from Cyde, who unblocked me after communications with the comment "long enough". I was able to get another administrator to add a disclaimer that my block was in error. Still, it leaves a rather unpleasant taste. And more than anything makes me wonder whether this is the online community for me. --Zleitzen 07:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Cyde didn't block me because I didn't violate 3-RR. It had nothing to do with what "side" I was on, and everything to do with the simple fact that I didn't violate 3-RR. Drogo Underburrow 08:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Pretty close..., , and attempted to add back one full paragraph from the other two additions and all this after a report just days ago......nothing personal, just don't try to game the system.--MONGO 08:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I won't. And I didn't. Also the report is meaningless; a bogus filing that served to introduce me to the world of 3-rr reporting. I didn't violate the policy then, that report was filed by an editor who doesn't know what reverts are, and thought because I made four edits I had made four reverts. No action was taken against me, because I didn't do anything.

Lulu, on the other hand, had spent the entire day edit-warring, making edit after edit that reverted what other editors were trying to do. That is why he got blocked. Now, he makes up a lie that I violated 3-RR, probably intended to make Cyde look bad. Drogo Underburrow 09:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo's correct that I don't like gross violations of NPOV by him and some other editors. But in terms of the 3RR issue itself, I reverted exactly four times, not any more than that. Which as I've said, means I earned a block, and which I recognize was wrong of me (and which is why I asked to be blocked). But Drogo's 3RR report, and his complaint above, is just a rambling list of edits to various sections of the article that he didn't like because it didn't advance his editorial position. In any case, the problems with Cyde's actions aren't the fact I was blocked (which was proper), but the fact that he did it, without any notification, and that he blocked non-3RR editors on a selective basis. LotLE×talk 16:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't know how relevant this is, but Drogo filed a frivolous report against me the other day in transparent retaliation for an accurate report about his own actual violation.Timothy Usher 06:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not relevant. You say I violated 3-RR. You filed a report. No action was taken, not even a warning, nada. So much for your claim. I filed a claim against you as well, believing that you had violated the rule. No action was taken against you either. Why are you wasting space here on old 3-RR claims that no admin even bothered to respond to? Are you going to never drop this matter? No one cares but me and you. Drogo Underburrow 06:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Blocked user Rms125a@hotmail.com evading block

Indefinitely blocked user Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is evading his block as 216.194.4.43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) (proof: ). Can an administrator block this IP please? Thanks! Demiurge 09:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. Henry 10:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Robert is still involved in massive revert-warring at this IP address. See . I don't see anything in the block log - Ali-oops 10:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for the help, but it seems you reblocked Rms125a@hotmail.com for 48 hours (effectively undoing his indefinite block) rather than blocking the IP address. Putting a 48 hour block on 216.194.4.43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), then unblocking Rms125a@hotmail.com so you can block the username indefinitely again should fix things. Thanks again! Demiurge 10:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Oops! I think I've got it right this time. Henry 10:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Henry - fixed! And thanks for the revert on my talk page :) - Ali-oops 10:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Ectoplasmer

User:Ectoplasmer Has Vandalised Boom Boom Boom Boom and Soul of the Duelist since his third warning on the 11th of May (see User_talk:Ectoplasmer) --KaiAdin 10:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I gave him a {{test4}} - it works surprisingly often. In future, reports of simple vandalism should go on WP:AIV. --Sam Blanning 11:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Userbox nonsense again

Recently Template:User sumofpi was listed on TfD. The outcome was overwhelmingly Keep. The template was then deprecated by subst'ing and deleted anyway. I have just restored it. This same situation with templates being deleted following clear votes to keep has occurred on other templates. I have not restored those others because I think we need to settle this here and now rather than starting another silly war over little rectangles.

Do we have rules and procedures or not?

I don't really care one way or another whether there exists a userbox that lists the value of 'pi'... but if we have a policy which says that we have TfD's on whether or not to keep these then we have to abide by that policy. Not put things on TfD and then delete them anyway regardless of the outcome. Doing so amounts to going out of our way to antagonize the general users by blatantly demonstrating a complete disregard for the concepts of 'consensus' and 'policy' that we are supposed to be upholding.

If you want to be able to delete userboxes at whim then follow process to get a new 'speedy delete all userboxes' criteria added. Or rewrite the policies to 'admins can do anything they want and users just have to accept that'. However, so long as we continue to publically claim to believe in some sort of 'due process' and decisions by 'community consensus' this kind of behaviour cannot stand. --CBDunkerson 11:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, we do. Next time I'd appreciate a friendly note my talk page before a complaint is brought here. We're both admins and we can both civil to each other, I should think. Mackensen (talk) 11:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Check your talk page. :] --CBDunkerson 11:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• People can disagree over whether or not they'd have closed the TfD in the same way as Mackensen did here. However, your post to AN/I like this, and your immediate action in undeleting and screaming about Mackensen's supposed abuse of process leads me to assume one of two things: a) you don't have a clue what you're talking about (I know this is not the case), or b) you're making a massive assumption of bad faith on Mackensen's part. Please, this is not appropriate. There's a DRV in progress. If you'd have closed differently, why not just mosey on over there and say "I'd have closed differently"? This sort of action only seems necessary if you think Mackensen is wilfully acting in bad faith ... fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 11:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
  • You're kidding right? You are actually claiming that there was some way to interpret that TfD discussion as a consensus to delete? Really? And to be clear... yes, I think Mackensen was willfully acting in bad faith. Closing a deletion debate you started is not a good thing. Closing it as 'delete' when there is no possible way to see that as the consensus is not a good thing. Mackensen, Cyde, and others involved are blatantly disregarding policy and consensus. --CBDunkerson 11:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Of course not. (My understanding of) The way he interpreted it was that, while everyone wanted the content kept, those arguing for deletion were saying it didn't belong in template namespace, while those arguing for keeping just didn't want the content to go away. I can see how someone, closing in good faith, would say "okay, we'll keep the content and remove it from the template namespace". I've made analogous calls myself, many times, on AfD, without complaint. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 11:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• • • If you think I'm willfully acting in bad faith...wow. In that case you're in the wrong place. You need to RfC me now and start working on an arbitration case because I've obviously gone off the deep end and need to be defrocked (is that the phrase that's popular these days?) Heaven forfend that any admin ever uses his judgement, or makes an unpopular decision. Note that I reversed myself when it became apparent people thought I was nuts. Mackensen (talk) 12:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• To save you counting, I'll add that the votes were: 23 for Keep (18) or Strong keep (5) and 4 for Delete (2) or Subst and delete(2). The "consensus" result was apparently Subst and delete according to Mackensen who did exactly that. I know that this "vote" is supposed to be rather a discussion to seek consensus. But if a consensus was found, it was the exact reverse of how the TfD was concluded. Friendly Neighbour 11:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Stop. TfD is not a vote. How many times do you need to be told that? fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 11:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Have you bothered to actually read what I wrote? Friendly Neighbour 11:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Of course; it's one courtesy I always try to extend. You posted a vote count; regardless of how sophisticated it was (and I admit, it's better than the standard "4 delete 3 keep" thing we see from the clueless on AfD) it's meaningless. The comments of each user were not included in your post, but the comments are important. People are better off looking at the TfD and making their own minds up than having you poke vote tallies in their noses. It's one thing to look at the TfD and say "I don't read it the same way Mackensen did", but quite another to look at it and say "I count this many votes for x, y, or z!" fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 11:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• I wrote that I know TfD is not a vote but consensus seeking and you reply with "TfD is not a vote". I'm glad we agree but why order me to Stop? My point was that if a consensus was there, it was not the same concensus Mackensen found. I do hope it is clear now. Friendly Neighbour 11:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
• Well, TfD may not be a vote, but it isn't "let's hear some opinions and then do what we wanted all along anyway" either. -- grm_wnr Esc 11:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

What I want, more than anything else, is to see people assume good faith now and then. I acted upon what seemed to me three speedy keeps and closed in the best possible manner. What better way to keep the "template" than to subst it and get it out of harm's way? I'm trying to save the boxes at this point, damn it. Mackensen (talk) 12:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

And what I want more than anything else is that people would stop automatically saying "AGF!!!" whenever someone criticisea their actions. For the record, I think you had the best interests of the encyclopedia in mind when you closed that TfD (against consensus, in my opinion, making it a good-faith IAR), but that doesn't mean I have to agree it was the right thing to do. -- grm_wnr Esc 13:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

That's all I'm looking for. From the above comments, I didn't feel I was getting even that. Mackensen (talk) 13:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I thought I had found consensus. The only consensus I'm seeing here is that people believe I didn't follow policy/process. I assure that I believed, and still believe, that I did. In any case, the box has been undeleted and is on DRVU anyway. Mackensen (talk) 11:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• You believed, and still believe, that policy/process allows the person nominating a template for deletion to be the one who closes the discussion? Really? If so, then my apologies... the problem is not bad faith but lack of understanding of the process. However, I really have to strain the AGF muscles to believe that and that you thought there was a consensus to delete the templates so long as the content was kept. I don't see how you could have reached that conclusion, and obviously (based on the objections) it wasn't the intent of the participants, but if you really thought that was the 'consensus' you are again merely incorrect. I suggest that at best your view of the desired outcome colored your interpretation of the 'consensus'... which is why you shouldn't have been closing it in the first place. --CBDunkerson 12:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Why bring up the tally at all? The TfD is there for anyone who wants to go look at it (and I encourage them to do so, and participate in the DRV). It's very ... annoying ... to see people referring to numbers as if they mean anything, not least because the less-clueful-than-you are likely to get confused. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 11:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• I count 8 keep votes (more if 'as above' votes are interpreted to refer to only the vote above, but I discount that) that specifically refer to the template being harmless/worth retention. I am not commenting on the relative merits of the arguments, but having read them IMO the keep votes have sufficient weight to at least suggest a 'no concensus' result. BTW, it strikes me that we'd all save a bit of time if an official policy re userboxes was reached and supported. Colonel Tom 12:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Couldn't agree more. Comments desired at WP:MACK. Mackensen (talk) 13:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Somebody just said they valued policy over product. Rules-lawyering and process wankery needn't be given the time of day. Recommend community ban or immediate archival. — May. 16, '06 <freak|talk>

  Wow. Can't really make any other response to that. Just... wow. --CBDunkerson 17:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• I wonder what is the use of TfD these days when things like this happens. - Mailer Diablo 17:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I see Mack's viewpoint, but I also see the overwhelming consensus to keep the userbox. I do wonder what the use of TfD is as well. I think that the debate should've run the full course Will (_@) T 17:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• At this stage there's little disagreement on the matter. I also welcome your input at WP:MACK. Mackensen (talk) 17:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• no comment on good faith or bad faith but this template should have been kept because of the consensus Yuckfoo 19:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Mackensen and TFD for Template:User blogger

I'm concerned about Mackensen's premature closing of disscussions at . Not only did the closing action not reflect the building consensus (which, so far was to keep the template. as the discussion was on the template for deleation page, not a 'content for deletion' page), but the discussion was closed after only about 10 hrs. I would like to see the template restored and the debate reopened so that TFD can run its course. Mike McGregor (Can) 11:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'm concerned that this was brought here before politely asking me to undelete–which I did. Given that there's currently a new policy discussion underway (WP:MACK), I'm halting all further administrative action on my part regarding userboxes. I encourage Mike to take a gander at the proposal. Mackensen (talk) 11:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• could you also reopen the discussion at TfD please? Mike McGregor (Can) 11:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Obviously this is related to the item immediately above. Mackensen and Cyde have been both nominating and closing userbox debates (which isn't process) prior to usual expiry (which isn't process) and with delete actions regardless of the consensus (which definitely isn't process). As to bringing this here 'first'... there was a discussion on the TfD talk page that was quickly growing heated between the 'follow procedure' and 'admin opinions count more' (yes, someone actually said that) crowds. Bringing the growing problem here was not the 'first' thing done. --CBDunkerson 11:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• • I wasn't part of said discussion. Please note that the Pi boxes, at least, are on deletion review already (where they belong). Please also note that admins have always been expected to exercise their own good judgement. Bots can count votes. Mackensen (talk) 11:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Good luck to bots when some votes were rather implicit or even as original as peeK in a discussion on a userbox with reversed text. Friendly Neighbour 12:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Then we'll make better bots ;). Anyways, I've apologized elsewhere for apparently misleading people; I can only say that I honestly tried to make the best judgement call I could in the interests of the most people here. If you've been offended, I apologize for that. To that end, I've crafted a new policy proposal which is, at the moment, attracting support from all sides. It can be found here: WP:MACK. Mackensen (talk) 12:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• You fail to mention that the contents of Misplaced Pages talk:Mackensen's Proposal show both support and opposition, not merely support. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• That's not a failure on my part. My point was that the proposal was garnering support from both sides--which it is. There is opposition yes, but there's also support. The big thing is that I'm trying to get people to talk. Talking is good. Mackensen (talk) 13:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not involved in this issue, I don't care one whit positively or negatively about user boxes, but I do care about consensus, and I would like to ask people to try and work cooperatively and in the spirit of consensus. I will assume good faith and agree that Mackensen was trying come up with a position that could "garner support" from both sides, but that apparently was not how it was seen. Perhaps in situations like this where a compromise position does not have obvious broad support, the best tactic would be for the closing admin to keep the discussion going and ask if there is consensus with the emerging position, while keeping the debate open for another week. I have seen this work very successfully in other situations. There is no need to rush to a conclusion. -- Samuel Wantman 18:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Wiki-star uploading unsourced images

Wiki-star (talk · contribs) has been uploading unsourced images for months now, despite many warnings. This diff from his pre-blanking talk page shows a sample of the warnings left by OrphanBot and others. On several occasions other users have asked Wiki-star to provide sources for his images, but he simply replies that he is working on them; looking at his backlog of OrphanBot warnings, he hasn't sourced a single one, all the while continuing to upload new images without sources. Isopropyl 14:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• (Dare I show my face around here?) Well, I'd say that an administrator needs to warn him; if he doesn't respond in a reasonable length of a time a block is probably in order. Has he gotten any non-OrphanBot warnings? Mackensen (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I have, here. He hasn't uploaded anything since I've talked to him (that I can see, anyways), but I don't know how long that'll last. Snoutwood (talk) 14:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Then I suggest we table the matter unless he starts up again. Mackensen (talk) 14:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I have warned him on a number of occasions, with later warnings suggesting that he stop uploading images until he sorts the existing ones out. Isopropyl 14:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

If the user doesn't follow this advice, indef-block until they commit to it. It would be useful if we could turn off a particular user's ability to upload files. Then again, being this sloppy with sourcing their file uploads may be an indicator for a lack of respect for the project that we can do without. Jkelly 16:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The idea's been kicked around before but it bumps up against the notion of being a wiki, to say nothing about being additional instruction creep. Mackensen (talk) 17:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Being a wiki doesn't give us the right to infringe copyrights. If he uploads any more unsourced images, block him until he promises not to do it again. If he does it again after that, block indefinitely. Enforcing our copyright policy isn't instruction creep. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand Mackensen's objections, but I wonder if a proscription against a user's uploading images (where he/she has continually contravened our policies with respect to tagging and sourcing) is much different from a proscription against a user's editing a specific articles or articles w/r/to a certain topic where the user has been disruptive on such article or topic. I imagine that we'd not want image uploading-specific blocks to be doled out only by the ArbComm, as almost every article- or subject-specific ban is, but I think that, where a user may be productive on the whole but disruptive relative to certain specific articles/categories/actions, it's appropriate that we take action such that the users productive edits may continue whilst the destructive edits cease. Joe 22:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd be up for at least a short block on this user. Talking to him is impossible; you get mostly wild paranoia mixed with some patronizing comments. Isopropyl 22:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

porno spamming

this keeps happennning: every time it is spam for uzhgorod.ua can someone please blacklist it thanks Yuckfoo 19:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The second one, 196.12.137.52 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), was an open proxy and I have indef blocked it. If he's hopping around, try posting over at m:Spam blacklist to have the URL blocked. --GraemeL 20:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

More spam

I have blocked 72.21.45.10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for a week for spamming (creation of spam pages at locations such as Talk:Cold fusion/search/, Talk:Snowboarding/, Talk:Unbibium/, Portal talk:Lithuania/Portal talk:Lithuania/Guest book/ Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion/Danah boyd/index.php, Talk:W/search/, Talk:W/index.php). 84.108.242.113 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 86.51.0.131 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) also seem to take part in the spamming (I haven't taken any action yet for them). - Mike Rosoft 21:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

84.108.242.113 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is an open proxy and I have indef blocked it. The other two test clean. --GraemeL 22:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

MutterErde

I have blocked 195.93.60.132 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for a month for ban evasion. The IP is static, and he admits in this edit that he is MutterErde (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was indefinitely banned by Jimbo Wales. Chick Bowen 00:49, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The IP is static... Is that a special kind of humour? Man man man, you have blocked AOL Europe. Why nobody tells you ? 23:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.ripe.net/fcgi-bin/whois?searchtext=195.93.60.132 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.60.33 (talk • contribs) .

Actually, whoever that up there is, he's right . You should probably consider shortening the block, given that AOL IPs are almost always shared. AmiDaniel (talk) 23:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

See this too. I unblocked the IP as well. Prodego 00:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet confirmed but not blocked?

As directed by Essjay, I am bringing this incident here. This request for user check was confirmed. But no action was taken and it is now closed. Prin continues to upload photos violating copyrights - see Prin log, Benzee log and Jath16 log. Anwar 01:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

All three users indefinitely blocked, and their uploads speedy deleted. Ral315 (talk) 02:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

One of his old puppets User:Jathu is still unblocked. Anwar 04:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The return of Robsteadman?

Many admins will remember Robsteadman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and his dramatic exit — talking about the "christian cabal", wanting his user page deleted (which I did), then claiming that edits made from his account weren't from him, getting completely hysterical at Dekana's RfA, using sockpuppets, and finally getting himself blocked indefinitely. Someone has alerted me to the existence of Robertsteadman (talk · contribs). As can be seen from the histories of Lady Manners School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Bakewell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), there is some overlap with the contributions of Robsteadman. At a first glance, the contributions look inoffensive. But, if it is the same user, then there's a problem with a blocked/banned user coming back under a new identity. And if it isn't, then shouldn't there be a username block? AnnH ♫ 01:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

JaysCyYoung (talk · contribs)

I left a message on his talk page about meat puppetry, and he attacks me. I did nothing wrong but point out the policy on Meat Puppetry. He has many times removed warning tags, etc from his talk page. Ardenn 01:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

He also removed it from Talk:Queen's University. Ardenn 01:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

What's the focus of the dispute? Where's the alleged meatpuppetry (mmm...meat) taking place? Mackensen (talk) 01:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

It's taking place at Talk:Queen's University. A new user, LeftCoast (talk · contribs) and Tykell (talk · contribs) who go to the school, popped up recently. Ardenn 01:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm just trying to ensure this remains a neutral, fair impartial debate. I did list it on RFC. Ardenn 01:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I warn him about 3RR, and he removes it from his talk page. Ardenn 01:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Ardenne you need to stop being agressive and stop trying to bully other editors. You cannot behavwe in this manner. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 05:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Then start condoning the personal attacks and other complaints listed here. Ardenn 05:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's see - you try to bully him. He gets a bit upset over it. And you want me to block him? Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 05:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't try to bully him, please get that through your head. Are the rules less important to him than they are to me? I thought we all had to follow the rules around here. Yet he removes tags from his talk page, which is against policy, gets his buddy to violate 3RR, of which they go to the same school. If you want, I can put in for a CheckUser, but I'm sure it'll turn up what I suspect. Then suddenly today LeftCoast (talk · contribs) suddenly shows up, and his only edit is to that talk page. Sorry if I feel a little ganged up here. --Ardenn 06:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Padgett22

I am writing about Padgett22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The user has been placing photos that were removed, both from the pages Trevor Horn and Janick Gers, back after I have marked them as unsourced. These images have had their copyrights called into question. The user does not give any explanations when they revert them back. I have left a comment on the users talk page about this, but I am bringing it up here, since I wanted to change it back again on the Janick Gers page, but that would violate the WP:3RR. I am hoping someone can of higher power might leave them a message as well, lettting them know they should possibly not be removing my unsourced image claims. Thank you. --MOE.RON 02:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Joler1

This is a new user who seems to be placing improper deletion tags and warnings on numerous pages, including some "deleted" tags. Contributions: . I've left a message, but perhaps an Admin can provide better guidance, or even block temp to make sure edits are done according to policy. --mtz206 02:39, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

User:moe.RON

I am writing to report unsubstantiated deletions by user "moe.RON" regarding legally licensed images that I uploaded while following the Wikiepdia guidelines for image uploading. The first, Janick Gers, is the VHS cover photo of a foreign concert tape entitled "Dive! DIve! Live!" Video tape covers are listed as a viable option for photo uploads. The second, Trevor Horn, is the cover of the RECORD PRODUCER magazine dated 16 December 2002. Anyone familiar with RECORD PRODUCER knows that the front cover always is without text; the inside contents contains official text information.

Moe.ron has no proof otherwise and has been annoyingly removing these perfectly legal images. He demands that the user abide by his unsubstantiated image questioning techniques, which is unfair to Misplaced Pages users. I feel it is very dangerous for users and administrators to consider images "unsourced" without any proper evidence or cause. Thanks - Padgett22

I have deleted nothing. User:Meegs called into question the Janick Gers photo at this link. User:Meegs also put up the questioning of the other photo here. I was just merely reverting what User:OrphanBot edited here and User:Meegs edited here. --MOE.RON 03:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

(After edit conflict, it looks like Moe well encapsulates my views.) Notwithstanding that this likely oughtn't to be at AN/I, Moeron appears to have acted appropriately here; with respect to the first photo, the picture is almost certainly not an uncropped version of the VHS cover, and, with respect to the second, Moe's inference that the image wasn't the complete cover was wholly reasonable, and, even as I accept with good faith Padgett's adduction of Record Producer's having a text-free cover, I'd prefer that we be able to substantiate such contention (Google hasn't been of much help). In any case, Padgett seems to misunderstand our policy with respect to images; images are not presumptively included, they are presumptively excluded and must be accurately tagged with celerity, lest they should be deleted. Whilst each was tagged to provide copyright info, at least one tag appears to have been in error, and it was reasonable to conclude that the other was as well. Moe did not delete the images in question, and his commenting-out was consistent with policy; should proper copyright info be provided, the images can surely be returned to the articles. Finally, Moe wasn't acting as an admin here; he was simply commenting out unsourced images (likely) soon to be deleted, as any editor may and as any good editor should. Joe 03:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

There are only 105 hits for "Record Producer Magazine" which does make tracking the thing down rather difficult. However, it appears I did find a picture of one of the covers in a Google cache... in an ad that pops up after about three seconds. Lo and behold, there's absolutely text on the cover of the mag. JDoorjam Talk 04:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

That's the only image I find as well; it's difficult for me to believe that the magazine was previously published without any cover text, and I think we'd do well to err on the side of caution: to assume that the image is cropped from a magazine cover. Joe 05:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I am have also been looking for somewhere that has a picture of , but I am coming up with nothing. I really don't think that the VHS holder from this video would just have the guitarist and no writing/other members on it. Just my $.02 on that picture.--MOE.RON 05:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Clearing old posts from pages

I would like to ask help in clearing references to old posts from pages. Marlon Fire Thunder 05:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

John, I've already cleared out all of the edits that I can legitimately remove without controversy. The protected {{deletedpage}} articles have to remain, as you and your associates have tried to recreate them several, several times. The Village Pump comments will be archived (if they haven't been already). Other than that, there's nothing more that can be done--as I said before, it will take a couple of weeks before all of the major search engines re-index the site. Please, have patience! You're slowly wearing mine down. AmiDaniel (talk) 05:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Butterbean vandalism

User:Butterbean has been repeatedly vandalizing multiple Christian userboxes (Special:Contributions/Butterbean) even after being reverted and asked not to on his talk page. Gateman1997 05:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

What caught my attention is that it's a new account doing exactly the same thing Gosse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) did. Titoxd 05:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

He certainly looks like another sock of this user. He should probably be blocked indefinitely. Gateman1997 05:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Would somebody like to delete some porn spam?

Aww Nigga ... see also the AFD here Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Aww Nigga

Non-notable bio ... vandalism ... nonsense ... WP:SNOW based on the AFD ... whatever. My speedy template has been removed twice. Rather than have a 3RR-type issue I thought it better to say something here. If I'm wrong and this can't be speedied, ok. Either way, good night. BigDT 06:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Do {{d}} or {{prod}}; Absolutely no need for the AFD. --Avillia (Avillia me!) 06:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

It's gone.--MONGO 07:02, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

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