Talk:Jesus - Misplaced Pages

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: What should this article be named? A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname. Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates? A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format. Q3: Did Jesus exist? A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Misplaced Pages?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

Based on this Misplaced Pages search the phrase is widely used in Misplaced Pages.
The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Misplaced Pages guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Misplaced Pages guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian? A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally. For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine, Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."
Finally, Misplaced Pages policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others? A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc. Q6: Why is the infobox so brief? A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?: Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?: The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus? A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions. Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences? A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians. Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus? A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion. Q10: Why does the article state "ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this? A10: Misplaced Pages requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

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Disruptive edit to introduction

Despite having no consensus for his claims, Humanpublic went ahead and inserted his claim into the introduction. What is more, his edit was intellectually dishonest in the extreme, as he took a source that states categorically that Jesus existed and used it to claim that there is no evidence for Jesus's existence. Given that Humanpublic has been informed about Misplaced Pages's policies time and time again, his edit appears to be clearly disruptive. Controversial changes are to be discussed on the talk page, and using sources to claim the opposite of the main message of the source is just dishonest. Should it be repeated, it looks like a clear case for ANI. If Humanpublic wishes to argue for the change to the introduction, he is of course welcome to do it. Preferably with sources that support his argument.Jeppiz (talk) 01:36, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I just saw that and after the long discussion above regarding arguments from silence Embassy to Gaius etc. in this edit Humanpublic modified what the sources say, and added WP:Synthesis using a source by Ehrman which effectively rejects the assertions made in the very edit. I did not revert that not to start an edit war with a WP:SPA, but that was a disruptive in my view in that it misrepresents the source and the user has been informed of that in a very long discussion above. History2007 (talk) 01:40, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

~~Yes, I've rarely seen such a dishonest edit in so many ways~~. The proper way to edit is to discuss controversial changes first, then edit. Not insert controversial claims in spite of a consensus to the contrary. And talking a long article that categorically states that Jesus existed and using it as a source to claim there is no evidence that Jesus existed is certainly dishonest editing.Jeppiz (talk) 01:45, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

What I wrote didn't "categorically" state that there is "no evidence for the existence of Jesus." I said exactly what the source says.

The source says: "there’s no physical evidence or archaeological evidence that Jesus existed—which is absolutely true. There are no writings from Jesus—absolutely true. There are no Roman sources from Jesus’ day that mention Jesus—again, true."

I added to the article: "There’s no physical or archaeological evidence that Jesus existed, nor are there any writings from Jesus. There are no sources from the time Jesus is alleged to have lived that mention him."

If you'll explain how I "modified what the source says...and added synthesis" (what exactlly is "synthesis"), we might be able to work together.

OK, I omitted "Roman". If I add that back, will that be acceptable? Humanpublic (talk) 01:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Please read WP:SYNTHESIS. And also note that a source may say Jerusalem is south of Galilee but that does not by itself qualify it for inclusion in the lede. What you knowingly did was change scholars of antiquity to NT scholars, and precede that with a sentence comment from Ehrman, an author who a few paragraphs later rejects the applicability of the lines you picked. Your edit was a clear reflection of your own views which were being discussed 2 sections above, and you were told about the scholarly views just above and how scholars see your view of having very little relevance, if any at all. So you should have discussed those, not use sources that contradict your own views. History2007 (talk) 01:57, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

He calls them "absolutely true". That's a weird way to "reject the assertions". The fact that there is no archaeological evidence and no contemporaneous evidence of any kind for the existence of Jesus is relevant and likely to be of interest to people. It is highly relevant to the readers making up their own minds. It belongs in the article and, if historical existince is going to be in the led, it belongs in the lede. Nothing I wrote is synthesis as the page you linked to defines it. I nearly quoted the source exactly, except for dropping the word "Roman." You are censoring. Humanpublic (talk) 02:07, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

No, as I said, a source may say that "it is absolutely true that Jerusalem is south of Galilee" and you say why should it not be added, given that I quoted the source. Please read WP:LEDE. The lede must reflect what the body of the article states. A detailed discussion of the first century sources has not been presented in the body and can hence not be present in the lede. If there is a detailed discussion of 1st century sources in the body, then its conclusions can get "summarized" in the lede. If you think a lengthy discussion of first century sources is needed in this article, it can of course be discussed. But unless present in the body can not go in the lede per WP:LEDE. But that is just one problem, and whatever goes in the lede must be a clear reflection of the scholarly consensus on the subject, again per WP:LEDE. Else another user will add something else Ehrman said next to yours, and the lede will be the size of 3 sections. There are policies and guidelines, you seem unaware of them, and are walking all over them. And please avoid multiple reverts, for an edit war will buy nothing except headaches and wasted time. Please discuss before reverting. History2007 (talk) 02:21, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The basic idea is already there: "Supporters of the Christ myth theory point to the lack of any known written references to Jesus during his lifetime and the relative scarcity of non-Christian references to him in the 1st century, and dispute the veracity of the existing accounts of him.". If I add info about archaelogical evidence (none) and writings of Jesus (none), will you accept that? Humanpublic (talk) 02:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Also, if there is scholarly dispute about the nonexistence of any evidence from his alleged time, please provide sources. Humanpublic (talk) 02:33, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The problem is WP:Due as well as WP:LEDE and of course WP:Fringe now. Although the "supporters of the Christ myth theory point to the lack of any known written references to Jesus" that section makes it clear that the myth theory is a WP:Fringe item. And fringe items can not get prime time in the lede. The long and short of it is that your edit is giving prime time importance to a WP:Fringe item, and is hence running over multiple policies. A few sections above there was a long discussion and a clear consensus that Christ myth theory items are WP:Fringe items and should be minimized in this article. You certainly saw that discussion. Hence please avoid the addition of WP:Fringe items to the lede, for even their inclusion in the body was rejected by consensus a few sections above here. Hence the path you are following is going to lead to nowhere for it is both clearly against the consensus established a few sections above and clearly against policy per WP:Fringe and WP:LEDE both. History2007 (talk) 02:41, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I saw that you added a sentence on that, and I added proper overview sources. As you see, the lack of 1st century sources is not accepted by scholars as an indication of non-existence. Hence you can not give it prime time in the lede, per WP:Synthesis, WP:LEDE and WP:Fringe. Is that clear now? History2007 (talk) 02:57, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

What you added was, ironically, an enormous amount of "synthesis" as defined in the link you gave me. And, NONE of it it is verifiable since it is all from books. Please cite below all of the actual source text you are using in what you jus added. Your comment about the lede doesn't make sense to me. The lede should contain what is highly relevant. The absolute lack of physical evidence is relevant to historicity, so if historicity belongs in the lede, so does the lack of evidence. Please quote the texts you cite below, so we can assess them.... Humanpublic (talk) 03:07, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

What nonsense. It is verifiable; if you want to verify it, get the books. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:09, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Seb is right of course. I did get a chuckle out of "NONE of it it is verifiable since it is all from books." You need to read WP:V as well. Books by well known publishers are the best WP:RS sources. Trust me that after writing 600 articles I know how to source. Trust me on that one per WP:AGF. I do not need to quote my source so you can assess it. Trust me on that, and read WP:RS about books being the best sources. As for lack of sources being relevant, so is the inapplicability of arguments from silence. Look, there is an entire article on Christ myth theory and you are effectively attempting to do a WP:Merge on these two articles. If you wan to do that, suggest it here, and there. All your edits are pointing to the presentation of Christ myth theory in the lede. If that is to happen, there needs to be a WP:Merge. To make it easy for you, I will suggest it in both places. And we will let the process begin. Now, remember WP:3RR, stop reverting for a day or two and let us see what people say about the merge idea. Ok? History2007 (talk) 03:18, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not "applying" any arguments. I'm informing readers of facts that are true, relevant, interesting, and sourced. Everything you added is just an attempt to belittle those facts. And a lot of it is synthesis and irrelevant. According to the definition you gave, the argument from silence applies mainly to writings. The facts I added are about physical and archaeological evidence. Please quote the texts you are citing. You made your edit less than 20 minutes after mine, and added seven sources. I find it hard to believe you carefully examined seven scholarly books in less than 20 minutes. Humanpublic (talk) 03:39, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Now, read WP:AGF and stop this. Understand? I do not need to examine 7 books in 20 minutes. I have researched this topic for years. I know exactly where to get the sources for I have spent years on that. The 7 sources I added came from... you guess. I had even given you the link in the section above, you did not even read it. History2007 (talk) 03:45, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. You complained I was merging Christ myth theory with this article, then you took whole chunks of text and references from Christ myth theory and added them to this article. Have you actually read the sources you cited?? Humanpublic (talk) 03:54, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

and have you read his explanation. Not everyone here started reading books yesterday. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:57, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I will have to stop for a while, but will be back later. History2007 (talk) 03:50, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I think this discussion is an instance, of a more general WP:Fringe issue, as below. I will just briefly mention that in the historical method arguments from silence may go beyond text, have been discussed since the Rankian method, are part of folk knowledge, and are a somewhat weak method of analysis in many cases from a historical analysis perspective. Nothing new to write home about. History2007 (talk) 13:16, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I didn't present an argument. I added true relevant and sourced facts. You then added a bunch of synthesis about the argument from silence, apparently with sources you haven't read. Again, please tell us: 1) which of the sources you added have you actually read, if any, 2) what they actually say. Thanks. Humanpublic (talk) 15:07, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the argument you made, we both could and should mention in the relevant section of the article that there is no physical evidence for Jesus. However, when so doing, we should stay true to the sources and reflect what they say. Surely you agree that the main message of the article you cite is that there is no doubt about Jesus's existence. Now, if you want to make an argument about this historical person being very different from the "Christian Jesus", you have both my support and, more to the point, the support of good academic sources.Jeppiz (talk) 15:27, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is now taking place on Chris myth theory, where he is even asking if the term exists. Good Heavens. This is eating time like anything, but here is the term The Argument from Silence John Lange, History and Theory, Vol. 5, No. 3 (1966), pp. 288-301. Quite obvious actually. But this is bordering on comedy now, asking if the term exists, asking for a "basic tutorial" on the historical method, etc. Anyone can type into Misplaced Pages of course, logical or not, but this is pushing to the limit of absurdity. History2007 (talk) 15:42, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

This user is now running wild, cutting items all over the place based on Misplaced Pages:I just don't like it. In this edit he deleted a ref to the Oxford Dictionaty and added a website. I have not looked at the website yet (which may eventually get WP:LINKROT), but the Oxford Dictionary is a good source. In the next edit just deleted a source statement that goes against his arguments elsewhere. This needs to stop. History2007 (talk) 16:00, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Have you read the sources you added here, or not? I see the material I removed from Argument from silence was added by you. You used a 2007 translation of a text from the year 1103 as a source. You misquoted another book that was not reliable anyway--a book on trade in ancient Greece not a source on the general validity of a type of argument, and it didn't say what you said anyway. You don't seem to bother to actually research the sources you use.Humanpublic (talk) 16:08, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Support topic ban. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but may get a block before a ban anyway, and he started the ANI thread himself. I am out of breath here. In this edit he deleted a statement from Yifa based on Misplaced Pages:I just don't like it really. History2007 (talk) 16:25, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I also support a topic ban. ReformedArsenal (talk) 18:21, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The issue of a topic-ban is discussed here .Jeppiz (talk) 19:41, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

History2007: Have you read the sources you added? Please provide the specific text you are citing, so other editors can assess it. Thank you. Humanpublic (talk) 23:34, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

History2007: Have you read the sources you added? You copy/pasted the text from another article. You added multiple book-length sources in under 20 minutes. Have you read them or not?

Please, as a matter of informing both your fellow editors and our readers, provide the text from the sources that you are relying on.

The argument from silence is about statements, not physical or archaelogical evidence. What does it have to do with my edit? Thanks. Humanpublic (talk) 17:37, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

My fellow editors? But of course. Yet that made me smile... I liked that one. Now, two points: Let me categorically, categorically state that as far as I recall I have read or checked every single source there some time in the past few months. Every single one. In the case of Van Voorst, I practically know that book by heart now. As I said upfront, I brought it over from the other article and AGF-ed on it because your edit was so far off. Let me say that again: because your edit was so far off. But why should I say it: another user said it to you much better:

Bart Ehrman's interview on Jesus-mythicists "There are no Roman sources from Jesus’ day that mention Jesus—again, true. Our only sources come decades later by biased individuals who believed in Jesus, and that they’re not trustworthy sources. Those are their negative arguments. I deal with all of those arguments. I lay them out as fairly as I can and then show why they’re not very good arguments, even though they sound really good. When you actually investigate them they’re actually not that strong." to User:Humanpublic "There are no sources from the time Jesus is alleged to have lived that mention him." (period) wouldn't of itself be a problem if acres of Talk page bytes hadn't been trying to explain to User:Humanpublic why that isn't good processing from source to high-profile article lead copy. Too much WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT on Talk, too much of being an evangelist for the WP:TRUTH. The rest of the editors on that article (of whom I'm not one) deserve a couple of weeks' rest.

He said it very well. Your edit took the first part of Ehrman's utterance, ignored the fact that Ehrman demolishes that in the second utterance and just left it there. It is of no use quoting Ehrman to suggest non-existence when he is a strong supporter of existence. It is like quoting Milton Friedman to support more regulation. Anyone who has ever read Freedman knows he was against it. Anyone who has read Ehrman knows that he defends existence. So there is no point in using Ehrman as a source to suggest that the lack of contemporary evidence maters when Ehrman's basic tenet is that it does not matter. But he said it well anyway about the past discussions on this eating time here, so I really don't know why I have to say more on that issue. The other brouhaha on the Arguments from silence page was along the same lines as this. Oxford Dictionary is no good, etc... In the end: nothing. Zero. Zero. This one will probably amount to the same. In fact that entire quote you added and what I added to it from the other page needs touch up given the above statement about Ehrman, and I will address that later today or tomorrow. The suggested vacation is over I guess... I just love Misplaced Pages... History2007 (talk) 18:35, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I quoted his support for the nonexistence of physical, archaelogical, and written evidence, which is appropriate because he supports those views. He calls them absolutely true. I did not say he "supports nonexistence." You are being dishonest.

Please provide the source texts you're using to support your edit. Humanpublic (talk) 20:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Your statement "You are being dishonest" is surprising and unacceptable to me. I issued yet another notice, and stated that a block is in order for you based on the continued disregard for WP:NPA. I can not continue editing here in the face of unchecked and continued personal attacks by you after multiple warnings that go unheeded. I will hence have to stop editing here due to these continued personal attacks. History2007 (talk) 21:01, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I felt the same way when Jeppiz said I was "dishonest in the extreme" and that I made "the most dishonest edit" he's seen in a long time. Why aren't you demanding that he be blocked? Humanpublic (talk) 21:08, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

My due apologies. Sorry if it sounded harsh. I thought, and I still think, it was a rather bad edit and I thought and still think it misrepresented the source. I should only have said that, nothing more, so I'm striking it in my comment above.22:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC) (user:Jeppiz)

The brouhaha seems to have died out now in any case. So I will try to make some edits, and fixes. History2007 (talk) 05:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

In that case, will you participate in dispute resolution? Humanpublic (talk) 19:14, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

You were reverted by various other users. It is just not me. I have commented there already. That is it. As Jeppiz suggested above, I will stop feeding you now. History2007 (talk) 19:48, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Right, you think you don't need DRN in order to "win", so why bother. How about working collaboratively? Humanpublic (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Humanpublic you can work collaboratively or you can engage is massive edit-warring, forum-shopping and harassing users who express different opinions to yours. This far History2007 has chosen the former while you've chosen the latter, but if the statement above means you'll opt for the former from now on, then all the better.Jeppiz (talk) 15:41, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Refusing DRN is refusing collaboration. Your agenda has become obvious with your latest ANI. You're just a drama-hound. At least History2007 is here for something he believes in (albeit with a lot of biases). Go back to ANI and find some new carcasses to pick at. Humanpublic (talk) 15:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I've written a long reply at DRN, get your facts right.Jeppiz (talk) 15:57, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, there he goes again... What can one say? History2007 (talk) 15:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Historical views items

As I said above, the discussion above about claims of Jesus and beliefs of early followers, seems to indicate that this article needs more on the background of that. We can already know that there is no consensus on Jesus' claim to be a Messiah or God because:

There are only 3 solid issues on which there is almost unanimous agreement: existence, baptism by John and crucifixion by Pilate.

There are 8 items on which there is general agreement, but nowhere close to unanimous, in 2 groups of 4 (as explained in this section):

Jesus was baptized, called disciples, had a controversy at the Temple, was crucified by the Romans

Jesus was a Galilean, he confined his travels to Galilee and Judea; after his death his disciples continued; some of them were persecuted

There is no general scholarly agreement on anything else at all and a feudal system exists among scholars with 5 mainstream schools of thought being: apocalyptic prophet, charismatic healer, Cynic philosopher, Jewish Messiah and prophet of social change

I think something simple and similar to that needs to be added here for clarification.

The comment by Jepiz above about additional articles reminded me of the need for clean up elsewhere. If you guys feel like doing something to improve this topic, in my view is that here is the place to start, as suggested back in October. Note that the last talk page comment there was December 2010 and no one seems to be working on it. That article is really written with the mindset that the Commodore 64 is still the main force in personal computing. One can not present a study of the historical views topic without that article. In any case, the biggest positive impact can be provided by dispelling the rumor that the Commodore 64 still reigns and that the scholars mentioned in the Quest for the historical Jesus still represent the field.

Now, to add some of the historical views material here, per WP:LENGTH, some of the "life in the bible" material should go, and we can move that elsewhere. But should not be hard to do. If you guys agree, we can move out some of the life in the bible material, and add more about the historical views items such as apocalyptic prophet, charismatic healer, Cynic philosopher, Jewish Messiah and prophet of social change. That should not be hard either. History2007 (talk) 00:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Lead

I've been trying a little bit to follow the discussions, but found it overwhelming. Yet, I would like to make two proposals for the lead, in the same sentence, namely in "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed."

"Virtually all contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed":
"Although the Christ myth theory has received support from some scholars (references), virtually all contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed."

No intent to stir up discussions again, but trying to give a compromise. The Christ myth Theory is also mentioned in the article, so it deserves mention in the lead; yet, more than that is not necessary I think. Those who are interested can find out for themselves, by following the links and references. No need to push points here. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:58, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Please see this discussion. As you can see there, there used to be a whole section on Christ myth theory. Some users wanted it deleted because it is WP:Fringe and per policy can only get links and no sections. Being on the side of pragmatism, I favored keeping it to avoid debates with IPS. But the final decision was to get rid of it. Now, regarding "Christ myth theory received support from some scholars" as discussed on the archives there are less than handful whichever way you count them. There may be 2, 3 or 4 at most and certainly not a single professor of History or Classics supports it. So it really more WP:Fringe than those who argue against the speed of light. And given that it has no section now, and is fringe it could not go in the lede. But your suggestion for "contemporary scholars" seems valid to me, given that 50-70 years ago there were scholars, but the trends have changed and these days there are hardly any at all. History2007 (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually I mention "contemporary" because the sentence is ambigue to me: did those scholars live during antiquety, or are they contemporary? Apparently, it can even be interpreted in three ways. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:25, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Unless of course one of the scholars had been Larry King (who had lived from antiquity to modern times, as I joked there before). But I guess "modern scholars of antiquity" would make it clear in any case. History2007 (talk) 21:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I definitely support adding modern/contemporary to those sentences for clarification. I myself initially got the impression that the sentence was referring to ancient scholars.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:20, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

It didn't occur to me that "scholars of antiquity" might be taken to mean "scholars from antiquity". Since there is agreement (at least at the moment) that adding "contemporary" to the sentence would be a good idea, I went ahead and did it.Smeat75 (talk) 04:31, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I've looked up Voorst, and his statement regarding the historicity of Jesus is in a section on Wells. It would be fair to start the sentence with "Although the historicity of Jesus has been questioned" - for which Voorst himself is a reliable source, since he deals with this topic. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry, but when there are very , very few fringe (mostly amateur, non-academic) people questioning something, per WP:Fringe it matters not and is never mentioned in Misplaced Pages when the mainstream item is discussed. The article on geology does not talk about the Flat Earth theory, of course. Does the Misplaced Pages article on the speed of light talk about "speed of light deniers"? Of course it does not, again per WP:Fringe. Let me put it this way:

"there are more professors of physics who deny the constancy of the speed of light than professors of history who deny the existence of Jesus".

Andreas Albrecht and João Magueijo are two examples of speed of light deniers. Now, (per John Dickson's challenge above) could someone find one full professor at a department of History or Classics in a good university that denies existence? Dickson said on ABC News that he will eat a page of the Bible if a professor is found.

As discussed before, per WP:Due, as Jimmy Wales explained: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article."

The flatness of the earth has also been questioned, but per WP:Fringe it only gets discussed in its own tangential article not in the geology articles. There are of course some members of the "amateur brigade" who have written self-published items that say Einstein got it wrong, the earth is flat or Jesus did not live, but not many professors say that. And in the case of the existence of Jesus, no professors of history or Classics say that. Non-existence of Jesus has "no academic support" and is a pure fringe theory and per WP:Fringe can not be given any weight in the 21st century. Period. History2007 (talk) 10:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

But then it's still the question why the historicity of Jesus is mentioned so explicitly, with notes underscoring this point? I think the answer is obvious: because the historicity is denied by some, which is exactly what Voorst, and also Ehrman (2012) are responding to. At least Voorst and Ehrman deem the issue to be important enough to mention. As the lead is now, their response is being mentioned, but the issue they are responding to is not. That's not logical, is it? Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:26, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Historicity is denied by the "amateur brigade" and hence that needs to be clarified. And "some" is vague and may suggest there are 20% of the academics, but in fact they are 0% of the academics. And note that although Van Voorst does mention Wells, as has been discussed here and in the article, in the words of Van Voorst Wells did an "about face" before the end of last century, and now agrees that the Q source likely refers to a preacher whose followers grew and formed a church. And as this discussion pointed out, policy is clear on the use of WP:Fringe items. They do not come in along with mainstream ideas. That is policy. History2007 (talk) 13:49, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The lead is supposed to summarise the rest of the article. The idea that there was never such a person as Jesus and the virtual unanimous rejection of that idea by the scholarly community is discussed in the section "Historical Views" under "Existence". Ehrman, a secular scholar, makes a stronger statement than this article does about "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed", he says that "every single scholar of early Christianity...universally, as an entire body...(every) recognized scholar in that field of scholarship" does, ]. To mention the very fringe "doubters" in the lead would be to give them undue weight.Smeat75 (talk) 14:06, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll read it, thanks. The %-argument is clear. I still see an inconsistency, though, presenting the arguments against the "fringe theory" in the lead, i.e. paying attention to this debate, but not mentioning the "fringe theory" itself, against which the arguments are directed. But never mind, it's okay so. There are still plenty of links, for those who are interested in "fringe theory". Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I personally have no strong opinion on this but considering such lengthy discussions i think third opinion templates might be appropriate. Pass a Method talk 09:39, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:3O is only appropriate when the disagreement is between only two editors. ReformedArsenal (talk) 11:09, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

rather not; there's already so much discussion going on at this page. Personally I'm sympathetic toward those Christ Myth Theories, especially Earl Doherty, but History2007 has got sound arguments, pointing out that those theories are not supported by mainstream academics. That settles the discussion, I think. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:58, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. History2007 (talk) 10:06, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

History2007 has no argument about mainstream, secular historians at all. The fact is, to date, not a single peer-reviewed source has been provided stating that it is a fact Jesus existed. THe overwhelming majority sources used for this claim are books written for a popular audience and/or theologians who got their training an degrees from Bible colleges. What History2007 has regarding consensus is not any neutral poll. What is widely referred to as the "consensus" is the beliefs of those who have bothered to express an opinion on the matter, and those are almost entirely Christian theologians and the authors of popular books. We know it is false that "virtually all" scholars believe Jesus existed, because if that were true it would be trivial to find secular historians--not profs of religion, not New Testament scholars, but actual historians--saying Jesus existed as a fact in peer-reviewed journals. And yet, nobody has produced any. None of this is surprising, since History2007 is a Bible-based SPA with 75000 edits, and 90% of them about the Bible.

Meanwhile, the editors who guard these pages have an evangelical majority dedicating to censoring factual sourced material, such as this. There is zero physical or archaelogical evidence for the existence of Jesus, and there is no contemporaneous mention of him in any record. Relevant facts that these editors want to whitewash and downplay, because they don't want this encyclopedia to cast doubt on their Messiah. Humanpublic (talk) 14:34, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

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