Talk:Jesus - Misplaced Pages

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: What should this article be named? A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname. Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates? A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format. Q3: Did Jesus exist? A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Misplaced Pages?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

Based on this Misplaced Pages search the phrase is widely used in Misplaced Pages.
The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Misplaced Pages guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Misplaced Pages guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian? A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally. For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine, Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."
Finally, Misplaced Pages policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others? A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc. Q6: Why is the infobox so brief? A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?: Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?: The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus? A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions. Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences? A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians. Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus? A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion. Q10: Why does the article state "ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this? A10: Misplaced Pages requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

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Lead

I've been trying a little bit to follow the discussions, but found it overwhelming. Yet, I would like to make two proposals for the lead, in the same sentence, namely in "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed."

"Virtually all contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed":
"Although the Christ myth theory has received support from some scholars (references), virtually all contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed."

No intent to stir up discussions again, but trying to give a compromise. The Christ myth Theory is also mentioned in the article, so it deserves mention in the lead; yet, more than that is not necessary I think. Those who are interested can find out for themselves, by following the links and references. No need to push points here. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:58, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Please see this discussion. As you can see there, there used to be a whole section on Christ myth theory. Some users wanted it deleted because it is WP:Fringe and per policy can only get links and no sections. Being on the side of pragmatism, I favored keeping it to avoid debates with IPS. But the final decision was to get rid of it. Now, regarding "Christ myth theory received support from some scholars" as discussed on the archives there are less than handful whichever way you count them. There may be 2, 3 or 4 at most and certainly not a single professor of History or Classics supports it. So it really more WP:Fringe than those who argue against the speed of light. And given that it has no section now, and is fringe it could not go in the lede. But your suggestion for "contemporary scholars" seems valid to me, given that 50-70 years ago there were scholars, but the trends have changed and these days there are hardly any at all. History2007 (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually I mention "contemporary" because the sentence is ambigue to me: did those scholars live during antiquety, or are they contemporary? Apparently, it can even be interpreted in three ways. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:25, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Unless of course one of the scholars had been Larry King (who had lived from antiquity to modern times, as I joked there before). But I guess "modern scholars of antiquity" would make it clear in any case. History2007 (talk) 21:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I definitely support adding modern/contemporary to those sentences for clarification. I myself initially got the impression that the sentence was referring to ancient scholars.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:20, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

It didn't occur to me that "scholars of antiquity" might be taken to mean "scholars from antiquity". Since there is agreement (at least at the moment) that adding "contemporary" to the sentence would be a good idea, I went ahead and did it.Smeat75 (talk) 04:31, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I've looked up Voorst, and his statement regarding the historicity of Jesus is in a section on Wells. It would be fair to start the sentence with "Although the historicity of Jesus has been questioned" - for which Voorst himself is a reliable source, since he deals with this topic. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry, but when there are very , very few fringe (mostly amateur, non-academic) people questioning something, per WP:Fringe it matters not and is never mentioned in Misplaced Pages when the mainstream item is discussed. The article on geology does not talk about the Flat Earth theory, of course. Does the Misplaced Pages article on the speed of light talk about "speed of light deniers"? Of course it does not, again per WP:Fringe. Let me put it this way:

"there are more professors of physics who deny the constancy of the speed of light than professors of history who deny the existence of Jesus".

Andreas Albrecht and João Magueijo are two examples of speed of light deniers. Now, (per John Dickson's challenge above) could someone find one full professor at a department of History or Classics in a good university that denies existence? Dickson said on ABC News that he will eat a page of the Bible if a professor is found.

As discussed before, per WP:Due, as Jimmy Wales explained: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article."

The flatness of the earth has also been questioned, but per WP:Fringe it only gets discussed in its own tangential article not in the geology articles. There are of course some members of the "amateur brigade" who have written self-published items that say Einstein got it wrong, the earth is flat or Jesus did not live, but not many professors say that. And in the case of the existence of Jesus, no professors of history or Classics say that. Non-existence of Jesus has "no academic support" and is a pure fringe theory and per WP:Fringe can not be given any weight in the 21st century. Period. History2007 (talk) 10:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

But then it's still the question why the historicity of Jesus is mentioned so explicitly, with notes underscoring this point? I think the answer is obvious: because the historicity is denied by some, which is exactly what Voorst, and also Ehrman (2012) are responding to. At least Voorst and Ehrman deem the issue to be important enough to mention. As the lead is now, their response is being mentioned, but the issue they are responding to is not. That's not logical, is it? Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:26, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Historicity is denied by the "amateur brigade" and hence that needs to be clarified. And "some" is vague and may suggest there are 20% of the academics, but in fact they are 0% of the academics. And note that although Van Voorst does mention Wells, as has been discussed here and in the article, in the words of Van Voorst Wells did an "about face" before the end of last century, and now agrees that the Q source likely refers to a preacher whose followers grew and formed a church. And as this discussion pointed out, policy is clear on the use of WP:Fringe items. They do not come in along with mainstream ideas. That is policy. History2007 (talk) 13:49, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The lead is supposed to summarise the rest of the article. The idea that there was never such a person as Jesus and the virtual unanimous rejection of that idea by the scholarly community is discussed in the section "Historical Views" under "Existence". Ehrman, a secular scholar, makes a stronger statement than this article does about "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed", he says that "every single scholar of early Christianity...universally, as an entire body...(every) recognized scholar in that field of scholarship" does, ]. To mention the very fringe "doubters" in the lead would be to give them undue weight.Smeat75 (talk) 14:06, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll read it, thanks. The %-argument is clear. I still see an inconsistency, though, presenting the arguments against the "fringe theory" in the lead, i.e. paying attention to this debate, but not mentioning the "fringe theory" itself, against which the arguments are directed. But never mind, it's okay so. There are still plenty of links, for those who are interested in "fringe theory". Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I personally have no strong opinion on this but considering such lengthy discussions i think third opinion templates might be appropriate. Pass a Method talk 09:39, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:3O is only appropriate when the disagreement is between only two editors. ReformedArsenal (talk) 11:09, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

rather not; there's already so much discussion going on at this page. Personally I'm sympathetic toward those Christ Myth Theories, especially Earl Doherty, but History2007 has got sound arguments, pointing out that those theories are not supported by mainstream academics. That settles the discussion, I think. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:58, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. History2007 (talk) 10:06, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

History2007 has no argument about mainstream, secular historians at all. The fact is, to date, not a single peer-reviewed source has been provided stating that it is a fact Jesus existed. THe overwhelming majority sources used for this claim are books written for a popular audience and/or theologians who got their training an degrees from Bible colleges. What History2007 has regarding consensus is not any neutral poll. What is widely referred to as the "consensus" is the beliefs of those who have bothered to express an opinion on the matter, and those are almost entirely Christian theologians and the authors of popular books. We know it is false that "virtually all" scholars believe Jesus existed, because if that were true it would be trivial to find secular historians--not profs of religion, not New Testament scholars, but actual historians--saying Jesus existed as a fact in peer-reviewed journals. And yet, nobody has produced any. None of this is surprising, since History2007 is a Bible-based SPA with 75000 edits, and 90% of them about the Bible.

Meanwhile, the editors who guard these pages have an evangelical majority dedicating to censoring factual sourced material, such as this. There is zero physical or archaelogical evidence for the existence of Jesus, and there is no contemporaneous mention of him in any record. Relevant facts that these editors want to whitewash and downplay, because they don't want this encyclopedia to cast doubt on their Messiah. Humanpublic (talk) 14:34, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

As has been pointed out to you time and again Humanpublic, that statement ""Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed" is sourced to Bart Ehrman and Michael Grant, among others, and "mainstream, secular historians" is exactly what they are. You dismiss Ehrman on the grounds that he went to a theological college (although he is no longer a believer in the Christian religion) and eminent classical historian Michael Grant on the ludicrous grounds that he "wrote popular books". Grant was a very high flying academic scholar who had such success with writing history for general audiences that he was able to resign his academic positions and devote himself to writing, which is a tribute to him, not something that disqualifies him as a reliable source. I recommend you read WP:Fringe and particularly the sentences in the section "In-text attribution" - Since fringe theories may be obscure topics that few non-adherents write about, there may only be a small number of sources that directly dispute them. Care should be taken not to mislead the reader by implying that, because the claim is actively disputed by only a few, it is otherwise supported. Most historians and scholars of the subject do not bother to refute "there was never such a person as Jesus" as it is simply not taken seriously among experts. I would appreciate it, by the way, if you could stop presenting yourself as being censored on this page by evangelical Christian fanatics.In my case that is so far off target as to be laughable and comes close to being a personal attack.Smeat75 (talk) 16:41, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Ehrman is not a historian at all. He's a religion professor. His background is in theology. Grant's expertise was coins. Humanpublic (talk) 15:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

You might want to read WP:Truth. Misplaced Pages follows what professional sources say. It doesn't matter what you believe that the "facts" are. If virtually all professional sources say the world is flat, then Misplaced Pages needs to say that the world is flat.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:46, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Correction: then Misplaced Pages needs to say that all professional sources say that the world is flat. Which is exactly what this article does do (regarding the existence of Jesus, of course, not the flatness of the world). That there may be a bias in the academic c.q. theological world is a possibility which is emntioned in the Christ Myth Theory article. We can keep on arguing about "truth", but Misplaced Pages is about what secundary sources say, not about determining what the "truth" is - though we cannot completely discard notions of truth, of course. For pragmatic reasons, I think it's okay as it is now: an article on Jesus, which reflects the scholarly concensus on Jesus, and additional articles which also reflect other opinions. Anyone interested in the alternatives can find more than plenty by a simple Google search (Christ Myth Theory & Jesus Myth Theory). By the way, I also like social-constructionism, so I find "quid est veritas?" a very nice Biblical quote. We simply won't know who or what Jesus was - or wasn't. So be it. And although I doubt whether Jesus really existed, I've got a Jesus-statue hanging on the wall, for very strong personal convictions. But mentioning this may be a violating of the non-chat rule, isn't it?

Best regards to everyone, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:30, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Distinguish

We should be distinguishing beteen a historian consensus on a human Jesus existing amd a divine Jesus existing because the next sentence and next paragraph speaks about divinity, possibly confusing the reader. Pass a Method talk 13:41, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The existence of Jesus is hardly disputed, but some of his divine actions are. That's basically what the first two sentences of the paragraph is saying. Doesn't look confusing to me. Adding "human" in front of "Jesus" in the first sentence is somewhat awkward and maybe more confusing. I suggest beginning the second sentence with "However..." This might make it clearer for readers the lack of consensus among historians regarding Jesus's divinity.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:58, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Only in a Biblical culture would somebody say "some of his divine action are ." The "divine actions" of Jesus have the same status as those of Zeus. Humanpublic (talk) 15:59, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

virtually all scholars agree jesus existed

There are several problems with this sentence. For example:

It is cherrypicking sources. Multiple other sources such as those in Christ myth theory and google scholar give a different picture.
It violates undue weight. For example why cover consensus on his historicity but not consensus that the supernatural claims are are unfounded?
It is misleading since "Jesus" has different definitions to different people.

I think we may be seeing a display of WP:CHRISTIANPOV out here. Pass a Method talk 19:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:Stick Please read the FAQ and previous discussions.---FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:09, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The phrase "virtually all scholars" is a Christian POV. The source is almost always a professor of religion or theologian, and always a popular book. When challened, the Christian POV-pushers define "scholar" narrowly to exclude critics. THere is no neutral, independent poll, which is the only real RS for a claim like that. Humanpublic (talk) 15:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

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