Talk:Argument from silence - Misplaced Pages

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Examples in fiction

I was wondering if situation of the dog in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Silver Blaze would be a good example of argument from silence in fiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.234.222.130 (talk) 10:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Virgin Birth misrepresentation

I notice that the old claim that the Virgin Birth being an argument from silence was put in back. Sigh, people it is not an argument from silence but rather a syllogistic logic:

Major premise: In the first century CE it was widely believed that women were the 'soil' into which a man planted his soil (THE VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS Is it a fact or fable? Part 1)

Minor premise: In Roman 1:3 ([KVJ http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4690&version=kjv) Paul says: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Seed here is translated from the Greek word 'sperma' from which the modern word 'sperm' comes from)

Conclusion: Paul refutes the virgin birth--by his own words.

This logical conclusion (as well as a at least one challenges to the logical steps) can be found at Jesus Police, Telling the Lutheran Story--Do Lutherans believe Jesus was born of a virgin?, The Virgin Birth - Separating Myth from Fact!, The Mystery of Paul's Ignorance by Louis W. Cable, and New Testament Contradictions (1995) by Paul Carlson to name a few locations. In fact, Paul Carlson expressly states "The apostle Paul says that Jesus "was born of the seed of David" (Romans 1:3). Here the word "seed" is literally in the Greek "sperma." This same Greek word is translated in other verses as "descendant(s)" or "offspring." The point is that the Messiah had to be a physical descendant of King David through the male line." This is not novel research, people so stop claiming it is and stop claiming something that can be demonstrated as to be untrue. Herod's slaughter of the Innocents is a far better example of an argument from silence.--216.31.15.35 (talk) 00:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Side note it is not disruptive to post referenced facts. It IS disruptive to post things have have been show through references and quotes to be false. This is NOT the place for agendas. Unless people can shows that current skeptics actually use the argument from silence for the virgin it has no place in this article (claims by apologetics is NOT proof).--216.234.222.130 (talk) 07:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You were restoring a version that was argumentative, instead of presentative, and used primarily biased and unreliable sources. Sources should be professional for an article of this nature - some college kid's rambling on a website is not an acceptable source, whether you believe him or not.

On a side note - "God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,". This indicates a virgin birth, from what I've read - see here. It is an apologetics site, but at least explains kind of what I'm trying to explain. There is another article on what exactly was meant by "virgin" here.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 23:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, KrytenKoro, but if you had bothered to read the references provided you would have seen that "God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law" was used to 'dismiss the virgin birth at the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church site:

"Paul, who wrote between 49-64 A.D., had no interest in Jesus’ origins. His only references to Jesus’ family came when he said that Jesus was "born of a woman, born under the law." He asserted that "according to the flesh," Jesus was descended from the House of David (Romans 1:3). Paul also made reference to Jesus’ brother, a man named James. No divine origin here, no miraculous birth, no virgin mother." ("The Virgin Birth - Separating Myth from Fact!", Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church)

"Paul, describing Jesus’ birth, says that "God sent his Son, born of a woman" (Galatians 4:4), using the word gune (woman) rather than parthenos (virgin). In Romans, Paul specifically states that Jesus came "from the seed of David, according to the flesh." (1:3) Surely Paul, the Christian master of marketing, writing before even Mark, would have promoted Jesus’ virgin birth if it had been the case. A final problem with the idea of the virgin birth/conception is that following the birth, as described in Luke (2:22), Mary undergoes the ritual purification ceremony. Had Jesus’ birth been virginal, there would be no need for Mary to be purified. Indeed, as the virgin bride of God, the thought of purification would be anathema." ("Mary Was a Virgin", Jesus Police)

There you have it; both a Christian church and a pro historical Jesus site stating that the "God sent his Son, born of a woman" passage does NOT refer to a virgin birth. Worse yet the Pro historical Jesus site found another passage in Luke that further refutes the idea of a virgin birth as being an "argument from silence".--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I actually don't care whether it's relevant, for or against any virgin birth anywhere or when; someone needs to tidy this section to make it comprehensible. Remove some of the theological jargon, where possible. I can't make heads or tails of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.139.149 (talk) 21:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I tried to get rid of it entirely because it is not a real Argument from Silence for the reason outlined above but it was promptly put back in. Herod's Slaughter of the Innocents is a far better example of how Argument from Silence than convoluted claims about the Virgin Birth. Especially as there were 2nd century Christians who didn't believe in it.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Now that somebody has added four reference refusing the virgin birth is exclusively an argumetn form silence I think it is safe to say that dog is dead and gone.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Has anybody brought up Luke 1:34? That's an affirmation of the Virgin Birth from Luke. I certainly could argue against all the anti-Virgin Birth points, but it seems as if everybody agrees that the Bible has a lot to say about the virginity of Mary, so no argument from silence. I too will remove the reference, in agreement with BruceGrubb.Glorthac (talk) 20:24, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Fallacy?

If the a.f.s. is used as a proof of certain ignorance, it's fallacious. If it's used a proof of possible ignorance, it isn't. You can't dismiss it out of hand as fallacious, as I've tried to explain in the article. Jacquerie27 22:04 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

It's an interesting article, Jacquerie27, although it might be tedious to make it complete. It would serve no purpose to use these encyclopedia articles as a place for debating what after all constitutes "silence" - that argument would never end. Nevertheless, the article asserts as a fact that St Paul is silent concerning who the father of Jesus is - or rather, concerning the event of the virginal conception. I'm sure that you recognize that this only seems reasonable if an alternative explanation is adopted for St Paul's consistent reference to Jesus as the Son of God. There are alternatives, of course: gnosticism, docetism, etc. But with "orthodox" assumptions, the virgin birth appears to be explicitly mentioned every time this title is used of Jesus. Although this does show a glaring committment to skepticism underlying the article, I don't think that the article would be improved by adding arguments from the other side. What would you recommend, instead? Mkmcconn 20:27 May 6, 2003 (UTC)

I agree that the article flirts with tedium,

He quite didn't say that, and I'm still interested to know what objective test you're applying to decide whether an article is interesting or not. If you've got one, what score does an article have to reach on the index of interest to meet your approval? I'll fall short of it, I know, but I'd like to know whether I'm improving. Jacquerie27 14:00 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

especially when it makes the sophistic point that the argument from silence "proves" that Paul "may not have known" about the Virgin Birth. Geez -- to prove that something may have been the case doesn't sound like much of a proof!

The whole point of the a.f.s. is that it establishes possibility, not certainty. If you've got a way of proving for certain that he knew or did not know about it, lots of scholars, famous and otherwise, would be very interested to see it. Jacquerie27 14:00 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

I do however take strong issue with the claim that the argument has "famously" been used against Paul. The use of the passive voice and the word "famously" sound like the kind of rhetorical dodges that people use to excuse ignorance. Tell us which famous scholars have famously used this argument! If you do not, I will interpret your silence to mean you do not klnow, and I will delete the paragraph! Slrubenstein

You must be a Saki fan. Jacquerie27 14:00 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

By the way, Mkmcconn, I would not at all take Paul's use of "son og God" to refer to the Virgin Birth. In the Hebrew Bible, "son of God" is used to refer to Kings of Israel (who most definitely had biological genitors), see Psalm 2:7 and 89: 26-27. The Apocryphal book Ecclesiasticus uses the phrase to refer to "just" or "righteous" men, which echoes Psalm 17. I grant that the phrase has other meanings (e.g. angelic beings); other sources use the phrase as synonymous with "Children of Israel," so it had an ethnic connotation as well as a moral connotation. My point is that it is an idiomatic phrase that was not used in a way consistent with its literal sense, and that it is pretty likely that Paul and other early Christians "may have" used it just like other people at the time. Slrubenstein

I think that it would be safe to anticipate that as a very early Christian he might have been using the phrase as non-Christians at the time used it. However, it's hard to maintain when one considers the actual, distinctive way that Paul uses the phrase, and the peculiar significance this title has in Paul's explanation of salvation, by which we are "sons of God". But the issue would be hard to conclude, divorced from belief one way or another - that's what I mean by my warning that this article could invite an endless argument over whether Paul is in fact "silent" about who Jesus father is. Mkmcconn 22:19 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

quicky web-refs supporting the "famous use" of this argument:

All of these pages assert that the argument is in some sense "famous", or the standard fare of critics of the Virgin Birth. Mkmcconn

Thanks, Mkmcconn. It is famous, at least among skeptics. Jacquerie27 14:00 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

Actually the http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b1.htm linkc states "The phrase "of the seed of David" strongly indicates that Paul believed Jesus to be the son of Joseph, because Matthew traces Jesus' genealogy from David to Joseph. The phrase "according to the flesh" seems to imply a natural, normal conception and birth." which is clearly NOT an argument from silence. Furthermore the http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/The.Holy.Bible/Reasons7.Virg.Birth.Christ.html expressly states "The reference here (Genesis 3:15) is to the woman's seed, not to the seed of the man. This is unique because the common reference is always to the seed of the man-- "the seed of Abraham" (Isaiah 41:8), not the seed of Sarah, "the seed of David" (Romans 1:3), not the seed of Bathsheba, and so on." Note even Dr. Ian Richard Kyle Paisley admits that seed in Romans 1:3 refers to a non-virgin conseption even when he later tries to tap dance around it later by saying that "according to the flesh" reinforces the virgin birth. The logic simply doesn't hold because even Dr. Paisley uses the "the seed of David" (Romans 1:3) as one of the examples of how "the common reference is always to the seed of the man"; come on, doctor either seed in Romans 1:3 is an example of "the common reference is always to the seed of the man" or it isn't--make up your mind.--BruceGrubb (talk) 23:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Mkmcconn -- although I do appreciate the effort, the above links do not cut it. Let me lay my cards on the table: I do not believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, and I do not believe he was the messiah. My people have been rejecting these claims for 2,000 years, so you will understand why we are a little non-plussed when "skeptics" get passionate about disproving something we never believed. Slrubenstein

If skeptics were arguing to convince you of something you already accept, I could understand why you're non-plussed. They're not. There's also a lot of passion here from a member of your people:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/is714a.html

Your points in the VB article were also good and I've learnt from them. Jacquerie27 17:42 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

Be that as it may, I want to be crystal clear: my point has nothing to do with skeptics versus Christians, or with the question of whether or not Jesus was "really" born of a virgin. My only concern is what makes for a good encyclopedia article -- obviously the main pont of an encyclopedia is to be informative, and I think that all of us here pay at least lip-service to NPOV and accuracy as crucial to this objective. In this article, I have problems with the vague claim about "the famous" use of the argument of silence concerning the Virgin Birth. I am not questioning whether it is a good argument or a bad argument. I am questioning who has made this argument and how famous it is. Slrubenstein

In the context of the a.f.s, it's famous. It's discussed in the entry for "VB" in the Oxford Companion to the Bible. Jacquerie27 17:42 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

In general, I am dubious about relying on other websites to answer such questions -- that seems to me to be a rather weak form of research that undermines the credibility of our project. After all, we are a web-based encyclopedia. If we rely on other web-based encyclopedias or other web-based material for information, what real value are we adding to the web? How do we evaluate the information on other websites? I checked out the four websites, and did see that a couple of them invoked the argument of silence. But I do not know who made these websites and they do not seem to be original or authoritative; moreover, they did not provide any evidence as to who first employed this argument, or what its status is among Bible critics, theologians, and historians. You see, there really is a real world outside of the web and websites. There really are theologians and Bible critics who teach courses and write books and articles about these issues. Slrubenstein

See above about the Oxford Companion to the Bible. Jacquerie27 17:42 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

I think this article needs to report on what they are doing, and provide an account of debates over the virgin birth (and the argument of silence) in the context of these real debates amoung real people. This would take "real research" -- reading books, searching journals, etc. But the result -- a paragraph that said "The argument from silence was first raised by A in (year). Today scholars are divided into two camps: one (including B, C, and D) accept this argument for the following reasons... The other (including E, F, and G) reject the argument for the following reasons." THIS would make for an informative encyclopedia entry, rather than BS. Slrubenstein

There was no article on the a.f.s before I created one. It's not perfect, but it's a first step. If every article had to be perfectly worded and fully comprehensive from the moment of its creation, you wouldn't have many articles on the Wiki. And I won't ask what objective BS test you're using, or what rating the article gets on the BS scale. Jacquerie27 17:42 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

The problem is the Christan Apologists are misleading people as skeptics against the virgin birth of Christ do not use an argument from silence but rather use syllogistic logic:

Major premise: In the first century CE it was widely believed that women were the 'soil' into which a man planted his seed

Minor premise: In Roman 1:3 (KVJ) Paul says: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Seed here comes from the Greek word 'spevrma' from which the modern word 'sperm' comes from)

Conclusion: Paul refutes the virgin birth--by his own words (the use of the word 'spevrma'

Note this is all nicely cited so there is no original research. Deal with it.--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not "nicely cited". You've cited a source for a word, and the interpretation of that word, but then you've presented a novel synthesis from those cited facts. Find a reliable secondary source that says exactly what you're trying to say. Doesn't mean you're wrong, just that you can't source it in that way. Guy (Help!) 22:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It was cited Guy. Jesus Police, Telling the Lutheran Story--Do Lutherans believe Jesus was born of a virgin?, The Virgin Birth - Separating Myth from Fact!, The Mystery of Paul's Ignorance by Louis W. Cable, and New Testament Contradictions (1995) by Paul Carlson all show this argument in one way or other. So far the only people I have seen claim it are Christian apologetic; show one modern scholar who actually uses the argument from silence regarding the Virgin Birth.--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm beginning to wonder how many times I'll have to tell you this. You cited sources you believe support your argument, but not one of them uses the phrase argument from silence. You need to find a reliable independent source that says what you want to say. Guy (Help!) 12:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Guy, with all respect are you being insanely dense? The point of the references is to show that people do NOT use an argument from silence regarding the virgin birth as claimed by the Christan Apologists so of course they are not going use the phase 'argument from silence'. Ray Summers (a Professor and chairman of Baylor University) does use the term 'argument from silence' in refutation of the Herod challenge in his 1998 book Chronos, Kairos, Christos II: Chronological, Nativity, and Religious Studies pg 117. Furthermore the illogic of this position is seen in Farrell Till's Prophecy Fulfillment and Probability where he said ""...the complete lack of reference in contemporary secular histories to Herod's slaughter of the innocents..." Now he doesn't use the exact phrase 'argument from silence' does he BUT he is presenting one. A little logic here would be welcome instead of wile claims that have no references to who supposedly makes the claims being challenged. Without references these are strawmen and not relevant as anybody with a true scholarly mind knows.--216.234.222.130 (talk) 10:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that four book referenced going all the way back 1899 have been produced showing Roman 1:3 is used to challange the virgin birth we can safely say that the claim of the virgin birth is exclusively an argument from silence to be deader than a dodo.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:42, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Chris, I don't doubt the truth of your addition of "Legal" issues, but the credibility is lacking without some reference. Can you trace down som examples of which legal systems or legal decisions limit the use of the argument of silence, so that reporting it here doesn't sound so much like hearsay? Mkmcconn 17:35 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

"legitimate"

The article's use of the words "legitimate" and "reasonably" are somewhat POVs. While personally I mildly agree with them, I'll remove these adjectives for now. Shawnc 22:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Well I've retained the words but rewrote the article to be more neutral. Shawnc 22:57, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

OR

This article is literally comprised ENTIRELY of original research, without which it would just be a dicdef.--Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 08:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I should perhaps have added a comment here that I removed the tags after having added some sources to the scholarly section and the lead. There is a bit of OR in the text-book examples section, but I see no reason anyone would challenge that material, it's quite trivial. --Merzul 21:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Scholarly uses

As someone who is familiar with the Christian tradition and, to a lesser extent, with the Jewish tradition, I find these examples confusing. I am merely noting that these examples are somewhat esoteric, and if I find the time I will try to find more generally understandable references to add to (not replace) these examples. --Antelan 00:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

While I don't find them confusing I will argue they are bad examples in so they are at best questionable in their veracity. For example most current skeptics I have read say that by Romans 1:1-3 Paul not only shows he didn't know about the virgin birth but specifically denies it and it is evidently becoming common enough that some Christan groups (like the Lutherans) feel they have to address it. A better and more easily verified example would be Herod's supposed slaughter of the Innocents as only Matthew and no one else mentions it (not even Luke).--BruceGrubb (talk) 13:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the whole virgin birth essay in this section should be on a page about virgin birth. It seems irrelevant to have such a lengthy essay on that particular subject in an article that should be just about the logical fallacy. It's a good essay, it just belongs in the page about virgin birth, not here. I won't edit anything, just want to get others opinion on this. 71.29.252.187 (talk) 15:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Latin

My Latin isnt great, but isnt ad-to (i.e. ah hominem) should the fallacy not be argumentum ex silentio.I.e. Deus ex machina.86.156.52.67 (talk) 15:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and it should be argumentum ad silentium because the Latin preposition ad takes the accusative (as in baculum, hominem, ignorantiam), not the ablative like ex (as in baculo, homine, ignorantia). - Diaphanus 156.34.221.32 (talk) 10:27, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Another scholarly use

It would seem that historians, etymologists, and paleontologists consistently use a form of argument from silence when reasoning about when in the past a particular new development occurred.

For instance, imagine that we are historians in the year 3000 trying to establish the date that Misplaced Pages was created, given only fragmentary writings of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. If no writings prior to 2001 refer to Misplaced Pages but many writings after 2001 refer to Misplaced Pages, the silence of earlier writings taken together with the volume of later ones would tend to indicate that Misplaced Pages was created around that time.

Use of the fossil record by paleontologists and evolutionary biologists, and of the written record of word usage by etymologists and lexicographers, is similar: when an entity is not attested ("silence") prior to a particular period, but widely attested after that period, we take this as evidence that it developed in that period. --FOo (talk) 04:43, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

RfC "Argument from silence" within WP:Policy

I have posted an RfC at policy discussion section/query regarding Argumentum ex silentio over on WP:NPOV talk. I am mentioning it here because certain aspects of the argument may interest the editors here (20040302 (talk) 14:15, 3 March 2010 (UTC))

Bavli and Yerushalmi

I find it quite strange for an argument to be made that the authors of the Yerushlami did not know of the Bavli. I find it strange because the former was written before the latter; how could they have a copy of something not written? And as far as the other way in concerend, shouldn't it include a study of whether other writings are mentioned? How often does the Talmud quote other books (as opposed to people) by name, except when discussing their authorship? Not very often, I believe.

Yes, I know that the quote is within the rules. But shouldn't an example make sense?Mzk1 (talk) 11:57, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Legal aspects

The German Legal System does in fact not make use of juries at all. Judgements, be it in criminal, civil or public cases are reached by judges or the occasional lay magistrates ("Schöffen" would be the German expression). I think the "for example" part in brackets is misleading and should be deleted. Schnief (talk) 22:21, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Misuse of sources

The argument from silence is not an argument based on an absence of evidence. It is based on an absence of commentary--thus, silence. Obviously, it is valid not to believe in unicorns, and the reason is an absence of evidence. That's not an argument from silence.

I added a source from the history dept. at the U. Mass, replacing a dictionary of foreign terms. A university history department is a better source than a dictionary. History2007, who added the dictionary without quoting it, reverted that.

The source Errietta Bissa is a text on trade in ancient Greece. It is not a reliable source for the philosophical validity of a type of argument. I also see no evidence that the source supports the claim. Again, this was added by History2007.

The text from Yifa may be relevant, but it is impossible to say because, again, History2007 refuses to meet the burden of proof of showing that the citation is valid. He has a tendency to cite books he hasn't read. Humanpublic (talk) 23:18, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Not so actually. I added the quote from Bissa who is a prof of Classics, hence totally WP:RS, and she is expressing a general perspective on args from silence, so it is fine. I also added the direct quote from Yifa now, it is WP:RS. The Oxford Dictionary source was not mine, was there before, and was no reason to remove it. The univ of Mass source you added does not have an author name attached, and may have been some grad student - trust me university websites can get populated as part of a master thesis, etc. The U Mass page has some funny picture of a 12 year old if you look further down in the page - not promising. And you have been told about WP:LINKROT. Read it. History2007 (talk) 06:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

The topic is the validity of a type of historical method. You think the history dept. of U. Mass. is unreliable and should be deleted as a source, but a dictionary of foreign terms is "RS". And, you admit you haven't actually read the dictionary of foreign terms, and don't know what it says, but you're going to revert my edit anyway. Is this right? Humanpublic (talk) 16:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

You got it: There is no author attached to the U-Mass page, as I said above. Not clear who wrote it (may have been a student), as I said. You need to read WP:RS, as you were told to do before. The natural place for the definition of a term is...? And who produces good dictionaries...? There is no policy that says: delete an RS source if it is not on your shelf. You have been told this more than a few times now, but let me say it again: Don't delete an Oxford Dictionary because it is not on your shelf. That is what you must do. In any case, I added John Lange's article from History and Theory, so the applicable policy overrides it all now. History2007 (talk) 17:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Cherry picking criticisms

Please don't pile on cherry-picked criticisms, to the point of violating undue weight. Thank you. Humanpublic (talk) 17:50, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The items you removed in this edit were all sourced to WP:RS items by professors in the field. Please provide reasons why they are not WP:RS. Do not remove items per WP:Preserve. Do not start a revert cycle, but discuss why the sources are not WP:RS. History2007 (talk) 18:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say they weren't RS. I said it was undue. Humanpublic (talk) 18:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

THE VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS Is it a fact or fable? Part 1 http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b0.htm
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4690&version=kjv

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