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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jacoplane (talk | contribs) at 17:15, 22 May 2006 (this section is linked to from the request for mediation, so it shouldn't be archived yet). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Efforts combatting Islamophobia section

Despite the fact that I have edited on this section I'm wondering if it doesn't really fit into the article? The article is about the terminology and concept of Islamophobia and as such it strikes me as too presumptive for the article to in fact be using such a neologistic term (outside of quotes where the term has been used by others). Rather than editing out this section for these reasons what are others' views about retitling the section something to the effect of: "Examples of usage of the term islamophobia"? Netscott 10:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Err, no, that would be odd. The examples are examples of Goverments and orgaanisations fighting, or combating what they have described as islamophobia, and that is te reason for its inclusion. --Irishpunktom\ 11:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Following the example set by the Islamofascism article I've change the section title to be, Examples of use in public discourse. Netscott 12:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Examples of its use in public discourse would include almost the entire article!!! - That section deals specifically with "Efforts to combat(or fight) Islamophobia" --Irishpunktom\ 13:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure. If you look at the Homophobia article, for example, there is not anything that talks about efforts to combat it. However, there is the article LGBT social movements which documents efforts at improving civil rights for the LGBT community. There is also Homosexuality laws of the world & Category:Gay rights by country which describes the treatment of the community in different country. Of course, these are not documenting efforts to combat the neologism 'Homophobia', rather they focus on the more verifiable information on actual laws. Perhaps a better approach in this case would be to focus on the civil rights of Muslims around the world. As far as I can tell no such article exists as of yet. In the current situation, claiming that when the Prime minister of the Netherlands states one thing in a speech somewhere, and concluding that he is dedicated to "combatting islamophobia" seems like a bit of a stretch to me. jaco♫plane 14:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Explain how "Examples of use in public discourse" does not apply to every single cited reference in this article~? Also, if some additions to that section are debatable, explain why please? --Irishpunktom\ 15:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Have you not read User:Jacoplane's comment above? Also as far as the specificity of combatting the wording just under the section title covers this. Netscott 15:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, now, answer the question, Explain how "Examples of use in public discourse" does not apply to every single cited reference in this article~?--Irishpunktom\ 15:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
What may be needed is a dab and two articles... one that discusses the terminology of "islamophobia" and another that discusses the concept that stems from the term. From having edited on this article for awhile now this strikes me as one of its recurring points of contention. Netscott 15:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that having two articles is a good idea. Firstly, because normally an article (or group of them) should use single definition and be good basis for discussion across WP. In my opinion existing Examples of use in public discourse section is a way too detailed. In characterization sub-section opinion of questionable importance are being discussed. We possibly cannot and shall not include each and every article mentioning issue. Secondly, because of a disputed nature of the article. We don't have to multiply entities w/o need. -- tasc deeds 16:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with Jacoplane that material on civil rights of Muslims would be worthwhile, though probably not in this article. Nysin 18:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • As far as the section title's application to every reference, this is a good point that you make and in fact I'm inclined to have this section title encompass the References to section as well. Netscott 15:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
When it comes to criticism or support of the term islamophobia we're talking about Meta discussions. The term isn't actually being used but is being discussed. Do you see the difference? Netscott 15:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Of course its being discussed!! The very concept is discussed in those sections! --Irishpunktom\ 15:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Did you actually visit the meta article? Netscott 15:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and you are still wrong. How can a section which disputes the application of a word not be discussing the word?!--Irishpunktom\ 15:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry let me be a bit more precise. Please see Meta- and know that what I'm talking about in terms of the criticism/support discussions surrounding islamophobia is indeed meta-islamophobia discussions. Netscott 15:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Interesting that you should mention WP:POINT in one of your editorial comments when you're the one who's making a rather asinine edit that does a blanket encompassing of everything being public discourse despite my explanation of the difference in the section title relative to the concept of meta-. By making this new all encompassing section title it is you yourself who's demonstrating WP:POINT behavior. Netscott 15:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • The heading refers to its use in Pblic discourse, this is a sideshow and irelevent, as all the cited references relate to its use in Public discourse--Irishpunktom\ 15:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The more I think about this proposed edit, the more I like it. Specifically because of the neologistic nature of this term, a section towards efforts to combat it strikes me as strange and presumptive. With a neologism, it is useful to demonstrate exactly how the term can be used. There's another consideration here for me, which may be somewhat beyond the scope of this article, but in general, I think if other neologisms have a "Examples of use in public discourse" section, then so should this. Misplaced Pages, in its push towards 1.0, is going to need some conformity in this regard, a general template for certain types of articles. The Islamofacism article seems to be a decent model for this to me. Bibigon 17:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • One can think about the meta distinction here as that between "X discusses Y" and "X discusses (X' discussing Y)". Yes, "X' discussing Y" ultimately relates to Y, and as such so does "X discusses (X' discussing Y)" but that sort of recursive conceptual resolution brings up reductios best avoided insofar as Y here (Islamophobia) isn't a primitive concept itself. X and X' are people practising public discourse.
  • For example, the idea of Islam underlies that of Islamophobia and that of monotheism underlies that of Islam. Is everything in this article about monotheism? Well, yes, to some degree, but that obscures a useful distinction. Given that the goal should be to communicate, that would prove counterproductive. Instead, the article should separate meta-discussion, such as criticism, from discussion, such as government ministers pronouncing Islamophobia something to oppose. Nysin 18:02, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Nysin i could not disagree more, islamophobia is a word/concept that is currently being defined in the world. The critisms are a part of this process not a seperate discusion. Also this is not a dictionary entry that just defines the word, it is an encyclopedia that has to show the examples of and effects of the concept in the real world. This means i think both the critisisms of islamophobia and the things people/groups are doing to combat islamophobia have a place in the artical as it is at the moment.Hypnosadist 18:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Islamophobia is a word/concept currently in the process of being defined, and criticisms are part of that. I therefore agree that criticisms of Islamophobia belong in this article. However, that doesn't erase the difference I discuss in the entry you respond to, and thus they belong in a separate section of the article, under a separate heading. Nysin 19:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about? The term is being used since 15 years and has a very clear definition. Criticism of Islamophobia is IMHO superfluous since every term describing a racism is derogatory by definition.Raphael1 16:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
What's the (or an) Islamic race? Nysin 17:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
What's the jewish race? Raphael1 17:59, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know, but then I'm not making claims which require me to know. Nysin 18:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
There is no jewish race, but anti-Semitism is still a form of religious racism. Raphael1 18:08, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Support that using reliable sources. Nysin 18:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Jewish ethnic divisionsRaphael1 19:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Right, so Jews don't constitute a race. How about that "anti-Semitism is still a form of religious racism"? Nysin 19:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Do you honestly doubt, that anti-Semitism is a form of racism? Raphael1 20:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Missed this whilst responding to Bibigon. Whether I honestly doubt antisemitism is a form of racism isn't relevant to the validity of objections raised, but yes, I do. Because I doubt that Jews constitute a race, I doubt that one can coherently refer to racial discrimination against such a group. Nysin 05:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
You might want to read Social interpretations of race resp. the American Anthropological Association Statement on "Race". Raphael1 20:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I read both of those. Interesting, but I'm not sure what specifically you had in mind? Nysin 21:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
By interpreting the term "race" socially (as "population" resp. "ethnicity") anti-Semitism as well as Islamophobia can be seen as racisms. Raphael1 22:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
A couple of points:
  • The AAA statement refers only to race in scare-quotes, as something of dubious objective reality. Whilst I don't intend to take a position on whether there exists more substantiation to the notion of race here, I'll note just that the statement leaves open without too much prejudice (compare race with and without scare quotes) the possibility of such (which would support my position) and apparently views the race it describes as pernicious at best.
  • The section of Social interpretations of race on "Race as a social construct and populationism" doesn't mention religious groupings, nor does the rest of the article.
Shocking, another ostensibly cited but in fact poorly supported statement by you. (Yes, AGF and all, but this gets tiresome.) Nysin 09:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Nysin, I don't grant the premise that Jews don't constitute a race. The U.S. Supreme Court has even ruled on this issue, and found that they do. Now the SCOTUS isn't a definitive authority, but I think they can be said to be a POV worth considering here. There are issues with that definition, but there are similarly issues with definining them otherwise. From the perspective of this debate, the questions are "Is someone who's Jewish connection is purely genetic subject to anti-semitism?" and "Is someone who's Islamic connection is purely genetic subject to islamophobia?" I'm not an expert in either subject, but a quick perousal of the topics and incidents reported lead me to believe the answers are in the affirmative and negative respectively. There is a legitimate difference between the nature of anti-semitism and islamophobia in this respect. Bibigon 19:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a strong position on this at the moment either way, but suggests that SCOTUS's descision was awfully circularly argued. To some degree natural language tends to operate like that, insofar as word usage can define word meaning, but the combination of the weak-looking argument (I'll look up the case itself as well, but later) and the fairly strong reply that "Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew" and yet "Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry" causes me to view SCOTUS's argument with skepticism, a notable POV though it may be. Nysin 19:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
This is why I suggested that there are issues with the definition of Jews as a race, namely, that one can become a Jew. However, cases of conversion are relatively rare, and the vast majority of cases of anti-semitism I would postulate have not been directed at converts, at least not at recent converts. On the other hand, a sizable amount of anti-semitism is directly at people who are Jewish only by blood, and live secular lives, without any claims of faith. Nazi Germany for instance operated in this respect on the basis of genetics, not on the basis of faith. Those who had one genetically Jewish grandparent were labled as being sufficiently Jewish for their purposes. This, along with other similar cases, suggests strongly to me that it is a race. Bibigon 20:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest, that you reconsider the reliablility of your sources. Refering to Nazi Germany as a source for information is dubious to say the least. Raphael1 20:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Would you care to elaborate on this point? Why exactly is Nazi Germany a dubious source on this issue? Bibigon 20:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but explaining that to you is just below my threshold level. Raphael1 21:01, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
You'll have to forgive me if such an answer doesn't satisfy my curiosity. This leads me to suspect that you don't really have a good reason for doubting the reliability of this source. Bibigon 21:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but there is no genetic connection to Judaism. For example Palestinian Muslims are members of the Semitic ethnicity too, but they are not targeted by anti-Semitism. Raphael1 20:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
All this does is suggest that anti-semitism isn't targetted at semitic people. The vast majority(Ashkenazi) of Jews aren't a semitic people is what the research I've read suggests. Pointing out that other semitic people aren't subject to anti-semitism doesn't mean that Judaism isn't a race, just that it's a not a semitic race. Bibigon 20:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you discuss your theory with the editors of the Judaism article. They clearly state, that Judaism is a religion not a race. Raphael1 20:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
1. No they don't. I don't know why you think you can make verifiably false statements and not be called out on it, but whatever. The only mention of race in that article is in connection to reform judaism. Nowhere else do they even bring up the race/religion debate.
2. Even if other Misplaced Pages articles did go so far as to say that it's not a race, I'm not wild about the idea of Misplaced Pages referencing itself as a source. But that's really a secondary issue here, given that you haven't shown yet that other Wiki articles have taken a stand on this question. If they fail to mention the debate, then that's a weakness of the articles, given that they would be failing to represent the POV of SCOTUS, among many others. It remains of limited relevance here however. Bibigon 20:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Raphael1, you couldn't be more wrong about the term Islamophobia having a clear definition. Don't you recall this discussion about how the term wasn't even found in numerous well respected dictionary references? Netscott 19:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Usage of the actual Islamophobia term in this article

For NPOV reasons this article needs to actually not use the term when discussing its use by others... this is another part of the reason that I've initiated the "Examples of use in public discourse" section. The section title "Efforts against Islamophobia" falls afoul of this principal concerning neutrality. Netscott 20:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The article should of course use the term itself, just as the articles on anti-Semitism and racism use the terms they describe. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability does not mean, that every article needs to put all it's content in a section called "Examples of use in public discourse". It is enough to cite sources so the statements become verifiable. Raphael1 20:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Raphael1, you're failing to understand the difference between an established term like anti-Semitism and a neologism like islamophobia, this is one of the reasons necessitating not actually using the term islamophobia in the article about it. Netscott 21:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
None of those articles identifies the terms of being neologisms I believe. They are all significantly better defined and understood than islamophobia. Bibigon 00:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Nonetheless all of those terms are neologisms. Do you think, that our readers will understand the term better, if it has a section called "Examples of use in public discourse"? Raphael1 10:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The following Misplaced Pages guidelines in effect support not actually using the "islamophobia" term when editing on Misplaced Pages: Misplaced Pages:Avoid neologisms. Let us please take these guidelines to heart and follow them accordingly. Netscott 08:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Your sincerity to only follow the guidelines would be much more plausible, if you'd have filed an AfD on War on Terrorism as well. Raphael1 09:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Opening definition

I've just come across this article for the first time, and was very surprised by the opening line. Having flicked briefly through the long discussion on this page it seems that there are two things that are dealt with in this article: a) irrational hatred of Muslims and Islam b) the etymology and use of the term 'Islamophobia' Both (a) and (b) should be covered by wikipedia. It seems obvious to me that (a) should be dealt with under the article Islamophobia, and (b) should be dealth with in either a section of this article, or an article of its own, entitled something like 'The term Islamophobia'. I will therefore rewrite the opening sentence to make it clear that the subject of this article is (a). Nomist 16:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Islamophobia Cat

There are equivalent cats for Category:anti-Semitism and Category:anti-Catholicism. Islamophobia is a similar concept. I'm today making a few other similar categories for future use -- I have done this before with great success. I don't want to get in an ideological war. Islamophobia is an appropriate subject for a category whether you agree with the concept or not. The newly created category is here Category:Islamophobia. --Ben Houston 03:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Category for Deletion: Islamophobia

Please note that User:Netscott has put the Category:Islamophobia up for deletion for the same reasons he originally put up this article for deletion (which resulting in a 30 to 5 vote for keep.) The CfD page can be found here Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_20#Category:Islamophobia if anyone is interested in voicing an opinion. --Ben Houston 17:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

intro section

Why do we mention the reports from HRW and CAIR that allege that there has been an "increase in hate crimes against Muslims and Islamic organizations", in the intro section? None of our sources that we refer to even mention the term "islamophobia". -- Karl Meier 22:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

They mention hate crimes against Muslims, which is islamophobic per definition. Raphael1 22:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
That's a very big claim Raphael. Who says that all "hate crimes" against Muslims are per definition "islamophobic"? -- Karl Meier 22:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Raphael is right. Islamophobia is a prejudice or hatred against Muslims. Anti-Muslim hate crimes result from prejudice or hatred against Muslims. Faz90 22:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
So you reject the possiblity that anyone that commit a "hate crime" against a Muslim could have other motives than what you call "islamophobia"? -- Karl Meier 22:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I in good faith reverted Karl's removal of this info but I too see why there should be reservations about having the info in the article as it stands. Wouldn't it be more pertinent to include examples of these organizations' actual utilization of the term "islamophobia" in the intro in terms of prejudice and hatred against followers of Islam? Netscott 22:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Protection

I have protected this article to prevent edit warring. Feel free to post on WP:RFPP to request unprotection; admins may unprotect this without further reference to me. Stifle (talk) 16:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks pretty much like a two-hander between Karl Meier and Irishpunktom to me. Can't we just warn them to stop playing silly buggers? --Tony Sidaway 16:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Netscott and raphael1 are involved too. There is going to be Mediation. --Irishpunktom\ 17:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Mediation seems appropriate at this time. Netscott 17:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)