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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. 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Doncram

Dasixiaoriben

Galassi

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Galassi

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

My very best wishes (talk) 04:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Galassi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Standard_discretionary_sanctions

Clarification: This user is already under personal editing restriction from October 2011 as stated here and logged here. According to this restriction, he is placed under an indefinite revert limitation on all Ukraine-related edits: not more than 1 revert per 48 hours per article, with the extra slowdown condition that before they make any content revert (obvious vandalism excepted as usual), they are required to first open a discussion on talk, provide an explanation of their intended revert and then wait 6 hours before actually making it to allow time for discussion.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. April 3. ,,,
2. April 1.
3. March 30. ,
4. March 18.
5. March 16.
6. March 17.
7. March 14

And so on, and so on. Every single diff was a violation of his editing restriction because: (a) all of them are Ukraine-related, (b) he never started discussions at talk pages of these articles prior to revert as he suppose to do per restriction; (c) none of these reverts is simply a vandalism fixing, as clear from his own edit summaries ("POV", sourcing, etc.). In essence, Galassi simply decided to ignore his restriction.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

March 17 Warning by admin about edit warring in Rus' people - related to Ukraine

October 18 2012 Edit warring warning by two admins in Little Russia - this is Ukraine

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

He apparently also edit war in ARBPIA area.

His problem is actually not the Ukraine-related topics, but a tendency to quickly revert edits by other contributors without talking. No, he does not follow WP:BRD cycle.

I run into this problem while editing articles that are not on Ukrainian subjects, but fell in EE area. He made this and this edits. This is a pretty strong statement (first diff) that "Although the case was officially declared as "completely fabricated" and all victims rehabilitated by Russian authorities in 1992 (ref) , the later research has shown that there was in fact a conspiracy, and Gumilev did take part in it (another ref) . He tells "in fact". How come? This claim simply contradicts most RS. Hence I reverted both changes per WP:BRD and started discussion at talk pages: here and here.

Galassi responded only by telling this in one of the talk pages, and then immediately reverted here (his edit summary: "not what sources say..") and here (edit summary "per recent reliable research"). This is the same problem as with Ukrainian subjects. But more important, as became clear from our later discussions ("POV" here and on his talk page), he did not even read any of the sources he refer to in his reverts.

I did not want to submit this request and therefore talked with Galassi to ask if he understands that reverting others without talking and without even checking the sources is not a good idea, and that editing restrictions must be respected, but without any success.

@Galassi. According to log in WP:DIGWUREN, this editing restriction is still active, and there is nothing about expiration date in the original statement . However, just to make sure, I asked you yesterday if you think the restriction has expired , and you responded "no" . Moreover, this is not the first time when we are talking about this , and you never said this restriction is no longer active. My very best wishes (talk) 12:22, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek. As I already said above, the problem of Galassi is not Ukrainian subjects, but rather his tendency to quickly revert edits by other contributors not only without talking, but sometimes even without looking at sources. And he starts edit warring (rather than BRD cycle) after making humiliating comments like this or no comments at all. That is why FPS made such unusual sanction. And when it comes to discussions, Galassi is not responsive. I asked him four times if he read a source, but he did not respond. For example, if he said me on his talk page that he understands the problem with his editing style, will improve it, and self-revert (self-reverting is simply a test showing that someone is ready to compromise), then I would never report him here. Therefore, I think the most sensible approach would be to extend this existing sanction by FPS to all EE subjects, rather than making the Ukrainian topic ban.

Please also see my additional explanation here.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

here

Discussion concerning Galassi

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Galassi

User User:My very best wishes and are involved not an edit war but in a content dispute, in which he relies on a single dated source. None of my edits were controversial (Ukraine related or otherwise). My topic bans are Ukrainians and the Battle of Konotop and my 6month restrictions have long lapsed.

In the case of Nikolay Gumilev's execution: I am translating the corresponding section from ru-wiki which is thoroughly sourced, as I stated in the relevant discussion.

User:My very best wishes's POV tendencies are evident also in his edits on the Yakov Agranov article, where he squarely lays blame for the Stalin's era repressions on Agranov, which to me sounds rather antisemitic, and I simply toned down the unencyclopedic tone of the article. In the case of Ilya Ehrenburg article, again, User:My very best wishes is intent on showing a "bloodthirsty Jew" by manipulating quotes and taking them out of context.--Galassi (talk) 10:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think Fut.Perf. ever informed me of any indefinite blanket Ukraine restrictions. I was only told of the 6month 1R, and there weren't any situations where that would have arisen. And as Volunteer Marek has noticed none of my edits were controversial, and there were no complaints for 2 over years. Certainly there weren't any issues with Fut.Perf. who, I assume, would have been watching what I do, as he has in the past. I think Best Wishes is seeking to "neutralize" me in retaliation for catching him in several instances of antisemitic POV.--Galassi (talk) 11:35, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

From Galassi's comment above, it's my impression that he thought the revert restriction was related only to the articles Ukrainians and Battle of Konotop, not anything to do with Ukraine, or for that matter, any topic what so ever (which the wording of the restriction seems to suggest if interpreted broadly). Add on top of that that most of his edits since that restriction have been non controversial, with only an occasional revert here or there, and basically nothing has happened since October 2011 to make him think otherwise. I would definitely advise against a topic ban on Ukrainian topics in general. Even if there's a violation here it seems like a idiosyncratic lapse two years after the sanction was imposed so he might have simply forgotten about it (yes, the edit warring's problematic but it looks like just somebody getting caught up in the heat of the situation - short term block for that is the usual remedy). Additionally, while it may not be obvious for a user who's devoted to a particular topic area an indefinite topic ban is essentially equivalent to a site ban. Way way too harsh. I think even My very best wishes would agree that that's going over the top.Volunteer Marek 22:20, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Additional comments:

As far as I can tell Galassi hasn't been brought to WP:AE since December 2010, and in particular, not since the sanction was put in place. So I'm assuming this is the first violation of the sanction (after two years) of significance. As a result I don't think an *indefinite* topic ban from Ukraine-related topics is appropriate. Some kind of sanction, maybe. But the way it usually works is that the first offense results in a short term block or a limited time topic ban, and the sanctions are only escalated with subsequent infringements. Basically, immediately jumping to an indefinite topic ban is way out of proportion here.Volunteer Marek 07:56, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Estlandia (Miacek)

Diffs brought up by My very best wishes clearly reveal that Galassi violated the restrictions. My very best wishes is also right when he states that Galassi is too quick to push the revert button. Instead of discussing with his opponents (like My very best wishes attempted to do), he simply chose to revert. I also resent the fact that Galassi is once again using the 'antisemitism accusation' () as a killer phrase when having a dispute. The accusation he presented on his comment here (″is intent on showing a "bloodthirsty Jew" by manipulating quotes and taking them out of context.″) runs contrary to our rules. Despite this, Galassi is a generally constructive contributor, he should just (1) drop the accusations of antisemitic (or Russophile) bias (2) stop edit warring and seek consensus instead. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 12:25, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

The only real issue I see that he has occasionally violated the "explain first" aspect of a complicated year-and-a-half old restriction. In the first five reverts noted above Galassi is reverting an IP editor who is making disruptive, nonsensical changes to an article. Although not vandalism per se, I think we should give a little consideration to the nature of those edits. The 1RR in ARBPIA actually exempts reverts of IP editors from such restrictions and for good reason. IP editors can and do make appropriate changes, but then you have instances like above where the IP adds some tendentiously-worded gobbledygook and is persistent in edit-warring in their nonsense. We shouldn't thump an editor for keeping that type of content out. Outside of those edits you basically have some occasional technical violations from March. These are far from justifying an indefinite topic ban.

As for Sandstein's talk about rollback, there is nothing untoward in Galassi's use of Twinkle. That tool is not the same as the rollback tool for a variety of reasons and is thus not subject to the same restrictions as the rollback tool. Anyone can get Twinkle by enabling it in their account settings so it isn't necessary for an admin to determine someone is a trusted editor before they can use Twinkle, and it allows for options that do not involve vandalism. It is not appropriate to suggest that Galassi should be barred from using Twinkle and not allowed to get rollback rights on the basis of the edits above.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:43, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Galassi

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I've asked the admin who imposed the restriction to comment, but to me, this looks like a clear violation of the editing restriction, which is a binding discretionary sanction. The statement by Galassi does not address the restriction or its violation at all, but only the content disputes in the context of which the violation occurred, but these content issues are irrelevant for the purpose of this request.

In addition, the reverts cited as evidence are problematic in and of itself: The series of 3 April 2013 violates WP:3RR. Several inaccurately characterize the reverted edit as vandalism (, ), or were made without an explanation in the edit summary (, , ), and one was made with the misleading summary "restoration of sourced content", when in fact it re-added unsourced content, including content tagged with "citation needed|date=May 2011". This constitutes disruptive editing.

Because these edits were made to articles related to Ukraine, which was also the scope of the original restriction, I am of the opinion that an appropriate reaction to this violation would be to ban Galassi indefinitely from editing anything related to Ukraine. Additionally, because in some of these reverts Galassi used an automated rollback tool (Twinkle) to rollback edits that were not vandalism, which violates the rollback guideline, they should be indefinitely prohibited from using Twinkle or another rollback tool, or from requesting rollback permission.  Sandstein  12:19, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

• I agree that this behavior violates the restriction imposed by FP and that it's time for an indefinite ban of User:Galassi from anything related to Ukraine. Since Galassi is not a new editor he would surely know how to behave better than what is documented here. If Future Perfect does come here to comment maybe he will consider lifting his original restriction (requiring discussion) and accepting this one in its place. Complex restrictions are hard to remember and hard to enforce. EdJohnston (talk) 22:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Rumiton

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Rumiton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User imposing the sanction

The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Sanction being appealed

Rumiton’s indefinite ban from all Prem Rawat related articles.

Log of Blocks, Bans and Restrictions

Here (scroll to bottom.)

Reason for the appeal

1. Indefinite bans without evidence of wrongdoing are against the Misplaced Pages ethos and seem to set a dangerous precedent.

2. I am a Guild Member, with over 10,000 edits to 1300 pages in 6 years. I have played a major role in bringing articles (Sinking of the RMS Titanic, German battleship Bismarck, Ernst Lindemann and Attack on Sydney Harbour) to Featured Article status, helped put out fires at Jesus Army, and fought a long and mostly losing battle to keep Sathya Sai Baba honest. Admittedly, none of these was as contentious as the Prem Rawat pages, where a battleground mentality has proved resistant to change, but I believe I have been a moderating influence there also. See , , , , , , , , ,

3. As a result of a Decision Amendment Request, this article has now been brought under Standard Discretionary Sanctions. There are eight SDS criteria, this action clearly fails:

i. No misconduct was identified that could “spill over to other areas of Misplaced Pages.”

ii. Additional input in this sanction does not appear to have been sought.

4. Blade’s comment, ‘‘I honestly hate to have to do this, but I think that the only way to stop the endless deadlock on the article is to go nuclear.’’ is controversial. Rather than an “endless deadlock”, the article was steadily improving. A flurry of minor and discussed edits had recently been made, some of which I politely objected to. Most of the other objections seemed focused on denigrating the subject and other editors, culminating in the outing of an editor and the blocking of the outer.

5. Re article neutrality, I believe the article has improved. Littleolive oil (uninvolved) wrote in Rainer P’s appeal: ’’I...now...sense that Rawat is controversial, has detractors and supporters, and I have a sense of what his tenets are. I no longer feel I am being manipulated to see Rawat in any particular way. The slant when I came in was pejorative.’’

6. Blanket banning has not helped this article. Arguably this article has gone backwards since November.

7. While I admire Prem Rawat’s perspectives and perseverance, I have never held any official position in any of his organisations and have certainly never been paid to edit. I have no COI.

I believe The Blade of the Northern Lights has made a mistake in applying this sanction to me, and I respectfully request that it be lifted.

Notification of the administrator

Statement by The Blade of the Northern Lights

OK, it took me a while to refresh my memory of all this, so here goes. First off, here is when I lifted the ban in August; I thought that Rumiton had done a considerable amount of good, neutral editing in a very tough article (2012 Assam violence was a gigantic mess and getting hit with all kinds of unhelpful garbage, and I commend him for the work he put in there). I thought it demonstrated his ability to keep neutral in a hard area, and figured it wouldn't hurt to allow him another chance at Prem Rawat. This is the statement I made on the matter in mid-December after I imposed the bans, when ArbCom decided to switch over to standard DS without vacating the sanctions I imposed. Since that time, my stance has not changed. As I alluded to, there's no one diff which can sum up what I was seeing, but it's the overall pattern which was the problem. I extensively talked this over with User:Steven Zhang (who I will notify now that I've mentioned him), who did a huge amount of mediation in the topic area, and he saw exactly what I did. Immediately after I imposed the bans several respected editors- including Jimbo personally- stepped in to undo several edits Rumiton had either done or supported; some of this can be seen at Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 50#Massive revert of content, and the rest can be seen in the article history from that time.

With regard to Rumiton's statement above, my view essentially echoes IRWolfie-. To the extent that this appeal is directed at me, I decline it, and to the extent it's directed at others I encourage others to decline it as well. If the ban was lifted I would have the same view I expressed in December about how monopolized the article was before my intervention, and the statement above does not allay those concerns. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

@Richwales; here are the series of edits which ultimately made me go through with the bans. The edits were all made by Momento, but Rumiton repeatedly expressed his support of them, starting at Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 50#Undue weight and moving through the next several threads. The edits were plainly tendentious and slanted, and Rumiton's total support of them indicates to me that he would pick up right where Momento left off. I explicitly talked about this with Steven Zhang, and he concurred based on the comments and his past experience working with Rumiton. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:46, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Littleolive oil

This ban should be investigated based on two issues, one on whether appropriate Misplaced Pages processes were or were not followed and two as a subsection of that what indications are there that the talk page processes on Prem Rawat were failing and a ban should be implemented. I came to the Prem Rawat article in August 2012 because of this comment on Jimbo Wales' talk page. I was an uninvolved editor with no knowledge of Prem Rawat or his organization. I idealistically hoped to help foster appropriate processes on the talk page and as someone uninvolved to quiet the incivility I found on the page. Simply, the talk page processes began to work and were on going and productive, (which I don't take credit for, but my intent was to help with this process). There was little or no edit warring although Pat W tended to degrade the process with incivility. In this atmosphere where editors had improved in their relations and progress was being made, Blade of the Northern Lights made a surprising and extreme move banning 4 editors, without diffs that illustrated problematic behaviour. Given the ongoing improvement in the article environment, the ban is puzzling to say the least. Not only where there no diffs, there were no diffs showing individual editor misbehaviour and nothing that I saw then indicated Rumiton should be removed from the article. Each editor on editing this article is an individual and while Misplaced Pages processes allow a single admin to ban or block based on discretionary sanctions, Misplaced Pages processes also indicate editors can expect to be told why they have been banned. I know that the Prem Rawat article is highly contentious and has been the subject of several arbitration. Unfortunately, the progress that was being made in term of collaboration was abruptly ended with this ban.

• • My concern with this whole issue is the continued focus on the past rather than on the present, and on viewing this article from one side and not holistically. When I went into this article, I knew nothing about Rumiton, Momento, or any of the other regular editor on the PR with the exception of Will Beback now banned from all NRM articles. What does that ban say about the dynamics of this article? Does it say the problems were all on one side. On the contrary, yet I went into this article with the assumption that certain editors must be at fault. Frankly that's not what I found. I found levels of aggression and incivility that eventually forced me to leave the article, and I found editors attempting to discuss perfectly acceptable points of contention and being attacked for doing so. Tendentious editing is a highly abstract idea. Better to lay out specific instances of concern than sweep the whole situation into the one bag of tendentious editing. Better to see who is doing what, and especially why without the added baggage of presumptions.

My sense is that like me, others came onto this article with a predisposed view of the situation based on the past arbitrations. There may well have been concerns as the arbitrations outlined. I am however, inclined to look at those arbitrations with fresh eyes given the input a now banned editor had in them and to look at the talk page of Prem Rawat from more than one angle What is needed now is not to look at the past, but at what really is happening now, and to remember on Misplaced Pages narratives about editors are easy to create, and easier still to perpetuate and grow until they become the accepted reality. Its not easy for an editor to undo such a narrative and its easy for the rest of us, by far, to assume that the narrative, by the time it reaches us, is the right story , rather than to change how we think and look at other people. That's as true in life as it is here. I'm convinced given my experience on the talk page of PR there's much more here than meets the eye and that these editors, specifically Rumiton in this appal, based on the improvements I saw pervious to the ban, deserve a chance to continue to evolve as editors hopefully leaving the past behind. If they don't the article, is under discretionary sanctions. If there is a next time, I hope clear diffs will used to show problems which should save time for everyone.(olive (talk) 18:18, 6 April 2013 (UTC))

Statement by Rumiton

@Sandstein. I know there is a lot of stuff to follow in this case, or cases. Here is where Blade's first ban on me was lifted, in August on Sept 5, 2012. Should this lifting have been advised on the Noticeboard? Rumiton (talk) 10:00, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Steven Zhang

Hello. My experience with the Prem Rawat articles spans back to 2008, where I have served as a mediator a few times over the years. Like all long-running disputes, this is a difficult one to resolve, and while there has progress over the years it has predominantly slow. Over the years, various involved editors have been topic or site banned, and the editors that have been involved for many years on the article has whittled down. Now, I'm not an admin and I'm not going to tell y'all how to do your job, but my assessment of the situation is this is an intractable dispute that no amount of dispute resolution can resolve. For disputes to be resolved, it is required that all parties have a desire to work together and move forward, and be open to compromise. From my experience, this does not exist, which leaves the article (which is a BLP) unstable, and prone to NPOV and edit warring issues.

I believe that The Blade has taken a precautionary approach in this situation, noting previous issues with editing that took place in the past. Rumiton had been topic banned three times from Prem Rawat in the past, for a period of one week, one year by ArbCom, and then indefinitely by The Blade (though this was lifted in September for 2 months). I agree with the reasoning of The Blade - in the past Rumiton and Momento have supported each other in the edits they made, even when these were in breach of policy. As pointed out, this continued at the time shortly preceding the topic ban, and I agree with his assessment that if Momento was topic banned, it would have been very likely to be picked up in some way by Rumiton. This isn't a sure thing of course, but based on the history of the article this seemed very likely, and thus a topic ban being a reasonable measure.

It is my opinion that the topic ban should not be lifted - of course it is not my decision, but I have a strong feeling that the article will become unstable if topic bans start to be lifted. I'd encourage the uninvolved adminsistrators to review the past dispute resolution attempts for Prem Rawat (below) and understand how intricate this dispute is before deciding how to act. I acknowledge that it is not the role of AE administrators to resolve content disputes, but your actions may make it easier or harder for us to do so, and it's a tough enough job as it is. Please think carefully. Regards, Steven Zhang 14:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Some of the DR attempts include - Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Prem Rawat all the way to Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Prem Rawat 6, the MedCab case I took (with the proposals for changes and associated discussions - one page alone amounted to 500k)

Statement by Momento

There is only one issue here and Rumiton has identified it, if vaguely, in his first point. As clearly expressed in ArbCom's "Burden of proof and personal attacks", "the onus is on the sanctioning editor to provide the evidence to prove his claim. (And) failing to do so may constitute a personal attack. The longstanding "No Personal Attacks" policy states that "serious accusations require serious evidence". BotNL offered no evidence at all. BotNL needs to provide "serious evidence""citing supporting diffs where appropriate" of Rumiton's "battleground behaviour over the last several months" prior to his banning. Irrespective of the evidence, or lack of it, a member of a minority "religion/group" like Rumiton will never win a Misplaced Pages popularity contest and the only way this sanction will be overturned is "with the written authorization of the Committee".Momento (talk) 22:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Not that my edits have anything to do with Rumiton but here is a synopsis of the 17 edits I made that caused BotNL to ban Rumiton. You'll note that 17 editors were editing the article at that time and none objected to my proposals or my edits when I made them. The edits are not tendentious or slanted, they were accepted without objection by the 17 editors editing and the 446 editors who have Prem Rawat on their watch list. A direct contradiction of BotNL's above claim that "the article was monopolized before (his) intervention". Momento (talk) 02:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by another editor

Statement by uninvolved IRWolfie-

Firstly I will note that significant consensus is required for an overturn: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Reversal_of_enforcement_actions. I will also note that I have never edited an article about Prem Rawat as far as I am aware. Now a point by point look at the appeal:

1. This reason for the appeal does not cite any specifics to the case.

2. Work at other article is entirely irrelevant to the current case.

3. I see no eight SDS categories. What I see is a summary of discretionary sanctions provided in 8 bullet points. Your quote, wherever it is from, is not a quote of WP:AC/DS. No additional input is required for any administrator to impose discretionary sanctions.

4. Subjective, unsubstantiated and irrelevant. It does not mention the specifics of why the topic ban was put in place.

5. Calling olive, an editor who has a keen interest in meditation, and who perhaps works for a meditation related institute (I was unable to confirm or refute this from what I can see on-wiki, see the COIN archives) and who made many edits to the page and about the page, uninvolved is a bit of a stretch of the imagination. I don't hold this particular editors opinion (one of many opinions) there in high regard, and I'm not sure why you do.

6. This is entirely subjective and unsubstantiated. It is also irrelevant, but shows that you haven't moved on.

7. Where was a COI mentioned?

In summary, no substantive reason to do anything. Rather a lot of erroneous points and arguments have been thrown about. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

@Olive, I am merely noting that you are involved, not uninvolved as initially claimed in the appeal. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

It is unclear if Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy_ban_appeal#Burden_of_proof_and_personal_attacks is meant to apply to WP:AC/DS (which makes no mention of it, and where the appeal process is markedly different from other appeals). IRWolfie- (talk) 22:29, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Olive, Momento highlighted it as possibly relevant. It does not just apply to TM, but is meant to reflect a general principle of wikipedia. That is why it is in a section called principles. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:30, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

• Editing a talk page supporting tendentious editing is as disruptive as making the edits, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:41, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

@Richwales: Restoring a comment which was a violation of an editors topic ban seems an extremely unusual step. Doesn't that essentially reward violating the topic ban? IRWolfie- (talk) 00:09, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Keithbob

I saw the note from Rumiton on Littleolive oil's talk page and thought I'd wander over. I've never edited the PR page but I have 19 edits to the talk page as a consequence of two RfC's on that page back in 2010 and 2011. I've been watching the goings on there, off and on, since then and I'm interested in this mass topic ban. There were no diffs given in Blade's initial post explaining Rumiton's topic ban here And when it was brought up at ArbRequestsEnforcement only one diff was provided and that was for an edit made by Momento not by Rumiton Each editor is an individual person and deserves to be treated as such. I look forward to the presentation of evidence in the specific case of Rumiton.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:47, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Having been asked now three times, in various venues, for examples of Rumiton's edits that would justify a topic ban, not a single diff has been provided. The rationale for the ban was what Rumiton might do: "Rumiton's total support of them indicates to me that he would pick up right where Momento left off" is not a justification for including him in a mass topic ban. I find this unacceptable and feel strongly the ban should be lifted.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Jayen466

Appeal should be granted per Sandstein below. (I used to edit the topic area, but it's been more than a year that I've set foot there.) Andreas JN466 03:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Rumiton

POV pushing on a talkpage is also grounds for action being taken against you. It's disruptive IRWolfie- (talk) 19:12, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Rumiton

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I'm awaiting a statement from TBoTNL but the area was covered by an ArbCom mandated probation at that time and it is within administrator discretion to impose sanctions. The bans were explained by TBoTNL on the article talk page - further clarification could have been sought directly from the imposing sysop. Furthermore Rumiton was also indefinitely banned in April 2012 from this topic area after an AE thread, and was previously banned from it in 2008. I haven't been able to find where the April 2012 ban was lifted - it would be useful if a link to this could be posted--Cailil 11:41, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
• I've looked at Rumiton's edits to Prem Rawat over the two months prior to his topic ban, and I'm sorry, but nothing in his edits to this article during this period strike me as substantial enough to support a conclusion that Rumiton was engaging in disruptive or "battleground" behaviour at that time. With all possible respect to others who may have a different view, I'm not a fan of collective punishment, and I'm not inclined to support a major sanction (such as a long-term block or topic ban) on an individual editor based on a gestalt reading of an overall situation. If TBotNL, or others supporting his actions, are aware of specific actions by Rumiton in the few weeks or days prior to mid-November of last year which would justify an indefinite / permanent topic ban, please show us the diffs; otherwise, I would favour a lifting of Rumiton's topic ban now. And even assuming for the sake of argument that the topic ban was originally justified, over four months have passed since then, and I believe it's worth seeing what happens now if he is allowed back in. If Rumiton (and/or any other editors involved in this same incident) do get unbanned, his/their actions are surely going to be subject to increased scrutiny; and if Rumiton does start or resume engaging in disruptive editing, I may well be inclined to block him myself next time. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 01:30, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• @TBotNL, I read the material you cited at Talk:Prem Rawat#Archive 50. Assuming for the moment that Momento was in fact being tendentious here, this talk page discussion still doesn't establish to my mind that Rumiton was being (or was of a mind to be) similarly tendentious. I'm much more interested in what Rumiton actually did to the article — which, as I said, does not seem to me to rise anywhere near the level of "battleground behaviour". As for Steven Zhang and his agreeing with you, I would really prefer to hear from Steven Zhang directly and understand what he thinks of all this from his own fingers on his keyboard. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 04:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I have posted a request on Steven Zhang's talk page, asking him to come here to this AE request and give us his views directly. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 04:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• @Rumiton, I have some questions to ask you regarding the way you view the condition of the Prem Rawat article and how you would conduct yourself in the event your topic ban were to be lifted.

1. Briefly, what do you think are the best aspects of the Prem Rawat article as it currently stands?
2. Briefly, and without going into excessive detail or becoming confrontational, what do you think are the worst aspects of the article as it currently stands?
3. How do you feel the core Misplaced Pages content policies (WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:BLP) should guide the content of the Prem Rawat article and related articles? In particular, to what extent do you believe the BLP policy may limit our ability to write a fair, balanced, and neutral article here?
4. How should the Misplaced Pages community handle situations where various people have widely differing views on what the Prem Rawat article should contain and how it should be written? Do you believe it is possible for editors working on this article to reach a balanced consensus that is neither a whitewash nor an attack piece? To what extent (if any) do you believe the logjams can be resolved only by banning certain people (possibly you, possibly others, but don't name names here) from working on the article at all?
5. To what extent (if any) do you feel you are willing to accept content in the Prem Rawat article with which you are not personally comfortable?
6. Do you believe you are able (and willing) to write in a way that fairly, accurately, and neutrally presents views regarding Prem Rawat with which you personally disagree?

I believe it is important for us, as we consider your ban appeal, to hear and understand your views regarding these questions. Basic, general principles are what I'm hoping to see here. As you write your answers, please don't go into so much lengthy detail that someone might be tempted to impose sanctions against you for violating your current topic ban (which, of course, still remains in effect until and unless it gets lifted). However, as long as you are making a good-faith effort to explain your current views and to give us a good idea of what we should expect to see from you if you do get unbanned, I will actively support your right (per WP:BAN#Exceptions to limited bans) to express yourself on this subject and in this forum, and I trust that others will also give you the benefit of the doubt on this point as long as you are reasonably trying to express yourself in a helpful way.

Since the section of the page in which I am writing this is reserved for comments by uninvolved admins, please put your comments in your section above, along with other editors' statements. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 18:30, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• @IRWolfie-: You ask a reasonable question (regarding my reinstatement of Momento's comments), but I believe I did the right thing here. First, I waited to do this until after Sandstein (the admin who had blocked Momento and deleted his comments) indicated he would not object. Second, I consider Momento's comments to be relevant to our discussion — to help us put Rumiton's topic ban in its proper context, and to see an important part of the material which apparently prompted TBotNL to impose the topic ban. As for the propriety of restoring edits made in defiance of a ban (assuming that is in fact what Momento did — Sandstein and I will apparently have to continue to "agree to disagree" on this question), the banning policy (WP:BAN) does not demand that such edits should be reverted. And I really don't see what I did as "rewarding" Momento for his misconduct, because the block Sandstein imposed on him is still in effect. Since Momento's comments are back in play, I trust people will read them, check out the link he provided to his synopsis of the edits leading up to the topic ban, and decide for themselves what bearing (if any) this material may have on their view of Rumiton's topic ban. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 03:33, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

• Momento's statement above violates their own topic ban. I'm removing the statement and blocking Momento, in enforcement of the ban, for a week.  Sandstein  07:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I question whether this action really is appropriate under the circumstances. Momento is at least somewhat involved here, since he was topic-banned along with Rumiton. And the information Momento posted (and which has now been deleted) included a link to material that is relevant to our discussion. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 07:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll unblock Momento if they want to appeal their own ban rather than discuss the ban of others (see User talk:Sandstein#Blocking Momento?).  Sandstein  07:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Even if Momento remains blocked, though, I believe the material he posted here prior to the block (including a link to one of his subpages in which the editing activity leading up to the ban are described) is relevant to our discussion, that the deletion of this material was/is not required by Momento's topic ban, and that Momento's comment should be restored to our discussion. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 17:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

If a non-banned editor considers the material useful for the purpose of this discussion, they are welcome to restore it.  Sandstein  20:08, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I've done this. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 21:14, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• On the merits, based on the explanation given by The Blade of the Northern Lights I consider that the ban of Rumiton was likely made in error. I do not think that discussion page statements in support of tendentious editing merit the same sanction (let alone an indefinite topic ban) as that received by the editor, Momento, who actually made the allegedly tendentious edits. In particular, I'm not aware, in the statements made by The Blade of the Northern Lights in support of the sanction, of seeing a diff of even one allegedly problematic edit by Rumiton.

  Nonetheless, for procedural reasons, I'm not yet convinced that I should support removing the ban. As Cailil points out, Rumiton had already been topic-banned in April 2012, also by The Blade of the Northern Lights. That ban is still in force, and no argument has been made here that it was made in error. As such, unless the April ban is also appealed and overturned, appealing and overturning the November ban (at issue here) appears pointless.  Sandstein  08:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• Rumiton points out, above, that The Blade of the Northern Lights did lift the April ban in September. This was not logged on the case page; I've now done so. As such, I tend to be of the view that the appeal should be granted and the ban lifted, unless The Blade of the Northern Lights can more clearly explain, on the basis of specific edits made by Rumiton at the time, why the ban of Rumiton needed to be reinstated in November.  Sandstein  10:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Sandstein's block of Momento. Regarding Rumiton, frankly I can see where Steven and TBotNL are coming from. The re-imposition of the April 2012 ban in November for a return to previous bad behaviour (supporting tendentious edits by Momento) makes perfect sense to me - its a failure to abide by unban conditions (which were loosely laid-out in that discussion about the ban being lifted). It should also be noted that these actions were undertaken while a second RFAR was in progress, i.e misbehaviour during RFAR is a very bad idea. That said I think this ban and the lifting of the April ban were sloppy. AE and AC/DS bans need to be clear, unbanning conditions need to be clear also. I don't however see this as grounds for over-turning. My reasoning on that is based on the actual appeal above which fails to take account of any wrong doing in the past regarding this topic nor does it outline how this user will avoid a return to actions that twice led to indefinite topic bans. That said given that 6 months has elapsed and given that no specific edits by Rumiton have been or were the cause of this ban I would be open to a conditional (and clearly explained/defined) unban, on the basis that if these conditions are broken the ban will be re-imposed--Cailil 16:54, 6 April 2013 (UTC)