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	Margaret Thatcher is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	Margaret Thatcher has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 18, 2005.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 9, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted July 24, 2006 Featured article review Kept July 11, 2007 Featured article review Demoted November 29, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed December 23, 2008 Good article nominee Listed January 12, 2009 Peer review Reviewed January 9, 2011 Good article reassessment Delisted January 21, 2011 Good article nominee Listed February 22, 2012 Good article reassessment Delisted March 18, 2012 Good article reassessment Listed Current status: Former featured article, current good article

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Margaret Thatcher article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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GA review

Why come Margaret Thatcher in 1987 anyway? Is it or not?

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Margaret Thatcher/GA4. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Basically, this article fails Criteria 4 (neutrality), and, through this, Criteria 3 (breadth). Thatcher was a very controversial politician, at the time and after, but the article actively minimizes this controversy. Some examples include the downplaying of the issues related to her being forced out of government - the Community Charge gets little more than a paragraph, and the issues surrounding it aren't discussed - and the Legacy section only giving space to her supporters, and leaving out almost all views of her detractors.

It's really more of an apologia than a neutral article. 86.** IP (talk) 16:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

To give some idea of how badly this has been gutted, here's how the section on the Poll tax continued before this article was last delisted for neutrality...

Thatcher's system of local taxation was among the most unpopular policies of her premiership with working class and poorer citizens unable to pay the new tax and some being sent to Prison for non payment. The central Government capped rates resulting in charges of partisanship and the alienation of small-government Conservatives. The Prime Minister's popularity declined in 1989 as she continued to refuse to compromise on the tax. Unrest mounted and ordinary British people young and old took to the streets to demonstrate, the demonstrators were met with horse mounted Police in riot gear and demonstration turned to riots at Trafalgar Square, London, on 31 March 1990; more than 100,000 protesters attended and more than 400 people were arrested.

A BBC Radio poll in September 1989 indicated that almost three-quarters of the public were also against water privatisation. Despite public opposition to the poll tax and the privatisation of water, electricity, and British Rail, Thatcher remained confident that, as with her other major reforms, the initial public opposition would turn into support after implementation. A MORI poll for the Sunday Times in June 1988 found that more than 60% of voters agreed that in the long term the Thatcher government's policies would improve the state of the economy, while less than 30% disagreed; although income inequality had increased: 74% of Britons said they were satisfied with their present standard of living, while only 18% were dissatisfied.

The article has apparently been gutted for ideological reasons; a revert to an appropriate version may save it. 86.** IP (talk) 16:54, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Very little of the first paragraph is supported by the references. Is the second worth checking or is it equally rubbish? Mr Stephen (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I haven't refchecked; however, the point still stands: This article has less negative material than it did when it was delisted from GA for being biased in favour of Thatcher. If references need improving, that's a second issue, but both NPOV and good references are needed for GA. 86.** IP (talk) 18:23, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Are we looking at the same article? I think all of the article is verifiable against references. Can you give specific examples of material that you do not think is supported by references? --John (talk) 21:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

My comment above was narrowly regarding the quoted paragraph (beginning 'Thatcher's system of local taxation') from the old version, not anything in the article as it stands. (Though that has issues.) Mr Stephen (talk) 23:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• Procedural comment. I note that this has been raised as an individual reassessment, so User:86.** IP has offered to make the decision to delist (or not) here, if s/he believes, after discussion and possible fixes, that the article does not meet the criteria. If s/he would rather another editor take this responsibility, or if the outcome seems likely to be disputed, it may be preferable to convert this into a community reassessment. Geometry guy 00:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. While it is always possible to improve an article, I would like to raise a note of caution here. This is a biographical encyclopedia article about Margeret Thatcher, the living person. It is not an article about her government, nor privatization, nor Thatcherism, nor the legacy of that government. Earlier versions of this article suffered badly from recentism and lack of focus: see the previous community GAR. The article was not "gutted" for ideological reasons, but rewritten for encyclopedic ones: it was riddled with poor sourcing and partisan material on all sides. Yes, there is a place for critical views in this article, and they should be presented with due weight according to reliable secondary sources. There are almost certainly some remaining imbalances in the article, as no article is perfect. If so, concrete examples should be provided, backed up by reliable secondary sources, and then we can improve the article. Geometry guy 00:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I really find it hard to accept the argument that one of the most divisive Prime Ministers of the 20th century doesn't need to have any discussion about the opposition to her. A politician's career is inherently bound up in his or her policies. 86.** IP (talk) 00:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course she does: now what discussions would you like to add, and what reliable secondary sources should these discussions be based upon? Geometry guy 00:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with what appears to me to be User:86.**'s narrowly political focus, as this is a BLP. I also think that Thatcher is far too controversial a figure for this disagreement to be dealt with by an individual GAR. I've done very many individual GARs in my time, but this is definitely one I wouldn't have touched; it needs more than just one editor's opinion. And if User:86.**'s decision is to delist it, then there will inevitably be a community GAR anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 01:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that the political issue is the neutrality problem. This article is well-written overall, but completely whitewashing her political career cannot be justified under NPOV policy. 86.** IP (talk) 04:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This article is about her, not her political career. NPOV has nothing to do with it. Malleus Fatuorum 04:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It absolutely does if Premiership of Margaret Thatcher is used as a POV fork to hide all the negative information. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 10:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• Please remind yourself of the definitions of POV fork and Summary style before casting aspersions. Thanks, Geometry guy 10:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The GA review was a joke in my opinion, and caused me to ignore this page for quite a while in case I was viewed as disruptive when consensus said it was neutral. Take for example this section of the talk page on the exact version GA was passed on. There is the relevant section of the article on the exact version GA was passed on. Well look at that, despite the problems with that particular sentence being spelled out on the talk page at the time of the review the GA was passed???? It has since been fixed admittedly, but are we really supposed to take a GA review seriously when things like that don't even get checked? Kind of busy for the next couple of days, but after that you can expect another in-depth critique of this embarrassment of an article. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 10:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• Those talk page comments (from 2010!) contributed to the delisting of the article, after which it was substantially revised, and re-reviewed, so why should anyone expect the discussion to be still relevant? Do you expect a review to trawl back through the talk page history of the article? Even as the editor posting that comment, you only found an issue that is no longer relevant! Do try to keep up to date, even if you are "kind of busy". I look forward to your in-depth critique, preferably based on reliable sources, and without hyperbole. Thanks, Geometry guy 10:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and say this isn't going to get fixed in any reasonable time, so delisted for neutrality issues. There's simply no way an article which minimises all discussion of a controversial political leader's controversial acts can be considered neutral or complete, particularly when it does include quite a bit of praise from her supporters. 86.** IP (talk) 00:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It isn't going to get "fixed" in the rather peculiar sense that you seem to mean that word at all, ever. But it is of course within your prerogative to delist this article, and as soon as you do I'll be listing it for a community reassessment. Malleus Fatuorum 00:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

References

1. ^ Cite error: The named reference polltax was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Cite error: The named reference msn was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. "Violence flares in poll tax demonstration". BBC. 31 March 1990. Retrieved 30 October 2008.
4. "News of water sale's death greatly exaggerated", The Times (2 October 1989).
5. "All Thatcherites now", The Times (15 June 1988).

Foreign policy not covered in main article

Under foreign relations, there definitely should be some reference to her dealings with Suharto, perhaps someone with better knowledge could attempt this?

Also, maybe a mention of the Al-Yamamah deal? Hillbillyholiday81 (talk) 00:47, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Does each sentence need a citation?

My understanding is that every sentence with some fact in it needs a citation. Is this true? Does the sentence "After seeing the Queen, calling other world leaders, and making one final Commons speech, she left Downing Street in tears." need a footnote? It seems to me to be controversial enough to require a citation attached to that sentence and so I put a CN tag on that sentence. Subsequently I received a message on my User Page -- User talk:Bruce Hall#Please be more careful -- that I was in error to put a CN tag on it. Was I? --Bruce Hall (talk) 04:02, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

You are right but the cite may not always be at the end of the sentence but could be further on at the end of the paragraph. Keith D (talk) 19:29, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

see Misplaced Pages:Citation overkill Slowking4⇔ †@1₭ 12:02, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Full title of Baroness Thatcher

Just a genaral point on the introductory section. Her title, after accepting a peerage, is Baroness Thatcher of Kesteven in the County of Lincolnshire (as noted elsewhere in the article) - so shouldn't this be stated in the introduction? Zebranation (talk) 14:40, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Let's not have a "tributes" section.

I whole-heartedly agree with whoever wrote: <!-- Please do not add tributes from around the world. It is unnecessary and clutters the article. -->

These sections with condolences and little flags repel me. We should not have one. --John (talk) 12:54, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree 100%. Malleus Fatuorum 13:31, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree 100%, I agree 0%. Those first reactions are important. --Borvo (talk) 13:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

They're non-encyclopaedic and you'll note not used on other pages. Misplaced Pages is not a memorial, it's an encyclopaedia. Canterbury Tail talk 13:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. For example, Ronald Reagan, her contemporary, or Pinochet her hero Basket _Feudalist 14:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

They may be important in a newspaper story, or a breaking news TV report, but Misplaced Pages is neither. There will be no tributes section. Malleus Fatuorum 14:38, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Not appropriate for an encyclopedia article. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:09, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree, but with a small caveat. Obviously the soundbites from talking heads aren't notable and I honestly don't know why people add that kind of fluff to articles. But there may be one or two quotes that emerge over the next few days that might be useful in illustrating how she was viewed during her time in office and at the time of her death. Though having said that, any particularly significant quotes will likely appear in the slew of books that I'm sure publishers are ordering as I type. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Surely the reaction of other world leaders - especially those diametrically opposed to her politics (such as US President Obama and UK Labour party leader Milliband) - are relevant to how she was perceived? BealBocht (talk) 15:10, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Such immediate reactions are of little, if any, lasting value. So the answer is no, they're not. But you've clearly commented here without taking the trouble to actually read the article, as Milliband's reaction is already covered. Malleus Fatuorum 15:18, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I think you both mean Miliband (and he's not a world leader). I agree with Malleus and any quotations of lasting relevance will likely come from proper eulogies rather than kneejerk soundbites Jebus989 16:01, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

• Reactions aren't worthwhile mentioning. Everyone will express their sympathy, some will reminisce about her and the good old empire, etc. Responses that might lead to something, that's different, but it's hard to see how a reaction to this person's death will change anything in the real world. Drmies (talk) 17:35, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

It's very simple, really: The statements on the occasion of her demise, will fit marvelously into the "quotes about her" part of the wikiquote site's article concerning her. Hence, the only parts I would include in the article, would be a small part about her funeral (which is yet to come as I write this), and, if it should happen, any special happening surrounding her demise (such as a major memorial- or good-riddance- party...). (Personally, I would attend the memorial version, but unless and until any of those parties occur, I see reason only to include something on her (currently future) funeral...) 195.204.138.41 (talk) 18:22, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

reads like conservative party propaganda

this article is biased and reads like it was written by a tory apparatchik. especially the criticism section where it reads as if all the problems she created with her policies were the fault of the previous government/s (same tory propaganda is in full swing again today) from the way this article presents the facts thatcher was barely controversial in any way and only did beneficial things to the UK. which is 100% opposite to the prevailing wisdom of sociologist who study britain. the article is lacking in facts and has a large dose of misinformation in it. 188.220.151.59 (talk) 13:43, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

<humor>The tories should participate as toros in a corrida.</humor> Advice: edit Thatcher and bring it into a neutral form. --Borvo (talk) 13:45, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Your opinion is biased, and looks like it was written by a member of the far left who hasn't even read the article. Malleus Fatuorum 14:35, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Having actually read the article, specifically the section, "Political Legacy," I have to agree somewhat with the sentiment shared by the OP. I believe this article is NOT neutral and should be flagged as such. It glosses over the decline of union membership and unions that was caused by Thatcher's policies, and the entire article fails to mention Section 28, the anti-gay policy that had the effect of turning homosexuality into a taboo topic in schools and other government facilities. I'm certain that there are more deficiencies I have not yet found, but my non-union job only allows me a 30-minute break for lunch and I have yet to eat the one piece of fruit that I can afford working on minimum wage. Jbaumeister (talk) 16:46, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Then you believe incorrectly. That it does not reflect your own personal views is neither here nor there. Malleus Fatuorum 16:48, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Thatcher's Views of Human Sexuality

Lady Thatcher has a rather remarkable history when it comes to human sexuality and I believe this should be noted. Not only did she publicly acknowledge that homosexuality ought to be decriminalized, she was one of the earliest Conservatives to do so. Yet her views are unclear and require further research as regards to Section 28, which could either have been a concept she embraced or a compromise she grudgingly accepted. Not being a particularly ardent student of her biography, I would be completely unable to tell how she viewed this topic. Given its relevance to the times in which she lived and its importance in illustrating the depth and complexity of her character, I feel that the article is lacking by the omission of this topic.

Furthermore, in a time when President Reagan was studiously ignoring or avoiding the topic of the HIV/AIDS crisis, Lady Thatcher supported definitive and humane steps to stem the spread of the disease. This also speaks to who she was as a person and as a politician, because these were not easy positions to take within the cultural and political contexts of the 1980s. Jbaumeister (talk) 16:58, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Now, boys and girls, if you really want tributes...

...these are from the Guardian online. Yes, very disappointing for the faithful who will be unable to delete my additions in that mildly condescending and naturally arrogant dismissal of a newspaper that ironically always boasted about having helped put her where she was :p as the Guardian is perceived to conform to WP:RS... here ya go. PS: Think Galloway might win the prize for tactful tweet of the hour Of course, they're not all 'world-leaders' (ironically, very few today actually knew or worked with her), but they are well-known and easilly verifiable...

Peter Tatchell-'Margaret Thatcher was an extraordinary woman but she was extraordinary for mostly the wrong reasons.'

Ken Loach- 'Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and destructive Prime Minister of modern times. Mass Unemployment, factory closures, communities destroyed – this is her legacy. She was a fighter and her enemy was the British working class'
Gerry Adams -'Margaret Thatcher did great hurt to the Irish and British people during her time as British prime minister. Working class communities were devastated in Britain because of her policies.'
George Galloway- 'Tramp the dirt down' & 'Thatcher described Nelson Mandela as a "terrorist". I was there. I saw her lips move. May she burn in the hellfires.'

Ken Livingstone- 'She created today's housing crisis. She created the banking crisis. And she created the benefits crisis. It was her government that started putting people on incapacity benefit rather than register them as unemployed because the Britain she inherited was broadly full employment. She decided when she wrote off our manufacturing industry that she could live with two or three million unemployed, and the benefits bill, the legacy of that, we are struggling with today. In actual fact, every real problem we face today is the legacy of the fact that she was fundamentally wrong'

And in case anyone thinks that's too one-sided....? A very supportive one from Robert Mugabe, of course- !!!
Basket _Feudalist 17:34, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)

Those are referenced quotes that conform to verifiability standards, whether you appprove or not. Your contribution seems to rely on talking about your wife. Go troll elsewhere, anon. Basket _Feudalist 17:54, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Don't dispute the verifiability. (Personal attack removed) Stop it.

celebrations of her death in the UK: Widely reported. Highly unusual. Why aren't they even mentioned?

As can be seen, https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&q=thatcher+celebration&oq=thatcher+celebration&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i53.13511.19613.0.19779.20.4.0.16.16.0.119.351.3j1.4.0...0.0...1ac.1.D8AtSNMIcpg#hl=en&safe=off&gl=uk&tbm=nws&sclient=psy-ab&q=thatcher+celebration+dead&oq=thatcher+celebration+dead&gs_l=serp.3...23000.24453.1.25259.5.5.0.0.0.0.121.531.2j3.5.0...0.0...1c.1.8.psy-ab.BqVOLf2AkMY&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44770516,d.d2k&fp=e7cea0d1593531a2&biw=1440&bih=737 a lot of newspapers and other reliable news sources are covering the outpourings of jubilation at Thatcher's death. Few major British news sources are not covering this.

I cannot see how it isn't a straight violation of POV not to mention them. Adam Cuerden 18:28, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

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