Talk:Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

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Role (or lack thereof) in genocides

Given that Atatürk was a prominent leader during World War I and afterwards, when three parallel mass killings (Greek, Armenian, and Assyrian) were concurrently taking place, it should really be mentioned in this article whether Atatürk was involved in these at all (or what his response was, at the least.) I realize that this would presumably be a controversial subject for Turkish editors, but even so, Turkey at least acknowledges that the killings took place (which they excuse with the claim of military necessity), and it is a legitimate question that should be answered nevertheless. 02:46, 14 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.243.198 (talk)

You confuse the self-defense with genocide. Atatürk had never hold Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians in camps and kill them defenceless. Their armies attack the Turks and they fought back. If you have any proof about this I would congratulate you. Atatürk wasn't a dictator like Mussolini; Hittler or Saddam why? Because people still can cry in him memorial day with love and thank him to save them in Turkey.--Kerenia (talk) 00:14, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

This is *bs*. This guy ordered the execution of Hellenic and Armenian civilians. Over half a million people died because of him. Sure we was a small pre-Hitler after all... 188.77.175.138 (talk) 02:13, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Can I draw your attention to what Misplaced Pages says about talk pages: "This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." If you have a proposal for improving the article, then give it (with appropriate evidence). Otherwise, choose a different place to argue.Solri (talk) 06:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

half a million people died because of him?? what did greeks do in izmir? after they went to greece, izmir was destroyed by greek army. he defended his land. he killed many people such as greek and armenians haha that's very funny. he had done 'turkish independince war' so he discarded turkish land from you.

As I said above, this page is for discussing and improving the article. If anyone has historical evidence warranting inclusion of mass killings in the article, cite it here; there is no point is an "Oh yes he did" "Oh no he didn't" argument. Solri (talk) 10:18, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Sunni Islam ?

User:Chauahuasachca claimed "stop nonsense". Do you prove it with identifying reliable sources ? I think religion in infobox is not necessary for this person. Takabeg (talk) 11:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

You are a disruptive user and looking at your contributions show that. No other reliable sources are needed. --E4024 (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why you feel so. But please cool off and read Misplaced Pages:No personal attack again (This is the last warning for you). Takabeg (talk) 12:13, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, he was Sunni Muslim.--Chauahuasachca (talk) 12:54, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Sources ? Takabeg (talk) 12:55, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

@User:E4024 Common knowledge. No need for a tag. is invalid argument. Please read Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources. Takabeg (talk) 13:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you try contributing positively to WP? If you believe your English is not sufficient, add pics to articles, for example. Help. --E4024 (talk) 13:14, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I think my English is not sufficient, because I'm not a native. But I believe that we have to stop POV-pushing (especially nationalists' POVs) edits. I couldn't find any sources to prove Atatürk's religion was Sunni Islam. But I easily found follows:

I think these are also nothing but claims. But at present Sunni Islam is nothing but one of the claims without sources. Takabeg (talk) 13:30, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

No sources for Sunni Islam were provided. Stop POV-pushing. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 15:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm puzzled by the religion tag. Is it meant to indicate a person's official religious affiliation or their personal views? In the former case it is definitely Islam; in the latter, nobody knows for sure. I've read speculations that he was a deist; I've also read speculations that he was a member of the Melami Sufi order. His adopted daughter, Sabiha Gökçen, said "Contrary to what everyone thought, he was a very religious person" (Reminiscences of Atatürk, trans. Ömer Renkliyıldırım. İstanbul: Metro, 1985. p. 29.) Solri (talk) 15:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the secular Turkish Republic said: "I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea..." The Antipodean Philosopher: Interviews on Philosophy in Australia and New Zealand, Graham Oppy, Lexington Books, 2011, ISBN 0739167936, p. 146. Jingiby (talk) 15:42, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Turkey was saved, and for the rest of his life Kemal ruled Turkey unopposed. From his position of absolute authority Ataturk set about dragging Turkey into the twentieth century. An atheist, he secularized the law, stripped Islam of its position as state religion and forbade religious instructions in schools. History of World War II, Marshall Cavendish Corporation, Marshall Cavendish, 2004, ISBN 0761474838, p. 128. Jingiby (talk) 15:47, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

The Assotiated Press reported on January 23, 1989 that editor-in chief Dogu Perincek had been convicted on December 20, 1988, of insulting Kemal Ataturk in an article entitled, "Ataturk and God," that appeared in the November 22-28, 1987 issue. The article consisted of handwritten notes and letters of Ataturk that showed his atheist views. Perincek was sentenced to one and a half year in prison. Paying the Price: Freedom of Expression in Turkey, A Helsinki Watch Report, Lois Whitman, Thomas Froncek, Helsinki Watch, Human Rights Watch, 1989, ISBN 0929692152, p. 34. Jingiby (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

And here's another quotation: "God is a great strength. We must all believe in Him" (again, the source is Sabiha Gökçen). And another: "Oh people, God is one and his glory is great. Our master and prophet was chosen by the Lord God as his servant and messenger. The basic principle, which is known to all of us, is the clearly understandable verses of the Holy Quran. Our religion, which enlightens people's souls, is the last religion. It is the most perfect religion, because our religion is completely compatible and in harmony with intelligence, logic and reality." That's my off the cuff translation (so don't quote it!) of a sermon he gave in the Pasha mosque in Balıkesir in 1923 . Of course you can say that deep down he was an atheist or a deist or a member of the Illumiati or whatever you want, but that's strictly POV. The evidence is overwhelming that he presented himself as a Muslim and was regarded as such. Solri (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Any neutral reliable source was provided in support of Sunny Islam view. The citations above are from extremely biased Turkish sources, the second one even religious. Jingiby (talk) 18:14, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

By the way Radio Islam, has broadcast an emission: Kemal Ataturk - The Enemy of Islam. Jingiby (talk) 18:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

This radio? Very reliable source really... Do you have friends in there? --E4024 (talk) 18:29, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I have not a friends there, but you haven't provided any sources here. Jingiby (talk) 18:47, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Atatürk, The Rebirth of a Nation, Lord Kinross, 1965, p. 437: For Kemal, Islam and civilization were a contradiction in terms. "If only," he once said of the Turks, with a flash of cynical insight, "we could make them Christians!" His was not to be the reformed Islamic state for which the Faithful were waiting: it was to be a strictly lay state, with a centralized Government as strong as the Sultan's, backed by the army and run by his own intellectual bureaucracy. Jingiby (talk) 18:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Atatürk, The Rebirth of a Nation, Lord Kinross, 1965 , p. 365: Some confusion as to his identity persisted, however, for some years to come. Inspecting some soldiers in Anatolia, Kemal once asked, "Who is God and where does He live?" The soldier, anxious to please, replied, "God is Mustafa Kemal Pasha. He lives in Angora." "And where is Angora?" Kemal asked. "Angora is in Istanbul," was the reply. Farther down the line he asked another soldier, "Who is Mustafa Kemal?" The reply was, "Our Sultan." Jingiby (talk) 18:56, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Grey Wolf, Mustafa Kemal: An Intimate Study of a Dictator, H.C. Armstrong, 1934, p. 241: "For five hundred years these rules and theories of an Arab sheik," he said, "and the interpretations of generations of lazy, good-for-nothing priests have decided the civil and the criminal law of Turkey." Jingiby (talk) 18:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I have not provided sources because the best one, the original of his Nüfus Cüzdani (ID) is in the museum within Anıt Kabir where you can see that it says "Religion: Islam". (I visit there at every opportunity and never had such a stupid question like this in my mind.) There are many photos of that ID in the internet, I add one for you here and will not speak to you again. --E4024 (talk) 19:07, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Emil Lengyel, (Turkey) 1941, pp. 140-141: During the early days of Kemal's career, many of his followers were under the impression that he was a champion of Islam and that they were fighting the Christians. "Ghazi, Destroyer of Christians" was the name they gave him. Had they been aware of his real intentions, they would have called him "Ghazi, Destroyer of Islam." Jingiby (talk) 19:15, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Kemal was virulently antireligious and he saw Islam as the primary source as his country's backwardness. He is reported to said once: "He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap." The Modern Middle East: A Political History Since the First World War, Mehran Kamrava, University of California Press, 2011, ISBN 0520267745, p. 56. Jingiby (talk) 06:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Yurttaslik Bilgileri, Yenigun Haber Ajansi (1997 edition) p. 18.: " It is claimed that religious unity is also a factor in the formation of nations. Whereas, we see the contrary in the Turkish nation. Turks were a great nation even before they adopted Islam. This religion did not help the Arabs, Iranians, Egyptians and others to unite with Turks to form a nation. Conversely, it weakened the Turks’ national relations; it numbed Turkish national feelings and enthusiasm. This was natural, because Mohammedanism was based on Arab nationalism above all nationalities." Jingiby (talk) 06:18, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Kemal Atatürk, who saw Islam as a hindrance to the modernization of Turkey. Blaming the religion for his nation's defeat in World War I, he derided Islam as “the absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin.” Lone Wolf Terror and the Rise of Leaderless Resistance, George Michael, Vanderbilt University Press, 2012, ISBN 0826518559, p. 119.

However, I see any real discussion, only blind reverts and deletion of sources made on the article by User:Chauahuasachca and partially here, on discussion, but made by User:E4024. Please, stop this and provide Academic sources or held a correct discussion. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 06:39, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

According to Cambridge University Press publication, he was agnostic or at least non doctrinaire deist. The Cambridge History of Turkey, Reşat Kasaba, Cambridge University Press, 2008, ISBN 0521620961, p. 163. I suggest to remove from the article's infobox the personal category religion, because most sources describe Ataturk as atheist or agnostic. Are there other suggestions, please. Jingiby (talk)

No objections were registered. I am going to delete the personal category religion from the infobox. Jingiby (talk) 14:30, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Mustafa Kemal has never been a muslim, there is no sources, he did never go in a mosquee, he is a free-masson, that's all folk! We can say and admit he was a deist --Alsace38 (talk) 20:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Atatürk Square

There isn't any square dedicated to ataturk in rome or for that matter in italy; it should be edited — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.183.10.6 (talk) 04:54, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Genocide

Why is there no mention against the various atrocities committed against Greeks and Armenians under his rule ect. And the Dersim massacre. Surely his in relation to these atrocities should be clearly mentioned. Otherwise it just seems like a complete whitewash.88.104.220.55 (talk) 21:36, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Assassination Attempt

Hello,correct me if I'm wrong, but does this part about the assassination attempt: "Investigation shifted from an inquiry into the planners to an investigation ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but in truth used to undermine those disagreeing with Mustafa Kemal's cultural revolution." imply that the investigation was used as an excuse to oppress opposing views? If so, it doesn't seem to represent any source for this claim at all, so it seems to me that we have no proof of the results of the investigation being false. Should we not add a Citation Needed for this?--85.105.92.160 (talk) 18:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Atatürk is freemason or not?

we invite you Talk:List of Freemasons#Atatürk page to talk about documentation of Atatürk is a freemason or not. --

Or we continue here about this talk about allegation. Qwl (talk) 04:26, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes of course he is free-masso, but turkey's officials are afraid this suggestion! But everwhere you can go in turkish loges, their emblem is "mustafa kemal", every turkish loges got his foto. --Alsace38 (talk) 16:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

turkey's offical freemasso web site says "ataturk friens were also freem..." http://www.mason.org.tr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=43
according to liberal massons ataturk was freema.. http://www.mason-mahfili.org.tr/?page_id=102 --Alsace38 (talk) 16:22, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

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