Talk:Local government in the United States

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To-do list for Local government in the United States: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2010-07-23

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : Mention the consensus-decision making process and unanimity tradition common to (many) local governments

Terminology

The term "local government" is often not used when describing the governments of major cities. Such establishments are said to maintain municipal governments.

I removed this text because I find "local government" to be used quite frequently to describe big-city governments. -- Beland 17:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Extensive revision of article

I've taken the plunge and just about completely rewritten the article. I don't claim that it's now perfect, but it's hopefully a huge improvement. It's certainly a lot more cohesive in my view.

I've excised a lot of stuff, particularly the various examples of local government from different states. I don't think that it makes sense to detail all fifty-one jurisdictions, which is where this article seemed to be headed; just a few exemplars are needed in my view. There are (or should be) separate articles for each of the states, which is where most of the detail belongs.

PS: I think I was saving my changes at the same time as someone else made some alterations. Apologies to the other person, but after all that writing I was too tired out to carefully review things further (and it's very hot and stuffy where I am at the moment!).

Silverhelm 21:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC).

Your rewrite is a huge improvement over what was here before. Doctor Whom 18:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Grand Divisions of Tennessee

Do the Grand Divisions of Tennessee operate as local governments? If so, we should say so and describe their functions, with a source. If not, what is the point of even mentioning them in this article? Thanks. Doctor Whom (talk) 00:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

State section redux

The section on individual states needs to be pared down. First, it should not be a trivia section; most states' systems of local government do not stand out that much. Second, long, detailed discussions of particular states should be broken out into new articles, with references added. I have tagged the article accordingly. Doctor Whom (talk) 12:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

New England towns

Daniel Danny John was here Doctor Whom: what reliable source are you referring to?

Anyhow: see the article on New England towns for more information. "Towns" and "cities" in New England are both incorporated municipalities, operating as governments on the same level of structure (but according to different internal models). In Massachusetts, which is what I'm most familiar with, several municipalities with a city form of government refer to themselves officially as "towns"; the "city" form of goverment didn't even exist until the 1820s, so even Boston was legally a "town" until then—so the "the historical circumstances of their formation", whatever they are, are the same for cities as for towns. But in any case, this article is about local government, not Census Bureau classification, and from a governmental perspective, New England towns and cities are both municipal governmental units of the same type. (Alternatively, they could both be listed under "township governments", since cities as well as towns are "areas into which a county is divided".) AJD (talk) 20:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The reliable source to which I refer is the Census of Governments source cited in the article. You may not agree with everything that it says, and no one is saying that it's Divinely inspired and inerrant. Nonetheless, as far as verifiability is concerned, I still say that it outranks one editor's unsupported say-so. Also, I consider it relevant, since it is, after all, from the Census of Governments.

If you maintain that the article should treat New England towns differently from the Census of Governments classification, feel free to explain why, citing sources and avoiding original research. Also, keep in mind that there are states outside of New England that treat some or all of their townships as incorporated municipalities operating on the same level as cities, so you should explain (again, citing sources and avoiding original research) how your reasoning applies both to the New England states and to those other states. Thanks. Doctor Whom (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

If the Census of Governments is our source, then perhaps this article should not distinguish "municipal" from "township" governments at all. The Census of Governments distinguishes between them and classifies them separately, but explicitly not in a principled way. In Appendix A of the 2002 Census of Governments, where terminology is defined, "municipal governments" and "township governments" are defined in the exact same way: "Organized local governments authorized in state constitutions and statutes and established to provide general government for a defined area". The only explicit difference between them is in nomenclature: whether a local government is designated a "city" or a "township" (or any of several other terms) by its state—but I think such an arbitrary bifurcation by terminology shouldn't dictate how we classify local governments here. If the Census of Governments, our principal source, can't be bothered to come up with a meaningful difference between the two categories it uses, perhaps we shouldn't regard those two categories as separate at all.

The Census of Governments offers a handwaving explanation of its reason for using two categories: "Municipal and township governments are distinguished primarily by the historical circumstances surrounding their incorporation." At this point I'll shift back to talking about Massachusetts specifically because that's what I know best, and I don't know to what extent these facts apply to other states. In Massachusetts, every city was originally incorporated as a town, so there are no grounds for distinguishing between city and town governments in Massachusetts based on "historical circumstances surrounding their incorporation". The general laws of Massachusetts designate towns explicitly as "municipal governments", and it seems to me that if we're going to distinguish between "municipal" and "township" government we should regard Massachusetts state laws as a more reliable source than the Census of Governments. But I'm leaning more and more towards not having the two separate categories in this article at all, and maybe just an annotation saying "the U.S. Census Bureau divides these into 'municipal' and 'township' governments based on various terminological, demographic, and historical criteria'. AJD (talk) 18:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm a lot more sympathetic now that you're citing sources rather than just making assertions. In your annotation, perhaps you can add that while some states (like MA, with the sources that you cite) do not strictly observe the distinction between townships and other forms of general-purpose local government below the county level, others do. Doctor Whom (talk) 18:08, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Saying that Massachusetts "does not strictly observe the distinction between townships and other forms of general-purpose local government" is strangely POV. More accurate to say to say that some states (like MA) have only one type of general-purpose local government, whereas some states have two or more (say, townships and incorporated cities). Anyhow, I'm at a conference now; when I'm home and have time I'll return to this article to fix up that section. AJD (talk) 14:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It isn't POV, let alone "strangely POV." It's intended to ensure that the various sections of the article make sense within the context of the whole article and thus to overcome what has traditionally been one of the deficiencies of this article. Consider the example of Virginia, which departs from the Census Bureau's paradigm at least as much as Massachusetts does and more so than most states do. No one is suggesting that we rewrite the article to suit Virginia; instead, we have a thumbnail description relating Virginia's system of local government to the standard model, with a link to Political subdivisions of Virginia to give a fuller description of Virginia's system of local government on its own terms. Doctor Whom (talk) 16:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thing is, I think you're overstating the degree to which Massachusetts is atypical. Lots of states have only one type of subcounty incorporated entity: California, Georgia, Texas, and many other states all have only cities as sub-county entities, and no civil townships or other levels of incorporation. But you wouldn't say that those states "do not strictly observe the distinction between townships and" cities; you'd just that that they don't have townships. Massachusetts is like California, Georgia, and Texas in this respect rather than like, say, Michigan: there are no civil townships, and there's only one level of subcounty governmental entity. It's just that what in California, Georgia, and Texas are designated "cities" are in Massachusetts sometimes "cities" and sometimes "towns", depending on their internal legislative and executive structure. But it's not the case that Massachusetts "does not strictly observe the distinction between townships and" other this; there just aren't any townships. AJD (talk) 21:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Introduction

It states: "although the took things outvaries from state to state, typical examples include the city, town, borough, and village." I'm not sure what it's supposed to say. Maybe: "although the local government varies from state to state..."? Melofshanoah (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2010 (UTC)MelofshanoahMelofshanoah (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal

As county governments are already fully discussed in the Local government in the United States article, the County government in the United States article is redundant. Strongly suggest merging the county government article with Local government in the United States. 71.139.153.191 (talk) 01:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment Wouldn't County (United States) be a better merge target? I agree that the article isn't needed and should be merged somewhere. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 01:39, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

That might be even better. 71.139.153.191 (talk) 01:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Support merger to County (United States). IMO, the article topic is worthy of a separate article, but the new article County government in the United States is (1) redundant with existing articles in both its scope and its specific content and (2) essentially devoid of references (indeed, it could be characterized as original research). The county article appears to be a more appropriate redirection target than the Local government article, as county government is more of a focus of the county article. --Orlady (talk) 02:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Support merge to County (United States) per Orlady. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 02:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Oppose There is significant content specific to county government to warrant a separate article. County government is inherently significant as a level of government to warrant its own article. Furthermore, this article was created out of a need to deal with issues arising from the category of the same name. There is no way all the content that is worthy of coverage can fit into the local government article, and it is still a matter of debate as to whether or not county government is local government at all. Greg Bard (talk) 03:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Support merge to the county (US) article. Or perhaps we could merge some content to it and some content to the local government article? This is closely connected (too much so) to both of them; the title and some of the contents are more suitable for the county article, but tons of the contents are more suitable for the local government article. Nyttend (talk) 04:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Since County government in the United States consists of content already in one or both of the other articles plus unreferenced original research, there isn't all that much that's appropriate to be merged. Possibly the main issue here is where the title should redirect. --Orlady (talk) 14:27, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

That occurred to me as well. I'd support a redirect to County (United States). In fact, I'm going to start the BRD and redirect it now, and we can discuss it over there, maybe? — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and redirected it and started a discussion at Talk:County_government_in_the_United_States#Redirect_to_County_.28United_States.29. If there's anything worth merging we can get it from the history, I think. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

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