Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important informationShortcuts

Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change, or is no longer an administrator; or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Misplaced Pages and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Arbitration enforcement archives

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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by The Devil's Advocate

Declined since there is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors to lift TDA's one-way interaction ban with Mathsci. TDA retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom by making a request for clarification. EdJohnston (talk) 18:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Appealing user The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC) Sanction being appealed One-way interaction ban with User:Mathsci imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive125#Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate, logged at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions Administrator imposing the sanction Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator Statement by The Devil's Advocate Over the past six and a half months or so I have complied with this restriction despite my objections to the sanction in general and its one-way nature in particular. This has not been without challenge as several times I have been involved in discussions where Mathsci was involved, often after I became involved. Even when he has responded to something I have said I have avoided addressing, commenting on, or interacting with, Mathsci in any fashion. As it stands, not being able to discuss matters with him has hampered my ability to participate in certain processes. In particular, although Mathsci does not edit articles or talk pages explicitly concerning R&I, he continues to involve himself in its affairs through project and userspace. Occasionally, this means I am in a situation where a matter concerns my editing activity in that topic area, but my ability to address the matter is hampered by Mathsci's ability to comment and my inability to respond. I thus ask for the restriction to be lifted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC) The Doncram case is an example of one of my points above. Mathsci's first comment in the case was to dispute one of my proposed findings. He then spent much of the case disputing my arguments. As a result, my ability to defend my statements was hampered because responding to his comments would have been a violation of my interaction ban. Some of the evidence he presented actually supported my position, but I was not able to point that out given the restriction.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC) The only talk I had of arbitration with Akuri consisted of me encouraging him not to pursue it and saying that, if my appeal failed, I would probably pursue it myself. Basically, I was saying that if an AE appeal failed that I would likely pursue an appeal to ArbCom.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:25, 14 May 2013 (UTC) @Fozzie, MastCell's comments about "wiki-litigation" are misguided and shouldn't be given much weight. As it concerns R&I, I believe I have filed exactly three requests at noticeboards over the past year, not including this appeal, with each regarding separate issues. The "un-needed" part is purely subjective as said requests did touch on legitimate and substantive concerns that I and other editors had regarding a situation. Only one of those requests, the earliest one, directly concerned Mathsci. Generally, I take great care to only suggest taking action when I feel it is needed and prior to the interaction ban the worse thing I suggested for Mathsci is an admonishment. Despite what some say there is no imminent risk of me filing some massive request for action against Mathsci should the restriction be lifted. As long as he leaves me alone, or at least doesn't do anything extreme, I envision no reason why I would suggest any action against him. This has always been the case, including prior to the interaction ban.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:25, 16 May 2013 (UTC) @KC, please move your comment out of the uninvolved administrator section. You are far from uninvolved regarding me or the R&I topic area.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC) As far as Tim's request, there are numerous instances of varying complexity, but some are straight-forward. On one occasion I commented in an ANI discussion regarding another editor and in response to what one editor said to me Mathsci made this remark accusing me of editing from a "race realist" perspective, with that phrase having an easter egg link to the article on scientific racism. Another incident involved me removing a personal attack made by a proxy IP and Mathsci immediately restoring it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC) Not sure how the tone of two remarks to two people who are not Mathsci is relevant to my interaction ban with Mathsci. For the sake of convenience here is Mathsci's original statement.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 09:26, 17 May 2013 (UTC) Mathsci, WO is WO and Misplaced Pages is Misplaced Pages. Two separate sites. I would say that the notion I said anything seriously problematic about you there is not very good and you were the one who bumped that thread in the first place after ten days of inactivity. You also seem more than happy to talk to me there.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 08:10, 18 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Timotheus Canens I see no compelling reason to lift the restriction, and in fact have little doubt that the disruptive acrimonious interactions would recur if it were lifted. I do not regard the claim regarding the Doncram case, which is the only concrete example TDA cited, to be compelling; even assuming for the sake of argument that TDA could not have amplified their views on the nature of Orlady's interactions with Doncram without violating the interaction ban (a rather doubtful proposition), they could have easily submitted a rebuttal of Mathsci's comments to the Committee via email if they wanted to. As to the one-way nature of the interaction ban, I think it would be a spectacularly bad idea to make it two-way six months after the original restriction was imposed without actual, concrete evidence that the one-way ban is not working. I'm open to reconsidering if there's some hard evidence of Mathsci inappropriately taking advantage of the one-way nature of interaction ban. Finding such evidence if there's actual misconduct shouldn't be hard; it's been six months. T. Canens (talk) 23:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Mathsci TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) Zeromus1 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) Akuri (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) I have completely modified my statement in the light of very recent events. I apologize to those that have referred to my previous presentation which is still accessible in the page history. The main reason that The Devil's Advocate's (TDA) interaction ban should not be dropped is his recent championing of Akuri, repeating his championing of TrevelyanL85A2 (indefinitely blocked account, proxy-editing for Captain Occam) and Zeromus1 (a sockpuppet of the banned user Ferahgo the Assassin, Captain Occam's girlfriend). Akuri has now been blocked indefinitely by NuclearWarfare. TDA was completely aware that Akuri had out of the blue, with no prior knowledge of me, started making unprovoked personal attacks on me on WP:ANI. Nevertheless TDA lobbied for Akuri to be allowed to continue to edit and continued to have a close association with him. That indicates that TDA exercised extremely poor judgement. He has acted as an apologist for some of the most disruptive users connected with WP:ARBR&I. When TDA manages to have some prolonged period away from WP:ARBR&I editors that are blatantly engaged in continuing the campaigns of site-banned users, then his interaction ban should be reconsidered. The ban does not affect his normal editing in any way and will help prevent future repetition of this kind of gross misjudgement. His support for Akuri is undiminished even after NuclearWarfare's block. If TDA's priority is still to wikilawyer about a disruption-only account such as Akuri's, then his conduct has not reformed and all the assurances he has given above are worthless. Mathsci (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2013 (UTC) The 2 edits mentioned by TDA concern Apostle12 (NYB's proposed topic-ban) and Russavia (editing under the influence). There was also an enforcement request here by Russavia concerning Volunteer Marek. Both TDA and I made statements. TDA reverted an administrative action of Sandstein.with the edit summary rmv distracting and unnecessary notices. I restored Sandstein's edits. TDA called Sandstein an "officious little jerk" and a "petty tyrant" when warned not to reverse administrative actions. He was later warned about making personal attacks by KillerChihuahua, which he removed with the edit summary rmv petty nonsense. By contrast he was polite to Akuri while advising him on a strategy for requesting arbitration, some of it apparently concerning me. Mathsci (talk) 06:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC) Over on the site wikipediocracy, TDA has made comments which undermine his assurances here. The Devil's Advocate has argued here that his conduct has reformed. Nothing about his present conduct, including his continued support for the blocked user Akuri, with an agenda indistinguishable from that of the site-banned user Captain Occam, suggest that much has changed since October 2012. Mathsci (talk) 07:04, 18 May 2013 (UTC) WO has some relevance for WP:ARBR&I, because the Captain Occam campaign on WP is actively promoted from there. Captain Occam used WO for passing "evidence" about me to Cla68 that was submitted on WP in December 2012. That posting was considered relevant by arbcom. Mathsci (talk) 09:48, 18 May 2013 (UTC) The arbitration committee has already spent large amounts of time discussing the interaction bans, which included at one point discussing an interaction ban with an indefinitely blocked sockpuppet of a site-banned user (Ferahgo the Assassin). SirFozzie was one the main arbitrators to make general statements about one-way bans which were not supported by any evidence. At the moment, the most problematic thing that has happened was solved by blocking Akuri, whose unblock request was denied by AGK. Salvio has explained, without being specific, that the account might possibly be linked to users banned under WP:ARBR&I. Given the recent edits, it is becoming increasingly likely that Akuri is a sockpuppet of the site-banned editor Captain Occam. Meanwhile TDA continues supporting Akuri's requests to be unblocked. In November he continued to communicate with Zeromus1/Ferahgo, quizzing the basis her block, after the block had become an arbcom block. Arbitrators could theoretically discuss whether collaborating with sockpuppets or meatpuppets of site-banned users with an attack-only agenda is a good thing or not. Only one or two users have done so and they are amongst those with interaction bans. Moreover arbitrators/checkusers have proceeded directly to perform their own investigations and blocks of problematic editors (Zeromus1, Mors Martell, Akuri), avoiding time-consuming cases. Arbitrators should only be asked to look at something if there is a problem and at the moment there isn't. Mathsci (talk) 03:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Akuri I don't know if I am involved or not. I was not intending to comment here, but now that Mathsci has brought me up I should clarify something about my comment to D. Lazard. Regarding the possibility of requesting arbitration about Mathsci, here is what SilkTork said in December: "I think we need a full case to look carefully into all the issues here. We have a problem which is not being resolved, and motions are perhaps not the appropriate way of gathering evidence and finding a solution - especially when the Committee is divided. If the community are concerned enough about the trolling of Mathsci, and about the impact the fall out from that is having, someone will no doubt put forward a case request in the new year. It may well be that those of us who are involved in arbitration are getting a distorted view of this, and we are seeing it as more disruptive than it is; it is up to the community to let us know how disruptive the matter actually is." Here is what HersFold said in the same discussion. "I'm now thinking a case may be necessary as well. This does seem to be extending quite a good bit beyond what these motions could handle, and it's turning into a muddled mess. However, such a request may be better left until after new year's so we can have some fresher eyes looking at it." If The Devil's Advocate or I decides to make an arbitration request about Mathsci, it will be because arbitrators are expecting someone to make one. It's incredibly misleading to claim there is something wrong with contemplating making a request that arbitrators have already said they are expecting, or that this is a reason to not lift the interaction ban. But maybe a case won't be needed. We're at AE already, and anything that can be resolved here won't need arbitration. Akuri (talk) 23:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by The Devil's Advocate Statement by Momento I can't recall editing with any of the above or the articles and discussions mentioned. I have simply read what The Devil's Advocate and Mathsci have said and followed the links. It appears that TDA has faithfully adhered to his sanction for six months and it should be lifted. MOMENTO 23:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC) Watching this discussion unfold confirms my view that TDA's appeal should be lifted. This argument is bigger than an interaction ban appeal and continuing this sanction is not going to solve it. Six months is more than enough to make a point, further sanctioning is unnecessarily punitive. MOMENTO 02:16, 15 May 2013 (UTC) Fairness shouldn't be a popularity contest. TDA has honoured his "one way" sanction for six months, that's enough. All the arguments about what he might do or has done elsewhere are irrelevant. He's served his time.MOMENTO 23:00, 18 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by DavidLeighEllis Asymmetrical interaction bans seem inherently problematic, and should seldom be imposed. It's no surprise that this one is causing trouble. Either of the two obvious remedies for this problem may be implemented. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 02:10, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by IRWolfie- I don't see what has changed or why this should be overturned, nor has any reason been provided except claiming that it is inconvenient. If it's inconvenient, well that's just too bad. I think Mathsci's comments seems to offer factual, well considered and relevant points; nothing has changed so why should it be overturned? IRWolfie- (talk) 12:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC) @Collect an ad hom isn't fallacious if it provides reasoning for why another persons underlying motives are relevant, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Collect One-way interaction bans have never made a great deal of sense, and continue to make little sense. I rather believe I have said this in the past, and see no reason to iterate a long section (well -- actually they were short), but the fact remains - one way bans are an open invitation to see Game theory at work. All one way bans should simply be made mutual by motion. Collect (talk) 13:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC) @MS I made no comment here about you at all -- and I find your ad hom a tad disturbing and off-topic on this page, and to be a comment which likely ought to be removed. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:49, 16 May 2013 (UTC) @MS apologies are best made directly to the editors whom you need to apologize to, and not as a modest side comment. Collect (talk) 02:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC) @IRW - I suggest that the outre apology makes your excuses moot. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:38, 17 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Keithbob I have had a few minor interactions with both Mathsci and TDA but I have no clear opinion on the quality of their interactions nor knowledge of the history of their entanglements. However, I am opposed to one-sided interactions bans and TDA appears to have honored this ban despite his/her objections (as they should) and under sometimes challenging circumstances (like the Doncam ArbCom in which I participated) and I think the ban should either be lifted or made into a two-way ban.-- — *Keithbob* • Talk • 15:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by MastCell If this interaction ban is lifted, the most likely outcomes will be an increase in the already substantial time that TDA devotes to wiki-litigation, and an increase in the number of disputatious individuals active in the R&I arena. Neither prospect seems to hold clear benefit to the encyclopedia. MastCell 16:29, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by IP One-way interaction bans are currently allowed by policy. An appeal to 'upgrade' a one-way iban to two way on the basis that one ways are unfair was already rejected by arbcom (though it did get some support). As in that instance, AE should not now consider the mere existence of a one-way iban grounds for an appeal as it is not AE's place to declare one-way ibans against policy. If editors have an issue with one-way ibans they need to take it to the appropriate venue such as the policy page itself or a policy RFC of some sort. No comment on the validity of the appeal per other grounds. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Comment by Beyond My Ken @SirFozzie: While I have sympathy for your dislike of one-way bans, as they superficially seem inherently unfair, I would urge you not to act on the basis of your general feelings, and instead concentrate on the specifics of this case. Asymmetric sanctions are hardly unusual: think of the many ArbCom cases where one party is topic banned while the opposing party is simply warned. Such solutions become necessary when the behavior of one party contributes substantially more to the disruption than does the behavior of the other. A one-way interaction ban is no different, and this one was the result of an inherent asymmetry in the behaviors of TDA and Mathsci. I think that it's actually a rather nuanced solution, while the removal of the IBan would empower TDA and his allies in their obvious campaign of harrassment and wikilawyering against Mathsci. Not only would such a solution be unfair to the party who is less responsible for the situation, but it would, in my view, be unwise as well, and will almost certainly lead to further disruption. I urge you to reconsider your stance. Thanks, Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Comment by A Quest for Knowledge I'm not a fan of one-way interaction bans especially when both sides have exhibited problematic behavior. Overall, I have great respect for the AE process and the admins who volunteer to help handle Misplaced Pages's most troublesome disputes. I don't envy the difficult work that you have, and I commend you all for the hard work that you do. However, I feel this is one of those areas where AE did not handle the situation in the best possible way. There was problematic conduct on multiple fronts, but the sanctions were not applied evenly. Be that as it may, the easiest solution, and the one that will cause the least problems for Misplaced Pages in general is to change the interaction ban to two ways. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Comment by MONGO Completely concur with Mastcell...only since I'm just a MONGO, I had to look disputatious up...and it says "fond of having heated arguments". That sums it up. With all due respect to TDA, I do want to add that his arguments do oftentimes have validity, it's just that he oftentimes doesn't seem to know that there is more to do here than argue.--MONGO 23:07, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Comment by Sjones23 I concur with Mastcell as well. Given that the lifting of the ban may allow TDA and his allies to wage their campaign on harassment against Mathsci, I think that TDA, while still being a longtime and valuable contributor, sometimes does not even know if there is nothing more to do than get involved in contentious confrontations. Harassment has not, will not and should not be tolerated. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Comment by Lukeno94 I don't, personally, agree with one-way IBANs. That aside, TDA has followed it for 6 months, and if Mathsci is able to wander into a discussion where TDA has already been highly involved, with TDA then having to partially withdraw from the debate (ie, partial because they can't address Mathsci), is that really constructive and/or helpful for anyone? I'd say repeal the IBAN, with a strict warning that anything that appears to be harassment from TDA towards Mathsci would very quickly land them sanctions. I also feel the need to note, as others have, that both editors are generally good ones, but both can get a bit heated. Certainly neither is better than the other, and thus, a one-way interaction ban isn't warranted. Either apply it as a two-way, or bin it altogether. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:59, 17 May 2013 (UTC) Looking at Mathsci's comments, I think that a 2-way IBAN is definitely warranted. Mathsci is allowed, at present, to say absolutely anything they want about TDA, and generally belittle them - yet TDA can't respond. IBAN the pair of them, get this charade over with. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 10:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC) Comment by Apteva No one is allowed to belittle anyone, anywhere, for any reason. There is an ongoing RfC about how to enforce incivility, but from WP:NPA "Derogatory comments about other contributors may be removed by any editor." Editors do not, or should not, be responding to other editors in discussions. The response is to what was said, and is directed, correctly, only to the group, not to the editor. This is consensus 101. There are two methods of group decision making, parliamentary and consensus. Neither allow commenting to or about other contributors. From Roberts Rules of Order (summarized) "All remarks must be directed to the Chair. Remarks must be courteous in language and deportment - avoid all personalities, never allude to others by name or to motives!" With consensus decision making, the chair is the group, and the same rule applies: Direct all comments to the group, all remarks must be courteous, avoid all personalities, and never allude to others by name or by motive (unless the discussion is about that editor). Apteva (talk) 13:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC) Result of the appeal by The Devil's Advocate This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I have a great deal of sympathy for the claim that one-way interaction bans are inherently unfair. Especially when it turns out that it may hinder article discussion, as one party can feel free to challenge the other's posts and the other person cannot reply without violating their interaction ban. My inclination off hand is to lift the interaction ban, with a reminder that a return to unneeded "wiki-litigation" (as someone has said above would likely see a very low bar to a dual interaction or one-way interaction ban reinstated. SirFozzie (talk) 20:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC) I would suggest that since there is not a true consensus either way (to sustain the interaction ban, or to remove it), that this would be a ready-made opportunity to ask the Committee to review this interaction ban. SirFozzie (talk) 02:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC) I'm sorry, Mathsci, but asking the Committee to review a no consensus decision at AE is explicitly allowed. As for the rest of your comment, you may see no problem with the current situation,but that is because it is to your benefit to not see a problem here. SirFozzie (talk) 10:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC) Works for me, Ed. SirFozzie (talk) 17:27, 20 May 2013 (UTC) Without taking a position, I note that there are three possible outcomes. The one way ban stands, the ban is lifted, the ban is made two way. I see zero argument for making it two way, as "it is inherently unfair" holds no water with me. If one party is abusing the privilege, we give one way bans. We do not give two way bans for the purpose of appearing "even handed" in an uneven situation;; just as judges do not give restraining orders to both the stalker and the stalkee. TDA's argument for lifting seems to be "I have complied, even when it was hard, but now I want to be able to answer back." Kudos to TDA, but is that a rationale for lifting? Has there been any instance where the ban has prevented TDA from meaningful contribution, or stating his position, etc? Regarding the Domcram case, surely TDA could have made a statement without referencing Mathsci or his post? I would like input from other admins here; I myself would not find such a violation, but if they would, that needs to be considered. If Mathsci were to say "no diffs have been provided" and TDA were to then, without addressing Mathsci directly, post some diffs, would that be considered "gaming" or otherwise violating? And finally, I note we have yet to hear from T. Canens, and I would prefer to hear his thoughts prior to any decision being made here. Killer Chihuahua 22:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC) If the appeal had to be closed now, it lacks a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" to overturn T. Canen's one-way interaction ban. Roughly speaking there are five uninvolved editors who favor lifting TDA's ban or making it two-way and six editors who favor keeping the one-way ban as it is. KC has left a comment in the admin section but has stated that she is not taking a position, so no vote from her. Unless others favor a delay, the appeal should be closed soon as declined. A couple of people have suggested ways for TDA to respond to arguments made by Mathsci in indirect ways that would be consistent with the ban, but it is unclear whether future admins would consider these ideas to be valid loopholes, and there was no consensus here on their validity. EdJohnston (talk) 16:35, 18 May 2013 (UTC) @SirFozzie: It is agreed that Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Reversal of enforcement actions allows the parties to refer an unclear result from AE to the committee by a request for clarification. Such an option makes little practical difference to TDA since he could appeal from AE to the committee anyway. EdJohnston (talk) 14:12, 19 May 2013 (UTC) Just to piggyback on that a bit: Yes, the parties may appeal, and for that reason, I don't think there's any need for the admins at AE to do so. It ought to be left up TDA whether he wants to pursue it to that level or cease appealing. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC) How about closing this with the following text: "There is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors here at AE to lift the one-way interaction ban on TDA. He retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom." EdJohnston (talk) 14:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC) Now closing since SirFozzie accepts the proposed text, and Heimstern supports the general idea. There is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors here at AE to lift TDA's one-way interaction ban from Mathsci. TDA retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom. EdJohnston (talk) 17:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Declined since there is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors to lift TDA's one-way interaction ban with Mathsci. TDA retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom by making a request for clarification. EdJohnston (talk) 18:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: One-way interaction ban with User:Mathsci imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive125#Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate, logged at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions

Administrator imposing the sanction: Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Over the past six and a half months or so I have complied with this restriction despite my objections to the sanction in general and its one-way nature in particular. This has not been without challenge as several times I have been involved in discussions where Mathsci was involved, often after I became involved. Even when he has responded to something I have said I have avoided addressing, commenting on, or interacting with, Mathsci in any fashion. As it stands, not being able to discuss matters with him has hampered my ability to participate in certain processes. In particular, although Mathsci does not edit articles or talk pages explicitly concerning R&I, he continues to involve himself in its affairs through project and userspace. Occasionally, this means I am in a situation where a matter concerns my editing activity in that topic area, but my ability to address the matter is hampered by Mathsci's ability to comment and my inability to respond. I thus ask for the restriction to be lifted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

The Doncram case is an example of one of my points above. Mathsci's first comment in the case was to dispute one of my proposed findings. He then spent much of the case disputing my arguments. As a result, my ability to defend my statements was hampered because responding to his comments would have been a violation of my interaction ban. Some of the evidence he presented actually supported my position, but I was not able to point that out given the restriction.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

The only talk I had of arbitration with Akuri consisted of me encouraging him not to pursue it and saying that, if my appeal failed, I would probably pursue it myself. Basically, I was saying that if an AE appeal failed that I would likely pursue an appeal to ArbCom.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:25, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

@Fozzie, MastCell's comments about "wiki-litigation" are misguided and shouldn't be given much weight. As it concerns R&I, I believe I have filed exactly three requests at noticeboards over the past year, not including this appeal, with each regarding separate issues. The "un-needed" part is purely subjective as said requests did touch on legitimate and substantive concerns that I and other editors had regarding a situation. Only one of those requests, the earliest one, directly concerned Mathsci. Generally, I take great care to only suggest taking action when I feel it is needed and prior to the interaction ban the worse thing I suggested for Mathsci is an admonishment. Despite what some say there is no imminent risk of me filing some massive request for action against Mathsci should the restriction be lifted. As long as he leaves me alone, or at least doesn't do anything extreme, I envision no reason why I would suggest any action against him. This has always been the case, including prior to the interaction ban.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:25, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

@KC, please move your comment out of the uninvolved administrator section. You are far from uninvolved regarding me or the R&I topic area.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

As far as Tim's request, there are numerous instances of varying complexity, but some are straight-forward. On one occasion I commented in an ANI discussion regarding another editor and in response to what one editor said to me Mathsci made this remark accusing me of editing from a "race realist" perspective, with that phrase having an easter egg link to the article on scientific racism. Another incident involved me removing a personal attack made by a proxy IP and Mathsci immediately restoring it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Not sure how the tone of two remarks to two people who are not Mathsci is relevant to my interaction ban with Mathsci. For the sake of convenience here is Mathsci's original statement.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 09:26, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Mathsci, WO is WO and Misplaced Pages is Misplaced Pages. Two separate sites. I would say that the notion I said anything seriously problematic about you there is not very good and you were the one who bumped that thread in the first place after ten days of inactivity. You also seem more than happy to talk to me there.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 08:10, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Timotheus Canens

I see no compelling reason to lift the restriction, and in fact have little doubt that the disruptive acrimonious interactions would recur if it were lifted. I do not regard the claim regarding the Doncram case, which is the only concrete example TDA cited, to be compelling; even assuming for the sake of argument that TDA could not have amplified their views on the nature of Orlady's interactions with Doncram without violating the interaction ban (a rather doubtful proposition), they could have easily submitted a rebuttal of Mathsci's comments to the Committee via email if they wanted to.

As to the one-way nature of the interaction ban, I think it would be a spectacularly bad idea to make it two-way six months after the original restriction was imposed without actual, concrete evidence that the one-way ban is not working. I'm open to reconsidering if there's some hard evidence of Mathsci inappropriately taking advantage of the one-way nature of interaction ban. Finding such evidence if there's actual misconduct shouldn't be hard; it's been six months. T. Canens (talk) 23:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Mathsci

TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
Zeromus1 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
Akuri (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

I have completely modified my statement in the light of very recent events. I apologize to those that have referred to my previous presentation which is still accessible in the page history.

The main reason that The Devil's Advocate's (TDA) interaction ban should not be dropped is his recent championing of Akuri, repeating his championing of TrevelyanL85A2 (indefinitely blocked account, proxy-editing for Captain Occam) and Zeromus1 (a sockpuppet of the banned user Ferahgo the Assassin, Captain Occam's girlfriend). Akuri has now been blocked indefinitely by NuclearWarfare. TDA was completely aware that Akuri had out of the blue, with no prior knowledge of me, started making unprovoked personal attacks on me on WP:ANI. Nevertheless TDA lobbied for Akuri to be allowed to continue to edit and continued to have a close association with him. That indicates that TDA exercised extremely poor judgement. He has acted as an apologist for some of the most disruptive users connected with WP:ARBR&I. When TDA manages to have some prolonged period away from WP:ARBR&I editors that are blatantly engaged in continuing the campaigns of site-banned users, then his interaction ban should be reconsidered. The ban does not affect his normal editing in any way and will help prevent future repetition of this kind of gross misjudgement. His support for Akuri is undiminished even after NuclearWarfare's block. If TDA's priority is still to wikilawyer about a disruption-only account such as Akuri's, then his conduct has not reformed and all the assurances he has given above are worthless. Mathsci (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The 2 edits mentioned by TDA concern Apostle12 (NYB's proposed topic-ban) and Russavia (editing under the influence). There was also an enforcement request here by Russavia concerning Volunteer Marek. Both TDA and I made statements. TDA reverted an administrative action of Sandstein.with the edit summary rmv distracting and unnecessary notices. I restored Sandstein's edits. TDA called Sandstein an "officious little jerk" and a "petty tyrant" when warned not to reverse administrative actions. He was later warned about making personal attacks by KillerChihuahua, which he removed with the edit summary rmv petty nonsense. By contrast he was polite to Akuri while advising him on a strategy for requesting arbitration, some of it apparently concerning me. Mathsci (talk) 06:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Over on the site wikipediocracy, TDA has made comments which undermine his assurances here. The Devil's Advocate has argued here that his conduct has reformed. Nothing about his present conduct, including his continued support for the blocked user Akuri, with an agenda indistinguishable from that of the site-banned user Captain Occam, suggest that much has changed since October 2012. Mathsci (talk) 07:04, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
WO has some relevance for WP:ARBR&I, because the Captain Occam campaign on WP is actively promoted from there. Captain Occam used WO for passing "evidence" about me to Cla68 that was submitted on WP in December 2012. That posting was considered relevant by arbcom. Mathsci (talk) 09:48, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
The arbitration committee has already spent large amounts of time discussing the interaction bans, which included at one point discussing an interaction ban with an indefinitely blocked sockpuppet of a site-banned user (Ferahgo the Assassin). SirFozzie was one the main arbitrators to make general statements about one-way bans which were not supported by any evidence. At the moment, the most problematic thing that has happened was solved by blocking Akuri, whose unblock request was denied by AGK. Salvio has explained, without being specific, that the account might possibly be linked to users banned under WP:ARBR&I. Given the recent edits, it is becoming increasingly likely that Akuri is a sockpuppet of the site-banned editor Captain Occam. Meanwhile TDA continues supporting Akuri's requests to be unblocked. In November he continued to communicate with Zeromus1/Ferahgo, quizzing the basis her block, after the block had become an arbcom block. Arbitrators could theoretically discuss whether collaborating with sockpuppets or meatpuppets of site-banned users with an attack-only agenda is a good thing or not. Only one or two users have done so and they are amongst those with interaction bans. Moreover arbitrators/checkusers have proceeded directly to perform their own investigations and blocks of problematic editors (Zeromus1, Mors Martell, Akuri), avoiding time-consuming cases. Arbitrators should only be asked to look at something if there is a problem and at the moment there isn't. Mathsci (talk) 03:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Akuri

I don't know if I am involved or not. I was not intending to comment here, but now that Mathsci has brought me up I should clarify something about my comment to D. Lazard.

Regarding the possibility of requesting arbitration about Mathsci, here is what SilkTork said in December:

"I think we need a full case to look carefully into all the issues here. We have a problem which is not being resolved, and motions are perhaps not the appropriate way of gathering evidence and finding a solution - especially when the Committee is divided. If the community are concerned enough about the trolling of Mathsci, and about the impact the fall out from that is having, someone will no doubt put forward a case request in the new year. It may well be that those of us who are involved in arbitration are getting a distorted view of this, and we are seeing it as more disruptive than it is; it is up to the community to let us know how disruptive the matter actually is."

Here is what HersFold said in the same discussion.

"I'm now thinking a case may be necessary as well. This does seem to be extending quite a good bit beyond what these motions could handle, and it's turning into a muddled mess. However, such a request may be better left until after new year's so we can have some fresher eyes looking at it."

If The Devil's Advocate or I decides to make an arbitration request about Mathsci, it will be because arbitrators are expecting someone to make one. It's incredibly misleading to claim there is something wrong with contemplating making a request that arbitrators have already said they are expecting, or that this is a reason to not lift the interaction ban. But maybe a case won't be needed. We're at AE already, and anything that can be resolved here won't need arbitration. Akuri (talk) 23:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by The Devil's Advocate

Statement by Momento

I can't recall editing with any of the above or the articles and discussions mentioned. I have simply read what The Devil's Advocate and Mathsci have said and followed the links. It appears that TDA has faithfully adhered to his sanction for six months and it should be lifted. MOMENTO 23:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Watching this discussion unfold confirms my view that TDA's appeal should be lifted. This argument is bigger than an interaction ban appeal and continuing this sanction is not going to solve it. Six months is more than enough to make a point, further sanctioning is unnecessarily punitive. MOMENTO 02:16, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Fairness shouldn't be a popularity contest. TDA has honoured his "one way" sanction for six months, that's enough. All the arguments about what he might do or has done elsewhere are irrelevant. He's served his time.MOMENTO 23:00, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by DavidLeighEllis

Asymmetrical interaction bans seem inherently problematic, and should seldom be imposed. It's no surprise that this one is causing trouble. Either of the two obvious remedies for this problem may be implemented. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 02:10, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by IRWolfie-

I don't see what has changed or why this should be overturned, nor has any reason been provided except claiming that it is inconvenient. If it's inconvenient, well that's just too bad. I think Mathsci's comments seems to offer factual, well considered and relevant points; nothing has changed so why should it be overturned? IRWolfie- (talk) 12:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

@Collect an ad hom isn't fallacious if it provides reasoning for why another persons underlying motives are relevant, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Collect

One-way interaction bans have never made a great deal of sense, and continue to make little sense. I rather believe I have said this in the past, and see no reason to iterate a long section (well -- actually they were short), but the fact remains - one way bans are an open invitation to see Game theory at work. All one way bans should simply be made mutual by motion. Collect (talk) 13:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

@MS I made no comment here about you at all -- and I find your ad hom a tad disturbing and off-topic on this page, and to be a comment which likely ought to be removed. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:49, 16 May 2013 (UTC) @MS apologies are best made directly to the editors whom you need to apologize to, and not as a modest side comment. Collect (talk) 02:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC) @IRW - I suggest that the outre apology makes your excuses moot. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:38, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Keithbob

I have had a few minor interactions with both Mathsci and TDA but I have no clear opinion on the quality of their interactions nor knowledge of the history of their entanglements. However, I am opposed to one-sided interactions bans and TDA appears to have honored this ban despite his/her objections (as they should) and under sometimes challenging circumstances (like the Doncam ArbCom in which I participated) and I think the ban should either be lifted or made into a two-way ban.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by MastCell

If this interaction ban is lifted, the most likely outcomes will be an increase in the already substantial time that TDA devotes to wiki-litigation, and an increase in the number of disputatious individuals active in the R&I arena. Neither prospect seems to hold clear benefit to the encyclopedia. MastCell 16:29, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by IP

One-way interaction bans are currently allowed by policy. An appeal to 'upgrade' a one-way iban to two way on the basis that one ways are unfair was already rejected by arbcom (though it did get some support). As in that instance, AE should not now consider the mere existence of a one-way iban grounds for an appeal as it is not AE's place to declare one-way ibans against policy.

If editors have an issue with one-way ibans they need to take it to the appropriate venue such as the policy page itself or a policy RFC of some sort.

No comment on the validity of the appeal per other grounds. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Beyond My Ken

@SirFozzie: While I have sympathy for your dislike of one-way bans, as they superficially seem inherently unfair, I would urge you not to act on the basis of your general feelings, and instead concentrate on the specifics of this case. Asymmetric sanctions are hardly unusual: think of the many ArbCom cases where one party is topic banned while the opposing party is simply warned. Such solutions become necessary when the behavior of one party contributes substantially more to the disruption than does the behavior of the other. A one-way interaction ban is no different, and this one was the result of an inherent asymmetry in the behaviors of TDA and Mathsci. I think that it's actually a rather nuanced solution, while the removal of the IBan would empower TDA and his allies in their obvious campaign of harrassment and wikilawyering against Mathsci. Not only would such a solution be unfair to the party who is less responsible for the situation, but it would, in my view, be unwise as well, and will almost certainly lead to further disruption. I urge you to reconsider your stance. Thanks, Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by A Quest for Knowledge

I'm not a fan of one-way interaction bans especially when both sides have exhibited problematic behavior. Overall, I have great respect for the AE process and the admins who volunteer to help handle Misplaced Pages's most troublesome disputes. I don't envy the difficult work that you have, and I commend you all for the hard work that you do. However, I feel this is one of those areas where AE did not handle the situation in the best possible way. There was problematic conduct on multiple fronts, but the sanctions were not applied evenly. Be that as it may, the easiest solution, and the one that will cause the least problems for Misplaced Pages in general is to change the interaction ban to two ways. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by MONGO

Completely concur with Mastcell...only since I'm just a MONGO, I had to look disputatious up...and it says "fond of having heated arguments". That sums it up. With all due respect to TDA, I do want to add that his arguments do oftentimes have validity, it's just that he oftentimes doesn't seem to know that there is more to do here than argue.--MONGO 23:07, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Sjones23

I concur with Mastcell as well. Given that the lifting of the ban may allow TDA and his allies to wage their campaign on harassment against Mathsci, I think that TDA, while still being a longtime and valuable contributor, sometimes does not even know if there is nothing more to do than get involved in contentious confrontations. Harassment has not, will not and should not be tolerated. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Lukeno94

I don't, personally, agree with one-way IBANs. That aside, TDA has followed it for 6 months, and if Mathsci is able to wander into a discussion where TDA has already been highly involved, with TDA then having to partially withdraw from the debate (ie, partial because they can't address Mathsci), is that really constructive and/or helpful for anyone? I'd say repeal the IBAN, with a strict warning that anything that appears to be harassment from TDA towards Mathsci would very quickly land them sanctions. I also feel the need to note, as others have, that both editors are generally good ones, but both can get a bit heated. Certainly neither is better than the other, and thus, a one-way interaction ban isn't warranted. Either apply it as a two-way, or bin it altogether. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:59, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking at Mathsci's comments, I think that a 2-way IBAN is definitely warranted. Mathsci is allowed, at present, to say absolutely anything they want about TDA, and generally belittle them - yet TDA can't respond. IBAN the pair of them, get this charade over with. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 10:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Apteva

No one is allowed to belittle anyone, anywhere, for any reason. There is an ongoing RfC about how to enforce incivility, but from WP:NPA "Derogatory comments about other contributors may be removed by any editor." Editors do not, or should not, be responding to other editors in discussions. The response is to what was said, and is directed, correctly, only to the group, not to the editor. This is consensus 101. There are two methods of group decision making, parliamentary and consensus. Neither allow commenting to or about other contributors. From Roberts Rules of Order (summarized) "All remarks must be directed to the Chair. Remarks must be courteous in language and deportment - avoid all personalities, never allude to others by name or to motives!" With consensus decision making, the chair is the group, and the same rule applies: Direct all comments to the group, all remarks must be courteous, avoid all personalities, and never allude to others by name or by motive (unless the discussion is about that editor). Apteva (talk) 13:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by The Devil's Advocate

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the claim that one-way interaction bans are inherently unfair. Especially when it turns out that it may hinder article discussion, as one party can feel free to challenge the other's posts and the other person cannot reply without violating their interaction ban. My inclination off hand is to lift the interaction ban, with a reminder that a return to unneeded "wiki-litigation" (as someone has said above would likely see a very low bar to a dual interaction or one-way interaction ban reinstated. SirFozzie (talk) 20:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest that since there is not a true consensus either way (to sustain the interaction ban, or to remove it), that this would be a ready-made opportunity to ask the Committee to review this interaction ban. SirFozzie (talk) 02:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Mathsci, but asking the Committee to review a no consensus decision at AE is explicitly allowed. As for the rest of your comment, you may see no problem with the current situation,but that is because it is to your benefit to not see a problem here. SirFozzie (talk) 10:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Works for me, Ed. SirFozzie (talk) 17:27, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Without taking a position, I note that there are three possible outcomes. The one way ban stands, the ban is lifted, the ban is made two way. I see zero argument for making it two way, as "it is inherently unfair" holds no water with me. If one party is abusing the privilege, we give one way bans. We do not give two way bans for the purpose of appearing "even handed" in an uneven situation;; just as judges do not give restraining orders to both the stalker and the stalkee. TDA's argument for lifting seems to be "I have complied, even when it was hard, but now I want to be able to answer back." Kudos to TDA, but is that a rationale for lifting? Has there been any instance where the ban has prevented TDA from meaningful contribution, or stating his position, etc? Regarding the Domcram case, surely TDA could have made a statement without referencing Mathsci or his post? I would like input from other admins here; I myself would not find such a violation, but if they would, that needs to be considered. If Mathsci were to say "no diffs have been provided" and TDA were to then, without addressing Mathsci directly, post some diffs, would that be considered "gaming" or otherwise violating? And finally, I note we have yet to hear from T. Canens, and I would prefer to hear his thoughts prior to any decision being made here. Killer Chihuahua 22:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

If the appeal had to be closed now, it lacks a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" to overturn T. Canen's one-way interaction ban. Roughly speaking there are five uninvolved editors who favor lifting TDA's ban or making it two-way and six editors who favor keeping the one-way ban as it is. KC has left a comment in the admin section but has stated that she is not taking a position, so no vote from her. Unless others favor a delay, the appeal should be closed soon as declined. A couple of people have suggested ways for TDA to respond to arguments made by Mathsci in indirect ways that would be consistent with the ban, but it is unclear whether future admins would consider these ideas to be valid loopholes, and there was no consensus here on their validity. EdJohnston (talk) 16:35, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

@SirFozzie: It is agreed that Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Reversal of enforcement actions allows the parties to refer an unclear result from AE to the committee by a request for clarification. Such an option makes little practical difference to TDA since he could appeal from AE to the committee anyway. EdJohnston (talk) 14:12, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to piggyback on that a bit: Yes, the parties may appeal, and for that reason, I don't think there's any need for the admins at AE to do so. It ought to be left up TDA whether he wants to pursue it to that level or cease appealing. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

How about closing this with the following text: "There is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors here at AE to lift the one-way interaction ban on TDA. He retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom." EdJohnston (talk) 14:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Now closing since SirFozzie accepts the proposed text, and Heimstern supports the general idea. There is no clear, substantial and active consensus of uninvolved editors here at AE to lift TDA's one-way interaction ban from Mathsci. TDA retains the usual option of appealing to Arbcom. EdJohnston (talk) 17:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Apteva

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Apteva (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Apteva (talk) 18:42, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: and from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles.

This was applied at the request of one editor with no supporting evidence, and was apposed by a non-involved admin as being non-content neutral. See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Dicklyon. While it is obvious that MOS and article title policy cover different aspects of Misplaced Pages, it is a fringe theory that MOS does apply to article titles. It is not something that I have advocated or opposed to any undue length, and no diffs were presented to indicate that taking a stand one way or the other was a problem. Logged at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions

Administrator imposing the sanction: Gatoclass (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: 15 May 2013

Statement by Apteva

The sanction is absurd, meaningless, and without merit. Were it to stand I would call it "the sky is blue topic ban", a ban against stating an obvious fact. As noted, the issue at hand was not my behavior, but the persistent "gratuitous comments on contributor in discussions", and it sets a bad precedent to automatically give out sanctions to the complaintant in addition to or instead of the complaintee. Doing so has a chilling effect on bringing complaints, and is contradictory to the good of Misplaced Pages. Not one diff was presented that I was "advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles", and even if I was, there is nothing wrong with that. Advocating the opposite is what would be bizarre, but it would also not be sanctionable. The topic ban simply follows the typical approach of "topic ban everyone who disagrees with us and then pretend that we have reached consensus." I request that this additional ban be lifted, as unsupported, misguided, and unwarranted.

"The arbitration process, and admins generally, have no authority over content issues, including over the question as to how we apply the MOS to content. We must therefore not enact sanctions that ban a user from voicing a particular opinion. But, if their conduct in discussions about this topic is deficient, we can ban them from discussing the topic altogether, irrespective of the opinions they put forward"

There is no evidence that my conduct in discussions about the MOS or article titles is deficient. I am a frequent contributor to all RM discussions, and appropriately suggest improvements to the MOS when I see deficiencies, although that is done only very rarely, as my interests lie in other areas than in the MOS guidelines. Apteva (talk) 18:42, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

None of the links provided are evidence of any current behavior that needs to be checked, as all of them are from January. In the last three months, I have made over 2,000 edits, hundreds of them RM discussions, and if this was an issue my talk page would be riddled with complaints by now. This request is completely out of the woodworks and is totally unsupported by even one diff that exhibits a problem that needs to be addressed.

On February 15 I was canvassed to participate in a MOS discussion titled WP:NCCAPS → "shorter than five letters" rule, which I had contributed to in December, and I declined, stating that "we use wp:article titles policy, not MOS to choose titles". Is that a problem? (that was on my talk page) NCCAPS is a naming convention, part of article title policy, and not a part of the MOS guidelines.

Misplaced Pages does not have a (choose your favorite villian) Party that dictates what everyone has to think and anyone who disagrees must be censored from saying otherwise. This ban is completely ridiculous. I have not been "discussing whether MOS should be applied to titles", and should not be sanctioned for doing so. Where are the diffs that I have made one such edit in the last month? Or two months, or even three? Is this really an ongoing problem, or is it simply in someone's imagination that my thinking the obvious is actually a problem, just because they have a fringe view of how Misplaced Pages works, and want to stifle all other views? Apteva (talk) 18:14, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

And if I can not discuss whether MOS should be applied, I would be free to unequivocally state that it was, and was not, but could not discuss whether is was or was not? This is getting even more silly. I can not quote MOS anywhere in Misplaced Pages??? How am I supposed to edit anything? Apteva (talk) 18:19, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

As to the April edit, that was the revert of an undiscussed bold edit. If anyone has a campaign, it is not me. As there is absolutely nothing unique to band names, as apposed to any other article capitalization, there is no need for a band name capitalization section at all, and it was appropriately removed. Apteva (talk) 19:57, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Check the history. There was nothing on the talk page about adding to the capitalization section at the time that addition was made. The proposal on the table was to delete the section., which was added because the page looked like this. The appropriate step would have been to say, no, and I think it should be expanded, because punk rockers can't get band names right, and we don't like the capitalization they use, and want to use our own, or whatever reason, and this is different from say, book titles, and need to have the information repeated here (so that someone can make different rules here and create a content fork from NCCAPS)... It is like changing the name of an article while there is an AFD – pointless. Unless disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point is the objective. Apteva (talk) 16:21, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Gatoclass

I will try to keep this brief as I don't want to waste any more time on this than I already have. I had a number of reasons for modifying the original sanction to include the phrase and against the MOS being applicable to article titles. Firstly, that wording was included in the originally proposed topic ban, which received strong consensus at AN/I, here. I don't know why Seraphimblade chose to omit the phrase when imposing the actual sanction and was unable to query him on it since he is not currently active; however, in coming to the decision I did, I was influenced by Seraphimblade's comment later in the AN/I discussion when he described a proposal by Apetva to remove references to MOS in WP:TITLE as clearly related to Apteva's activity in the area of dashes/hyphens, and ... a violation of the ban. While Seraphimblade went on to state that he felt no extension of the ban would be necessary before imposing a sanction for such edits, I am of the opinion that it is generally better to remove ambiguities in the scope of a topic ban in order to avoid any possible chance of misunderstanding and thus potential future wikidrama.

I was further influenced in my decision by a couple of recent edits by Apteva, one of which removed reference to MOS in the WP:Naming conventions (music) guideline, which might be interpreted as a renewal of the same campaign, and also by some comments at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans, where the user made what I considered to be some ill-informed comments regarding policy, particularly that WP:BLP applies to articles about the deceased. Apteva is also in the habit of making absolutist statements on talk pages which indicates possible ongoing difficulties with collaboration. It was for these reasons I initially considered a broader MOS- or TITLE-related ban for Apteva, but after they assured me on my talk page that they no longer belabour a point I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt and merely modify the original ban to reflect the originally proposed wording.

Apteva states that they have made "hundreds of edits in RM discussions" in the past few months without complaint, if that is the case I suppose the above handful of edits might be considered unrepresentative; nonetheless the extension of the ban I made would not impinge on their ability to continue contributing to such debates; the extension only prohibits them from advocating a particular view related to a meta-issue on which they have been deemed disruptive in the past. Given Seraphimblade's comments, I am still inclined to view this modified wording as more of a clarification than an extension; however, I don't feel strongly about this issue, and if the consensus among reviewing admins is that Apteva's recent conduct is not sufficiently problematic to warrant the rewording, or that the rewording is unnecessary, I won't argue the point. Gatoclass (talk) 13:54, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Dicklyon

The evidence of the problem, and of the community's support for this ban as a partial solution, is plentiful, starting with the section under my name above, and including, going back in time: , , , , among other places. Dicklyon (talk) 03:49, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The most recent anti-MOS-in-titles disruption that he says there's no evidence of is this section blanking in naming conventions. (remarkably, he now claims above that his section blanking was a revert of an undiscussed bold edit, which it most clearly was not; it was neither a revert nor was the prior change undiscussed; my edit before his blanking was in fact a clarification prompted by his own initiated discussion, in which he pointed out a potential problem that I fixed, at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (music)#Capitalization. par for the course.)

As for ErikHaugen's suggestion, I don't mind it being more neutral, but the trouble with replacing "advocating" with "discussing" is that it doesn't prohibit steps like the one I just linked above, in which the anti-MOS advocacy was in the form of section blanking, not discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 19:00, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Ohconfucius

oh boy, the circus is back in town again just as the Big Top was being dismantled. Do you think it's wise? You have lots of seats to fill, and few of us want to see the show again after the clown disgraced himself and the tiger pissed all over the audience. ;-) -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 04:12, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor N)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Apteva

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

<Sigh>....the inability to let things go is the cause of most topic bans. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:05, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved ErikHaugen

I want to address a couple of points that Apteva raised.

it sets a bad precedent to automatically give out sanctions to the complaintant in addition to or instead of the complaintee — This precedent is already quite well established. This happens all the time. See wp:BOOMERANG. Regardless of the merits of the rest of this appeal, this should not be considered to be an issue.
apposed by a non-involved admin as being non-content neutral — I was a bit surprised to see this, too. I think it would be a reasonable outcome of this appeal that and from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles be replaced with something like ~~and from discussing whether the MOS is applicable to article titles~~. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Per Dicklyon, this should probably be something that would prohibit any edits related to the issue, if it's changed. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved SmokeyJoe

It is appropriate that there is a chilling effect on bringing a complaint. Weak complainants deserve a bucket of cold water. If you are going to complain about another editor and seek a formal sanction, you ought to be at least several shades better in standing. WP:BOOMERANG. Bringing a formal complaint is an aggressive act. An alternative is to ask another for help.

I admit to not understanding the ban in question. "the MOS" reads as a contradiction, because there is no single MOS. The multiple MOSs are guidelines, WP:AT is policy, guidelines are usually considered to defer to policy pages where there is there is discrepancy, which sounds a tad legalistic and should be read instead as "where there is discrepancy, fix the guideline to remove the discrepancy". It is very unclear as to what it is that Apteva would like to do that the sanction prevents.

Apteva appears to have been found guilty of filing a weak request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Dicklyon. WP:BOOMERANG requires a response. I think that WP:TROUT would have been better, that the longer-lasting insult of a sanction was a little bit strong. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved editor Dirtlawyer1

This comment is directed to Gatoclass. WP:BLP does, in fact, explicitly apply to the recently deceased. In pertinent part, the introductory paragraph of WP:BLP states:

"We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."

The added emphasis is mine. Whether this is relevant in a talk page discussion about someone who died in 1997 I leave to the sound discretion of the reader. I take no position on the merits of this appeal. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Apteva

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I've reviewed the information provided, and the evidence from both Apteva and Gatoclass, and my inclination at this time is to decline the appeal, however, I will leave this open in case other administrators wish to comment on it. SirFozzie (talk) 05:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Nataev

Appeal declined. EdJohnston (talk) 15:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Appealing user Nataev (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Nataev (talk) 20:53, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Sanction being appealed Topic ban from the subject of Goldblum Administrator imposing the sanction Salvio giuliano (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification. Statement by Nataev I perfectly understand why I have been topic banned. I repeatedly violated BLP rules, even though I was warned multiple times. Therefore I believe the ban was well deserved. I apologize for repeatedly breaking the rules. While I'm not interested in this particular subject, having a ban is bothering me very much. I feel like it's a bad mark on my record as a Misplaced Pages editor. Please take a look at my previous work to judge my work on Misplaced Pages. I will avoid writing on the subject altogether. I will avoid breaching BLP rules in the future. I ask, in good faith, to have the ban lifted. I'm willing to comply with any demands that will help me have the ban lifted. Note: Initially I didn't really understand how topic bans work. I thought topic bans technically block users from making any changes. That's why I made this test edit. At the time I didn't know this would constitute a breach of the ban. I thought I wouldn't be able to save this edit because I believed I had been technically blocked from making any changes on this topic. I apologize for this mistake. I'm sorry if my statements were not very specific. I perfectly understand why I have been topic banned. I repeatedly violated BLP rules, even though I was warned multiple times. Therefore I believe the ban was well deserved. I want to appeal the ban because I see it as a bad mark on my record. I have no motivation to edit on this particular subject in the future. However, I will avoid breaking rules while editing BLP articles in the future. Thank you. Nataev (talk) 22:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC) I apologize to everyone, especially you, Nomoskedasticity. I'm determined not to get involved in such topics ever again. By now I understand that breaking BLP rules is a serious matter. I hope you will understand my concerns and help me get the ban lifted. Thanks, Nataev (talk) 21:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Salvio, the reason I kept writing even after I decided to withdraw was the continued responses of Goldblum. He just couldn't stop mentioning me and attacking me in his comments. That's why I felt obliged to respond. In fact if you take a look at his latest comments, he's now attacking others. See this. He's gonna fight tooth and nail to whitewash himself. I used to believe Misplaced Pages could be neutral. If you think about it, Misplaced Pages is for volunteers. You guys think you're in a position to discourage people from contributing. Well, so be it. I bet you can't find a single person, not one, who can write on the topics I can. Anyhow, I'm tired of admins' conceited, biased, and impartial comments. I'm leaving. Nataev (talk) 09:31, 17 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Salvio giuliano My problem is that Nataev repeatedly declared he intended to withdraw from the discussion, but then failed to so, continuing to attack Goldblum – examples: 1, 2, 3; here he writes "I wish I could be left out of this. I leave it to them to decide where the article is biased or not.", but ten minutes later he writes this. Had Nataev not continued to attack Goldblum in spite of his stated intention to ignore the scholar, I'd have ignored the thread, but since he continued, I felt a topic ban was necessary to stop disruption to the project. In general, I usually support lifting a restriction, if the user in question undertakes to refrain from the behaviour which caused the sanction to be imposed in the first place; in this case, however, considering, as I've already said, that Nataev repeatedly told he'd stop discussing Goldblum, but kept on posting attacks nonetheless, I don't think it would be wise to accept his appeal. So, I suggest his request is declined. Salvio 09:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Nomoskedasticity This is the ANI discussion where Nataev made repeated BLP violations against the subject of an article. Nataev might be bothered by having a topic ban on record, but it was richly deserved and there's no reason at all to lift it; his repeated declarations that he is "not interested in this subject" are belied by his repeated posts about it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Iselilja I don't know much about Nataev, as I first became aware of him when I became aware of the Amiram Goldblum article (which I watchlisted). Nataev's comment on Goldblum was obviously troubling (re:BLP), so I understand why the topic ban was placed. However, taken a look at the rest of Nataev's history here, I get the impression that he is a serious, no-drama user who has made valuable contributions. The Goldblum affair appears to be untypical, and my impression is that Nataev now just want to go back to no-drama constructive editing (or leave). There is a negative psychological effect of having a topic ban registered which I think should not be overlooked. Showing a bit of clemency, respect and trust even to people who have got themselves in trouble often gives better results - on Misplaced Pages as in real life - I believe. I would support lifting the topic ban provided Nataev clearly states that he won’t make any edits or comments concerning Goldblum on Misplaced Pages ever again. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 22:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by RolandR Moved out of threaded discussion Surely the above comment, too, is a breach of the topic ban. Not a good idea in an appeal against the ban! RolandR (talk) 10:07, 17 May 2013 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Nataev Result of the appeal by Nataev This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I would decline the appeal. Nataev does not argue that the appealed sanction was procedurally or materially flawed, and indeed it does not appear to be in error at first glance. The appeal contains only vague generalities about WP:BLP, but does not indicate that Nataev understands how or why their actions violated that policy, and how (if unbanned) they will edit about this subject in a policy-compliant manner (see, by analogy, WP:GAB). We must therefore assume that the ban is (still) necessary to prevent violations of WP:BLP. Sandstein 22:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC) I am blocking Nataev for this violation of the topic ban (which cannot be excused as part of necessary dispute resolution in the context of this appeal, because the allegation of wrongdoing on the part of Amiram Goldblum was not necessary to argue this appeal). Without objection by uninvolved admins, given the direction this is going in, I think we can close this as declined soon. Sandstein 10:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC) Closing as declined. If an editor declares he is leaving a topic and then keeps on going back to it we can't take him seriously. This edit where Nataev defends his description of Goldblum as an 'obscure, semi-literate scholar' should not give us much optimism about Nataev's editing of BLP articles. Note that this topic ban was issued by Salvio under WP:BLPSE and not ARBPIA. EdJohnston (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Appeal declined. EdJohnston (talk) 15:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: Nataev (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Nataev (talk) 20:53, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: Topic ban from the subject of Goldblum

Administrator imposing the sanction: Salvio giuliano (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Nataev

I perfectly understand why I have been topic banned. I repeatedly violated BLP rules, even though I was warned multiple times. Therefore I believe the ban was well deserved. I apologize for repeatedly breaking the rules.

While I'm not interested in this particular subject, having a ban is bothering me very much. I feel like it's a bad mark on my record as a Misplaced Pages editor. Please take a look at my previous work to judge my work on Misplaced Pages.

I will avoid writing on the subject altogether. I will avoid breaching BLP rules in the future. I ask, in good faith, to have the ban lifted. I'm willing to comply with any demands that will help me have the ban lifted.

Note: Initially I didn't really understand how topic bans work. I thought topic bans technically block users from making any changes. That's why I made this test edit. At the time I didn't know this would constitute a breach of the ban. I thought I wouldn't be able to save this edit because I believed I had been technically blocked from making any changes on this topic. I apologize for this mistake.

I'm sorry if my statements were not very specific.

I perfectly understand why I have been topic banned. I repeatedly violated BLP rules, even though I was warned multiple times. Therefore I believe the ban was well deserved.
I want to appeal the ban because I see it as a bad mark on my record.
I have no motivation to edit on this particular subject in the future. However, I will avoid breaking rules while editing BLP articles in the future.

Thank you. Nataev (talk) 22:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I apologize to everyone, especially you, Nomoskedasticity. I'm determined not to get involved in such topics ever again. By now I understand that breaking BLP rules is a serious matter. I hope you will understand my concerns and help me get the ban lifted. Thanks, Nataev (talk) 21:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Salvio, the reason I kept writing even after I decided to withdraw was the continued responses of Goldblum. He just couldn't stop mentioning me and attacking me in his comments. That's why I felt obliged to respond. In fact if you take a look at his latest comments, he's now attacking others. See this. He's gonna fight tooth and nail to whitewash himself. I used to believe Misplaced Pages could be neutral. If you think about it, Misplaced Pages is for volunteers. You guys think you're in a position to discourage people from contributing. Well, so be it. I bet you can't find a single person, not one, who can write on the topics I can. Anyhow, I'm tired of admins' conceited, biased, and impartial comments. I'm leaving. Nataev (talk) 09:31, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Salvio giuliano

My problem is that Nataev repeatedly declared he intended to withdraw from the discussion, but then failed to so, continuing to attack Goldblum – examples: 1, 2, 3; here he writes "I wish I could be left out of this. I leave it to them to decide where the article is biased or not.", but ten minutes later he writes this.

Had Nataev not continued to attack Goldblum in spite of his stated intention to ignore the scholar, I'd have ignored the thread, but since he continued, I felt a topic ban was necessary to stop disruption to the project.

In general, I usually support lifting a restriction, if the user in question undertakes to refrain from the behaviour which caused the sanction to be imposed in the first place; in this case, however, considering, as I've already said, that Nataev repeatedly told he'd stop discussing Goldblum, but kept on posting attacks nonetheless, I don't think it would be wise to accept his appeal. So, I suggest his request is declined. Salvio 09:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Nomoskedasticity

This is the ANI discussion where Nataev made repeated BLP violations against the subject of an article. Nataev might be bothered by having a topic ban on record, but it was richly deserved and there's no reason at all to lift it; his repeated declarations that he is "not interested in this subject" are belied by his repeated posts about it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Iselilja

I don't know much about Nataev, as I first became aware of him when I became aware of the Amiram Goldblum article (which I watchlisted). Nataev's comment on Goldblum was obviously troubling (re:BLP), so I understand why the topic ban was placed. However, taken a look at the rest of Nataev's history here, I get the impression that he is a serious, no-drama user who has made valuable contributions. The Goldblum affair appears to be untypical, and my impression is that Nataev now just want to go back to no-drama constructive editing (or leave). There is a negative psychological effect of having a topic ban registered which I think should not be overlooked. Showing a bit of clemency, respect and trust even to people who have got themselves in trouble often gives better results - on Misplaced Pages as in real life - I believe. I would support lifting the topic ban provided Nataev clearly states that he won’t make any edits or comments concerning Goldblum on Misplaced Pages ever again. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 22:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by RolandR

Moved out of threaded discussion

Surely the above comment, too, is a breach of the topic ban. Not a good idea in an appeal against the ban! RolandR (talk) 10:07, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Nataev

Result of the appeal by Nataev

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I would decline the appeal. Nataev does not argue that the appealed sanction was procedurally or materially flawed, and indeed it does not appear to be in error at first glance. The appeal contains only vague generalities about WP:BLP, but does not indicate that Nataev understands how or why their actions violated that policy, and how (if unbanned) they will edit about this subject in a policy-compliant manner (see, by analogy, WP:GAB). We must therefore assume that the ban is (still) necessary to prevent violations of WP:BLP. Sandstein 22:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I am blocking Nataev for this violation of the topic ban (which cannot be excused as part of necessary dispute resolution in the context of this appeal, because the allegation of wrongdoing on the part of Amiram Goldblum was not necessary to argue this appeal). Without objection by uninvolved admins, given the direction this is going in, I think we can close this as declined soon. Sandstein 10:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Closing as declined. If an editor declares he is leaving a topic and then keeps on going back to it we can't take him seriously. This edit where Nataev defends his description of Goldblum as an 'obscure, semi-literate scholar' should not give us much optimism about Nataev's editing of BLP articles. Note that this topic ban was issued by Salvio under WP:BLPSE and not ARBPIA. EdJohnston (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by IranitGreenberg

Appealing user: IranitGreenberg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – IranitGreenberg (talk) 15:03, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: Topic ban from the subject of Palestinian-Israeli conflict, imposed at

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Pluto2012 reported by User:IranitGreenberg (Result: Topic ban of IranitGreenberg)

Administrator imposing the sanction: EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by IranitGreenberg

After Pluto2012 warned me against 1RR violation in an article, I saw he broke the rule himself so I reported him, but somehow I ended topic-banned because of my edits in this article. I already promised not to make controversial editions in that article and to look for consensus before introducing material that could be considered POV-pushing. I'm sorry for what I've done, I won't do it again. I want to have another chance to make valuable contributions to this encyclopedia with patience and dialogue.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 15:03, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

My rationale was already given in the AN3 complaint. The present AE appeal was filed right after my closure of the report at

WP:AN3#User:Pluto2012 reported by User:IranitGreenberg (Result: Topic ban of IranitGreenberg)

In the complaint, six people besides myself commented on IranitGreenberg's editing of I/P articles. For more background, you could also check the discussion at User talk:IranitGreenberg#Complaint about your edits at WP:AN3. EdJohnston (talk) 18:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

@Sandstein: Since May 1 IranitGreenberg has been blocked twice for 1RR violations on I/P articles. The rapid pace of these violations from a relatively new account (April 6) and the tone-deaf attitude they exhibited in the AN3 discussion about POV matters encouraged me to believe that some kind of topic ban was necessary. I won't be upset if others feel that the parameters of the topic ban need to be adjusted, or if anyone perceives a genuine opportunity for negotiation. It is striking that IG has toured through so many hot-button I/P articles in a short time, including Zionism, Israel and the apartheid analogy, Palestinian people and Arab-Israeli conflict. From the beginning IG appeared to be familiar with Misplaced Pages, using stock phrases such as unexplained removal of content. On her first edit she did the usual thing that socks do to avoid a red link for her user page. She reverted other editors 16 times in her first four days on Misplaced Pages. To her credit she has done a couple of self-reverts when others pointed out that she could be sanctioned. EdJohnston (talk) 02:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Pluto2012

IranitGreenberg should learn wikipedia principles out of a topic that seems to touch him too much. In this section, after I informed him of the 4th pillar and the fact that it was a problem he considered openly there were too many pov-pushers on the topic of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he succeeded in accusing directly 6 contributors namely of pov-pushing. He is much more agressive than any of the standards that are accepted on wikipedia and he focuses on the very polemic arena of the I-P conflict. He should try to prove he can collaborate on easier topics before coming back on this one. Pluto2012 (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I deeply regret my accusations. From now one, I'll discuss everything on the talk page before making an edit.--IranitGreenberg (talk) 17:11, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by 1ST7

I think it would be harsh and unfair to ban IranitGreenberg from the topic, as he/she has promised to be more careful and to make the effort to improve. He/she is relatively new to Misplaced Pages and is still working to improve his/her own editing abilities.

It should be noted that most of the other editors who complained against this user are hardly neutral parties in this issue, one of which ranted about their own political views on IG's talk page for no apparent reason.

If anything, let IranitGreenberg be on probation for a few weeks, but give him/her the chance the go through with the promises he/she made and continue to improve. --1ST7 (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

1) The edit you link to is hardly "a rant"

2) ~~In any case, that editor has not been involved in this complaint~~

3) Having commented several times in the discussion under consideration here, stating "I agree with IranitGreenberg", you really shouldn't describe yourself as an "uninvolved editor". RolandR (talk) 22:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

1) It still seems rather rude to write a long and somewhat offensive post about one's own political opinions on someone else's talk page for no apparent reason.

2) That user complained about IranitGreenberg in the Administrators noticeboard and participated in the discussion that ultimately resulted in this ban.

3) I wasn't involved with the discussion that originally led to this ban. --1ST7 (talk) 22:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble by pointing out the issue with the talk page; the purpose of that was only to point out that it's unlikely that everyone who participated in the original discussion was an unbiased commentator. --1ST7 (talk) 00:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Someone who has been involved in articles related to the topic of the ban, as you have at Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, even referring to IranitGreenberg by name on the talk page there, you are not an "uninvolved editor". I'm not questioning your right to comment here, but you should move your comment to before the "uninvolved editors" subheading. Zero 03:07, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

No problem. Should I move this entire conversation there or just my original statement? --1ST7 (talk) 03:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Keeping it all together is best. I did it. Zero 05:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Bbb23

Just a brief statement for the moment to partly address Sandstein's request to Ed. Misplaced Pages believes in escalating sanctions, e.g., a 24-hour block for one's first edit war, a 72-hour block for one's second battle, etc. In Iranit's case, the topic ban represents an escalating sanction as previous sanctions have failed to stop the disruption. Iranit has been blocked by two different admins in this month. Both were arbtiration enforcement blocks for edit warring in the area of the topic ban, I-P articles. His last block expired on May 12. Since that time, here are some examples of his edits (please bear in mind I know very little about the subject matter):

I have to stop now. I've only gotten as far as May 12, and there are lots more edits, but I have to go eat dinner. Perhaps someone else can add more diffs to assist Sandstein.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:17, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by IranitGreenberg

Statement by Keithbob

While I see value in IG's admission of wrong doing and apology I do not think that it is grounds for a reversal of an AN discussion where there was a clear, strong consensus for a topic ban. IG would do well to collaborate constructively in other areas and then make her appeal after some months. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:52, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Glrx

A topic ban is appropriate. I was a bit concerned that EdJohnson suggested a 3-month ban and Bbb23 suggested 6-months, but the resulting ban was indefinite with 6 months between reviews. There may be good cause for the extension. After Bbb23's comments, IG suggested that strong PoV editors are needed to counter other strong PoV editors; WP wants neither extreme. In addition, IG promised to not add controversial material, but Dlv999 points out a subsequent-to-the-promise edit that needlessly injects "Israelite kingdom" in an article on Palestinian people. That edit colors the apology and whether IG can be more careful with edits; maybe IG doesn't recognize controversial edits; maybe IG wants to be close to the line. In the above statement, IG is mystified about the boomerang, but I would expect IG to understand why. I welcome the apology, but it doesn't explain why it happened or why it will change. Glrx (talk) 19:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: No qualms about parameters now. Glrx (talk) 03:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

I don't see a reason to lift the ban. Further, I'd be curious to know what other account(s) they've edited under. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by IranitGreenberg

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

EdJohnston, it appears that you topic-banned IranitGreenberg for non-neutral editing. That is a valid reason for a topic ban, but it's not easy for me to find the evidence on the basis of which you imposed the ban. In the AN3 discussion, I find this edit of 17 May 2013, which does appear non-neutral, in that the personal history of the presiding officer has no apparent relation to the topic. Is there other recent evidence that you took into consideration? Sandstein 19:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. While can't speak to the plausibility of the sockpuppetry concerns (that would need a WP:SPI), an examination of the general pattern of editing by IranitGreenberg reveals that they are a single-purpose account entirely dedicated to making changes in favor of the position of one particular side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Such a pattern of editing violates WP:NPOV. On that basis, the topic ban is appropriate (or at least defensible enough that interfering with the exercise of a collegue's discretion is not warranted), and I would decline the appeal. Sandstein 15:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with Sandstein, that the topic ban is appropriate in this case of Non-Neutral Point of View Editing, and recommend that this appeal be closed as such. SirFozzie (talk) 05:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

D.Lazard

Consensus is that this report is not actionable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Request concerning D.Lazard User who is submitting this request for enforcement Mathsci (talk) 07:00, 21 May 2013 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested D.Lazard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy to be enforced WP:ARBR&I, motion concerning disruption by sockpuppets of Echigo mole Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it off-topic statement posted here after trolling by Echigo mole ipsock , advised by Sandstein contests block even after unblock declined by The Bushranger and warnings from Anthony Bradbury contests block when Echigo sock makes second unblock request declined by Anthony Bradbury with explanation on D.Lazard's talk page, which D.Lazard rejects Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) Warned in several places, most recently on his user talk page Additional comments by editor filing complaint This is an unusual request for AE. It was precipitated by D.Lazard's tendentious manner of dealing with a long term community banned wikihounder. This seems to be the best place to sort it out, since it has not worked elsewhere. I started creating significant amounts of new content in mathematical articles related to Jordan algebras, a specialist graduate-level topic not much touched on wikipedia. Echigo mole socks have recently been created that have caused disruption around that specific topic and on WikiProject Mathematics. The most recent socks have included One cubed loop (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Clanclub (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Algebraic Jordanian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Hyperbaric oxygen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Boodlepounce (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Scrim in sin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Castello Orsini-Odescalchi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Ultra snozbarg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Tautological tau (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (added Mathsci (talk) 10:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)) Gongfermor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (added Mathsci (talk) 10:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)) as well as various ipsocks, most notably 125.71.207.194 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 92.40.206.158 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). These have already been reported at SPI, sometimes with a CU request, or at the WikiProject for open proxies when relevant. All have been blocked and all have edited similarly, with the usual tell-tale signs in their use of British English and their low levels of competence in mathematics. All the editing has been in coordination and some has spilled over into the latest WP:ARBR&I related sockpuppetry by Captain Occam (Akuri). D.Lazard has interrupted the previous unrelated AE appeal after trolling by the first IP sock above. He has picked out one of the socks Hyperbaric oxygen, with no discernible difference in editing patterns from the others, and repeatdely attempted to enable that sockpuppet. He has lobbied several times on their user talk page during two unblock requests both of which have been refused. He has been informed that the unblock requests were part of a stunt involving simutaneous unblock requests by Boodlepounce (denied) and the dormant previously blocked sock Ultra snozbarg (also denied). D.Lazard has refused to take into consideration the WP:LTA and the simultaneous coordinated socking. Since several administrators have handled events around Hyperbaric oxygen (Deskana, NativeForeigner, Anthony Bradbury, The Bushranger and Future Perfect at Sunrise), please could he now receive some kind of mild warning not to act as an enabler/apologist for a community banned wikihounder per the arbcom motion above? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 07:00, 21 May 2013 (UTC) D.Lazard's command of English is unfortunately an impediment when it comes to determining sockpuppetry by Echigo mole. According to the autobiography he created on wikipedia, Jordan operator algebras lie completely outside his real-life mathematical expertise. A recent edit here on the WikiProject Mathematics noticeboard was ill-advised. D.Lazard advertised this report there. The request was about his own conduct w.r.t. blatant sockpuppets of a highly disruptive banned editor. His posting there was a misuse of the WikiProject Mathematics noticeboard for CANVASSING against a long-term mathematics editor. Why is he doing this when the sockpuppetry is so blatant? A Quest For Knowledge comes here with unclean hands. A while back on WP:ANI he drew attention to himself by initiating a thread which was essentially a gratuitous personal attack on me. He started a second thread after that with the interesting header "I request that I be blocked", AQFK wrote, "I refuse to be treated like crap. Can someone please block me? I do not wish to participate in this project any more." That was on 26 March not on 1 April. But AQFK should know as well as anybody else that if he's cried "wolf" once and been found out, he doesn't get a second chance. No matter how much alphabet soup he spits out. Mathsci (talk) 06:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Discussion concerning D.Lazard Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by D.Lazard Mathsci request deserves an answer at two levels. Immediate level: Mathsci asserts that I have violated the sanction concerning Echigo mole. IMO, this is wrong. Let us analyze the links to my edits that Mathsci provides My post here ( if the numbering does not change): I apologize that it was a mistake, being off topic where it was posted. But, otherwise, I confirm everything that I have written there. In any case, I do not see any relation with WP:ARBR&I motion. is a comment to the admin who should examine a unblock request by Hyperbaric oxygen. In this post, as well as in all the other posts provided by Mathsci, I precise that I agree with the ban of the sockpuppets, but that, as far as I know, the identification of Hyperbaric oxygen as a sockpuppet relies only on Mathsci allegations, which, IMHO, need further investigation. is an answer to Anthony Bradbury who has warned me about supporting banned users. I answered that I do not support banned users but that I contest the identification of Hyperbaric oxygen as a sockpuppet. The three other links (, and ) are answers to Mathsci's disruptive posts in which he attacks my above comments (sometimes, with personal attacks), like if these posts were addressed to him (I call disruptive these Mathsci's posts, because the administrators to whom they were addressed are perfectly able to answer themselves, if needed). To conclude on Hyperbaric oxygen,, he never did any disruptive edit (except, after bloking, using a IP connexion for asking help to other editors); good faith has never been credited to him, and he had the bad chance to have edited articles in an area of mathematics that Matsci considers as owned by him (see below). Higher level: In what precedes, I have implicitly accused Mathsci to gaming the system against me and Hyperbaric oxygen. We are not the only target of this kind of action. In fact, as soon as some new user edits some article in the area of Jordan algebra that he consider as owned by him, he accuses this user to be a sockpuppet of Echigo mole. If some established user, who can not been suspected of sockpuppetry, edits his articles or disagree with him on talk pages, he uses against him flames, threats, personal attacks and authoritative arguments (like " I am among the main content contributors to mathematics articles on wikipedia" , This behavior has pushed a good mathematics editor (User: Deltahedron) to retire from WP . As there are too few good mathematics editors in WP, this is a significant loss for WP:WikiProject Mathematics. This disruptive behavior in Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mathematics is the origin of my interest in Mathsci activity About me: First of all, I apologize for my bad English, which is sufficient for editing mathematics articles on WP, but is hardly sufficient for this kind of discussion. Secondly, as my username is my real name, I may say that I am a retired specialist of computer algebra (internationally well known in this area) and of the related aspects of algebra. Thus my main activity on WP consists in editing the related articles and more generally to participate to WP:WikiProject Mathematics. Since three years, I have made over 3400 edits in 649 different pages, almost all related to mathematics, no one related to R&I, with very few reverts . Statement by Johnuniq I have noticed the good-faith interventions by D.Lazard, but have not had time to try talking to them about the issue. This is one of those unfortunate cases where an editor takes the side of the underdog, perhaps (mistakenly) seeing themselves as sticking up for someone being bitten by an aggressive article owner. However, any editor with experience in this area quickly recognizes that the situation is exactly as Mathsci has explained above. A complication is that the Arbcom motion mentioned as the "Sanction or remedy to be enforced" is applicable only because Mathsci is an "editor associated with the R&I topic". It would not be helpful to spend time discussing whether that is "fair", or whether we can be "sure" that the trolling socks really are trolling socks. Instead, admins experienced in AE would know that the best way to help the encyclopedia would be to have this matter quickly resolved with a firm directive that WP:DENY must be applied, and there must be no more encouragement of the banned user. Unfortunately all this excitement means that whatever happens, the banned user will cause more trouble in the next few weeks. Johnuniq (talk) 12:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by A Quest for Knowledge I'm confused as to what the violation is supposed to be. MathSci's first diff does show D.Lazard posting an off-topic statement to this forum. While MathSci is correct, this was apparently D.Lazard's first and only post to RfE. D.Lazard may not have realized that this was inappropriate. Since we're supposed to assume good faith and not bite the newbies (well, newbie to this forum), this was probably an honest mistake. D.Lazard didn't try to add it back or dispute this on their talk page. The other diffs show D.Lazard disagreeing over a block. We don't sanction editors for simply disagreeing about something. If we did, there wouldn't be many of us left to edit Misplaced Pages. The sanction or remedy to be enforced that MathSci links to, Motion (on restoring reverted edits 3), doesn't seem to apply: D.Lazard didn't restore any reverted edit made by a banned editor (or if they did, it's not in the evidence presented in this request). A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC) Second Statement by A Quest for Knowledge There seems to be near universal agreement that this RfE is meritless. As I have pointed out previously in other related RfEs, I am concerned about how quickly MathSci is to attack other editors without merit. This RfE is just the latest example. According to the original ArbCom case, MathSci "has engaged in incivility and personal attacks in text, and in edit summaries; once went so far as to accuse one editor of being a "holocaust denier"; routinely threatens other editors with blocks, and has made other, veiled threats. His editing of articles and their talk pages has been unduly aggressive and combative...," ArbCom's finding was passed unanimously (8 to 0) without a single detention. While I have great respect for the AE process and the AE admins who volunteer their time to help settle these disputes, I really do feel this is one of those areas where we have failed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC) It's true that I had MathSci and me once had a negative encounter. (For the record, I did not label my statement as "uninvolved" for this very reason, and my opinion would be the same regardless.) In any case, I'm not sure how this invalidates ArbCom's findings, why that excuses this meritless RfE or justifies MathSci's continued battleground mentality. Six months ago, I stated on this board: "I've been watching this sorry mess for the last few months with dismay, and this constant disruption needs to end. Sadly, this RfE is another example of Mathsci's battleground conduct. I don't know if this is best handled at AE or by ArbCom, but I don't see how this is going to end without a topic ban for Mathsci and an extension of the 1 way interaction bans to both ways. ... Before rushing through this proposal, some careful consideration should be given to the fact that Mathsci's battleground conduct extends beyond AE. So while limiting Mathsci's ability to file RfE is a step in the right direction, it does nothing to address the disruption caused outside of AE. Quite frankly, the reason why we're back here at AE again, is AE's inability to solve the problem." While I have great respect overall for AE and the admins who attempt to resolve such difficult disputes, this is one of those cases where AE has failed. As I've said previously, we're going to keep seeing this problem again and again until something concrete is done about it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Rschwieb This complaint is baseless. Here, Mathsci mischaracterizes D.Lazard as an enabler of a sockpuppeteer: yet D.Lazard made it plain on his talkpage that sockpuppeteers should be punished, and that he is concerned that these accusations and summary judgements are made by a single editor (Mathsci). D.Lazard's only action was to question Mathsci's judgement. Mathsci does not distinguish (or cannot distinguish) between a challenger of his judgement and a sockpuppet enabler. I think this litigation is just an inappropriate reaction to that challenge. I know D.Lazard behaves constructively, reasonably and deferentially in all cases I have worked with him. He is also probably not very familiar with the Echigo mole case, and possibly has underestimated the perpetrator. There is no impediment to punishing the Echigo mole case here: there is just a desire to make sure the punishment reaches legitimate targets. I have seen Mathsci, on the other hand, wield whatever authority or seniority he thinks he has as a blunt object, and that leads me to believe this action against D.Lazard is just an unfortunate spasm. I am led to believe that Mathsci is capable of pursuading D.Lazard, and I know that D.Lazard can be convinced with reason. Here is how the situation looks to me: There is an Echigo mole bogeyman. The mole is "evasive" and "hard to detect" but yet Mathsci pounces upon them immediately as "obvious socks." At first glance, the crusade is one-man: anyone marked for condemnation by Mathsci must be blocked. Certainly, the mole must be blocked: the real question is who determines who gets blocked?. It would certainly set me more at ease if I knew how many people are dedicated to identifying the mole's puppets. These are my personal observations: D.Lazard is free to disown any part that don't match his own. Rschwieb (talk) 13:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by Maschen (uninvolved) Yes, uninvolved, but so what?? I agree the complaint is baseless and pointless. D.Lazard simply acts in good faith - something Mathsci seems to have little or none of. Instead, he (Mathsci) makes bitter remarks to other editors such as here and here, even Deltahedron's page like this, then denies his personal attack. Even so he's OK to boast in everyone's face that he's "the major mathematical contributor of WP". Although it's certainly a positive contribution to WP that he adds advanced material - is this hypocrisy to be covered up? Deltahedron and D. Lazard also contribute positively (or at least Deltahedron did, before he was discouraged away). So there is no reason for AE on D.Lazard. Thanks. M∧Ŝcħε И_τlk 22:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC) Statement by JBL For a user who allegedly wants to spend his or her time writing math articles, MathSci sure manages to spend a lot of it attacking perfectly reasonable contributors like Deltahedron and D. Lazard. The complaint is obviously frivilous, petty, and unpleasant; MathSci should stop wasting other contributors' time. --JBL (talk) 23:30, 21 May 2013 (UTC) Result concerning D.Lazard This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. I don't think that this request is actionable. As mentioned in a statement above, the remedy whose enforcement is requested is about reverting edits of sockpuppets, which does not apply to the edits by D.Lazard at issue. In general, while D.Lazard may be mistaken to object to the blocks of alleged sockpuppets, such objections are not, in and of themselves, disruptive, and therefore they are not sanctionable. However, D.Lazard, I advise you not to unnecessarily complicate the work of blocking admins by questioning their blocks without good cause; normally it is up to the blocked users themselves to appeal the block in one of the various available venues if they believe that the block is mistaken. If you continue to argue in favor of blocked users whose blocks are otherwise uncontroversial, it is possible that an administrator may conclude that you are acting as a meatpuppet of the blocked user(s). As to the concerns raised by you with respect to Mathsci's editing in the topic area of mathematics, these cannot be addressed in this venue because they are beyond the scope of the arbitration case referenced here. They need to be resolved through the normal dispute resolution process. Sandstein 14:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC) Good points. I agree with this summary and would suggest we close the report along these lines. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:32, 21 May 2013 (UTC) Generally agree, but I disagree that an administrator should not question blocks.. we give administrators a lot of leeway with blocks, but the flip side of that is that an administrator must always be prepared to discuss/defend their actions. As for Mathsci's editing in mathematics, that does not fall under the existing arbitration case and would need to go through DR seperately. SirFozzie (talk) 05:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Consensus is that this report is not actionable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning D.Lazard

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Mathsci (talk) 07:00, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: D.Lazard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBR&I, motion concerning disruption by sockpuppets of Echigo mole

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

off-topic statement posted here after trolling by Echigo mole ipsock , advised by Sandstein
contests block even after unblock declined by The Bushranger and warnings from Anthony Bradbury
contests block when Echigo sock makes second unblock request declined by Anthony Bradbury with explanation on D.Lazard's talk page, which D.Lazard rejects

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warned in several places, most recently on his user talk page

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This is an unusual request for AE. It was precipitated by D.Lazard's tendentious manner of dealing with a long term community banned wikihounder. This seems to be the best place to sort it out, since it has not worked elsewhere.

I started creating significant amounts of new content in mathematical articles related to Jordan algebras, a specialist graduate-level topic not much touched on wikipedia. Echigo mole socks have recently been created that have caused disruption around that specific topic and on WikiProject Mathematics. The most recent socks have included

One cubed loop (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Clanclub (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Algebraic Jordanian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hyperbaric oxygen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Boodlepounce (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Scrim in sin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Castello Orsini-Odescalchi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ultra snozbarg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Tautological tau (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (added Mathsci (talk) 10:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC))
Gongfermor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (added Mathsci (talk) 10:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC))

as well as various ipsocks, most notably

125.71.207.194 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
92.40.206.158 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

These have already been reported at SPI, sometimes with a CU request, or at the WikiProject for open proxies when relevant. All have been blocked and all have edited similarly, with the usual tell-tale signs in their use of British English and their low levels of competence in mathematics. All the editing has been in coordination and some has spilled over into the latest WP:ARBR&I related sockpuppetry by Captain Occam (Akuri). D.Lazard has interrupted the previous unrelated AE appeal after trolling by the first IP sock above. He has picked out one of the socks Hyperbaric oxygen, with no discernible difference in editing patterns from the others, and repeatdely attempted to enable that sockpuppet. He has lobbied several times on their user talk page during two unblock requests both of which have been refused. He has been informed that the unblock requests were part of a stunt involving simutaneous unblock requests by Boodlepounce (denied) and the dormant previously blocked sock Ultra snozbarg (also denied). D.Lazard has refused to take into consideration the WP:LTA and the simultaneous coordinated socking. Since several administrators have handled events around Hyperbaric oxygen (Deskana, NativeForeigner, Anthony Bradbury, The Bushranger and Future Perfect at Sunrise), please could he now receive some kind of mild warning not to act as an enabler/apologist for a community banned wikihounder per the arbcom motion above? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 07:00, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

D.Lazard's command of English is unfortunately an impediment when it comes to determining sockpuppetry by Echigo mole. According to the autobiography he created on wikipedia, Jordan operator algebras lie completely outside his real-life mathematical expertise. A recent edit here on the WikiProject Mathematics noticeboard was ill-advised. D.Lazard advertised this report there. The request was about his own conduct w.r.t. blatant sockpuppets of a highly disruptive banned editor. His posting there was a misuse of the WikiProject Mathematics noticeboard for CANVASSING against a long-term mathematics editor. Why is he doing this when the sockpuppetry is so blatant?

A Quest For Knowledge comes here with unclean hands. A while back on WP:ANI he drew attention to himself by initiating a thread which was essentially a gratuitous personal attack on me. He started a second thread after that with the interesting header "I request that I be blocked", AQFK wrote, "I refuse to be treated like crap. Can someone please block me? I do not wish to participate in this project any more." That was on 26 March not on 1 April. But AQFK should know as well as anybody else that if he's cried "wolf" once and been found out, he doesn't get a second chance. No matter how much alphabet soup he spits out. Mathsci (talk) 06:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning D.Lazard

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by D.Lazard

Mathsci request deserves an answer at two levels.

Immediate level: Mathsci asserts that I have violated the sanction concerning Echigo mole. IMO, this is wrong. Let us analyze the links to my edits that Mathsci provides

My post here ( if the numbering does not change): I apologize that it was a mistake, being off topic where it was posted. But, otherwise, I confirm everything that I have written there. In any case, I do not see any relation with WP:ARBR&I motion.
is a comment to the admin who should examine a unblock request by Hyperbaric oxygen. In this post, as well as in all the other posts provided by Mathsci, I precise that I agree with the ban of the sockpuppets, but that, as far as I know, the identification of Hyperbaric oxygen as a sockpuppet relies only on Mathsci allegations, which, IMHO, need further investigation.
is an answer to Anthony Bradbury who has warned me about supporting banned users. I answered that I do not support banned users but that I contest the identification of Hyperbaric oxygen as a sockpuppet.
The three other links (, and ) are answers to Mathsci's disruptive posts in which he attacks my above comments (sometimes, with personal attacks), like if these posts were addressed to him (I call disruptive these Mathsci's posts, because the administrators to whom they were addressed are perfectly able to answer themselves, if needed).

To conclude on Hyperbaric oxygen,, he never did any disruptive edit (except, after bloking, using a IP connexion for asking help to other editors); good faith has never been credited to him, and he had the bad chance to have edited articles in an area of mathematics that Matsci considers as owned by him (see below).

Higher level: In what precedes, I have implicitly accused Mathsci to gaming the system against me and Hyperbaric oxygen. We are not the only target of this kind of action. In fact, as soon as some new user edits some article in the area of Jordan algebra that he consider as owned by him, he accuses this user to be a sockpuppet of Echigo mole. If some established user, who can not been suspected of sockpuppetry, edits his articles or disagree with him on talk pages, he uses against him flames, threats, personal attacks and authoritative arguments (like " I am among the main content contributors to mathematics articles on wikipedia" ,

This behavior has pushed a good mathematics editor (User: Deltahedron) to retire from WP . As there are too few good mathematics editors in WP, this is a significant loss for WP:WikiProject Mathematics. This disruptive behavior in Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mathematics is the origin of my interest in Mathsci activity

About me: First of all, I apologize for my bad English, which is sufficient for editing mathematics articles on WP, but is hardly sufficient for this kind of discussion. Secondly, as my username is my real name, I may say that I am a retired specialist of computer algebra (internationally well known in this area) and of the related aspects of algebra. Thus my main activity on WP consists in editing the related articles and more generally to participate to WP:WikiProject Mathematics. Since three years, I have made over 3400 edits in 649 different pages, almost all related to mathematics, no one related to R&I, with very few reverts .

Statement by Johnuniq

I have noticed the good-faith interventions by D.Lazard, but have not had time to try talking to them about the issue. This is one of those unfortunate cases where an editor takes the side of the underdog, perhaps (mistakenly) seeing themselves as sticking up for someone being bitten by an aggressive article owner. However, any editor with experience in this area quickly recognizes that the situation is exactly as Mathsci has explained above.

A complication is that the Arbcom motion mentioned as the "Sanction or remedy to be enforced" is applicable only because Mathsci is an "editor associated with the R&I topic". It would not be helpful to spend time discussing whether that is "fair", or whether we can be "sure" that the trolling socks really are trolling socks. Instead, admins experienced in AE would know that the best way to help the encyclopedia would be to have this matter quickly resolved with a firm directive that WP:DENY must be applied, and there must be no more encouragement of the banned user. Unfortunately all this excitement means that whatever happens, the banned user will cause more trouble in the next few weeks. Johnuniq (talk) 12:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by A Quest for Knowledge

I'm confused as to what the violation is supposed to be. MathSci's first diff does show D.Lazard posting an off-topic statement to this forum. While MathSci is correct, this was apparently D.Lazard's first and only post to RfE. D.Lazard may not have realized that this was inappropriate. Since we're supposed to assume good faith and not bite the newbies (well, newbie to this forum), this was probably an honest mistake. D.Lazard didn't try to add it back or dispute this on their talk page. The other diffs show D.Lazard disagreeing over a block. We don't sanction editors for simply disagreeing about something. If we did, there wouldn't be many of us left to edit Misplaced Pages. The sanction or remedy to be enforced that MathSci links to, Motion (on restoring reverted edits 3), doesn't seem to apply: D.Lazard didn't restore any reverted edit made by a banned editor (or if they did, it's not in the evidence presented in this request). A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Second Statement by A Quest for Knowledge

There seems to be near universal agreement that this RfE is meritless. As I have pointed out previously in other related RfEs, I am concerned about how quickly MathSci is to attack other editors without merit. This RfE is just the latest example. According to the original ArbCom case, MathSci "has engaged in incivility and personal attacks in text, and in edit summaries; once went so far as to accuse one editor of being a "holocaust denier"; routinely threatens other editors with blocks, and has made other, veiled threats. His editing of articles and their talk pages has been unduly aggressive and combative...," ArbCom's finding was passed unanimously (8 to 0) without a single detention. While I have great respect for the AE process and the AE admins who volunteer their time to help settle these disputes, I really do feel this is one of those areas where we have failed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

It's true that I had MathSci and me once had a negative encounter. (For the record, I did not label my statement as "uninvolved" for this very reason, and my opinion would be the same regardless.) In any case, I'm not sure how this invalidates ArbCom's findings, why that excuses this meritless RfE or justifies MathSci's continued battleground mentality.

Six months ago, I stated on this board:

"I've been watching this sorry mess for the last few months with dismay, and this constant disruption needs to end. Sadly, this RfE is another example of Mathsci's battleground conduct. I don't know if this is best handled at AE or by ArbCom, but I don't see how this is going to end without a topic ban for Mathsci and an extension of the 1 way interaction bans to both ways. ... Before rushing through this proposal, some careful consideration should be given to the fact that Mathsci's battleground conduct extends beyond AE. So while limiting Mathsci's ability to file RfE is a step in the right direction, it does nothing to address the disruption caused outside of AE. Quite frankly, the reason why we're back here at AE again, is AE's inability to solve the problem."

While I have great respect overall for AE and the admins who attempt to resolve such difficult disputes, this is one of those cases where AE has failed. As I've said previously, we're going to keep seeing this problem again and again until something concrete is done about it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Rschwieb

This complaint is baseless. Here, Mathsci mischaracterizes D.Lazard as an enabler of a sockpuppeteer: yet D.Lazard made it plain on his talkpage that sockpuppeteers should be punished, and that he is concerned that these accusations and summary judgements are made by a single editor (Mathsci). D.Lazard's only action was to question Mathsci's judgement. Mathsci does not distinguish (or cannot distinguish) between a challenger of his judgement and a sockpuppet enabler. I think this litigation is just an inappropriate reaction to that challenge.

I know D.Lazard behaves constructively, reasonably and deferentially in all cases I have worked with him. He is also probably not very familiar with the Echigo mole case, and possibly has underestimated the perpetrator. There is no impediment to punishing the Echigo mole case here: there is just a desire to make sure the punishment reaches legitimate targets. I have seen Mathsci, on the other hand, wield whatever authority or seniority he thinks he has as a blunt object, and that leads me to believe this action against D.Lazard is just an unfortunate spasm. I am led to believe that Mathsci is capable of pursuading D.Lazard, and I know that D.Lazard can be convinced with reason.

Here is how the situation looks to me: There is an Echigo mole bogeyman. The mole is "evasive" and "hard to detect" but yet Mathsci pounces upon them immediately as "obvious socks." At first glance, the crusade is one-man: anyone marked for condemnation by Mathsci must be blocked. Certainly, the mole must be blocked: the real question is who determines who gets blocked?. It would certainly set me more at ease if I knew how many people are dedicated to identifying the mole's puppets.

These are my personal observations: D.Lazard is free to disown any part that don't match his own. Rschwieb (talk) 13:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Maschen (uninvolved)

Yes, uninvolved, but so what?? I agree the complaint is baseless and pointless.

D.Lazard simply acts in good faith - something Mathsci seems to have little or none of. Instead, he (Mathsci) makes bitter remarks to other editors such as here and here, even Deltahedron's page like this, then denies his personal attack. Even so he's OK to boast in everyone's face that he's "the major mathematical contributor of WP". Although it's certainly a positive contribution to WP that he adds advanced material - is this hypocrisy to be covered up?

Deltahedron and D. Lazard also contribute positively (or at least Deltahedron did, before he was discouraged away). So there is no reason for AE on D.Lazard. Thanks. M∧Ŝcħε И_τlk 22:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Statement by JBL

For a user who allegedly wants to spend his or her time writing math articles, MathSci sure manages to spend a lot of it attacking perfectly reasonable contributors like Deltahedron and D. Lazard. The complaint is obviously frivilous, petty, and unpleasant; MathSci should stop wasting other contributors' time. --JBL (talk) 23:30, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Result concerning D.Lazard

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I don't think that this request is actionable. As mentioned in a statement above, the remedy whose enforcement is requested is about reverting edits of sockpuppets, which does not apply to the edits by D.Lazard at issue. In general, while D.Lazard may be mistaken to object to the blocks of alleged sockpuppets, such objections are not, in and of themselves, disruptive, and therefore they are not sanctionable. However, D.Lazard, I advise you not to unnecessarily complicate the work of blocking admins by questioning their blocks without good cause; normally it is up to the blocked users themselves to appeal the block in one of the various available venues if they believe that the block is mistaken. If you continue to argue in favor of blocked users whose blocks are otherwise uncontroversial, it is possible that an administrator may conclude that you are acting as a meatpuppet of the blocked user(s). As to the concerns raised by you with respect to Mathsci's editing in the topic area of mathematics, these cannot be addressed in this venue because they are beyond the scope of the arbitration case referenced here. They need to be resolved through the normal dispute resolution process. Sandstein 14:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Good points. I agree with this summary and would suggest we close the report along these lines. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:32, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Generally agree, but I disagree that an administrator should not question blocks.. we give administrators a lot of leeway with blocks, but the flip side of that is that an administrator must always be prepared to discuss/defend their actions. As for Mathsci's editing in mathematics, that does not fall under the existing arbitration case and would need to go through DR seperately. SirFozzie (talk) 05:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Ceco31

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Ceco31

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Ceco31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBMAC discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

renewed edit-warring on Bulgaria
edit-warring on Attack (political party)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

warned (and blocked) on 6 February by Lord Roem (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Ceco31 was blocked for 3 months and warned under Arbmac for permanent edit-warring on Bulgaria-related articles back in February (after this AE report). This month, barely returned from his block, he has immediately resumed the same type of edit-warring, on several articles, partly with the exact same content reverts (e.g. this edit repeats this from immediately before the block).

At this point I'd suggest an indef block or topic-ban from all Bulgaria-related articles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Update: Note that even after this report was filed, Ceco31 has continued edit-warring, breaking 3RR on Bulgarians with this additional revert, and also continuing reverting on Attack (political party), with this edit that also introduced a blatant piece of source falsification (presenting a source that merely showed that the party sits in the middle of the parliamentary assembly as if it supported the claim that their political position was "center" rather than "far right"). Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:20, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Ceco31

Statement by Ceco31

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Ceco31

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

This appears actionable to me; as the edit warring is sustained and warnings have duly been given. I would favour an indefinite topic ban. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 13:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Considering the continued edit-warring and misrepresentation of sources after this report, I'm imposing another 3-month block and an indefinite topic ban. Sandstein 15:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)