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User:Msoamu

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Msoamu (talk · contribs) has had quite a few ANI cases filed against them recently. They've literally just come off a 2-week block for large-scale, long-term sockpuppetry, and immediately returned to their editing style of pushing their own POV, whilst accusing other users of doing the same, ignoring consensus and making allegations about other users' religious stances. Diffs (note these are all post-block):

• - restoring a whole bunch of unsourced information, which had been removed for that reason, citing POV pushing by User:MezzoMezzo as the reason for their reversion.
• - allegations about editors religious stances, allegations of POV pushing, failures to abide by consensus.
• - various unsourced comments, more allegations of POV pushing.
• - restoration of unsourced information, despite two seperate editors (one whom I've not seen in any of the disputes) removing it for being unsourced, again initially citing POV-pushing.

I think it's time we either gave Msoamu an indefinite topic ban on editing and referring to all religious articles, broadly construed, or a simple indefinite block. There's no point giving any short-term topic bans/blocks, because this is a 6 year old issue, and previous blocks haven't achieved anything. User:Qwyrxian, MezzoMezzo, User:GorgeCustersSabre and various other editors are probably all equally as fed up of Msoamu's actions as I am. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:18, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban I've seen this user at AN/I enough times to know the amount of pot-stirring and disruption this user causes. Action at this time is not only warranted, but necessary. It's time for the project to get back on track. Herr Kommisar 20:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict), reply to Lukeno94. I would support a topic ban at minimum. I haven't been as involved in this as some others, but I did try to help out on Barelvi some time ago, and found it an incredibly frustrating experience. Dealing with Msoamu and socks made it too tempting for me to break the 3RR, and I ended up taking the relevant articles off my watchlist to save my sanity. I think we have a serious case of failure or refusal to get the point here, with perhaps a sprinkling of competence issues. (Quote from the Competence is required essay, "Some people's personal opinions are so strongly held that they get in the way of editing neutrally or collaboratively.") Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 21:01, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment, the content he was edit warring in was also a copyvio from here which he must have known as he added the references. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Topic Ban especially not "indefinitely"..i also don't mind mediating in the article talk pages..msoamu can perhaps agree to being more "talk page" active instead of reverting or editing..if the points in contention can be brought up clearly i don't see why there won't be a solution. Baboon43 (talk) 05:34, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear All you have to look into this case with a very neutral perspective.I am an Sufi Sunni wikipedian who has contributed a lot to this wikipedia by his Articles and sourced content.There are issues with me and User:MezzoMezzo.He has hundreds of time found deleting content from Sufi related articles and sometimes nominated many pages for deletion unsuccessfully.I am not saying he has particular leanings but his love for some movements ],Madkhalism and Wahabism and his insisting on adding criticism for Barelvi page must be noted after deep study.He has accepted it in his own words when he created Article named Madkhalism.Quote Madkhalism is a strain of Islamist thought within the larger Salafist movement.

Read this interesting comment on his Page by a fellow Salafi editor who has witnessed that MezzoMezzo is a Salafi.

• salafi's at wikipedia

assalamu alaykum brother alhamdulillah i see you are upon the manhaj of the salaf us salih insha'allah and i wondered if there is any way for all the salafi brothers to some how network on here inshallah so we are able to work together to ensure all of the information on wikipedia is correct. if you are interested please get in touch with me.jazak allaju khayran. assalamuy alaykum wa rahmah tullahi wa barakatuhu Dawud.Beale (talk) 18:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC) (taken from his talk Page)

• His hate for Sufi oriented Articles nominated several articles many time for deletion at a single time read here and
• He Suggested a Number of Article of Scholars of other movements Sufism
• for speedy deletion ,
• ,
• ,
• ,
• *Mohra shareef here
• Mohammad Qasim Sadiq here

• Conclusion-Barelvis or Sufi are not considered Muslims by these Salafi,Wahabis,Ahle Hadith people.This thinking and motivation has prevailed world over to kill and murder them.Now this hidden motivation is also here on Misplaced Pages. It has been complained by many editors that Wahabi editors are editing with an objective.Islamic articles are not so easy for non Muslim Wikipedians to understand where agenda has been inserted or where the content has been removed with an objective.If a Salafi will continue editing Sufi or Barelvi Articles , he will do what MezzoMezzo is doing regularly ,removing content and nominating them in a sequence with out genuine reasons for deletions.
• Wahabi interference is reality at Barelvi page
• Request-
• This behavior establishes his editing pattern which has harassed many editors in the past forcing them to leave Misplaced Pages editing.For his behavior he has been warned many times by multiple editors.
• His friend Lukeno was also warned for edit warring at Barelvi page.

No one of them is neutral though they are trying to be.It is very essential to stop MezzoMezzo from editing Barelvi Articles and Sufi pages for the sake of neutrality.*This ANI is motivated and opened up by his close friend Lukeno who shares good relation with him.Lukeno never edit or participate in discussions every time he came to revert articles about which he knew very less.He is just a right hand of MezzoMezzo. After my Ban How much he got active on this page and removed points according to his POV. I have edited with references and have also left comments on all talk pages where I have edited after my Ban.It should be noted that after my absence a lot of Sufi Barelvi topics were edited by MezzoMezzo and large chunk of content was removed like thisMarkaz Articleeven though he could have taggged it for ref or for source but due to hate for these articles he always just removed content directly.Today itself ,I have added this relevant info after good research and also tried to add sources for my various editing. At last I request neutral and un involved admins to understand the crux of the problem and don't pay heed to motivated biased ANI of Lukeno.Any action on me will leave a free and open field for MezzoMezzo on Islamic pages related to Sufism and Barelvi movement to add and remove content from these pages thus making them non neutral and compromising Misplaced Pages's position.A situation very difficult to understand though it will look normal to non Muslim editors.Msoamu (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I just find this stuff more amusing than anything. Hopefully, I can get this out of the way here and not deal with it again, though as a Wikipedian I find it sad that I have to speak about my personal beliefs here.

• I am not a Salafi. I told Msoamu and his sock account Shabiha many times to stop saying that. I don't hate Salafis or Sufis but on a personal level, I want nothing to do with movements.
• I don't love Wahhabism. User:Toddy1 also protects that page from Msoamu's POV-pushing with sock accounts, yet as far as I know Toddy isn't even Muslim. Will we accuse Toddy of loving Wahhabism too?
• I dislike Madkhalism intensely. The fact that I wrote that article and have avoided POV-pushing or bashing the movement, I feel, is another sign that I am here at Misplaced Pages to provide information only. If I really wanted to push a negative POV, it would be on Madkhalism, not Sufism or Barelvi. Yet I haven't.
• I seriously don't care about Barelvis. It's a Muslim religious movement restricted to South Asian and I have no desire at all to ever take a vacation in South Asia, nor do I have any close friends from that part of the world. I learned about what Barelvis are through Misplaced Pages, I don't care about them and the only reason I've dealt with the article for six years is simply because I hate POV-pushing. And I have never, ever seen POV pushing to the level I have at that article.
• A Salafi Wikipedian thought I was Salafi. On social media, Salafis have also called me a Sufi. A Deobandi called me a Wahhabi. An Ash'ari declared me to be an apostate infidel. In one instance, a Salafi called me a Shi'ite and Shi'ites have called me an infidel more times than I can count. The problem isn't movements or me, it's zealous, extreme people and my inability to keep my mouth shut when I see someone saying bigoted things.

The root of this problem is Msoamu's POV. He only edits articles related to Barelvism and only edits Misplaced Pages in order to push an ultra-positive POV about the movement. Because of that, he assumes that anybody who edits an article about a religious movement must be a part of said movement, otherwise they wouldn't take interest. His accusation of me being a Madkhali is clear when I have no shyness saying I really, really, really don't like Madkhalism and on a personal level don't like being around Madkhalists. (Biased? No. As Stephen Jay Gould said, objectivity is being fair despite bias, not denying one's own bias. I don't like Madkhalism, but my edits to the article have been fair.) I created that article because mainstream publishers took interest in the movement in 2012, and noone else had written an article yet. That is all.

Given that Msoamu's POV is so incredibly strong, and he has made multiple sockpuppet accounts in order to push that POV, I see no way around a topic ban for all articles relating to religion. The guy can't even wrap his head around the fact that someone can edit articles about religious figures and groups without holding strong opinions. That alone is enough, though the sockpuppets to push POV and the number of ANI threads he is involved in bolster the case as well. Baboon, I thank you for your attempt to mediate, but you're not the first to try and if we don't slap a topic ban on Msoamu, you won't be the last. If Msoamu slips up again and creates more sock accounts to get around the ban, then perhaps an indefinite block would be in order. But if we just start with a topic ban, then nobody can say that we didn't try. MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:24, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - Msoamu's statements here should only strengthen my case. Edit warring has happened from all parties, that is correct, but note in this report that I haven't cited edit warring by you, Msoamu, as a reason for this block. And User:Baboon43, Msoamu can end up being quite disruptive on talk pages - note that at least one of my provided diffs is a talk page diff. They make no effort to get a consensus for their edits, they just blindly wander in and nuke things, simply because MezzoMezzo wrote them. MezzoMezzo has not "harassed" many editors, and I'm fairly sure the majority of those editors you refer to are your blocked socks anyway. What is also concerning is we have an editor of 6 years plus who STILL doesn't know the difference between WP:CSD (speedy deletion) and WP:AFD (articles for deletion) - I've barely seen ANY cases where MezzoMezzo has CSDed any of these articles. And you still seem incapable of realizing that MezzoMezzo only either inserts sourced information, or removes unsourced (or poorly sourced) information, whilst you do the exact opposite. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:04, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Also, I'm not a Muslim, and definitely not a Wahabi/Deobandi/Sufi/whatever. In fact, the only one of these I'd heard of prior to joining this dispute were the Wahabi sect. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:05, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

WTF? The last block wasn't indefinite? With a drawer of socks, all of whom do the same POV pushing? Block now, block indefinitely, if socking continues ban. The diffs provided by Lukeno above are ridiculous to be the first things after being unblocked for edit warring and POV pushing. I don't have time right now to decide if I'm WP:INVOLVED (though I did block before), but please, someone take care of this and don't waste any more of any neutral, civil editor's time. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:53, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• I did query why it wasn't an indef block, but if I ever got an answer, I didn't spot it. It was just a 2-week one. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like it was explained, albeit a few days after I asked: "This is the first time he's been blocked for socking, and we generally give second chances. Reaper Eternal (talk) 12:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)". My apologies to Reaper Eternal for suggesting that they had ignored my comment. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Please could he/she spend a few months editing non-religious articles, so he/she could learn to edit with a neutral point of view. A three month topic ban would be a way of achieving that.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:38, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I see consensus is shifting towards non indefinite ban..what will that achieve? it will just pick up again after a few months..if msaomu accepts my proposal, i believe that will be a better approach for him, the article & other editors involved. as far as the talk page incivility thats a minor issue..if there's more discussion it should ease the major disruption which is edit-warring. ill also offer to mentor mr msoamu. Baboon43 (talk) 00:30, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Consensus isn't shifting toward a non-indefinite ban; one person suggested that. Another suggested an indefinite block. Several others suggested a permanent topic ban. We need more feedback before a definite community consensus can be reached. As for easing the disruption...won't happen. Were this the first, second or even third incident, yeah we would need to try. It's been six years of edit warring against various consensuses through sockpuppets, and right after another block he started edit warring immediately. That's in addition to the refusal to get to the point and the competence issues. Nobody can say that we didn't try everything we could, multiple times. MezzoMezzo (talk) 02:25, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I've already said this, and any short-term topic ban is simply not enough/not going to work. It either needs to be long-term (a year) or indefinite, because this is a 6 year old dispute, and Msoamu is clearly going to wander straight back in and be disruptive again. 95% of what this user has done is disruptive, be it on talk pages or elsewhere - their constant accusations against other editors, their POV-pushing edits, their edit-warring, sockpuppetry (which I'm willing to believe is now in the past, at least for now)... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:22, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello Lukeno94! In writing this comment you deleted one of the comments by another editor in the section above this. I don't know how that happened, but you should restore it. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 09:01, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

If he/she is given a "second chance", then it needs to come with strings. One way of doing that would be three month topic ban. I have no objection to a longer topic ban such as: six months, one year or two years. I am sure that the "second chance" needs to come with strings - if it does not, then the difficult editor will just continue as before. (I am not arguing against a permanent anything. I am only saying what I think needs to be done if he/she is given a "second chance".)--Toddy1 (talk) 07:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Formal proposal

I propose that Msoamu is topic-banned from making edits anywhere on Misplaced Pages relating to religion, broadly construed, for a period of six months. For clarification, broadly construed means anything even slightly related to religion--this includes articles about religious leaders, groups affiliated with religious standpoints, history topics if the point being edited is related to religion, etc; it also includes other namespaces such as article and user talk pages. The following conditions are also applied:

1. If Msoamu violates the topic ban, he will be given escalating blocks, starting with 2 week blocks, with the six month topic ban being reset to the beginning of each such block.
2. If Msoamu socks to get around the topic ban (including clearly editing as an IP), he will given escalating blocks, and the topic ban will become permanent.
3. If Msoamu edits appropriately for the next six months, but continues the same disruptive behavior after the expiration of the topic ban, any admin may reinstate a new topic ban to be of at least one year.
4. Msoamu is strongly encouraged to obtain a mentor, ideally while the ban is still in place, so that Msoamu may be guided to editing that conforms with Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines.

• Support as proposer. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:43, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support as the best way forward. Darkness Shines (talk) 09:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support because if it works then great, and if it doesn't work then nobody can say that every option wasn't tried. MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban in principle though I think the inclusive nature defines "broadly construed" in overly broad terms.--My76Strat (talk) 10:15, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support I find the use of sockpuppets to be the most deleterious form of POV pushing because it basically destroys the notion of collegial consensus by allowing one user with a lot of time and no hobbies to pour a dozen fake arguments to derail something that probably woudln't even be controversial without such buffoonery. I think we should really consider strengthening the mentorship provision. We shouldn't force on one him by any means but if someone is willing to volunteer we can get this person to reach out to him and take the intiaitive so perhaps he will be serious about it. DrPhen (talk) 15:29, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support - I want longer, but I'm clearly not gonna get that. So I'll agree with this as well. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support - This is a way of giving him/her a "second chance" and I hope that he/she uses it to discover how to edit less disruptively.--Toddy1 (talk) 19:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support. A fair way forward. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 12:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, we're still holding steady at 100%, including a number of completely uninvolved editors. I'd prefer that someone else close this, but absent that, I'll still consider this enacted and make the formal notification myself if no other admin does. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Jonathan Yip not over?

Recently, I noticed IP 12.53.78.125 making unconstructive edits at airport articles on my watchlist, such as this edit made to San Francisco International Airport, which adding false statistics was a reoccurring pattern of vandalism and disruptive editing that Jonathan Yip had. And as you can see, a suspected sock (which was just blocked). Unfortunatley for the IP , constructive edits have to be reverted, since it is made by a suspected sock of a banned user. Is there any way to see if there are still socks out there (both IP and users, since he had abusively used multitudes of both). Thanks for all of the help. Sincerely, WorldTraveller101 00:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Jonathan Yip socks should be blocked on site and all edits reverted. Nothing good comes from this socker. If a shared ip gets blocked, its no different than a school block. The integrity of Misplaced Pages is more important than a few ip edits. JOJ 01:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

True, but my main concern is that this might receal that there could still be more socks. Other than that, I agree. Thanks. WorldTraveller101 01:21, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This really belongs at SPI, so that the issues can be documented for next time. --Rschen7754 08:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

SPI has been done to death on this character. This is mostly about enforcement. Best thing to do is to just get an admins attention on the matter and the suspected ip or account will get blocked. Preferably an admin familiar with of history of JY.--JOJ 13:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Recent socks of Jonathan Yip have been mixing in some needed/constructive edits. I don't think we should do blanket reverts without regard. HkCaGu (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

HkCaGu, this is true. However, per policy, even constructive edits of banned editors and there confirmed or suspected socks have to be reverted. If needed, we undo the edits per policy and we can add it ourselves, so it does fit policy, while improving the articles. Thanks, HkCaGu. WorldTraveller101 21:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello, nice to meet you. I'm WorldTraveller101 and welcome to ANI. I regret to inform you that User:TheSyndromeOfaDown is a newly emerged suspected sock (confirmed pending Checkuser). Similar editions as JY and the IP, what's new? It's been mentioned at his SPI case, after the user requested a unblock. Anyway, good bye and have a lovely day. Gracias. WorldTraveller101 01:22, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

What to do with BLP urgent issues?

I've posted to The WP:BLP board and WP:RFPP for protection of Wade Robson (in recent news for suing Michael Jackson's estate, accusing him of sexual abuse). This page has been vandalized repeatedly for going on three weeks without protection. Maybe I'm antsy after only a few hours, but I feel biographies should get quicker attention than what is recommended on the talk page templates. Ultra Venia (talk) 01:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

IMO, BLPs are among the most sensitive articles on Misplaced Pages, and we do not as much to protect the subjects as we ought. Take this as a request for people to get more active there. Collect (talk) 01:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm pretty easy on protecting BLPS (which are best requested at WP:RFPP, btw) but the last vandalism was 5 days ago. Currently, RFPP isn't particularly backlogged. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
• I agree with Dennis. Drmies (talk) 02:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Protection was denied for no good reason I can see, and vandalism continues. Collect, you are right, apparently at Misplaced Pages, the right of IPs to vandalize is greater than the right of individuals not to be attacked on their own biography page. It's a sloppy and unprofessional approach to encyclopedia-building. Ultra Venia (talk) 03:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:Gaming the system by User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz

I have uploaded non-free image File:ShashiKapoor.jpg.jpg for article Shashi Kapoor. The image is tagged as disputed. I have given my reason on File talk:ShashiKapoor.jpg.jpg and also posted general question regarding such circumstance here. But reported saw only one general reply by user, took decision about disputed image and started reverting my edits on article Shashi Kapoor. I reatedly contested that deadline is 19 May and admins have not taken decision. But above user kept overriding admin powers. I was caught in 3RR, above user reported me for edit war, I gave my reason but I was blocked for 48 hrs. After almost 4 days, above user has again removed image from the article. All non-free orphaned images are deleted no matter whether they fulfill nfcc or not. and it looks above user is creating another reason to delete image.

In short, above user is overriding admins powers and is taking unilateral decisions and is gaming the system by citing MCQ which had only one reply at that time and which was long befor 19 May deadline. neo (talk) 06:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Neo. simply refuses to accept that a nonfree image may not be used to illustrate a BLP absent extremely unusual circumstances, especially when a free image is available. They were blocked for edit warring over the image just a few days ago . Discussion at Misplaced Pages:Media_copyright_questions#Review_of_non-free_image_for_future_uploads_and_certainty has gone uniformly against their position. If this user, still adding back nonfree images to at least two BLPs (also at Meenakshi Seshadri, doesn't accept the clear language of WP:NFC#UUI, the rejection of his position at MCQ, the removal of the images by multiple editors, the legitimacy of their first block over these images, or the clear requirements of NFC policy and the overwhelming consensus supporting it, I'm afraid summary action has become necessary. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 10:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Only one user had replied on MCQ at 13:14 18 May. You treated it, and still treat it, as 'consensus' and started edit war. I am again and again repeatedly saying that image is tagged disputed and admin decision is awaited. If I have uploaded image, I must link it to article because orphaned non-free images are deleted whether they fulfill nfcc or not. Unfortunately no admin is listening and reported user is on rampage. He just reverted my edits. I request admins to make it clear whether users should link non-free images after upload or wait for permission of some admin. I am being flamed and dragged in edit war. neo (talk) 11:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Not an admin but, as a content issue, it's not really an admin decision. HW is correct, if there's a suitable free image it should be used in lieu of a non-free one. NE Ent 11:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

There is a free image, we shouldn't be using a non-free image when one is available. GB fan 11:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

(1) Free image of the subject is taken during his old age retirement period and ill health, sitting on wheelchair, visibly looking ill. Reader can't associate this visual with contents which describe his work which he did during his youth(1961-1985). Linking bad image of the subject is vandalising the article. (2) As per policy, non-free image should not be orphaned until decision or deletion. I am just doing that. But reported user has somehow his own policy to push. neo (talk) 11:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

What policy says that we need to keep a non-free image in an article until a decision has been made? GB fan 12:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've provided a source that states that a key to his success was his "boyish good looks" in the current discussion. There are a massive number of such sources that use words like "heartthrob" or otherwise make it plain his looks were key to his success (also make it plain he was a good actor). That _should_ end the discussion per NFCC which specifically allows a non-free image in that case. Hobit (talk) 13:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Lord, no, that's a grossly inappropriate interpretation of policy. Just because a source (particularly an opinion piece) comments on a subject's physical appearance isn't a justification for overriding NFC limits. Otherwise we might just as well scrap NFC as it applies to performers. It's not like "boyish good looks" is a description that can't be reasonably understood without an image, after all. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 13:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
• I noticed this discussion because it was just mentioned on the file talk page. The uploader claims that he can't edit discussions if they are longer than 5000 characters, so I'm including an extra section header below, hoping that this will make it possible for him to return to the discussion.

I would like to point out that 19 May is not a deadline. That was just the earliest date on which the image could be deleted per WP:NFCC#1. Sometimes, deletion is backlogged, and Category:Replaceable non-free use Misplaced Pages files shows that there currently is a huge backlog. If a deletion category is backlogged, then it only means that the decision will be made a little bit later. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Finally Admin User:closedmouth has executed image citing nfcc 1. My image was nfcc 1 compliant. Showing the image of old-ill subject in the article is another form of blatant vandalism. Such images do not illustrate article and do not serve encyclopedic purpose. General reader simply can't associate such visuals with contents of the article. I protest this Admin vandalism. neo (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• Throwing around "vandalism" like that is a fantastic way of ruining any case you have, when neither thing you describe as vandalism is, in fact, vandalism. If there is a free image, no matter what it is, then a non-free one cannot be used. There is no grey area, it's a concrete policy. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Your comment - If there is a free image, no matter what it is, then a non-free one cannot be used - is clear in the minds of admins but not in print in WP:NFCC which confuse users. If there is consensus, why not write in print? But arguing before admins is frustrating and useless. Compared to 2007 user traffic to wikipedia has gone down. It will go down further. Bye. neo (talk) 18:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This has been a long-time problem, does a terrible quality or inappropriate free image automatically trump a significantly better non-free image? My feeling is that it should not, but NFCC-absolutists insist that it does, without (as neo points out) any really specific grounds for that belief in policy. If anything, BLP policy would seem to imply that presenting the best possible image of a living person is preferable to presenting one which shows the subject in decline or well after his or her prime - that seems akin to including negative (but true) facts, which we often exclude on the basis of both WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLP. We would, after all, generally choose the best presentation of the subject between two free images, and not deliberately misrepresent the subject. To my mind, that's much more important to our status as an encyclopedia than adhering to an ultra-strict interpretation of NFCC, especially considering that NFCC is already significantly more restrictive than it needs to be according to US fair-use practice. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree with you and I think it is also worth emphasizing that the policy is No free equivalent. "Equivalent" is somewhat vague, but in the context of this BLP, the free and non-free images are of the same person, but they are by no means equivalent in relevant ways (e.g., one is of an older person and the other of a younger person). So, I would say that there is a very good justification for the position that there is no free equivalent in this and many other cases.--I am One of Many (talk) 22:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

BMK is correct. The truth about fair use in the US is ... no one knows. The law is so vague it's pretty much impossible to know whether a given use is fair use until the copyright owner notices, sues and a court makes a ruling ... and the penalty is economic (civil) not criminal. As a website owner WMF is well protected by DMCA so fears that failure to be hyper-vigilant about copyright is endangering the project are vastly overblown. NE Ent 09:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Although DMCA may protect the Wikimedia Foundation, individual contributors may be sued by copyright holders, although this typically would be based on the law in which the contributors are residing, which may not say the same thing as US law. However, Misplaced Pages also needs to make it possible for other people to reuse Misplaced Pages content, and if Misplaced Pages chooses to use content which doesn't satisfy the legal definition of fair use, then no one else can use Misplaced Pages content within the United States. It is currently illegal to use Misplaced Pages content outside the United States due to other copyright laws saying other things.

I suspect that this section may have grown bigger than 5000 characters again, so I'm adding a new header below in case the uploader has problems participating in the discussion. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

Ohwrotcod

Can someone help walk a new editor through some issues around deletion policy and more? Earlier today, 41.132.117.15 appeared on the scene and soon took some offence at some of my recent edits: see User_talk:DonQuixote#Possible_vendetta.3F (which implies the editor isn't that new, but there are no edits prior to today from this IP address, so I don't know who they were previously).

I've been mainly working through one category of articles relating to Dr Who. 41.132.117.15 felt this was a "vendetta" and started working through a different category of articles that s/he felt I was favouring (there is some rivalry in Dr Who fandom between the two categories of releases), tagging them all as being of questionable notability, and then moving on to re-directs and PRODs, as you can see at Special:Contributions/41.132.117.15. Said user then created an account as User:Ohwrotcod (I think some automatic system saw them as adding too many external links and had blocked them?) and continued.

In particular, as Ohwrotcod, s/he PROD'd several articles. I removed the PROD tags as I feel they are wrong. Ohwrotcod re-added, I re-removed. Ohwrotcod started calling me a "persistent vandal": . I have sought to explain at User talk:Ohwrotcod how PRODs work, but I kinda get the feeling that Ohwrotcod isn't going to listen to me.

I'm too involved here to guide this person and I'm going to run into WP:3RR issues. Many of Ohwrotcod's edits are entirely fair; others may reflect more emotion than Misplaced Pages policy. Some are clearly wrong under policy, but that appears to be out of ignorance. Could someone help &/or monitor them, and also could someone tidy up all the contested PRODs? Bondegezou (talk) 16:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and there's now this: Bondegezou (talk) 17:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Articles with contested PRODs are Cold Fusion (Doctor Who), All-Consuming Fire, Toy Soldiers (Doctor Who), Just War (Doctor Who) and Return of the Living Dad, I think. Bondegezou (talk) 17:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello again. There are more edits by Ohwrotcod today that push AGF boundaries: and . Ohwrotcod has now started two AfDs: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Return of the Living Dad and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cold Fusion (Doctor Who). I have sought to improve both articles, but Ohwrotcod is now edit-warring Cold Fusion (Doctor Who). At least one edit there by Ohwrotcod feels very odd. I added a citation to the article and Ohwrotcod tagged it "Not in citation given" despite the citation very clearly supporting the sentence. (Sentence added: "The story deliberately contrasts the fifth Doctors and the characterisation of the seventh Doctors in the Virgin New Adventures." From citation: "FTN: And of course you did one of the few multi Doctor novels. Why did you pick the fifth and seventh Doctors? LP: They represented the starkest contrast, I think – a young, fresh Doctor versus a cynical, seasoned one.") Bondegezou (talk) 12:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Ohwrotcod/41.132.117.15 is also editing as 41.133.1.200. Bondegezou (talk) 12:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Based on this report and the one at WP:ANEW, I've blocked the named account for 72 hours and the IP for one week.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

User: 109.77.xx.xx and the indefinite article

An IP who uses addresses in the range 109.77.xx.xx has been changing a to an before acronyms (and occasionally the other way around) which I and several other users have reverted. Discussion has been initiated at User talk:109.77.131.0 and User talk:109.77.143.236 but they have not replied and possibly have not even seen it, nor are they likely to see it anytime soon if at each logon they use a different IP in the range.

The latest batch was from 109.77.8.128 . I have now attempted to start a discussion at Talk:XMPP#Please discuss changes to the indefinite article, which they may see, but there's no evidence they have yet used any talk page, so again they may not.

Suggestions? Andrewa (talk) 19:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The IP may be related to Mr. Bumble in Dickens' Oliver Twist, who famously said, "...the law is a ass—a idiot!" Perhaps that quote will attract him/her :) Rklear (talk) 19:18, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

They do appear to have had the same teacher. (;->

But seriously, there's no evidence that this is other than good faith. But there is a growing risk that someone will jump on the contributor as a vandal (again in good faith).

Plus, of course, it's a nuisance! Andrewa (talk) 19:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking at your "latest batch" of edits above, I see that Resource Reservation Protocol has been hit 5 times now since the first of the month, twice by IPs in the 93.107.x.x. range. This means that the IP range is wider than first indicated, but it also means that the user is rechecking his/her work. Linking to that talk discussion in the undo edit summaries, if it's done over and over (which it obviously has to be), might get some attention. Rklear (talk) 19:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Maybe a big, loud editnotice? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The edit notice is a good idea I think, and maybe it wouldn't need to be especially big or loud. I'm reading Misplaced Pages:Editnotice which is all new ground to me. It appears to me that I could easily create a suitable notice that appeared to all editors of an affected article, but this does need me to act as an admin as it's in the main namespace, and if there's a policy governing this use of admin powers (apart from responsible commonsense) I haven't yet found it. Are we pioneering here? (Sometimes we need to!)

It may even be worth creating a template to post on articles as they are "hit", see Misplaced Pages:Editnotice#Batch of identical editnotices. But just a notice on one article, say XMPP, would be a good start.

Using a template specific to this incident would allow us to easily identify all articles from which the notice needs to be removed once this issue is resolved. Andrewa (talk) 14:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Awesome suggestion re wikilinking in the edit summaries... I should have thought of that! We'll try it. I've created an anchor at Talk:XMPP#please discuss to make the link a bit more concise.

Good observation also regarding the number of IPs involved, see subsection below on notifications. Andrewa (talk) 14:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• That is Vodaphone, on 109.77.128.0/20 I think. 4096 addresses. I checked a couple of the /24s within that but not all. Some traffic but not tons. Blocking isn't a first resort, but those IPs rotate frequently, so talk page messages aren't much of a help. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I had a quick look at what might be the most recent batch (not sure on that, or even how to watch for them) and the edits have all been reverted already, so I can't do it myself and put the wikilink to Talk:XMPP#please discuss into the edit summary. I'll lurk for a little, hoping to catch one. The edit notice is looking a better idea. Another possibility is to put a heads-up linking to these discussions on the talk pages of editors who do such reverts, and ask them to put the wikilink in their edit summaries the next time they do such a revert.

I've posted some heads-ups on affected article talk pages, pointing here and to the XMPP talk page section. Andrewa (talk) 15:22, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Notification

In view of the number of IPs involved, see above, the presumption that it's a single user, and the fact that notices to the affected IP talk pages so far have produced no response, is it reasonable to abandon future attempts to contact the contributor via IP talk pages? This would arguably be an exception to the edit notice above You must notify any user who is the subject of a discussion. Andrewa (talk) 14:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I may be mistaken, but it appears that most if not all the articles this person is editing are listed in Template:IPstack. If you post on those talk pages, it may serve to alert the reverting editors, at least. Rklear (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Nerfmaster8

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Nerfmaster8 appears to have developed a personal issue with me after an editing conflict on Nerf Blasters, as evidenced in the article's history. Yesterday, he posted his displeasure of my edits on my talk page, but I deleted his post because, quite frankly, it wasn't worth arguing about. He then ranted to me about deleting his post, which I promptly deleted because I simply had nothing to say to him. Nerfmaster8 then went on and complained about me to McGeddon, which forced me to defend myself of these petty accusations and simply tell him to let go of the issue. Unfortunately, despite having already warned him of inciting a personal attack and advising him to read Misplaced Pages:Etiquette, he refused to let go of the issue and proceeded to create a lengthy section about me on Talk:N-Strike, on the grounds that I posted "leaked" information on Nerf products that Hasbro had asked several fan blogs to take down. Even though I acknowledged the fact that I posted such information here, he still continues to hold a grudge on me, claiming I have zero knowledge of Nerf products. I've tried to be very civil about this, but he left me no choice but to file this report on him. - Areaseven (talk) 01:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

What outcome are you looking for? Best way to proceed is to continue as you have been doing -- ignore the personal comments and just focus on article content. NE Ent 01:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

All I want out of this issue is an apology from Nerfmaster8 for falsely accusing me of having a lack of knowledge and to delete every single post targeted toward me, plain and simple. - Areaseven (talk) 03:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

If they chose to voluntarily make an apology that'd be great but forced ones don't really make things better. I've changed the section title on Talk:N-Strike to a more neutral title. NE Ent 09:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

i never accused you of adding those leaks until you mentioned it in this post, my main problem which i did clearly explain on the N-Strike talk page was over your reverts of my edits that were justified. When you reverted my edits, you gave me the impression that you did not know the most recent information regarding this topic which is why i brought up that you had a lack of knowledge on the topic at hand.Nerfmaster8 (talk) 02:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The problem here is that the title you used on your discussion clearly shows that you have a problem with me and not the content. And the other problem I see here is that you are obviously taking my edits too seriously, even after the number of times I told you to let it go. So for the last time, let it go. - Areaseven (talk) 03:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

well my problem was with you, your revert actions in particular. you got offended over the fact that you did not have the knowledge to understand my justified edits which caused this escalation. I had perfectly good reason to split the n-strike/n-strike elite list and to distinguish the two different lists of dart tag. yet you decided to start an edit conflict over me adding the years to dart tag as shown in the history. that's what prompted me to have a problem with you as it does not seem like you have enough knowledge to comprehend what i was doing. if you don't believe me on any of this you can take a look at nerf nation or take a look at the archive of nerf wiki's news templates. and again you are still trying to blame me for not letting this go when the problem arose required prompt discussion. you ignored my attempts at discussion and continued to act the way you are.

by the way, most of the information that anyone who is engaged with the nerf community knows for a fact that most reliable information comes mostly from the fan blogs i listed on the n-strike talk page along with nerf nation (who rare now posts announcements due to the leaks). the leaks posted before were reported by urban taggers and sgnerf.Nerfmaster8 (talk) 15:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

All right, let's settle this once and for all. What do you hope to achieve out of this argument? I've already posted my expectations above, so let's hear yours. - Areaseven (talk) 17:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

fair enough, all i ask is that before you go reverting my edits to go and double check what i know. there are a variety of sources that can confirm my edits. that was the main issue, the leaks only arose due to the mention of sources. i also ask that you realize that most information does not come from official announcements by Hasbro, this has transferred over to the blogs who are given permission to release received press releases. that is the main way on how Hasbro communicates-there are official stock images that are posted but usually only when needed by the PR on Nerf Nation.Nerfmaster8 (talk) 18:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

This is a simple content dispute. Tell you what, since sources and information are the root of this problem, how about I try to assist by digging up references and doing a quick 3O on the matter then. Blogs are typically not reliable sources; a new editor to Misplaced Pages will not know our complex and confusing policies and guidelines. Let's not go biting the newbies or escalating tensions on either side. This problem is relatively easy to fix at this early stage. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

In looking at the problem, it seems that the information about the "leaked" information on an upcoming product is the key part of the dispute. Per WP:NEWSORG, "The reporting of rumors has a limited encyclopedic value, although in some instances verifiable information about rumors may be appropriate. Misplaced Pages is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors." Which sadly isn't covered by the obvious search of WP:LEAK. The information that was released seems fairly credible, but the sourcing is not, even the blogs are concerned about it being fake. Until it gets official RS, this shouldn't be on Misplaced Pages. Though such instances with Apple products were widely publicized and carried through main stream media, a Nerf blaster covered by only blogs is not capable of meeting inclusion requirements. And secondly, those pages need more citations. A lot of it screams WP:OR. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

That's precisely what I've been planning to do with the articles. Unfortunately, time constraints have prevented me from getting proper sources over the past few months. - Areaseven (talk) 04:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

User:QM400032’s signature contains no links

Despite requests and reminders by myself and others (), User:QM400032 has not restored the userpage links to his custom signature (, ), in violation of WP:SIGLINK. I’m not sure if this is the most appropriate place to take the issue after trying the user’s Talk page; if it isn’t, I’ll apologize and move it wherever it fits. —Frungi (talk) 02:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• This is the right place. They need to insure their signature does include a link to either their talk page, user page or contribs page per WP:Signature, which is a real guideline and states: "Signatures must include at least one direct internal link to your user page, user talk page, or contributions page" It doesn't say "may" or "should", it it says "must", which is a rare word in policy and guideline and used for a reason. Maybe they didn't know, or accidentally messed up the links, but refusing to do so will get someone blocked, so hopefully they will show up here and figure out how to fix it so it does comply with our guidelines. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  Just an observation, but I find it interesting that the word "must" is used on something "...that editors should attempt to follow..." :) Rockfang (talk) 03:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  Yeah, I was wondering about that too—why isn’t that requirement on a policy page? But obviously this isn’t the place for that. —Frungi (talk) 03:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  The template uses 'should' as it is generic template and there are very few policies with 'must' on Misplaced Pages; WP:SIGLINK is one of them. WP:NOTBURO cuts both ways, just because the template on top says 'should' doesn't overrule the actual 'must' of the policy. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  I've been particularly concerned with this editor lately as a lot of the templates that they are making have been taken to AFD. Also, there's a userbox he has that says he has been blocked before, but his block log is clean. --Rschen7754 04:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  I'm most concerned about this because of one minor issue. I keep getting edit-conflicted by SineBot whenever I try to immediately reply to a question from him. I know that is a minor gripe, but it's still pretty annoying. TCN7JM 04:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  I've left a message on their talk page that spells it out. If they do not fix their signature, we can only assume they are trying to be disruptive and a block should follow suit. Hopefully, that won't be necessary as it seems silly to fight something so obvious within policy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 15:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  I don't know that it's intentionally disruptive. My guess would be would be lack of competence (he doesn't understand what's wrong, and/or how to fix it) based on the sections above that one, like the one where he responds to someone posting a file-permission notice with I don't know how to resolve fair use copyright violation! Could you please show me how? and responding to a bot with I'll get to it as soon as possible. I think he just doesn't grasp everything that's going on. —Scott5114↗ 05:48, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

70.148.147.138 persistent unsourced content

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

70.148.147.138 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Previously blocked for persistently adding unsourced content to Dominican Republic. After block, repeated addition of unsourced content: . Further warned: . Further repeated addition of unsourced content: , . Vague statements about "other sources" or "another study", without citing any, are typical. – Wdchk (talk) 03:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Personal attack by User:Alansohn

On the Red Bank, New Jersey article, I removed this material for reasons that I spelled out in the edit summary. A comment about Red Bank increasingly becoming a high-end shopping mecca was not found in the cited source, nor was the statement about "Broad Street", "Garmany" or "Urban Outfitters". The cited source, which supported only the opening of a Tiffany's, was a press release by Tiffany themselves. This left only a mention of a brewery, supported by a book archived at Google Books, and a what appeared to be a personal fan site. I didn't challenge the reliability of the book, but this raised the question of whether one business merited its own section, and more importantly, whether mentioning individual businesses is even relevant or salient, particularly when there is nothing unique about that business (like whether it's the flagship store or the company's headquarters).

Alansohn reverted the edit, saying in his edit summary "rv removal of sourced content, with some editing". This despite the fact that the source did not mention "Broad Street", "Garmany" or "Urban Outfitters", something Alansohn did nothing to address. For this reason, I again reverted the unsourced material, saying, "Revert. A press release by Tiffany for advertising purposes on WebWire is not an RS, and it doesn't mention "Broad Street", "Garmany" or "Urban Outfitters". That leaves one brewery, which doesn't merit a section."

Alansohn found a source for some of the material, and restored it, leaving out the unsourced information, but did so with the edit summary "rv malicious removal of sourced content, all material that was easily sourced; press release from a top firm meets all requirements of WP:RS, though feel free to replace it".

First of all, whether something is "easily sourced" is irrelevant. The material was not sourced, and it is not my responsibility to source material added by other editors. That I already do so at times (,), despite my already heavy edit workload, is a courtesy, not a requirement, and I'm tired the obnoxious edit summaries in which Alansohn implies otherwise, a practice in which he has been engaging in for some time now.

Second, my edits were based on sincere, good-faith readings of Misplaced Pages policy on my part. They were not motivated in any way by "malice", nor has Alansohn even bothered trying to illustrate how he knows my state of mind. Material that was not sourced was removed, in accordance with WP policy, and he himself omitted quite a bit of it in his most recent restoration of some of it, presumably because he saw that it was not found in the source cited in the article, or even in the new one he found (despite it being so "easily" sourced). If that's the case, then how could removing it have been "malicious"? His comment is a direct violation of WP:AGF and WP:NPA, and is unacceptable. Someone needs to politely inform him of this. Nightscream (talk) 00:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• Seems like Alansohn was well out of line here, but I'd be interested to hear their side of the story as well, to see why they acted like this. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:56, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is rather clear: "Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.... Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step..... If instead you think the material is verifiable, try to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it." I believe that all editors have an obligation under policy to preserve content and I will take all reasonable actions to preserve it as required (see this edit for a recent example) by seeking out possible sources; Nightscream follows a We had to destroy the village to save it approach in which he usually fails to make any attempt to find sources, blindly removes the content and then WP:BITEs newbies with claims of WP:V / WP:NOR that are unjustified in most occasions. In this case, removal of sourced content was even less justified. No one ever challenged the material in the Red Bank, New Jersey article. The material was reliably sourced (note that per WP:SELFPUB, a press release is a reliable source) in addition to other sources in the section. Even after explaining that the material was all reliably sourced and adding additional sources, Nightscream removed the material a second time without justification. The material was then reinserted with additional sources intended to address any possible objection that Nightscream might ever have. Over and done, one would think. Nightscream seems to be upset that sources were added, as has happened many times before in articles we both edit, where Nightscream removes unsourced content and I reinsert it with sources found with trivial ease. See this edit, where Nightscream removed material regarding a proposed Formula One race that was on the front page of every newspaper in the New York City metro area calling it a "WP:V/WP:NOR" violation, while I reinserted the material with appropriate sources (here) minutes later. This process has happened often and it seems to bother Nightscream deeply. Besides, claims of NPA issues coming from someone who as standard procedure berates, belittles and maliciously attacks other editors on a rather personal basis for rather trivial violations of his expectations ("Really? You can't even capitalize a proper noun? Or format the movie in the same way that all the other films above it and below it are?? Or spell it properly? Seriously?", "No one gives a shit about which studio animated it.", just from the past two days and I could provide hundreds more), I would hope that Nightscream would be better able to recognize legitimate criticism of improper removal of sourced content. And I'm not the only person with these concerns with Nightscream and his editing practices. Take a look at User_talk:Nightscream#Dan Brown, where one of many editors complains on his talk page about unjustifiable removal of what he defines as "Original Research", and see User_talk:Nightscream#Your behavior at Talk:A Scause for Applause, SPI for strong criticism of his attacks on other editors. Alansohn (talk) 12:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oyi, this fight again (not you two, but lots of others have gone down this same road). In my experience it is a good idea to remove only material you can't easily confirm. If we deleted every unsourced sentence on Misplaced Pages, we'd have about 10% of the content we have right now. The "challenged or likely to be challenged" part is the key. And you did yourself no favor by referring to a reliable source as not being reliable and deleting material on that basis. That said, if you do feel the material has an issue, you are 100% correct to remove it. And Alan needs to AGF on that. But did you seriously have doubts about material in the press release? If not, why did you remove it? I can see why Alan would get frustrated, but I also understand why you are. If you showed a bit more care and Alan had a bit more patience, things would go a lot smoother... Hobit (talk) 17:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• • Hobit's points are well taken and I do want to apologize to Nightscream for my snarky remark; Frustration may have been an acceptable rationalization at the time but it isn't an appropriate justification. Nightscream and I are inevitably going to overlap on editing a significant number of articles and I hope that we can find a more effective way to work together towards the goal of building an encyclopedia rather than trying to score points. I do appreciate that Nightscream will lean far more towards removal of unsourced content added to these and other articles, but I am more than willing to work in a partnership in which Nightscream tags (rather than removes) and discusses legitimately questionable unsourced / poorly sourced content, while I will be happy to reference sourceable content and to remove content that is irredeemably unsourceable based on my attempts to find decent references. I thought that we had been heading in a more productive direction in recent months since our earlier confrontations and I hope that this "incident" can lead to mutual agreement on a path to work together in reasonably harmonious fashion rather than to escalate a needless conflict. Alansohn (talk) 18:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you have a beer some time, or if that's not practical have a chat offline. It is well worth investing time in getting to know and like people you will meet often, especially if you are likely to disagree much of the time. Guy (Help!) 23:58, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion after un-archiving

I apologize for not having responded earlier before the discussion was archived. The miniscule amount of time we are given before bots archive is astounding. I also apologize for the length of this post, but this problem has being going on for years, and hope that if you truly care about improving this project, that you read it carefully.

It does not matter what Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is clear about, nor does it matter whether I had doubts about the source. If Alan or Hobit want to have a discussion on WP:V, or on my criticism of problem editors or one-off IP editors who can’t write a coherent sentence, then they are free to engage me in a discussion on that topic, provided they do so in good faith and with intellectual honesty and decency. But those are separate discussions.

This discussion is about one thing and one thing alone: Alan’s long-time habit of attacking his critics and those he disagrees with in his edit summaries and elsewhere (including in this very discussion), lying about the editing record, and smearing those he disagrees with by any means necessary, including bringing up past discussions with other editors that do not directly bear any relevance to the one at hand.

First, he compounds his earlier attack on me with similar comments here, when he claims, rather inanely, that I am “upset” and “bothered deeply” when sources are added to articles, when that is the precise sort of thing that I want to see occur in articles. The fact of the matter is, I remove unsourced information and original research from Misplaced Pages every day, and when I do so, I do so rather dispassionately. My removal of the content from the Red Bank article was no less dispassionate, and not motivated by any “malice”, nor does Alan have any basis for arguing otherwise. (Admittedly I have been more critical of editors who exhibit ignorance of grade school writing skills, and while I do criticize this, I don’t make false accusations or claim to know their emotional state.) Note that Alan not only tries to minimize the seriousness of his earlier comment by euphemistically calling it “snarky” (it wasn’t, it was a direct violation of AGF and NPA, and was far more malicious, ironically, than any content removal by me) but that in referring to his “comment” in the singular, he is indicating that he is not also including his comments in this discussion in his “apology”. (Indeed, why would he, when such behavior is his m.o. during ANI discussions?)

Second, he outright lies about the editing record, including his own edits and mine (not the first time he has done this).

He claims, “Even after explaining that the material was all reliably sourced and adding additional sources, Nightscream removed the material a second time without justification.” Alan did not offer any “explanation”. What he did do was simply refer, in passing, to the material as being “sourced” in the edit summary in which he restored all the information, including the portion which was not sourced. In the first place, the mere fact that he asserts something (or even “explains” it) to be true does not make it true. In point of fact, his initial revert did not include any addition of sources; he just reverted my edit. You don’t have to believe me. Just go to the article’s edit history, and compare the version before my removal of the material and after he restored it. If he added more sources to the article, they’d show up in the diff, wouldn’t they? But in fact, they don’t. None of the changes he made included adding more sources. And by reverting my edit, he re-added the unsourced material: Namely, the mention of "Broad Street", "Garmany" or "Urban Outfitters". He eventually made another edit in which he added yet another source, one that did mention Garmany and Broad Street, which I did not revert.

He lied when he claimed that I “blindly remove content”. I think I’ve demonstrated here that I examined both the content and the sources that were cited in order to determine which bits of information were supported by those sources and which weren’t, so unless he is using a definition of “blind” that I’m ignorant of, I think that falsifies this claim fairly clearly. Alan, unfortunately, likes to reuse certain stock tactics and accusations, and one of them is to repeatedly accuse other editors of “blind” reverts. Don’t believe me? Check out this ANI discussion to see how often the word “blind” shows up on his messages. Hell, just count how many times it shows up in his very first message in that discussion. You could practically create a drinking game out of it. (The other editor targeted, User:AdjustShift, denied Alan’s accusation.) Since Alan knows that I read the sources, and that I found that they did not contain some of the material in the passage, this illustrates how he likes to toss accusations around in knee-jerk, indiscriminate fashion, without even giving any thought to what he’s saying.

Third, Alan tries to smear his accusers or opponents by bringing up extraneous past conflicts in which his accusers have been embroiled, apparently in the belief that merely having been involved in numerous conflicts somehow discredits the accuser and falsifies the accusation. This is false. Any editor who has done heavy editing over the course of many years is going to find himself involved in numerous conflicts, especially if he or she is an admin enforcing policy. Bringing up past problems is certainly legitimate if it is directly relevant to the matter at hand, but Alan does not recognize this as a criterion, since he chooses any ol’ editor at random who has had “concerns with my editing practices”. If you want to falsify Accusation X that has been leveled against you, then do it. But bringing up Other Accusation Y against your accuser does not do this. It’s simply employment of the Tu Quoque fallacy. If Alan, or anyone else, wants to start a discussion here about my conduct, then let them. But such a discussion would be separate from this one.

This problem isn’t new

This would not be that big a problem if these behaviors were new. But they’re not. Alan has been troubling the editing community here at least six years, and when one looks through the numerous times he’s been reported here at ANI, ArbCom, etc., one sees an unfortunate pattern. Here are some examples from that pattern:

In this September 2007 ANI discussion, an editor accused Alan of using deliberately misleading edit summaries. The ANI participant who gave the most responses in that discussion, Persian Poet Gal, agreed that Alan was guilty of this, while two other editors, User:Fram and User:Wikipediatrix, observed that this was not a new problem with Alan.

Alan was the subject of a 2007-2008 RfC in which entire lists were compiled showing his personal attacks, AGF violations, questionable summaries, failure to acknowledge his violations and canvassing.

In 2008, the Arbitration Committee placed a one year restriction on Alan for his incivility, personal attacks, violations of AGF, etc.

In this February 2010 ANI discussion, three editors, User:postdlf, User:Good Olfactory and User:Ncmvocalist observe Alan's problem with incivility, failure to adhere to AGF, personal attacks, making his accusers the subject of attacks, and stonewalling. User:Eusebeus concurs with this at a related Wikiquette Assistance discussion that same month.

During a September 2007 ANI discussion, Eusebeus pointed to a number of recurring tendencies on Alan’s part, and I’m quoting Eusebeus here:

1. A tendency to repeat his viewpoint with legalistic reference to policy, regardless of the response of those who disagree with him. This drives many editors to extreme frustration.
2. A tendency to accuse those who disagree with him of making personal attacks.
3. A tendency to insist upon the merits of his viewpoint without regard to a consensus or body of opinion that he disagrees with.
4. A tendency to reinforce his positions with nasty characterisations of those with whom he disagree
5. A tendency to extreme wikilawyering in discussion, often to the point of disrupting the larger debate.

Clearly, this is an ongoing problem with Alan, for which he has previously been seriously disciplined, so it’s unfortunate that once again, those at ANI have refused to take decisive action, as seen by Hobit’s response, in which he talks solely about WP:V, completely failing to address or even acknowledge the problem of Alan’s serial behavior, and Guy’s inane suggestion that we have a beer or chat offline. It reminds me the bit in the comedy show Bill Cosby: Himself, in which one of Cosby’s children steals a toy from a sibling, leading to a fight that awakens Cosby from sleep, and when Cosby smacks both children equally, and the indignant sibling complains that he/she was struck even though he/she was in the right, Cosby responds, “We don’t care about justice! We just want QUIET!” That’s what you guys are doing. (A pity that Lukeno94, who stated that Alan was out of line, but made no response following Alan’s.)

Seriously, why do you people participate here on ANI if you’re so incapable of separating the wheat from the chaff, and simply informing policy violators in no uncertain terms that their disruptive behaviors must cease?

Summary and Conclusion: An Offer for a Resolution

This must stop. Now. Those of you hold yourselves up in a position of authority here, capable of addressing problems here at ANI need to inform Alan, in no uncertain terms, of the following:

• That his viewpoint of WP:V, or any guideline, does not empower him to attack another editor with false accusations, or fabricate imagined emotional states or motivations, and that such behavior should not be minimized with euphemistic labeling like “snarky”.

• That he has lied about his and others’ editing records, and that this behavior is unacceptable, and must cease.

• That when he is accused of wrongdoing, his obligation is to falsify the accusation, and not to respond with ad hominem attacks directed to his accusers, engaging in the Tu Quoque fallacy, or any other type of fallacy.

These resolutions must also be enforced, so that if Alan continues to violate them, that his editing may be revoked. If he does not respond positively to these instructions, then he needs to have his editing privileges taken away from him. Should you refuse to revoke his privileges, or even pursue this matter further, I will be forced to go to the Arbitration Committee to report Alan there, and pursue more a more decisive resolution. (Eventually, I will also be calling for administrator reviews of those of you who have aided and sheltered Alan by refusing to take action to stop his serial abuse, both in regards to this discussion and previous ANI discussions involving Alan, such as the one last July.)

Keep in mind that ArbCom is not ANI. Those at ArbCom tend to get things done. The last time Alan was brought before them, back in 2007, the Arbitration Committee placed a one year restriction on Alan, and since Alan has filled the intervening six years with more of the same violations that led to that restriction in the first place, it would not looking good for him. I will contact the other participants in those RfCs and ANIs to comment. And believe me, smearing his accusers will not improve his chances of coming out of any ArbCom investigation unscathed.

Keep in mind also that the last time I spearheaded an ArbCom intervention regarding a serial policy violator who had been disrupting the site for several years, that policy violator, User:Asgardian, was banned from Misplaced Pages for a year, and eventually indefinitely.

Alan, I want you to know that this is not a threat. It’s simply a statement of my intention. I am no longer going to allow you to attack others or engage in willfully deceitful behavior. I would far prefer not to go to ArbCom, both because you are capable of being a good editor when you want to be, and also because of the amount of time and work that would go into producing an ArbCom case. Although I don’t harbor tremendous hopes that you’ll change at this point, I feel I’m obligated to give you a chance. The three behaviors I have summarized above have been established by virtue of evidence and reason. You can freely acknowledge, without euphemism, logical fallacy or rhetoric, that you have committed those violations repeatedly, acknowledge that this is unacceptable, and that you will categorically cease doing so immediately. In return, I will not pursue this matter further, nor reference it in the future (provided that it does not become necessary in light of a repeat of the same behavior). If you do not do this, and the ANI admins refuse to hold you accountable, I will go to ArbCom. And I don’t think the chances that you will come out of that without a severe blow to your editing privileges are that great.

Please think it over, and let me know what you think. Nightscream (talk) 04:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• I want to look at this (as you asked me to again), but bloody hell, that is waaaaaaaaaaaay too much writing. The chances of anyone reading that page of text is very low, I'm afraid. WP:TLDR does apply, although if I get time, I may attempt to read it. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

A few (much briefer) thoughts and suggestions

ANI is intended to deal with incidents and to do so in a timely fashion, while they are occurring. Nightscream raised an issue regarding his removal of sourced content from the article for Red Bank, New Jersey. Yet after I and other editors addressed the issue and clarified that Nightscream's improper removal of sourced content is the more relevant issue, Nightscream disappeared and refused to discuss this problem. A week later, Nightscream reappears with a legal brief that the U.S. Supreme Court would toss out as too long and incoherent, discussing issues that may or may not have occurred seven or more years ago. Whatever this is, based on what I could gather from his screed, this is not an incident. Nightscream can productively respond to my suggestions to settle this issue one of two ways. He can stop removing sourced content, start attempting to add sources or tag for them as required by WP:V, stop attacking other editors for violating his own manufactured policies, stop tendentiously wikilawyering, stop making personal attacks (see repeated claims of "lying" above) and start trying to build an encyclopedia. Alternatively, I encourage Nightscream to follow through on his threats to take this to Arbcom, where this will go nowhere. Either alternative makes infinitely more sense than addressing an imagined incident where Nightscream has ignored a rather clear and rational offer to settle his dispute in a useful manner. Guy's suggestion makes even more sense now; we should either have a beer together and settle this or all of us should just start drinking. Heavily. Alansohn (talk) 16:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Nightscream raised an issue regarding his removal of sourced content... No, I raised the issue of your personal attacks upon another editor. The fact that you continue to rationalize this behavior with your views of WP:V (further illustrating the insincerity of your supposed "apology" above), would seem to confirm that you are beyond hope, as does your rather self-serving characterization of my "disappearing". No one "disappeared". I simply don't have time to compose posts that require the depth of the one above on any given day, a point I explained above, which you have ignored.

ArbCom it is, then. Nightscream (talk) 06:19, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

User Malizengin and his disruption

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Right when User:Malizengins 24 hour block for edit-warring was finished, he/she immediately returned to the Armenian Genocide page and began edit-warring once again. He/She has reverted at least 4 times in a matter of 2 hours. This page has a 1RR policy and it has not been honored by him/her several times already. He/She first makes his/her additions on to the page and later asks for discussions on the TP for consensus. I am personally fine with discussions, but the user doesn't seem to understand that discussions should take place before massive 1500+ characters worth of additions. I told the user on my TP that this information is not WP:RELEVANT and is nothing but a WP:COATRACK but he has not gave a full response; but that is not important. It is his conduct that is more disruptive. Here are the diffs:
REVERTS AFTER HIS 24 HOUR BLOCK:

• Revert #1
• Revert #2 after additional information was added without consensus (additions for which he was blocked 24 hours for).
• Revert #3 and also another revert of his previous addition.
• Revert #4

I would also like to admins to take a look at the edit-summaries and their very disruptive nature.

Warnings given:1234 Proudbolsahye (talk) 08:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Maunus is using IPs

Although using IPs while still having a valid non-blocked account is okay, I am objecting User:Maunus's this act because of the reasons that i mention now. Maunus is now using IPs 68.9.182.96 and 128.148.231.12. He admits that here and at the SPI case Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/68.9.182.96/Archive. He was recently (17th May 2013) blocked for uncivil behaviour and personal attacks. Previously in May 2011 while the user was admin, he had imposed a self-block for "preempting incivil behavior at multiple takpages". Block log. Now whether the blocks are self imposed or forced by other admins doesn't change the fact that this user makes personal attacks on other editors. As mentioned before, using IPs is valid. But using IPs thus wrongly attributes such personality-wise editing habits. The SPI can not take any action in this case. That's why i am here to note this point and get other admin's opinion and attention. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 08:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

so let me see, your argument is that because I have previously made personal attacks I should be exempt from the rule that allows editors to edit as IPs? Is that even an argument? 68.9.182.96 (talk) 13:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I thought they had declared that they were doing thus, in a similar manner to what I had to do earlier this year? There are some situations where people might find it awkward to log in. - Sitush (talk) 08:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I also said that it is acceptable. But edits done through IPs aren't attributed to the right person. I am not caring about edit counts. I wouldn't even care of any constructive edits if the user himself has opted for not using their account. But non-constructive edits, like may be vandalism, multiple votes and personal attacks, should be attributed to the right person. Such behavioural attributions are helpful. The duck test relies on such behavioural features. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 09:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

That is not what the duck test is about. It is about determining whether two accounts who do not acknowledge they are used by the same editor are in fact operated by the same sockmaster. Since I have acknowledged that I am using those two IPs, and probably will use more of them since they are dynamic the duck test is entirely irrelevant.68.9.182.96 (talk) 13:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

He cannot login in to his account as he has the enforcer enabled, as you linked to the SPI you must know that? He first posted from his place of work and then from another location later, he stated on the talk page that it was him, he has done nothing wrong here and this is pointless. Darkness Shines (talk) 09:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Maunus in the guise of an IP puts a clarify tag here in the article they later revert me without giving any reason only to be reverted by another editor.Later they start to edit war over another section here most importantly they say that we should not revert without giving any edit summary however if you look here they reverted me without any edit summary. The edit war continues where the IP/Maunus also crosses 3RR limit and may be out of frustration they just blank the whole section . All this while the IP user never informed that it was Maunus because if it was informed then they would have been blocked for such disruption. This was very clever tactic by Maunus. Recently Maunus was blocked for incivility and here he calls another editor a joker.-sarvajna (talk) 09:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

He also explained on the talk page why he did it, he has not done anything wrong here and this is as already stated, pointless. Please explain what policies he has violated and maybe you will have something, right now all I see is, "this guy pissed me off". Darkness Shines (talk) 09:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

@DS: Committing to crime later on doesn't undo the crime. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 09:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

If Maunus did breach 3RR then that is a valid concern, although I'm not sure why it is brought here rather than taken to WP:AN3. - Sitush (talk) 09:29, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I did break 3rr because I was being reverted and warned for invalid reasons - the information I added was fully sourced. the reversals was not based on having read the actual material, and the rationales given were incorrect. And Ok, I got angry.68.9.182.96 (talk) 13:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Blanking a section without discussion, breach of civility by calling other editor a joker even after being blocked for incivility, breach of 3RR. Did he not indulge in vandalism? -sarvajna (talk) 09:31, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The section blanking was based on discussion. Darkness shines said that the sources were unreliable, which of course should mean that we dont use them. Calling someone who makes jokes a joker is not a personal attack.68.9.182.96 (talk) 13:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Sitush: I did not bring it here to get action on his 3RR. I brought it here to get admin's opinions of how rightful attribution of edits should be done. We are in a way collecting feathers here to make a full duck. And its just a coincidence that his all colours are brought forth. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 09:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I see. Well, all I'll say now is that the more times contributor behaviour relating to the Narendra Modi article is raised here (see above thread), the more likely it is that someone with a mop will decide it is time to do some general cleaning. I doubt very much that the cleaning would be restricted to a single contributor. But if you want to push it then I cannot stop you. - Sitush (talk) 09:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Well... if that ever happens and wrong people are sacked for no reason, we at least would now be able to make reasonable guess as to who could be behind it. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 10:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Eh? Please, do tell me! - Sitush (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Although it's not sockpuppetry is it unnecessarily disruption. "I can't log in because of the wikibreak enforcer" isn't a good reason -- if Maunus has changed their mind about taking a break they should get the enforcer removed and log in with their account. NE Ent 09:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

He has to do no such thing, there are no rule saying you have to be logged in to edit, so I just logged out to do this. 212.183.128.186 (talk) 10:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Correct, but why happens when you cause disruptions without logging in? to whom should I attribute that disruption to? -sarvajna (talk) 10:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• I would note that although I agree that editing as an IP is fine, historically certain admins and members of the community in high positions feel otherwise. The primary reason I created this account was because when I was editing as an IP several editors used it as an excuse to say I was socking...and the community didn't debate that or indicate it wasn't ok to block me for editing as an IP. Now even in my RFA some said I was socking and pointed to those IP edits. So unless the member wants to be called a sockmaster they should edit using their account if they have one established. Kumioko (talk) 10:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
• Im not an admin, but just to weigh in on the IP/user thing. The reason why it is discouraged is that for the average user there is little or no way to discern if an IP belongs to a user. This can obviously be used to to give undue weight to things said by editors who engage in this behaviour. Essentially, User:Foobar12345678 could edit as his IP, and back himself up in a discussion. If his internet connection does not use a static IP, then each time he reconnects, it will be yet another user. Obviously some users may not think this through, and may do it inadvertently, but there is little difference between this and actual socking. -- Nbound (talk) 10:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
• On the enforcer - if you want to disable it, all you have to do is turn off JavaScript in your browser, then log in, and remove the enforcer script from your .js page. The enforcer doesn't actually block you from editing - it just lets you log in, and then automatically logs you out again, via JavaScript. — Mr. Stradivarius 12:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• I am kind of liking IP editing. I think I'll continue to do that and just leave my account behind. Thanks for the attention.68.9.182.96 (talk) 12:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  If you're still editing as an IP while you have the enforcer enabled, I think it is a sign that you are well and truly addicted to Misplaced Pages, and that you should either just come back and use your account, or ask Dennis Brown for a self-requested block. I'd prefer the former, but it's up to you... — Mr. Stradivarius 12:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Speaking as someone who accidentally stepped into this dispute while huggling yesterday, I will say that I found Maunus's multiple-IP editing disruptive. Not because he wasn't using his account, per se, but because a) he was using two IPs essentially at once (notice how the contribs of IP 128 and IP 68 cross within minutes of each other, making the same arguments, without identifying them as each other or himself until well into both the edit war and the talk page debate, after the article had been protected and he'd lost his advantage in reverting there); and b) he used that IP editing to get something resembling "extra chances" from, at least, me. As a naive admin not otherwise involved in the dispute, with no indication that I was dealing with not only an experienced editor but an ex-admin, I warned him about our BLP policy and then stuck around to try to explain it to what appeared to be a newbie who needed help understanding, rather than just blocking someone who was edit warring to insert a what looked to me like a pretty egregious BLP violation. Similarly, as an IP he got a warning and extra revert chances on 3RR that he wouldn't have gotten had it been known that he was not only the other IP, but also Maunus, who knows perfectly well about edit warring policy already.

  If Maunus wants to edit as an IP now rather than using his account, he's free to do that - but he needs to be up-front about using multiple IPs on different ranges in the same discussion, and the playing "dumb" about policy to avoid sanction needs to stop. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 13:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

My name is Maunus, with two u's. Read the sources and you will know why it was not a BLP violation. Block me for 3rr or more personal attacks or disruption if you wish, or give me a topic ban for any topic of your choosing, but PLEASE could we get some qualified admin attention to those pages already?68.9.182.96 (talk) 14:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, there are two Us. Sorry for the misspellings; I've corrected them above. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I would like to place this diff here .-sarvajna (talk) 14:19, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I see your diff and I raise you with this one68.9.182.96 (talk) 14:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Reluctantly, given the blatant edit-warring and general disruptive editing via IPs, I think there should be serious talk about sanctions against Maunus. Edits such as this are very much not ok in the first place, let alone something to edit-war back in or double down on, and his bizarre comment about DS being an admin, together with the responses to that on the IP talk page definitely create the impression of an effort to evade scrutiny. All of this is very much unbecoming of any editor, least of all an admin.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes I'm sure you're very reluctant. I am not an admin btw.64.134.99.103 (talk) 01:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I was responsible for the page protection of Narendra Modi; I then had a quick check back through the contributions of Maunus and his IP addresses, looking to see if he was using the IP accounts to edit whilst blocked or evade sanctions. I came across the last block ( - he was blocked for 48 hours at 03:04 17th May) and any edits after 03:04 on 19th May are perfectly acceptable. It wasn't until I went back and looked did I see one single edit from 18th May 2013 from one of his self identified IP addresses. I hadn't really paid much attention to the Wikibreak enforcer thing, but I'm now more concerned about this edit in light of the entire ANI thread here, than I was when I initially came across it yesterday. I'm not sure what action if any to take, so I'll toss it over to the community here to see if they think it warrants attention. Nick (talk) 20:48, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

That is not my edit. That IP is from my job, the anthropology department at the university where I work, where several people work with India related topics. The edit is adding a space. Not exactly my kind of edit.64.134.99.103 (talk) 01:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• I have done a bunch of stuff thats against the rules, and I will humbly and calmly accept any and all sanctions taken against me. But please can we have some attention to these articles and the editing behaviour of the particular editors I am mentioning. They are not breaking any redline rules, but they are a real threat to wikipedia. I would think much more so than I am, but that is up to you to decide.64.134.99.103 (talk) 01:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

What I would really like

What I would really like is a lot of uninvolved admins and non-admin editors to take a look at the articles Narendra Modi, 2002 Gujarat violence and other pages related to Hindu-Nationalism and communal violence in Gujarat. They should pay special attention to the editing of a group of editors including User:Ratnakar.kulkarni, User:Yogesh Khandke, User:Mrt3366, User:Dharmadhyaksha, User:Kondicherry, User:OrangesRyellow User:A.amitkumar (perhaps not, he only seems to have gotten involved yesterday) and administrator User talk:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington (reverts all edits from new editors to the article, even when reliably sourced and well formatted (often without edit summary), then proceeds to warn them om their talkpages). These editors, many of whom are SPAs relating to Hinduism, are working very hard to keep all criticism of Modi out of the article about him using every kind of spurious non-argument available, but usually just sheer force of numbers. There is a huge amount of behavioral issues for admins to sort out, walledgarden, opwnership, misrepresentation of sources, extreme pro-Modi bias. I additionally have reasonable suspicion that some of these editors are editing in coordination, and that some of them may in fact work for Modi or for his RSS organization known to have many fulltime activists paid to publicize propaganda. In short there is a lot of reasons as many administrators as possible should take a look at this article and the editing behavior there.

So why should there be critical information about Narendra Modi? Easy question. Because the overwhelming majority of sources about him are highly critical. He is described in literally dozens of reliable peer viewed sources as having been an "orchestrator" of the 2002 massacre against Muslims in Gujarat. He has been accused of personally intervening on the side of the mobs, even by people who are his supporters (they have been filmed praising him for it), he has been denied visas to USA and Britain under a law meant to target individuals who infringe on the religious freedom of others, he is almost without fail described as the most controversial politician in India, he has given his name to a brand of politics now called "Moditva" (mixing his name Modi and Hindutva, described by reliable sources as populist, virulently anti-muslim hindu nationalism combined with liberal economic policies). See this write up for a review of some scholarly sources about him, none of which are currently used in the article.

Right now the article doesn't even describe the fact that the BJP and RSS are Hindu nationalist organizations and gives no description of his politics. There is a section on his "personality" that builds entirely on news sources, all of which are highly critical of Modi. One would not realize that from reading the article though, because in the section they are used only to cherrypick minor positive details. For example a source that is criticizing or even ridiculing Modis poetry is used to source that "he writes poems in gujarati". A source that critiques him as being virulently chauvinist and Anti-Muslim is used to source that he is a vegetarian. And a source that says says that he is considered an autocrat by his opponents is used only to source that that his supporters see him as a Protector (which in fact is a misrepresentation of what the source says). Whenever a critical piece of information is entered (even the fact that he is a hindu-nationalist) the mentioned editors show up and remove it (often using rollback or twinkle with no edit summary, they then proceed directly to warn the editor who makes the edit), and then when a discussion starts they argue that the critical information is not notable (even when it appears in ), is not backed by reliable sources (even when the same sources are used by themselves to source other pieces of information) or that it is inaccurate (usually not backed by any evidence or supported by blog or news column sources). Then the editor who inserted the information gives up and leaves and everything is back to "normal". The result is that no other living politician with a comparable degree of contentiousness (having been publicly accused of aiding and abetting genocide, having been denied visa to several foreign countries, having been the object of Supreme Court Investigations, strong nationalist and fundamentalist viewpoints, being described having some degree of involvement in sectarian violence in almost every single reliable source that mentions him etc.) is being treated with a similar degree of reverence. Might it be because this particular politician is supported by a large and well paid staff of propagandists?

This is not how wikipedia is supposed to work. And I humbly ask for all of your help in coming to the article and assuring that we achieve an article that gives a critical but fair article about this highly controversial politician that represents all the available sources about him.68.9.182.96 (talk) 13:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Note: As this big essay is about the article and not about the IP usage issue i have raised above, i am separating it. There is no need to nest this topic in the topic thats going on above. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 14:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

DO NOT mess with my formatting again.68.9.182.96 (talk) 14:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

A Big piece of crap... just because I raised a sockpuppet investigation against you... and for a discussion which you couldn't be civil enough and i put a NPA comment... LOL... Hey where are your buddy admin's and users. I dont have to explain myself but i will do so.. i reached the NM page through an edit i was doing on digvijay page which i reached due to some date related cleanup i am doing all across WP... (see year maintenance tag removal history by me in my contribs). And here i meet this bunch of edit warers and got into this mess of war between BJP and congress activists... though what you may say might be true about other editors... this seems true about you too... is some one paying you? Remember WP is filled with so many rules and quotes that every rule has a counter-rule that i can quote, so it is many times best to maintain your civility which i did and you did not. What you claim as reliable sources are political mouthpieces in the same way as the other waring editors are using their mouthpieces... so how are you different from them? you are just another side of the same coin... Amit (talk) 15:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

May I remind you that you were arguing that we could not mention the political stances of Modi or any of the parties or organizations with which he is affiliated because that would be libel. I have never heard a more absurd argument. As opposed to most of these editors (I think yuo may be an exception as well) I have a long history of editing many other topics on wikipedia and writing large amounts of article content, not just maintaining articles about my favorite politicians. That is the difference between a pov pushing single purpose account and an actual encyclopedic editor. 68.9.182.96 (talk) 15:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

In the discussion I was mentioning about LIBEL due to edits that you had done here and for the addition of party agenda details i said - wiki reference to those party pages should take care of it instead of explaining it there and at this point i also compared it with Sonia Gandhi page saying congress agenda is not summarized in that page so why are you so much into this person alone... at which point you did seem get to enraged... irrespective of all this... lets say my arguments were not sensible... so is that what you would do? call me a joker? and you expect me to take it lying down? i put a sensible NPA comment on your page which was removed later here and when looking at the IP's i notice two IP's one identified by your id and another IP making the same points across the whole NM discusison page, I put a sock puppet investigation too.. i feel my actions are reasonable... where as yours were not surely cool headed.Amit (talk) 16:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• I have now presented an array of some 10-15 academic peerreviewed sources at the talkpage most of them published within the last 4 years. The aforementioned editors are now arguing that these academic specialist sources are "obsolete" because the Indian government in 2012 released a report exculpating Modi. Some of these sources are critiques if that very report and the modus operandi of the investigation team (who rejected most of the testimonies of hundreds of eye witnesses, and let the murderers free on bail letting them threaten and silence key witnesses etc.). If these editors are allowed to call a 1 year old peer reviewed source by a professor specializing in the topic obsolete, then we can take our policy on reliable sources and use it for toilet paper, and just hand wikipedia over to the POV pushers. Administrator User:Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington is among the worst to misrepresent and undercut our foundational policies about sources in this case.68.9.182.96 (talk) 12:23, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Maunus, but you are handling this very badly. If your real concern is that certain articles need admin attention, you should file a separate report, and include some diffs. By adding sections titled "What I would really like" in a thread instigated to review your behavior, it looks like a desperate attempt to avoid scrutiny. Then concentrate on responding to the issues about your behavior in this thread. As an experienced editor, you should know this.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:04, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

153.161.195.137 violating final warning

153.161.195.137 (talk · contribs) received this final warning from admin Drmies about making personal attacks against a particular editor. Please see Drmies' talk page, which shows the comment that violated the warning. Since Drmies had already posted a final warning last week, I simply posted this comment on IP 153's talk page instead of using a template. Thank you. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 11:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Snooze city. This could have been dealt with very easily before being brought here. Doc talk 15:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Tsa(x)(gh)kadzor

This is more a question of proper procedure than an incident requiring immediate action, so if anyone thinks it belongs elsewhere, please tell me so or simply move it. We have an article on a place in Armenia called Tsaghkadzor‎ and also a stub about a place in Azerbaijan called Tsaxkadzor (though sources for the latter are pretty thin on the ground). Recently, an Armenian IP has been repeatedly changing the Tsaxkadzor article to be about the Armenian place even though we already have a separate article on it. I've tried to explain in edit summaries why I've reverted these edits and dropped a couple of warnings on the IP's talk page, but I have a feeling that he doesn't understand English very well, and he's been persistent in making the edits. It doesn't seem to be a good case for semiprotection, since it's just the one stable IP doing this; and I feel bad about dropping a couple more warnings and asking for a block, since the IP may not really understand what's going on. What's the best thing to do in such cases? Deor (talk) 11:54, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I can think of two things and would suggest doing the first before the second. (1) Find someone who speaks Armenian and someone who speaks Azeri; get the first one to write "For the town in Armenia, see Tsaghkadzor" in Armenian and the second to write "For the village in Azerbaijan, see Tsaxkadzor" in Azeri. Paste one on each article, directly under the English-language hatnotes that say the same thing, and be sure to place the text in hidden comments. (2) Block. I suppose there's a small chance that the users simply aren't understanding, but surely they'll understand their own language; someone who keeps this up despite the hidden-text comments is clearly doing it in bad faith. Nyttend (talk) 12:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the coords given for the later, Google Earth shows only a single structure, a lone agricultural building (a chicken or cow shed); not a farmstead, not a hamlet, and certainly not a named place of any note that shows up in either Google or Bing maps. So either the sole source that asserts the existence of Tsaxkadzor is wrong about its location, or we have an article about a cowshed. Either way, without some actual reliable source about Tsaxkadzor, we shouldn't have an article about it. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 12:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

In case anyone is thinking that it's the same place with two sets of similar coords, the two locations are about 100 miles apart. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 13:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

If the place doesn't exist, the article should be AfD'd or redirected. It shouldn't be rewritten to treat a different place about which we already have an article. Originally, I thought that this was an ethnic thing, since the putative Tsaxkadzor is in the area of Azerbaijan that is currently under the de facto control of the Armenian-dominated (and not internationally recognized) Nagorno-Karabakh Republic; so I assumed that the IP was merely trying to claim the place for Armenia. But he doesn't just change the country to Armenia; he changes the coordinates, province, and everything else to match the information about Tsaghkadzor‎, which is actually in Armenia. Deor (talk) 19:54, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea of deleting it; the IP's confusion shows that the names are similar enough that it would be a good redirect if we don't retain the article. Nyttend (talk) 22:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

BLP

• Amanda Bynes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article is semi'd so I can't fix it. Please revert , consider deleting image and consider full prot due to last night's arrest. --64.85.214.37 (talk) 15:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've reverted and warned the editor, as well as sent that photo (File:Amanda-Bynes-05-23-2013.jpg) to speedy delete. It is obviously not public domain. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Faster than Jimmy John's, thank you. --64.85.214.37 (talk) 16:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Lucia Black

Lucia Black continues to launch personal attacks against other editors and myself. Lucia Black has a history of civility and battleground issues that span from 2009 to now. Right from our very first interaction at the Ghost in the Shell GAN she accused me of being biased.. In January, in an unrelated matter, Lucia continued to make NPA attacks even at ANI, in this case which attacked the reporter Goodraise. She was warned about her attacks on me at this ANI. She also lobs attacks at other editors with some frequency; especially when she makes mistakes and errors. Part of the issue comes from Lucia Black's removal or alterations of editor comments, like this confusing one. The alteration of RexxS's comments resulted in a warning on her talk page. As a result, Lucia claimed he 'called her a troll' when he did not. It was the same comment made earlier against me after I proved her insertion of false material into an article.

As for the matter of insertion of false material, which is equally serious in my eyes, Lucia knowingly re-inserted false material into an article with an edit summary which hinted as such. She argued falsely on my talk page. Which resulted in me pulling the transcript as proof. Which got her to admit that the characters are different, but she was correct to do make that edit because they were similiar. Which resulted in me calling for seriousness, which provoked her making the accusation of bad-faith and trolling. Lucia has continued to spread this false accusation to other editors including Worldtraveler101 today.

While the NPA matter is why I brought this here; other issues have been noted with WP:IDHT/WP:NOTHERE at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#Deletion_campaign_by_editors. Another example of this battleground and disruption comes from Template_talk:Track_listing with edits like this. Where Lucia disruptively opposes after admitting to not understanding the core problem, and threatens admin intervention after consensus is clearly against her. Something needs to be done because Lucia's conduct has been unacceptable and exhausted the patience of the community with these circular arguments and bullying. I propose admonishment or a warning. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Me not understanding the subject was more hypothetical if they knew something they didnt exactly said, then now was the time to say it. Theyve avoided clear questions.

But regardless, every incident is with you involved and they will see your faults aswell. WP:BOOMERANG. Falls here.

Falls material is completely subjective. I tried explaining to you something and you called me a troll. You wanted to look for a source where sources didnt need to be found and could not be found. Its like looking for a source that says link from ocarina of time is the same link in skyward sword. Youre not gonna find a source for that. Its not upto opinion but commonsense.

If I said you called me a troll, its because you said it. And the ONLY reason why Im not bringing up links like you is because this is all on smartphone and would take me all day for one full comment.Lucia Black (talk) 18:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• I read Template_talk:Track_listing#Album_name_.2B_artist, losing precious time of my life I'll never get back. Andy's proposal there is supported by all but one editor, Lucia Black. I don't think individual remarks toward Chris ("youre all bark, with no reason to leave a bite mark"--parsing the grammar is a bit difficult) rise by themselves to a blockable level, but what I do see is a bad case of I DIDN'T HEAR THAT and a refusal to abide by what is a pretty clear consensus. Someone with a decent amount of technical knowledge should go by there and close that discussion as if it were an RfC, to move forward with Andy's proposal which is supported by RexxS, MrMoustache, LilUnique, ChrisGualteri, and possibly Walter Gorlitz. That will put a stop to that particular unholy discussion which is disruptive/disrupted beyond reason because of Lucia Black who, apparently, neither understands the issue at hand nor is willing to accept that those issues are explained. (That's how I read the comments by all other editors; I'm not delving into the technicalities.) I don't see any boomerangs flying around, and I don't understand that "Falls" means in Lucia Black's response here. So, a warning I will give: Lucia Black, your behavior in that track listing debate is highly disruptive. I will leave the rest to someone else--a decision whether to block her or to extend the discussion in some detail by reference to other disruption, and the close of that discussion about the track listing. Drmies (talk) 18:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

RexxS has his own personal reasons, and acknowledhes it doesnt provide any real benefit within wikipedia as an encyclopedia. lilunique is for granularity in which is practically serving the similar ourpose of metadata and microformat. The problem is that the proposed metadata is more suited if the template was not in the article space and in a separate article. Its enhancing metadata only to be redundant. None of them actually answered my question, even if they claim they have. It wouldnt even hurt to repeat themselves just once to know exactly what they claim is their answer. Its definitely hear-say situation.

As for the rest, Chrisgualtieri is mainly putting this on noticeboard due to me informing another editor its not good idea for him to be an Admin. My comments are incredibly low key, compared to Chris. But I cant nominate him, even if he is disruptive of admin level, because they wont. However, I have not said a lie about Chris. CHRIS knows im telling the truth, but this time it compromised his way to becoming an admin. Which is good, because hes not ready to be one, ive reported 3 edit wars on him, all got away with technicalities of responding after ANI, other editors involved also made mention of him in ANI.Lucia Black (talk) 19:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

This editor is also bringing WP:CANVAS for people who are barely related at all. It seems ridiculois to bring anyone else. Not that I dont have any other editors who have witnessed these situations relating to me and chris, but overall why should I? This is ridiculous.Lucia Black (talk) 19:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no need to rehash that argument here, but your comments about the opinions of RexxS and Lil-unique1 are, as far as I can tell, completely incorrect. Drmies (talk) 21:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not like having to reply to defend myself here. Your point is duly noted; there is no RFA; I just wanted the tools for administrative backlogs like WP:FTCG and merges assisting with undeletion request like Ashen Empires. I do not want to go back and forth over every detail, but it is proper to notify people that their names have been mentioned at ANI. I explicitly mentioned their name and provided diffs to evidence, I notified them as a courtsey. We may not agree on things Lucia, but I have never called you a troll; a troll does not improve the coverage of articles at Square Enix and Anime as you do. As much as I like your work at Final Fantasy Dimensions, the conflict is ideology based and I simply do not know how to appeal to you and work together. I've done all that I am capable of, even begging for cooperation on Talk:Ghost in the Shell. This is not about 'winning', I just want things to be factually accurate. I am not a scholar in the field, but works like Tokyo Cyberpunk: Posthumanism in Japanese Visual Culture is a defining book on the subject. While that content dispute is past, I fear that I will have to readdress the appropriateness of a topic-level article at some future point as noted by WP:DETAIL, where you were in the minority opinion. The issue that I brought to ANI however, is the personal attacks. Which I have cited, with diffs, the origin and reason behind why you used it. I do not want you blocked or banned; I just hope that this serves as a call that such conduct is unwelcome. I apologize for any perceived rudeness, in this post and the one above, because the last five months have worn on me. I am unable to resolve this by myself and DRN was of no use, the RFCs have been my way to address this, because I alone cannot solve this problem. I welcome anyone with the fortitude to mediate this issue; I just want this problem to be resolved. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Im too tired too search for when exactly you said but I know it was gits related. Still the problem is just between me and you. Whenever you engage you dont stay nuetral, you constantly bring other topics that arent relevant, you use the same attacks you claim I make to you. You always try to undermind my comment by telling other editors of the past discussions. Thats not being civil, thats provoking an argument that can be avoided. You have no room to say anything. Youve edit warred 3 times for the same subject knowing full well you had no consemsus, and knowing it was against BRD rule. Everytime theres a discussion you turn it into something else. Do I mention previous discussions? No. You have always been the first one to provoke. Stop trying to bring ANI to block for something you not only started but continued to fight even I. Topics unrelated to it.Lucia Black (talk) 21:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Gits? Lucia Black, you need to see that the problem (as far as that Track listing debate is concerned) isn't between you and Chris but between you and everyone else. We need some more eyes on this to confirm: this is a disruptive editor. Drmies (talk) 23:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  GitS = Ghost in the Shell. —Frungi (talk) 01:13, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

No its not. Such as tracklisting, the editors refused to answer strong consensus changing questions and avoided the flaws. And even then Andy Mabett made it completely clear he didnt want to even clarify the other editors who supported his cause despite having completely different motives.

Disruption isnt "constant" nor "admin" worthy because all im being accused of is wanting to know why consensus is leaning toward this. Sue me for wanting a more agreeing consensus rather than a consensus that has each benefits their personal views but not really supporting the actual cause or focused on how much it would affect an article.

Being in a dispute is not disruptive. Especially if im asking key relevant questions. Even then, its not even admin worthy nor disruptive in general. Its not a poll decision, its based on reasoning. The others barely made any significant reason. The only one who was actually clear was RexxS who was worried about modifying the template so it can be used outside of wikipedia. Still metadata is based solely on the tracklist, they forget that the same info is on the article space and that much metadata is unnecessary. As long as title parameter (sharing the same name of the article title in most cases) is present. Still, its just enhancement for the sake of enhancement and completely subjective. And im not going to fight over this. Mentioning every dispute isnt proving anything significant. Ive seen several editors get in dispute several times. Im done with this, j formally apologize and it wont happen again. Etc. Point being, this is pointless.Lucia Black (talk) 00:06, 25 May 2013 (UTC).

The problem was that your questions were answered, the same way they were answered more then a dozen times at the Pump RFC which was after a lengthy discussion at the A&M talk page. While this is not an exhaustive list, these diffs show WP:IDHT. You were instructed by half a dozen editors why article assessment is not tied to notability; you cannot delete an article because it cannot make C class. You respond to the editors with comments like: Again...missing the point. So im not going to repeat the same explanations. You all know youre misinterpretting it. Also in that diff, you strangely removed part of my comment which should not be done. It wasn't major, but you did this and got warned by RexxS which you then accused him of calling you a troll as noted in the diffs above. I do not know why you keep doing that either. Though I do appreciate the apology, but it shouldn't be directed at me. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

In the end, one admitted its not against any policy to do such a campaigne. And even then, you guys havent actually proven that classes arent related to notability. And whats worst is that it didnt affect the campaigne overall. It was pure devils advocate. Even though evidence strongly suggest stubs and start are articles that havent made the notability apparent.

Regardless, unlike tracklist people were onboard with the othersl discussions.im in ANI simply for defending my prooosald and reasoning.Lucia Black (talk) 01:21, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Disruption by Peterzor

Personal attack at Talk:Soviet Union. User is User:Peterzor See diff showing attack. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3ASoviet_Union&diff=556596468&oldid=556595902 See diff showing blanking of user talk page, with incorrect edit summary of reverting vandalism, to remove notices. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Peterzor&curid=36728281&diff=556617356&oldid=556599808 Robert McClenon (talk) 18:24, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

You're already discussing this at WP:AN ... (✉→BWilkins←✎) 18:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• This user has received numerous warnings on his talk page ,,,,,,,,,,,, but the message that he must abide by Misplaced Pages policies doesn't seem to be getting through. --Nug (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• I have been experiencing problems with this editor on Nazi Germany, where I have been trying to prep the article for GA. He has 88 edits to that article since the beginning of April, with almost all of the edits focusing on two sentences in the lead. He's repeatedly removed content that I added specifically in response to the peer review (diff, diff, diff, diff), added factually incorrect and poorly worded material (diff, diff), ignored ongoing talk page discussions that are not going his way and then re-inserting his preferred version of the article (diff, diff) via slow-motion edit wars. Overnight he was canvassing other users when I reverted his addition of unsourced content (Diff of User talk:Boson; Diff of User talk:Rjensen; Diff of User talk:Moxy). Some of his edits to his own talk page make me suspect competence issues (sample four-minute series of edits: diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff. I have been trying very hard to assume good faith, but in my opinion the matter goes beyond a content dispute and into the issue of this editor's suitability to contribute here. Independent examination of this editor's activities would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, -- Dianna (talk) 21:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

these users has a content dispute with me so they want me out of the way Peterzor (talk) 07:03, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Add sock puppetry to the mix: After commenting as Peterzor (talk · contribs), he logs out and adds a comment as an IP , then logs back in and reverts claiming 3 people support his version. --Nug (talk) 08:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Meyerbeer13 making pointy edits.

Meyerbeer13 (talk · contribs · count) is a new user who has got annoyed at a couple of experienced users who have tried to explain the Wikipedian way. The user has just accused User:Smerus of all people of being an anti-Semite. This choice of targets makes me wonder if there is some trolling going on. Edit captions such as "removed tendentious and disparaging remarks -- when you put such remarks in Mozart's bio then put them in Meyerbeer's" when removing a cited quotation and "deleted tendentious judgement" when truncating a quote from William Christie (harpsichordist) suggest that he is on a WP:POINT trip.--Peter cohen (talk) 18:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

This user has violated WP:OR, WP:PEA and WP:CENSOR many times in his so far short career on en.wikipedia.org. That, and accusing anyone of being anti-semitic because of a content dispute, makes this editor block-worthy, and I support a block of him, whether temporary or indefinite. Toccata quarta (talk) 19:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear. This is not good. "Just because something isn't sourced, doesn't mean that it isn't valid -- this is a bogus argument. I have thought deeply and read a lot about these composers." Another thing; 8 days as an editor with 25 edits and he is using language like "removed tendentious and disparaging remark" in edit summaries? The WP:DUCK test tells me that this is a sockpuppet of someone who has been warned or blocked for tendentious editing and disparaging remarks toward other editors. Does anyone have any idea who the sockmaster might be? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

This was completely unacceptable, but I don't think he's here to troll, and I'm almost positive he's not a sockpuppet. He doesn't use "tendentious" in the Misplaced Pages way. He uses it to describe the opinions of published authors and experts with which he disagrees. He's explicitly said he doesn't believe negative evaluations of composers belong in articles, no matter who made the evaluation. This is one of those typical cases of a new (and probably knowledgeable) editor who's here to "right a great wrong" (he is an admirer of both Lully and Meyerbeer) but hasn't really understood our requirements about original research, reliable sources, and the necessity to discuss an article's issues on its talk page when you have been reverted by multiple editors. He seems to have stopped edit-warring. If he starts again, perhaps a note on his talk page from someone not involved in the article will help him to take the advice less personally. Voceditenore (talk) 09:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Repeat AfD

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Although the previous AFD closed but four days ago, User:Silver seren started Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Wikipediocracy (2nd nomination) today, following up the nomination with the following comment: "The closing admin should also note that this discussion is likely to bring a number of Wikipediocracy members here to vote Keep. Of my count in the past discussion, there were 4." He later updated that count; I haven't felt the need to figure out exactly whom he was trying to discredit in this act. As anyone who cares to search for his name at Wikipediocracy can rapidly discern, there's no love lost between Silver seren and the core membership of that forum, a number of whom have been banned here; the nomination has a vindictive color, especially with the not especially subtle insinuation that those who are members don't get a voice in this. (In fact at least one of the "delete" responses comes from a forum member.) I was surprised to discover that the nominator voted to keep the article the first time around, but the appearance two days after the AfD closed of a rather nasty thread on the forum naming this editor is the only obvious thing I see that changed. At any rate I'm dubious about the progress of an AfD in the current climate, especially since DRV would seem to be the more natural home for the discussion. Mangoe (talk) 20:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this is an AN/I matter unless there is someone seeking to sanction Silver seren for persistent disruption. He made an ill-considered procedural error. Some administrator should speedily close the out-of-process 2nd AfD so that the matter can be moved to Deletion Review, where it belongs. No further action necessary, in my opinion. Carrite (talk) 21:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, since such a closure would require administrator action this would appear to have been the right place to ask. This isn't the sort of thing for which I would ordinarily ask for a sanction but a procedural close is in my opinion a reasonable resolution. Mangoe (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't see what Wikipediocracy members or !voting have to deal with a deletion matter. The better issue to make is whether or not the Salon or Daily Dot count as reliable sources to prove notability. Given that numerous other editors share the same sentiments and the article cannot be closed as 'snow keep', it is not bad-faith nomination. An editor is allowed to express reasonable concern and the AFD process is not being abused here. While the comment may not be the best, we have had COI issues with everything from the Bronies of My Little Pony; Wikipediocracy members are typically experienced editors and their arguments should be given the same weight as any other Wikipedian. Deletion Review is procedurally the best option, but I'm going to AGF on the re-nomination reasons of the editor as I clearly know nothing about Wikipediocracy. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:23, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Per people's comments here, I've closed the AFD and opened a DRV, using Silver Seren's AFD nomination text as the rationale for the DRV. See Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2013 May 24, and note that I'm neutral on the merits of the question; the only thing I've advocated is a manner of going about with a relist if we decide that a relist is needed. Nyttend (talk) 22:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

"DRV sometimes returns a decision of "open a new AFD"". Oh god I hope not :> IRWolfie- (talk) 23:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The one thing on which I took a stand was the process of reopening — I basically said "if we decide to relist, let's reopen the one I just closed". I definitely agree that an immediate third nomination would be a bad idea. Nyttend (talk) 23:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Possible linkage with a sock?

Is there any link between User:Rembrandt_Peale, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Evidence-based,Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Beheading_in_the_name_of_Islam. User:Rembrandt_Peale is clearly an experienced Wikipedian. Just not sure if there's a link with Evidence-based. Another possible link: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Historicist/Archive --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Well thats interesting. I can provide behavioral evidence relating this new user to Historicist, but it looks to me that Historicist was just part of the Evidence-based sockfarm. Color me surprised. nableezy - 08:01, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Psygeek2

Just writes something not interesting to place links to youreasyguide.info. Tagremover (talk) 20:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, a better warning would have been based on WP:SPAMLINK rather than vandalism, but no matter. If he continues, he'll be blocked, but he hasn't edited since your final warning. In fact, he hasn't edited at all in four days.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Looks like he's been here before. A long time ago pushing different websites. See the first incarnation.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Intimidation by User:Rcsprinter123

I find this intimidation of an editor who does not happen to share Rcsprinter123's personal views of what Misplaced Pages should or should not be seriously disturbing. I believe some sort of sanction is needed to bring home to this editor the meaning of collegiate editing and community consensus.--Charles (talk) 21:24, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you could provide some more of the back story than just the one diff. Based on Rcsprinter's comments, it sounds like there is one, which includes not only Davey but also you. I don't see why you should put us to the task of digging for it.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Long story short, I removed the route list (on Richards Brothers) per WP:Notdir, he reverted, I reverted, he then stuck above comment on my page, I replied with "get a life".

I then decided to remove his cmt/my reply, hours later he took to the talk page to attempt with an discussion so I replied and that's it,

It's not the first time he's been "pleasant" to me , apart from me+ RCSprinter - no editors are involved & removals after the "get a ife" cmt are RFC removals,

Thanks Charles for your help, →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 22:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't see this as "intimidation". I do see it as getting rather carried away, and Rcsprinter should tone it down a bit.

In fact, all of the people involved should tone it down a bit, do some experimental dis-engaging, and so forth.

Charlesdrakew, have you had any interactions with Rcsprinter in the past? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:50, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think there is any need for admin action here, but Rcsprinter who also has a troubled editing and behaviour history is in no position to start throwing his weight around in this manner. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:38, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello, So he speaks to me like shit & seems to have gotten away with it?, Personally I do think it's bullying & it shouldn't be tolerated!, Although we all perceive things in different ways If he's done it with me he'll probably do it with someone else too.... Thanks, →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 10:41, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

It may not rise to the level of intimidation, but e wouldn't like to see you topic banned, would we... Sir is particularly unpleasant, even if this Rcs is correct on the merits (and I admit I have not checked). Rcs, in the future please refrain from using a language that can be reasonably perceived as confrontational or threatening. Salvio 10:57, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Seems clear-cut intimidation to me as well as unpleasant and uncivil. I know that this is an empty and meaningless threat but less experienced editors may not know that and may be deterred from editing in good faith. Rcsprinter123 is not correct on the merits. A large number of lists of non-notable local bus routes have recently been deleted at AfD by overwhelming consensus among numerous editors. Many of them were nominated by Davey, editing within policy. Rcsprinter123 refuses to accept this consensus and continues to look for ways round it. If this kind of attack is not dealt with it is likely to be used again against editors who are less able to shake it off as nonsense.--Charles (talk) 12:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken at Mendoza Line

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Long-time I.P. editor here (dynamic I.P. address, generally but not always in the 108.45.xxx.xxx range). Please see the developing edit-war on Mendoza Line - my understanding of Bold Revert Deny Discuss has always been that the original addition of content constitutes the "Bold", but User:Beyond My Ken seems to be interpreting the "revert" as the "bold". Whether or not this reflects changing standards since my days of more-frequent WikiGnoming, or whether BmK is just hoping to place the onus on me to "justify" the removal of some pretty useless "content", I'm not entirely sure. To be honest, I've already lost interest - if the current "direction" of Misplaced Pages is to try to mention every single letter ever written to any editor of a moderately-large publication, then that's fine. Otherwise, maybe someone with more "credentials" than myself can engage the appropriate talk page - I'm sure whatever I say would quickly disappear into the ether of this relatively-obscure page. Not really interested in engaging an editor as seemingly-aggressive as BmK, I have more interesting and rewarding things to do than "defend" myself against this particular blend of wiki-lawyering and allegations of sockpuppetry. Cheers, Strani Beeap (talk) 00:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Please note that the top of this page says to use headers that are neutral; I've changed it. Nyttend (talk) 00:26, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Regardless of which edit is the initial bold edit (and arguably, whatever the change to the status quo is, whether it's addition or deletion, is the bold edit), we're past revert and up to the discuss phase, the D of WP:BRD. Strani, I don't see where you've made any edits to Talk:Mendoza Line, where you could explain your reasoning for the edits and see whether other editors will agree. —C.Fred (talk) 00:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) From what I read in history that sentence was in there since 2012 already. You were "bold" in removing it after which he "reverted". The "discuss" part both of you haven't done yet since the talk page hasn't been edited since 2011. Garion96 (talk) 00:33, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• • Just want to note that:

    (1) The content removed by Strani Beeap was sourced, and was removed on the basis of WP:UNDUE. Since UNDUE is by its very nature a judgment call, once the removal is contested, discussion is required to get a consensus to justify the deletion. (There would be different onus if the material was not sourced.)

    (2)User:Strani Beeap is clearly not a new user, as anyone looking through his edits - and, especially his edit summaries, which brought him a warning from an admin on his second edit - can see. Since Strani Beeap admits to having been an active WikiGnome in the past, I think it's a fair question from the community to ask who he is, really.

    Since Strani Beeap admits that he's "already lost interest", then the intent of this report would seem to be simply to try to get me into trouble, since he never engaged me on my talk page, and doesn't seem to want to follow up. That's not what AN/I is for. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • You mean clearly as in "he's never denied it and told us all he's not a new user before you did"? --Jayron32 00:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • • No I mean "clearly" as is "oh, no, yet another I've edited for years as an IP story and just happened to make an account now to begin editing with an extreme attitude that's more indicative of the sockpuppet of a blocked or banned user than it is of a person who WikiGnomed for years." Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • • • Whatever. Regardless, there needs to be a civil discussion over the issue at the relevant talk page, and people need to stop reverting or editing the article until that discussion is concluded with a satisfactory consensus. It is not a fruitful exercise to decide who has the advantage of first move in any of these situations, as deciding that doesn't make that discussion happen any faster. Once the need for a discussion has been acknowledged, editing needs to stop, the article needs to be left exactly where it is, and discussion needs to happen. --Jayron32 00:55, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • • • Condescending snark like this is exactly why most of us gnomes do our absolute best to avoid Talk pages at all costs. That, and the fact that I already explained my edits using the "edit summary" feature of WikiMedia, whereas you have yet to explain your repeated re-addition of the content beyond the single two-word refrain, "it's sourced". and then people wonder why there's a problem with editor retention... Strani Beeap (talk) 01:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

If I ever get around to writing WP:The Ent guide to wiki battles (articlespace edition) a key element that I'll be emphasizing is the importance of seizing the tactical advantage of the article talk page. When two editors are edit warring and there's been no edits to the talk page since the calendar year before last, neither looks particularly good. NE Ent 01:02, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

That may well be the case, but when one of them is deleting sourced material... Remember, we have a template for that kind of behavior.

In any event, Jayron is correct, the article is kept in the status quo ante while discussion is ongoing. I await SB's explanation for why UNDUE applies. If he gets a consensus, great. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:05, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Mate, you keep throwing around the term "sourced" as if that's the be-all, end-all "magic bullet" to inclusion. I can go find today's Washington Post and use the letters to the editor to "substantiate" all sorts of deranged, WP:UNDUE "some say" claims. It doesn't make them worthy of inclusion. Strani Beeap (talk) 01:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Someone please close re. "wonder why there's a problem with editor retention" Strani Beeap, redlink editors who repeatedly delete sourced content and don't discuss are editors we don't bend over backwards to retain. reverting a redlink editors repeated deletion of sourced content isn't a sin, it's a minor barnstar In ictu oculi (talk) 02:21, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Why are you all still here? Get to the article talk page, make your case there. Shoo. --Jayron32 02:22, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Template:WW2InfoBox

Have a problem were an editor is simply refusing to listen to the small consensus on a talk page as seen at Template talk:WW2InfoBox#China and Japan. The editor in question User:Phead128 (AKA IP: 50.136.53.17) has reverted 4 editors multiple times over the exact same edit at Template:WW2InfoBox. As seen on the templates talk page we have talked about it including the aforementioned user and came to a consensus - be it very small amount of people. Looking for some more input on the situation and how to proceed. What is the best course of action here - ask for more to get involved because its a small consensus or simply ask for a block for disruptive behavior and/or 3 revert rule. They have been informed about the 3 revert rule and I can assume by its blanking it is understood or at the very least read.Moxy (talk) 02:43, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• 31 hours for edit warring. Moxy, best to set up an "official" count, or an RfC, to get it clad in iron. I see the consensus there, but having it made official might help next time. Drmies (talk) 03:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I see your point - more involved officially may help overall - if still a problem in 32 hours will ask for a formal RfC. The whole situation was not handled on the tlak page in the - best - most respectful manner and is why I can here before reporting the 3 revert.... to get a second opinion. I can see how User:Phead128 is a bit upset - I am also to blame for being a bit harsh. --Moxy (talk) 03:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, I blocked for edit warring and disruptive editing (against consensus), but there were a few insults as well, and I think they had the most of those. Drmies (talk) 03:36, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Hmm. I think User:Phead128 could have been treated a bit more gently. What he was suggesting was reasonable and accurate IMO. The other editors involved could have checked the facts before getting deeper into the argument. User:Phead128 was edit warring so the block is justified, but can we reduce the length to 24 or 12 hours? --Kleinzach 12:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I took a chance and unblocked, trusting that Drmies won't shank me for it. Let's see if we can turn Phead into a productive editor. Ed  13:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Request for a neutral party to do a procedural close

I'm requesting assistance from an uninvolved person familiar with RFC/Us to delete one as not meeting minimum requirements. I could speedy delete it myself, but as I'm the person being commented upon I think it would be better if someone else did it. I've waited the requisite 48 hours. The RFC/U doesn't meet the requirement: Any RfC not accompanied by evidence showing that two users tried and failed to resolve the same dispute may be deleted after 48 hours as "uncertified". The "evidence" given by the two certifiers are diffs relating to completely different matters, and do not show an attempt at resolution or compromise on the same matter as required. (Also, most of the diffs are to content disputes, not conduct disputes.)

The RFC/U is located here: RFC/U:Xenophrenic

The RFC/U is problematic for a number of other reasons. It is redundant to the identical conduct reviews presently being handled at ANI and ArbCom. The Statement/Description of dispute comes with zero diffs, and the few "evidence" non-diffs provided are actually links to nonspecific discussions, some covering many days and hundreds of comments on content disputes -- making it impossible to respond. The 4 editors offering "views" are also all on the same side of an ongoing content dispute in a moderated discussion - coincidence, I'm sure. I've read every word of their commentary, and if they want to refile a request that meets the minimum requirements of a defined dispute with specific evidence and specific attempts at resolution by two editors, I'll be able to respond. Xenophrenic (talk) 08:35, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Having reviewed the supporting diffs, I encourage Xenophrenic to address their behavior rather than attempting to have the RFCU deleted on a bureaucratic basis. NE Ent 10:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

NE Ent, I sincerely doubt that you have read the diffs, else you would know that I've already addressed any behavior allegations. So perhaps you would not mind specifying here what that exact behavior is, and include what you see as the most compelling "supporting diff" of that behavior that you have reviewed - rather than perpetuate the very same problem of vagueness brought to this noticeboard? You also appear to be unaware that I've already addressed the identical allegations in a previous ANI. A more thoughtful response would be appreciated, NE Ent, Xenophrenic (talk) 12:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• I reiterate my request to have the afore-mentioned RFC/U deleted. Xenophrenic (talk) 13:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Ricose

This user is continuously vandalizing articles even after repetitive warnings. His trait has been to remove the references as well as the referenced contents from an article and leaving an edit summary like removing peacocks and puffs or anything that would misguide other editors. Most recently he has been doing that in Joya Ahsan. I have successively warned the user with 3 vandalism templates on his talk page for his edits , , but he kept on vandalizing the article. Further, he also went on to put a similar warning template on my talk page here. I have also found his edits being reverted for possible vandalism in the articles Tasbiha Binte Shahid Mila, Stoic Bliss etc. --Zayeem 11:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

hmm, interesting that you come to report me for "vandalism" when you're the one who was previously warned by both me and another administrator for continuously re-adding puff, peacockery and original research to articles? at the risk of repeating myself for what seems like the 100th time, wikipedia is NOT a place for inflated superfluous verbosity and personal advertising!Ricose (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I didn't add any puffs or peacocks rather I just reverted your massive content removals in those articles. Though the articles were in quite bad shape and you were really removing puffs and peacocks from those articles but as I mentioned before you also removed many references and contents that were not puffs which you continued to do even after repetitive warnings. YIn this case of Joya Ahsan, you are simply vandalizing the article by removing the references and referenced contents which can be seen in the diffs given. --Zayeem 16:44, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I see no evidence of vandalism here, Zayeem. Vandalism has a very specific meaning here. Removing unsourced or promotional content is not vandalism. Let's start by assuming good faith and then move on to discussing content disputes civilly on the article's talk page. Vandalism templates and reports to this drama board seem like an over-reaction to me, but maybe there is something that I am not seeing? Cullen Let's discuss it 05:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

If you take a close look at these diffs , , you will see the user is just vandalizing the article Joya Ahsan by removing the references and the referenced contents and leaving some misguiding edit summaries. He actually doing these things since February (when he created his account) and continued to do so with some small breaks in between. Initially I assumed good faith and advised the user several times to change this trait but he kept on doing. My posts on his talk pages can be seen here. However, I was forced to use the vandalism templates when I was annoyed by his recent edits in the article Joya Ahsan which are clearly nonconstructive (diffs are given above). Moreover, its not just me, he was also warned by other editors before me for similar reasons which can be seen here and here. --Zayeem 10:31, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Want to point out, that User:Ricose was inactive in last few days (when this discussion started) but he emerged again and removed the references from the article here just when he noticed that the discussion was mistakenly archived by a bot here. In his latest edit, he stated that he is removing the original research, however he actually kept the original research and only removed the references along with the referenced contents. --Zayeem 09:00, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Seems better for WP:AIV. WorldTraveller101 12:37, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

TheSyndromeOfaDown

Hi guys. A few days ago, I noticed this user (who was already an accused sock of banned airport vandal, Jonathan Yip had made this edit, which is the same as one that JY did on 9 July 2011. And after being reported he is now blocked indefinitely for sockpuppetry after admitting at his talk page that he is a sock of someone, but is claiming he isn't a Yip sock, although that one edit at San Francisco International Airport made it pretty clear that he likely is, although CheckUser has the truth. At Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Jonathan Yip, a CheckUser is pending, but see below for my proposal of what should happen after the CheckUser has been completed. Thanks. WorldTraveller101 13:13, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I would also like to add about this user's baiting at his talk page. In this, he falsely accused User:ChakaKong and User:Steelbeard1 of being sockpuppeteers, which is clearly false. Anyway, I have a thread open at my talk page (Thread 17). Anyway, see the proposal below:

Proposed Site-Ban of TheSyndromeOfaDown

After all that has happened, pending the results of CheckUser, I propose one of two bans:

• 1. If his sockmaster is Jonathan Yip: It is very simple: This user should be indefinitely site-banned, if there is to be consensus.

• 2. If his sockmaster his someone besides Yip: Revoke talk page and e-mail for TSOaD, which will prevent him from doing any further disruption (he's already done plenty on his talk). If so, we'll need to find and confirm who the sockmaster is and then indefinitely site-ban them both.

Please insert your opinion below as either Support or Oppose and give reasons why you say so.

Thanks guys. WorldTraveller101 13:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

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