Talk:Gun control - Misplaced Pages

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discussion moved from user talk

The article needs to be expanded with further history of gun control (rest of the world etc as you say). That such sections are missing now is cause for someone to write them, not delete the sourced content. The use of gun control against Jews is an uncontested fact. It may be an unimportant fact in the scope of Nazis, but is not the same thing as being unimportant to the history of gun control, where it is one more instance of the LONG history of being applied as a tool of repression and discrimination, (in addition to the history where it was used with good intent). Gaijin42 (talk) 20:08, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Gaijin, in what sense do you call g.c. an unimportant fact with respect to the Nazis but nevertheless important as a tool of (presumably Nazi and other) repression and discrimination. Also, could If anyone in addition to myself feels that it would be appropriate, I suggest we copy the last few remarks to the article talk page. SPECIFICO talk 20:30, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The same event/fact can have different levels of importance in different contexts. (My grandfather died. Very important to my family. Not so much to the rest of the world).

The history of gun control is often and unfortunately one of repression and discrimination. I believe this is not a controversial idea.

To be sure, there are many instances where it was done with good intent in the history as well. (However, even the discriminatory ones were done with what the authors may have believed was good intent - nobody believes themselves to be evil)

Each instance (Nazis, US, Britan etc) it was one part of overall discrimination against some group, and in the context of the discrimination against that group was one cog in the machine of discrimination. But collectively, they are very important to history and concept of gun control, and should be documented as part of the overall fabric thereof.

I am fine with copying this to the talk page, but I don't think any arguments are really here that aren't made there. I was replying to the comment Drmies made.

Gaijin42 (talk) 20:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

By my reading you have repeated your assertion without answering my question. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 20:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

That comment would imply that you disagree with the basic premise "The same event/fact can have different levels of importance in different contexts." ? Gaijin42 (talk) 20:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

That inference would be mistaken. SPECIFICO talk 23:15, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

could you clarify what your question is then? Gaijin42 (talk) 23:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Question (slightly edited for clarity) Please explain your statement above that gun control was unimportant with respect to the Nazis but was nevertheless an important tool of Nazi repression? SPECIFICO talk 13:33, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Certainly the same facts may have significance to one article but not to another. But the only reason for mentioning Nazi laws in this article is if it were significant to Nazi oppression. Otherwise it is argumentum ad hitlerum, an attempt to discredit gun control by bringing up hitler and more broadly, to identify American liberalism with nazism. Gaijin42, do you think that the D.C. gun control laws were implemented as a first step in an American genocide? TFD (talk) 14:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

No, i do not think they were implemented as a first step to American genocide. That facts might discredit (or credit) a particular argument is not a reason to include or not include them. These facts are uncontested, they are verifiable and sourced to multiple primary and secondary sources, and they have been commented on by multiple notable sources (although you may not agree with the views of the people that comment) That there is controversy regarding opinions on the implications of uncontested fact in no way detracts from the relevance of uncontested facts. Indeed the controversy is itself notable. Continued attempts to suppress this information is POV based censorship. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:33, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

American liberalism? Actually 93% in recent polling. More like equating the NRA with the tiny German resistance. The only thing that will stop a bad Nazi with a gun is a good Nazi with a gun. SPECIFICO talk 14:21, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

"...the controversy is itself notable." Indeed, in sources describing the American Right, which is where the controversy should be mentioned. TFD (talk) 18:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

This entire thread seems unnecessary . Shadowjams (talk) 17:24, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

proposed new section/paragraph on 3d printing and effect on gun control

Many articles written on this topic recently, about how 3d printing (or CAD driven EDM/CNC) may eventually (once technology matures) make gun control difficult or impossible to enforce. Is there consensus to add a mention regarding this? As I believe we are still fully protected, we can work on wording here in the article and put in an edit request.

Gaijin42 (talk) 16:02, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Looks worthy of coverage in the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

proposed wording

After Defense Distributed released their 3D printed Liberator gun, questions were raised regarding the effects that 3D printing and widespread consumer-level CNC machining may have on gun control effectiveness.

The United States Department of Homeland Security and the Joint Regional Intelligence Center released a memo which was obtained by Fox News, saying that "Significant advances in three-dimensional (3D) printing capabilities, availability of free digital 3D printer files for firearms components, and difficulty regulating file sharing may present public safety risks from unqualified gun seekers who obtain or manufacture 3D printed guns," and "Proposed legislation to ban 3D printing of weapons may deter, but cannot completely prevent their production. Even if the practice is prohibited by new legislation, online distribution of these digital files will be as difficult to control as any other illegally traded music, movie or software files."

Internationally, where gun controls are generally tighter than in the United States, some commentators have said the impact may be more strongly felt, as alternative firearms are not as easily obtainable. European officials have noted that producing a 3d printed gun would be illegal under their gun control laws, and that criminals have access to other sources of weapons, but noted that as the technology improved the risks of an effect would increase.. Downloads of the plans from the UK, Germany, Spain, and Brazil were heavy.

Attempting to restrict the distribution over the Internet of gun plans has been likened to the futility of preventing the widespread distribution of DeCSS which enabled DVD ripping. After the US government had Defense Distributed take down the plans, they were still widely available via The Pirate Bay and other file sharing sites. Some US legislators have proposed regulations on 3D printers, to prevent them being used for printing guns. 3D printing advocates have suggested that such regulations would be futile, could cripple the 3D printing industry, and could infringe on free speech rights.

References

Looks good to me. North8000 (talk) 02:17, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Where should it go? A subsection under arguments? Or in the US section? It seems to be a US centric topic so far , although one article did mention a high number of downloads from europe suggesting heightened interest there due to their restrictive laws, and ultimately any disruptive effect the technology has would not be geographically restricted, unless one area was able to implement better regulation/restrictionGaijin42 (talk) 02:31, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion. I think that there is nothing particularly US related about it. North8000 (talk) 11:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have actually just found some sources discussing 3d printing in the context of european gun control, I will expand the paragraph (perhaps make it a section broken into a few small paragraphs) to deal with that. With that change, I think it should go as a sub-section under arguments?Gaijin42 (talk) 14:43, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

International paragraph added Gaijin42 (talk) 16:03, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Looks good. North8000 (talk) 16:48, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Done Gaijin42 (talk) 18:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I just made some needed edits to this section to generally clean it up, make it more encyclopedic, and more inline with WP:MOS. One thing to keep in mind is that even with a developing event, "time" is relevant. I personally make the effort to write as if someone is reading the article 5-10 years after the events took place, so I include dates for the sake of context and continuity. Additionally, blogs are not considered reliable sources and there is no "strength in numbers". Blogs for the most part are opinion based editorial from writers who are rarely experts in the field they are commenting on. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:09, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Blogs are not reliable sources for facts, but they are reliable sources for the opinions of the writers. Strength in numbers is applicable there to say that multiple people have commented on a particular issue or idea. Elpais is not a blog, it is the #1 circulation paper in spain. Re your specific comparison to 2d printing "similar tech" etc, that is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR as nobody has raised that comparison directly. (whearas many people have raised the comparison to deCSS, which you removed completely. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Given a choice of facts versus opinion, I think WP is better off with the former. Elpais was removed because the citation was not in English. Its use made verifying it as a WP:RS more difficult than a citation in the same language as this version of Misplaced Pages. Plus there was already another citation, but upon further review, the paraphrasing of the article content did not match its context, so it was removed.

--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Verification being difficult is not a valid reason for removal. However, regarding your specific concernt about the paraphrase, I agree that was a loose paraphrase on my part ~~, but certainly it is notable that downloads in Spain, Germany, and the UK exceeded those of the US? Perhaps there is a better way to phrase that. WP:CALC gives us good latitude here I think.~~ Gaijin42 (talk) 16:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

On further search for sources, it seems I was incorrect. per BBC "According to Defense Distributed, most of the 100,000 downloads have been in the US, followed by Spain, Brazil, Germany and the UK.". However, I do think international interest is sourceable, we just need to build consensus on what we can accurately say from the sources. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, its just that the article said that "Spain lead in downloads followed by...". It was a qualitative, but not a quantitative statement. Maybe I read it wrong, but no actual numbers were quoted for those countries. Plus it was just the statistics from that one download source/server. Weren't their others around the world? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

they were the download numbers from defense distributed, prior to the takedown, subsequently things are up on piratebay, etc, but that is much less trackable except by how many seeds are available or whatnot. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:08, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

"Influence of Technology" section

So I guess my suggestion from back in March (here) finally has some merit... :) Here was my suggestion for the overall article organization...

Option 4 - Gun Control - the encyclopedic article that a lay person and/or someone unfamiliar with firearms would expect to findf Using the Racism article as a template of sorts...

Lede - describing and defining gun (firearm) control, the practice and the spectrum (from no control to total ban)
Infobox - Continue using the current one of "Gun politics by country".
Definition/Types - A preface to help clarify that it comes in several forms such as Legislative, Cultural, Commercial, Practical, and Ecological (such as with hunting restrictions and the limitation on the number of rounds loaded at any given time).
Influence of Technology - Firearms (as a practical and/or functional device) have evolved, albeit it slowly, but certain developments have had a greater impact than others, i.e. the self contained metallic cartridge, this made changeable magazines possible even though they did not come along until decades later.
History - Starting with a modest section on the "Origins of firearm control' (a mini-lede of sorts similar to what Just recommends) followed by the history of the views towards gun control as it has progressed and evolved in light of technological changes. Starting with the creation of black powder in China there has been some form of control (or attempt to do so) over this technology. As Just correctly states, "We've been constraining populations from having arms (bows, swords, etc.) since the dawn of civilization, this is just a subset of a bigger concept".
See Also - A see also section of other gun politics and gun related articles
Further Reading - Maybe a couple of notable books on the topic of gun control
References - Standard References

The caveats to this format hopefully are obvious, but my intention is that as clinical of an approach to the subject matter as possible be taken or that the references permit.

3D printing is far from the first technological advancement that has affected gun control. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 03:32, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Magazines and cartridge changes certainly affected firearm effectiveness, but I fail to see how they affect gun control. They did not affect the ability of governments to restrict access to guns, nor to people to circumvent those restrictions? Gaijin42 (talk) 16:33, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, good thoughts overall. But I have some concerns that the "advancements" field so immense and only 1/2 germane that you might have it get too big and off-topic. North8000 (talk) 18:32, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Points taken, so let me better explain my viewpoint. In my opinion the relationship between technology and gun control is not only causal, but bi-directional. The 3D printer is one example, another is the purported development and adoption of "single user gun locks" meaning guns that only fire for the authorized user. This type of legislation has yet to pass, but if it does its likely that someone will develop a practical cost effective version of this technology. Yet another, as I've previously mentioned, is changeable cartridge magazines. These made machine guns possible and there is a significant amount of gun control legislation associated with them. Gaijin, the 1934 NFA is one example.

In other words, gun technology developments have lead to new gun control legislation, and vice versa, gun control legislation has lead to (or inspired at the very least) technological developments in firearms. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 21:52, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you're right, and I don't see anything objectionable in your list. Obviously the transition to brass cartridges was enormous... I guess I just am not sure what the goal of this discussion is. Are there changes that need to be made? Shadowjams (talk) 09:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, I agree. My comment was more of "something to keep in mind" while doing it. North8000 (talk) 10:26, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

First off, I agree that the section on 3D printing is important and should stay, but its WP:RECENTISM and gives undue weight to this particular technological development.

Next, as such, the section needs to be expanded for better historical perspective. Granted, this will take some effort and research in order to properly cite and I'm willing to pitch in, but I don't wish to be alone in the effort.

I don't think that a "technology" section needs to be "huge" or "all inclusive" over the history of firearms, but some of the more obvious legislation like the 1934 NFA should be mentioned. My dilemma is how to best go about this and not cross over into WP:SYNTH or WP:OR territory. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 13:29, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

On your general sections approach, I don't have a huge deal with (though I think there may be difficulty gaining consensus on the specific content of some of those sections). On your specific technology suggestions I do have some issues. While you are right that the 3d issue has a possible problem with recentism, there are MANY MANY sources all over the political, geographical, pro/anti gun spectrum discussing the 3d issue and its effect on gun control, so undue is an easy barrier to overcome. In addition to the 20+ sources we have, I could probably add another 30-40. On a personal level, I agree with you regarding the bi-directional nature of technology and legislation. However, there issues with that in the article :

Its not really sourced. Certainly we can find sourcing on the history of gun control, and different changes and loopholes, but its not being discussed as "the effect the technology has had on gun control" - I don't object to your info, but it belongs just as part of the history of gun control.
the evolutionary change happens for every industry. Oh, you cant charge super high interest rates anymore? Guess what, we have a new ATM fee! US tax rates too high? Shell corporations in Ireland! Its not really notable - its expected!
Its not an apples to apples comparison. You are discussing evolutionary changes in gun features. My section is discussing a revolutionary change in gun manufacturing. Ultimately gun control (either who has the guns, or what features guns have) "works" (to whatever degree it does) because there is a relatively small pipeline of design->mfgr->distribution->sales, where real proliferation can only happen after the sales step, and the number of designers/mfgrs is small, so they are easy to investigate/punish . 3d printing upsets this entire paradigm (and not just for guns).
1. a similar argument would be comparing improvements in book binding techniques and printers ink, or censorship laws, to ebooks where suddenly everyone is a potential publisher.
3d printing is going to be a global revolution. While it may have issues with recentism, your changes have issues with globalism (re NFA etc)
Still don't see how things like brass cartridges has any effect on gun control (other than creating the possibility of magazines, which were then ultimately regulated)
1. I could see an argument for something like the bullet button, or other "not technically an assault weapon" where changes can be directly sourced as a cause and effect to legislation - but those really aren't technology in my mind, just finding of loopholes. (Certainly that can be a notable topic itself though, ineffectiveness of gun control due to loopholes and how easy it is to change designs to circumvent specific restrictions)
2. Also could see info on microstamping, or personalized guns, but again I see those as specific gun features, or gun control features - they are not affecting the effectiveness of the concept of gun control. (For example, if both features became universally mandatory, and all mass produced guns implemented them, 3d printing would (once tech matures) still allow complete circumvention either by making a whole firearm, or by replacing specific parts)

Gaijin42 (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2013 (UTC) Gaijin42 (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

ALL excellent points and I agree with your analysis, its not a cut and dry issue, much like the main issue itself. I also think I better understand your point that this particular technological step affects "distribution" versus the nature of the guns themselves like the metallic cartridge or the changeable magazine did. I guess in terms of the "big picture", I view them as all related, but I understand your distinguishing of the type and nature of the technological changes. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you should break out specific discussions about 3d printing, because that's unique enough of a subject with wikipedia issues that it would be cleaner to discuss it separate. Shadowjams (talk) 02:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Protection has expired

... and I think we've all had some time to cool off. Can we do something to get rid of those tags now? PraetorianFury (talk) 17:28, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I think that depends a lot on the "something" :) I am open to many possible changes, but my core viewpoint has not changed significantly -

the nazis used gun control meme is widespread and notable (multiple court opinions, NRA, many conservative politicians/pundits, gun rights advocates, etc)
Halbrook is one of the more notable and reliable (read expert on gun control) representatives of that group, and his paper has numerous cites back to the primary sources, and is itself cited
- The argument that the paper is self published has I think been handled completely, but even if someone wants to maintain that argument, Halbrook's status as an expert on gun control covers the explicit exceptions in WP:SPS
- Similarly, I don't think anyone is arguing that he is still "just a lawyer with a website" or any some such regarding his notability/expert status in gun control. (Although certainly an individual with a strong POV)
Objectively the nazi's did use gun control as one of their tools. Certainly not the only tool, perhaps not an essential or even necessary tool, but nobody disagrees that they did use it.
- Harcourt's rebuttle to Halbrook specifically conceeds this point. His arguments are if the nazis/hitler were in general pro-gun-control or not, or if the overall policy of the German law at the time was gun control or not - That is an orthogonal argument to the factual assertion that gun control was implemented against the jews or not.
- the counterfactual argument "Even if the jews had had weapons, it wouldn't have mattered" is probably (mostly) true, but obviously wasn't true enough that the Nazis didnt care about confiscating weapons to make their jobs easier/less risky.
This fact is reliably sourced to multiple primary and secondary sources establish both its factual-ness, and notability as a fact
This topic might be undue as part of an overview of the holocaust, but as one of the more notable instances of gun control is not undue for this article
There are certainly gaps in addressing other notable uses of gun control ("positive" or "negative" uses) in this article, one that should be addressed by adding/fleshing out those sections, not by removing this one (A reverse WP:OTHERSTUFF argument)
The extended argument that nazis use gun control, therefore modern implementors of gun control are (acting like) nazis, should not be brought up as part of this (historical) section, but could be used in the arguments section, along with responses from others (harcourt, salon, etc) who are highly critical of that argument.

Therefore, I would strongly object to any large scale removal of this content, but if there are particular quotes or points you want to tweak, or possibly remove, or specific things that need additional sourcing, I am certainly open to collaboration and consensus building on that. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:05, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It is contentious, inappropriate, and partisan to place this material under the History section of this article. That the Nazi disarmament is part of the history of gun control is not a remotely neutral version of history, and it appears in exactly zero neutral, non-partisan history books. It is an argument made by one side in a debate. This is a highly contentious, partisan version of history, and by placing this material under a 'History' heading, you have violated Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. The material needs to be moved to the "Studies, debate, and opinions" section. — goethean 18:44, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The "Associations with Totalitarianism" section was under "Arguments" before User:ROG5728 re-organized the article in a highly partisan way in early March. — goethean 18:52, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

We should probably have the description of what happened under history, and opinions about it separately. North8000 (talk) 18:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Nazi rule is not ~~usually~~ considered to be an episode in the history of gun control by neutral historians. The idea that it is is an anti-gun control argument. Therefore, the entire Nazi section needs to go under "Studies, debate, and opinions". — goethean 18:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

How would it not be:

Government regulation of the sale and ownership of firearms. (Dictionary.com definition of gun control)
Regulation of the selling, owning, and use of guns (Websters definition of gun control)

This isn't that complicated. North8000 (talk) 20:52, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The nazi stuff is just a tendentious argumentum ad hitler against gun control is only accepted by a tiny fringe. (You support gun control? You know who else supported gun control? Hitler! End of discussion.) TFD (talk) 21:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

That's sort of a straw man. I think that the discussion of the moment is just about inclusion of the facts of what happened in that section. Arguments etc. could be a seperate discussion. North8000 (talk) 21:32, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

How is objecting to the addition of information that is only used by people making a strawman argument a strawman argument? TFD (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

If there is thought behind that, please explain. Thanks. North8000 (talk) 23:56, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not at all a straw man argument; on the contrary, it is simply calling a spade a spade. The only conceivable reason for this article to examine what some anti-gun activists call gun control in Nazi Germany to the exclusion of every single other culture and time period throughout all of history is to associate gun control with Nazis. In earlier versions of this article, this fact was actually explicit, because the section, with the same content and sources, was calling "association with authoritarianism" and was under the "Arguments" section. In March, ROG5728 simply moved that section to the history section. This move was illegitimate and a clear violation of Misplaced Pages's non-negotaiable neutral point of view policy. As such, the section must be moved immediately, North's and Gaijin's perfectly predictable and perfectly partisan arguments notwithstanding. — goethean 00:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

North's citation of Webster's (in addition to proving exactly nothing) is a clear violation of WP:SYNTH. Get your ideas published in a reputable journal and then we can cite them. — goethean 00:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

@goethean : Are there any "neutral historians" that argue to the contrary? No. However, there ARE IN FACT neutral histories discussing this (The book Kirstallnacht already used as a ref for example, or the several german histories I linked (now archived)). Further, as I already stipulated, this is a relatively minor item in the context of the holocaust. But this is not an article about the holocaust, it is an article about gun control, and MANY works on gun control bring it up. You are declaring those opinions to be fringe, but I would contest that opinion, and say you must bring that up as an RFC/DR on that specific issue, as it has been raised widely. The fact that gun control is highly contentious and that there exists a great controversy does not make one side fringe, particularly not when the advocates of that side are steamrolling the opposition in SCOTUS. As much of this debate was happening in the context of the pending Heller decision, it is instructive to note that the "anti-nazi-gun-control-meme" arguers were soundly defeated, and those making the meme argument were victorious (particularly the NRA and Halbrook who was cited directly by SCOTUS). Therefore, the burden of proof and argument that they are fringe lies with you. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:35, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

There are no neutral historians writing about gun control that mention Kristallnacht. The only scholars who mention it in connection with gun control are scholars explaining the belief system of the extreme right. TFD (talk) 23:02, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

You are declaring those opinions to be fringe, but I would contest that opinion, and say you must bring that up as an RFC/DR on that specific issue, as it has been raised widely.

ROG5728's moving he section from "arguments" to "history" was illegitimate. Why is his move a-okay but mobing it back requires and RFC/DR? Answer: it doesn't. The current location of the section is a flagrant violation of a core Misplaced Pages policy and must be rectified immediately. — goethean 00:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Your assertions are based on nothing but your personal opinion and original research. Our arguments are backed by sources. You wish to dispute those sources, and such must be done through a wider consensus. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

My basis is in addition to Gaijin42's point and different. Something that obviously falls within the topic is germane. (see the two common dictionary definitions above) Trying to set up more stringent standards for inclusion of something that clearly falls within the topic is not right. North8000 (talk) 00:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The standard is WP:WEIGHT - we put in what experts think is important not what was on the Glenn Beck show last week. If we include gun ordinances of 1930s Germany, then we should include the laws of other states and other decades as well. TFD (talk) 00:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Something that obviously falls within the topic is germane. (see the two common dictionary definitions above)

Sure. But Nazi Germany is not germane to the topic of this article. — goethean 00:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The gun control of Nazi Germany is. North8000 (talk) 01:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

your assertion that only those of the extreme right mention is not neutral. Further, even if true, it is a highly notable view and all notable viewpoints must be included.

Kristallnacht, p68
48 hours of Kristallnacht
Courts, Law, and Justice
thee complete history of the holocaust", p68 "Perhaps to help insure the Jews could not fight back in the future, the Minister of the Interior issued regulations against Jews' possession of weapons on November 11. This prohibited Jews from "acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority"
Same quote "The Racial State : Germany, 1933-1945" p92
Der Weg in Den Krieg 1938 (The road to war in 1938) : p28 (bad google translate) "On the morning after Kristallnacht , when Goebbels ordered by Hitler arrest of "25-30000 Jews" in ... let fear of possible attacks the Jewish Berlin Police President Helldorf "the Jews completely disarm"
Reichskristallnacht: Antisemitismus Und Judenverfolgung Im Dritten Reich (Kristallnacht : Anti-semism and persocution of thew Jews in the Third Reich) "The finding of Jewish shops, stores and warehouses must be made in consultation with the competent mayors and mayors, also the itinerant activity. All Jews are to be disarmed ."
Reichskristallnacht (Wilfred Mairgunther)p74 : (translate) "All Jews are to be disarmed . Shoot at resistivity immediately to the ground"
"Reichskristallnacht" in Bremen p43 : On the fateful proved the two sentences: "All Jews are to be disarmed . Shoot at resistivity immediately to the ground. "Staff leader Römpagel testified at the party later trial, he was, as he ...
Die Rolle des Propagandaministers Joseph Goebbels im Licht seiner Tagebucheinträge vom 10. November 1938 bis 17. November 1938 " The term Kristallnacht was a ... also ordered that he complete disarmament of Jewish citizens"

Gaijin42 (talk) 01:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

None of your sources are about gun control, they are about the holocaust. Only highly ideological writers on gun control mention the German laws. TFD (talk) 01:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Excellent movement of the goalposts! Earlier the argument was that history books didn't cover it. POV on the part of sources is perfectly acceptable. As I can find dozens perhaps hundreds of gun control books discussing this topic I look forward to hearing your next objection! Gaijin42 (talk) 01:36, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

POV on the part of sources is perfectly acceptable.

As is patent bullshit, apparently. — goethean 01:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Regardless, maybe we should have only the straightforward facts in the history section and move the rest to the opinions section. North8000 (talk) 11:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The fact that this article focuses on the Nazi disarmament of the Jews and attempts to spin it into part of the history of gun control using talking points created by anti-gun control activist is not a neutral presentation of the facts. It is allowing anti-gun control activists to write this article in partisan, non-neutral way. The entire Nazi section must be moved from history. Your placing it in the history section is a flagrant, actionable violation of Misplaced Pages's non-negotiable neutral point of view policy. — goethean 13:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Historical facts do not have a POV. That those facts are primarily (but NOT exclusively as the several sources I have linked show (how many have you shown again? oh thats right, none.) interesting to those with a certain POV does not make the facts themselves POV. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Try that line in a history article, and you will get laughed at and schooled. The selection of which facts to present (in this case, your presenting the facts selected by those with a well-documented flagrant pro-gun ideological commitment) is the primary vehicle for POVs. The idea that gun control is primarily associated with authoritarian regimes is a thesis of the right-wing media and of anti-gun control activists. The presence of the material related to Nazis in the history section continues to be a flagrant, clear volation of Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. — goethean 14:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

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