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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Carolmooredc (talk | contribs) at 22:21, 20 June 2013 (→WP:OR/Synth argumentation in biography: editors have not made a policy based case for bad edits; maybe that's obvious to all the editors who haven't bothered to respond). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Presenting theories as "fact" ?

In the article Outer space an editor at 15.211.201.82 noted the phrase "Observations now prove that it also contains dark matter and dark energy" is an "Extraordinarily claim despite unsettled science". I did a cleanup changing "Observations now prove" to "Observations indicate it may also contain" based on dark matter and dark energy being "hypothetical"(diff) (as stated in their WP articles). Another editor basically reverted the edit (diff) claiming "Nothing extraordinary at all about the claim that outer space contains dark matter and dark energy; it's the overwhelming consensus of astronomers based on the observations." The sources being used say "implying" and "evidence for" and "Theorists still don't know what the correct explanation is"... so do not seem to support "proven" or "are the dominant components of space" (tried pointing out that the sources being cited do not contain a definitive statement but the editor kept reverting diffdiff). The editor's main premiss seems to be "its ok to boil down theoretical work to "facts" since its a boiled down lead summary and astronomer A and B are pretty sure it exist so it can be a presented as a fact" (I would also note the article body presents dark matter and dark energy as fact). To me "astronomer A being pretty sure" and "astronomer B being pretty sure" should not be joined together to imply a conclusion C "prove" or "are" or "90% of the mass is in an unknown form" or "is the dominant component of space" per WP:SYNTH. Also seems obvious to me theoretical work should not be presented as "fact" in any part of Misplaced Pages. Same editor has expressed these opinions before per: Way/Archive 3 (section Supermassive black holes). Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 23:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Editor Fountains of Bryn Mawr, you are on the right track here. Keep it up. I would go further than you have already gone: I would favour a form of statement such as 'Speculative theoretical interpretations of observations suggest that ...'Chjoaygame (talk) 23:42, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I didn't claim in article space that the overwhelming consensus of astronomers is that dark matter exists; I used that to explain my edit. I've checked the four astronomy textbooks which I've had handy in the last few days (Freedman & Kaufman: Universe; Zeilik & Gregory: Introductory Astronomy & Astrophysics; Sparke & Gallagher: Galaxies in the Universe; and Binney & Tremaine: Galactic Dynamics), which are, respectively, a non-major undergraduate textbook, an undergraduate major introductory textbook, an upper level undergraduate/lower level graduate textbook, and a graduate textbook. All state the existence of dark matter as a fact but that its nature as unknown. Therefore, I don't think that stating its existence as a fact is original research or unsupported by the sources at all.

In response to the objections raised and after further thought and reading, I modified the debated sentence in the lede of outer space to read "In most galaxies, 90% of the mass is in an unknown form, called dark matter, which interacts with other matter through gravitational but not electromagnetic forces.", with a citation to the Freedman & Kaufman textbook. (This is my second edit cited by Fountains of Bryn Mawr.) What about this wording, or any wording in the article, is original research?

Part of the issue here is that there is a disconnect between whether dark matter exists and what it's made of. The former is well established; the latter is very much unknown. The objections to stating that dark matter exists as a fact largely, to my eye, come from conflating those related by separate statements. Again, I tried to clarify that in my last edit to outer space. However, this is all a content dispute, and bringing the discussion here (instead of Talk:outer space) just fragments the content discussion.

Certainly, the details about the evidence leading astronomers to this conclusion merits considerable attention, as it has on dark matter. However, I think that weaseling the existence (not the nature) of dark matter gives readers the wrong impression of both reality and what the sources say.

Of course, the Misplaced Pages articles cited above are not reliable sources; the textbooks and journal articles I'm citing are. —Alex (ASHill | talk | contribs) 03:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

The existence of dark matter is fairly well settled at this point, but we can always phrase things a bit cautiously. a13ean (talk) 03:41, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Since there is a scientific consensus that dark matter exists, any qualification would cast doubt on this and therefore be POV. TFD (talk) 23:22, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Men's rights movement

There is some disagreement over the WP:OR policy as it applies to men's rights movement (MRM). Two editors argue that we should use sources that don't deal with the topic of the article, i.e., the men's rights movement. To give you one example: An editor added this section about custodial sentencing. The source – a parliamentary debate and speech by Philip Davies – doesn't say anything about the MRM or any of its representatives. There is also no indication that Davies is a men's rights activists or someone who speaks for the MRM. So there is no connection. The editor who added the section argues that it "fits directly under mens rights" (I assume he meant "men's rights movement") and that sources need not say anything or make the connection to the men's rights movement. Similarly, another editor argued that it isn't against the WP:OR policy to use generic statistics on alimony and divorce from sources that do not discuss the MRM ("MRM makes claims about divorce. Neutral divorce statistics are brought in.")

Can uninvolved editors clarify if it is or is not a violation of WP:OR and WP:Synth to add statistics from sources that say nothing about the topic of the article (examples of stats and conent copied from other articles )? For instance, men's rights activists make claims about alimony, rape, dowry laws and a variety of other issues. Is it okay to add alimony, rape and dowry death statistics from sources that don't deal with the men's righs movement at all and do not make that connection? Can we just transfer the statistics from False accusation of rape, alimony and dowry death etc. to Men's_rights_movement#Rape, Men's_rights_movement#Divorce, and Men's_rights_movement#Dowry laws? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Let me guess... another case that hinges on defining exactly what the "Men's rights movement" actually is... yes? Blueboar (talk) 20:50, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

There are many scholarly sources which define the men's rights movement and discuss the claims in relation to several issues. It's just that some editors believe that it isn't necessary that sources say anything about the topic and that we should fill the article with generic statistics about anything that editors think might be related. For example, they state that it would be nice to have a prison section in the article and use sources about sentencing although the sources do not discuss sentencing in connection with the men's rights movement, e.g. what the MRM thinks or does about it. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 22:38, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

All sources used should be about the men's rights movement. Otherwise we are conducting original research and also we are providing arguments in favor of or against the movement. TFD (talk) 22:57, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Is MoStudies Review a publisher of review articles?

Talk:Mormon_Studies_Review

I.e, is it a reasonable summary of the following sources to say the publication Mormon Studies Review is to be a review journal?
New editor quoted at publisher's website:

... is to be model in part on Reviews in American History. We’re going to chronicle and assess the field, in other words, not contribute to it in terms of original scholarship. It will be a place where scholars and other interested readers can quickly, conveniently find great minds engaging one another about the current and future state of several fields.

City newspaper's religion reporter:

"At this point, the biggest challenge might be trying to keep up with the variety and volume of scholarship about Mormonism. ... will provide an overview and analysis of all the publishing in the field...."

Student newspaper at the university affiliated with the publisher:

is to help fill a void within the ever-growing field of Mormon studies. The Review will include reviews of books, essays and other scholarly publications related to Mormonism and the field’s growth and development. The first issue of the Review is expected to be available this coming winter. .... The executive director of the Maxwell Institue, M. Gerald Bradford, is eager to see the Mormon Studies Review take its place in the field of Mormon studies. ... I expect it will soon become a major voice in tracking and commenting on developments in the growing area of Mormon studies.".

altho WP is not an RS, here's a quote from the WP article on review articles

'Review articles are an attempt to summarize the current state of understanding on a topic. They analyze or discuss research previously published by others, rather than reporting new experimental results. They come in the form of systematic reviews and literature reviews and are a form of secondary literature. Systematic reviews determine an objective list of criteria, and find all previously published original experimental papers that meet the criteria. They then compare the results presented in these papers. Literature reviews, by contrast, provide a summary of what the authors believe are the best and most relevant prior publications.

Sources are linked to on talk page.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Mystery solved? - Tho the 3 sources above speak in terms presuming interlocutors think, ah, a review journal, frustrating-to-a-WP contributor, they decline to #!@&$ say the d*mned term. But alas! at long last informed commentary has beached up on the sandbed of my iPod from someone who didn't get the memo they weren't supposed to pronounce the actual technical term. The journal's publisher had announced, "Benjamin E. Park, a PhD candidate in history at the University of Cambridge, will serve as associate editor...." And here are the words of Ben, himself: LINK:

There have been an explosion of journals covering the field, to the point that one could say there is more quantity than quality. We have seen an increase in quality books, with many more to come. There are conferences throughout the nation (and lately, to a very limited extent, world), and academic chairs and programs cropping up at prestigious universities.

That’s where the Neal A. Maxwell Institute comes in. In a (sub)field seemingly so decentralized, the Institute is trying to establish a geographic core. This will primarily be through their new journal, The Mormon Studies Review. Aimed, in part, to be a Mormon version of Books and Culture, the annual journal will offer book reviews, review essays, and discipline, methodology, and topical articles that assess recent trends in the many different disciplines that live under the eclectic umbrella of “Mormon studies.” Written for educated lay readers as well as experts, it finds one of the last remaining niches left in the Mormon studies world: a review journal that is a mix between New York Review of Books and an interdisciplinary version of Reviews in American History.

I have the privilege to serve as Associate Editor, and I am genuinely thrilled to participate in such an impressive and important project.

Question to the notice board: Can WP term the journal a review journal?--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 17:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Based on the sources I have seen (and—with full knowledge that this is the OR noticeboard!—supplemented my own knowledge of what it publishes) I think it could legitimately be called a "review journal". Good Ol’factory 21:58, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
• Comment This seems like a logical supposition. For what it is worth, the first edition of the new Mormon Studies Review has not been published yet, so its final form at publication is actually not know.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:25, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
• Comment Yes it is a review journal. Journals published by theologians can be rs if they are written to academic standards. TFD (talk) 06:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
• Comment No, it's not a review journal, even though it is obviously an academic journal. Review journals publish reviews, not other stuff. Note that many journals with the word "review" in their title are not review journals as such. This journal is said to opublish "reviews of books, essays and other scholarly publications", which is much widers than what a review journal does. In fact, Reviews in American History on which this journal is (partly) to be modelled, is not a review journal itself either. RiAH publishes reviews of books and that is something very different from publishing literature reviews or systematic reviews. The difference is subtle perhaps, but real. --Randykitty (talk) 08:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Cmt - I believe there is - or at least SHOULD be - a "Strunk & White" Corollary to wp:OR: if the sole difference between the description of an activity and of the categorization of its actor is that between active- and passively voiced constructions, the distiction in so-called "grammar" between the two doesn't amount to OR. An ed. board whose membership inc. a who's who inc. all the chairs of Cowboy poetry studies, as well as the North American Wrangler's Assoc.'s Resident Scholar in Cowboy Poetry, and whose journal is to refrain from publishing new researches but instead concentrate on reviews of published scholarship as well analysis of the state of the field--well, such a pub IS a review journal.

Thus, I dunno about RAH but putatively to claim that The American Historical Review pub'd recently by UChig (and now by Oxford) for the AHA - the

only journal that brings together scholarship from every major field of historical study. The AHR is unparalleled in its efforts to choose articles that are new in content and interpretation and that make a contribution to historical knowledge. The journal also publishes approximately one thousand book reviews per year, surveying and reporting the most important contemporary historical scholarship in the discipline. LINK

whose Wiki article sez

Each year approximately 25 articles and review essays and 1,000 book reviews are published.

- ..... To sniff that the AHR inn't no review journal, while marvelously pedantic-SOUNDING,would I'd imagine be a false - slash - pretty much unsupportable, hence highly controversial, assertion (see, eg, "Literature review"). No?--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 15:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: We still don't have a reliable source calling this a "review journal," so I still do not support that categorization. Additionally, its own descriptions include a lot of things that are outside the purview of a review journal. I think we're still better off calling it an "academic journal." — Bdb484 (talk) 15:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Really? <self-mocks> What content in vol 22 spoiled the whole apple barrel?

OK there's a lot of free-standing commentary and the like in that iteration. But there was less in vol 23 - and in any case what is at issue at the moment is the stated purview for its upcoming numbers (say, vol 24-on--unless this vol is be renumbered No. 1).--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 17:27, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're trying to say. — Bdb484 (talk) 01:34, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

The website you are describing is to FARMS Review: "apples" to the upcoming MStudies Rev. "oranges." (which will be made clear to those who refer to the "History" section of the Wikiarticle now being discussed).--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:42, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Per this cite (at Cambridge):

Redgrave will publish a new review journal in American history and related disciplines which will carry timely, in-depth review-essays of scholarly and non-fiction trade books and of reprints, teaching and research materials. Reviews in American History contains 160 pages per issue....

So indeed apparently yes the term "review journal " is used in academia to refer to a journal that publishes more than the occasional review article (despite what the unsourced WPdia article Review journal claims: that such a journal must publish exclusively such articles). Such pedantry has arisen solely on Misplaced Pages and in my humble opinion WP cannot trump via in-house technical categorization what we may allege to be too loose of definitions used by the preponderance of the sources, esp. when these sources happen to be prestigious academic journals.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Gasteracantha cancriformis mating

Hello, I'm Surfer43. I have observed the species Gasteracantha cancriformis mating and have uploaded it to commons at http://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Gasteracantha_cancriformis_mating_in_Summer.webm. I want to include it in the article Gasteracantha cancriformis, but doing so would probably require a new section with text sourced from http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/Gasteracantha_cancriformis/. However information from that page is contradictory to the video(For example, my video disproves that the species has only been observed mating in a labratory, disproves that the species only mates in Winter(I suppose it doesn't if you don't trust the datestamp on it), and generally adds more information about it.) I know information from this video is not from a verifiable, reliable, published source, but it seems ridiculous to write knowingly incorrect information that contradicts the video. I don't know how to get this new finding about the species "published". I am asking for any advice. Thanks, Surfer43 (talk) 21:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Or perhaps the video could count as a verifiable reliable source for "been observed in the wild" and "in summer". Surfer43 (talk) 22:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

This would fall under original research, so there's nothing you can really do on Misplaced Pages. I'm not really familiar with journals pertaining to arthropods, but what you could do is look for a researcher studying this or related species and drop them an email. They may be able to help you out. As long as you sound professional and polite, usually researchers are very helpful towards people who share their interests. – Maky 23:01, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I see no reason that makes it obligatory for you to include that text, and especially that makes it obligatory to include all of its information. Just put your video on the WP page, update the page with whatever is sourced that you trust, while not writing anything of your own research, and meanwhile contact some arachnologist (is this the word?) to let them know. I suppose they could be interested in your video. --Cyclopia 15:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I put the video on the page. Thanks for the advice. Surfer43 (talk) 17:43, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Theistic Evolution

The article on Theistic evolution seems to contain an awful lot of OR and synth based on primary sources. I've removed the worst of the material, lists of adherents and proponents that were either completely unsourced or synth. There is a discussion going on on the talk page. Would appreciate it if more editors would examine the article and weigh in. There is a valid topic here, but the article seems to have become a coatrack article on a vague concept. Thank you. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Commonwealth & Somaliland

With respect to the Commonwealth of Nations membership criteria page, a user has added the following paragraph on Somaliland, a secessionist autonomous region in northwestern Somalia:

 Somaliland: unilaterally seceded from Somalia claiming succession to British Somaliland, which became part of Somalia shortly after independence in 1960. Its independence remains unrecognised. Delegates were sent to the 2007 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, and applied to join the Commonwealth under observer status, although the application has not been granted.

He claims that this paragraph is both neutral and accurate. I've explained to him here that it is obviously neither since a) Somalia did not exist prior to its July 1, 1960 independence day, and b) the former British Somaliland protectorate actually united with Italian Somaliland on that day to form the new nation of Somalia (per the CIA: "Britain withdrew from British Somaliland in 1960 to allow its protectorate to join with Italian Somaliland and form the new nation of Somalia" ). British Somaliland was not later incorporated into Somalia as insinuated in that paragraph above. The third problem is the statement that Somaliland's "independence remains unrecognised" since that already implies that the region is an independent country, when it is in fact only a self-declared independent state. "Self-declared independence remains unrecognised" would therefore be a more neutral presentation.

Given this, I proposed the following modification:

 Somaliland: internationally recognized as an autonomous region of the Federal Republic of Somalia. Those who call the area the Republic of Somaliland consider it to be the successor state of the former British Somaliland protectorate. Having established its own local government in Somalia in 1991, the region's self-declared independence remains unrecognized by any country or international organization. Delegates from the territory were sent to the 2007 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, and applied to join the Commonwealth under observer status, although the application has not been granted.

The user rejected this proposal and instead added two non-neutral links from advocacy websites to support his argument ("Qaran News" & "Somalilandpress"; c.f. ). Note that these partisan sources themselves don't claim that British Somaliland "became part of Somalia shortly after independence in 1960" (c.f. , ). Please advise. Middayexpress (talk) 15:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:OR/Synth argumentation in biography

Note: A version of this query was posted on WP:BLPN where no one responded except regarding procedural matters; two noninvolved editors at Editor's assistance said it would not be Forum Shopping to bring it here; editor in question objected.

WP:OR reads in intro: To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented.

• At this diff I removed as argumentative for a bio a sentence written by User: SPECIFICO giving Milton Friedman's opinion on an economic issue which contradicted bio subject Jesus Huerta de Soto's view, but the source does not mention Huerta de Soto.
• User:Lawrencekhoo reverted it, writing: If a claim is made about economics, it's entirely appropriate to present the mainsteam view.
• Srich reverted it writing: as presented, particularly with "however", it is WP:OPED. Article is a BLP, not economics subject..
• SPECIFICO puts back another version of same material with more refs that do not mention Huerta de Soto. [Added later to clarify, language which I believe should be removed: Chicago School economist Milton Friedman, whose positivist methodology was antithetical to the Austrian approach, foretold the 1970s stagflation in his 1967 Presidential Address to the American Economic Association.
• Note that talk page discussion was here.

Given that the editor has been going through a lot of biographies of Austrian economists he disagrees with, it needs to be made clear to him that adding this kind of WP:OR is against policy. Such debates belong in articles on the subject in question (for example, Economic forecasting), not in bios. If they were allowed there, many bios would just become argument fests of sources not mentioning the subject at all. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 13:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

What is the issue to be resolved and why is this being posted here? Seems that the contentious edits (mentioned as DIFFS) are old and perhaps displaced by subsequent edits. Wasn't the issue hashed about in the BLPN and on the talk page? Is this notice intended to bring up the "Other issues" we see on the BLPN, or are we just to focus on the Friedman/Soto/Krugman/Joe Blow comparisons? Because mention of "the editor" disagreements is brought up, is this a NPOV issue? Just who is invited to participate in this discussion? – S. Rich (talk) 18:55, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You put up the synth tag at this diff and have not removed it. If you changed your opinion, you should have said so at BLPN and/or taken off synth tag. Obviously this posting only talks about one issue. OK, I added language I want removed, if that's what you meant. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 21:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Your many noticeboard postings are futile because you do not state policy-based questions on which you seek editors' comments. Srich and I have each independently pointed this out here, others have done the same elsewhere, and in my opinion this is the reason there has been virtually no meaningful result to any of your forays on the noticeboards. When editors feel that a posting is mere venting, personal rumination, or attack, they make no response. That's been my reaction even when you ramble on about me personally. Take it for what its worth. Maybe time for a breather. SPECIFICO talk 22:00, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

What part of this quote above do you not understand? WP:OR reads in intro: To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented.

You and User:Lawrencekhoo have had ample opportunity to defend your edits on policy matters and have not done so. That's because you do not have a policy based case.

If other non-involved editors have not responded, it may be that it is so obvious SRich and I are correct they don't think they need to. That's my reading, anyway. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 22:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference The future of the modern Commonwealth was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Krugman, Paul (Feb. 15, 2007). "Who Was Milton Friedman?". New York Review of Books. Retrieved 10 June 2013. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
3. Friedman, Milton (March, 1968). "The Role of Monetary Policy" (PDF). American Economic Review. 58 (1): 1–17. Retrieved 10 June 2013. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
4. Murphy, Robert. "The Chicago School versus the Austrian School". Retrieved 12 June 2013.

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