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Revision as of 02:31, 2 June 2006 by TKK (talk | contribs)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)You have added sources to the article. The first and third sources you mention do not state anything of the kind which would support your statement. If you think that they do, please quote the text here. The second source you have provided is a an email from a Rangers fan to the letters page of the Guardian. That is not a verifiable source of primary information, and cannot be used in Misplaced Pages. --TheMadTim 11:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
TheMadTim indeed. "We are correctly castigated as a support for throwing bananas at Mark Walters 16 years ago. As a Club and as fans, we have apologised unreservedly for that dreadful incident." - The source a Celtic fanzine "the problem of racism is not restricted to the bad days of the 1980s, when Rangers' Mark Walters was jeered and had bananas thrown at him simply because of his race." - source UEFA Also the fact that the letter written to the Guardian has been printed and not been rejected means that yes it is a verifiable source as the paper would not print an accusation such as this if there was no truth in it.
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A reference to what is described as a Sectarian Message board, but I would describe as the message board for Rangers fans is made by an editor, you need to be a member to read the thread in question here is a copy of what was posted:
Topic: More Lies about Mark Walters?? (Read 499 times) brunswick Ticketer
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More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Thread Started on Today at 1:56am » I do not have any memory of rangers fans being banned from Ibrox for racially abusing Mark Walters. In fact there was no racial abuse of Mark from Rangers fans. I going to challenge this shyte. But would be interested to get feedback from the good bears on here. If this has been posted in the past my apologies.
Reference: http://www.le.ac.uk/footballresearch/resources/factsheets/fs4.html
Extract below:
6.2 By the late 1980s, a number of high profile clubs with little previous history of signing black players made significant moves into the transfer market in this direction. At Liverpool, John Barnes was signed for a fee of nearly £1 million from Watford, while at Leeds United, Rod and Ray Wallace were captured from Southampton. Viv Anderson and Paul Ince moved from London's Arsenal and West Ham, respectively, to Manchester United whilst in Scotland, Mark Walters left Aston Villa to join Glasgow Rangers, a team idolised by a largely Protestant following, and with a hooligan element espousing Loyalist and far-right causes (See, Murray, 1984). The Glasgow club banned some season ticket holders following racist abuse aimed at Walters. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged Laisser les autres viennent après nous. Nous accueillons la chasse ! LeMagnifiqueLeGuens11 Double Grand Poster
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #1 on Today at 2:01am » and the barras didn't sell out of bananas on jan 2nd 1988 ?
>:(
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #2 on Today at 2:13am » If this is untrue then surely the club must be able to take legal action against the University? The club must have records of who has been banned and for what. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged Papa Hardcore Senior FF Poster
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #3 on Today at 2:13am » Nor do I have any memory of Walters being racially abused. I was however only 5 when he signed for Rangers.
What I do know though is that, although he has cited a book that was published in 1984 to substanstiate his point, when Walters never arrived in Glasgow until 1987.
Furthermore, when attempting to confirm the year Walters signed, I came across this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/Mark_Walters
Racism was more of an issue in the game in Britain in the late 1980's and Walters was subjected to racism at many grounds, the problem was not even limited to the away support and Rangers had to ban some of their own supporters for racially abusing Walters
And reference 4, as you'd expect leads to your link above.
I say go for it, mate. And if you are in anyway successful, i'd recommend you contact wikipedia and inform them of the false reference. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged "Penny's place, her crummy room. Her dansette crackles to Jimi's tune. I don't care, I taste Ambre Solaire. Her neck, her thighs, her lips, her hair. Ring a ding ding ding... I'm going down. I'm coming around." L'informateur 1st Team Regular
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #4 on Today at 2:18am » I have just mailed them to ask politely if they have further evidence or references. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged Il n'y a pas d'equipe comme le Glasgow Ronjeurs Pas un seul, et il n'y aura jamais! ozo Senior FF Poster
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #5 on Today at 2:21am » there was 1 fan banned from ibrox i believe and no widespread abuse at all. just 1 racist nothing more
on the other hand tens of thousands of tims racially abused him yet NONE were banned from celtic park and no action whatsoever from the authorities Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged Papa Hardcore Senior FF Poster
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #6 on Today at 2:35am »
Today at 2:21am, ozo wrote: there was 1 fan banned from ibrox i believe and no widespread abuse at all. just 1 racist nothing more
on the other hand tens of thousands of tims racially abused him yet NONE were banned from celtic park and no action whatsoever from the authorities
If your correct that it was a single fan who was banned then it is still factually incorrect.
But still all it takes is one little statistic stretched and teased sufficiently to suit your agenda, then repeat it often to the masses enough and it becomes gospel. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged "Penny's place, her crummy room. Her dansette crackles to Jimi's tune. I don't care, I taste Ambre Solaire. Her neck, her thighs, her lips, her hair. Ring a ding ding ding... I'm going down. I'm coming around." Le Thomas d'Originale Double Grand Poster
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #7 on Today at 2:40am » Can we expect Mark Walters to help defend the club here?
I know he's an honorary member of the RST but it'd be great if he could get involved here.
PS - for the record, the researched who made that report at the University is a mhank. Now there's a surprise.
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #8 on Today at 2:49am »
Today at 2:18am, L'informateur wrote: I have just mailed them to ask politely if they have further evidence or references.
I too, have mailed and asked for a complete reference for specific statements of fact. I also asked them to confirm whether the University is standing by the accuracy of all unreferenced statements in the article and specifically related to Mark Walters. I have also asked for the name of the articles author/s.
Lets see what we get back from them. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged Laisser les autres viennent après nous. Nous accueillons la chasse ! spincity 1st Team Regular
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #9 on Today at 3:03am »
Today at 2:13am, Papa Hardcore wrote: Nor do I have any memory of Walters being racially abused. I was however only 5 when he signed for Rangers.
What I do know though is that, although he has cited a book that was published in 1984 to substanstiate his point, when Walters never arrived in Glasgow until 1987..
I think you might be reading that wrong. I think the 1984 reference is specific to the "hooligan element espousing Loyalist and far-right causes"..
You may have already seen this, but here's some stuff courtesy of Jaaz:
Posted by Jazz: With regards to Mark Walters, it was Gerry Britton not Gerry Crainey who made the quote in Scotland On Sunday. It's given below with a number of other quotes relating to their shame.
Gerry Briton:
While a figure skater longs to be showered by petalled projectiles from the viewing galleries following a performance, the launching of articles from the terraces onto the field of play is predominantly problematic for a footballer. As an apprentice professional with Celtic back in January 1988, I was appalled at the hideous racist goading of Rangers’ black winger Mark Walters during his Old Firm debut at Celtic Park. I was even more sickened on the morning after the match when I was told to help clear the Parkhead trackside of the dozens of bananas that had been thrown onto the field by so-called Celtic supporters intent on upsetting the on-field focus of the Ibrox wing wizard.
Mark Walters from the book “After The Villa” by Dave Woodhall (Heroes Publishing).
“There was all the publicity about the game; on the morning I was watching TV and this Celtic fan was standing in front of a fruit stall saying ‘This is what Walters is going to get’. When the match was on I had all sorts chucked at me, fruit, pigs feet, darts, the lot. If I’d picked them up I wouldn’t have had to buy any food for a month.”
Not the View fanzine issue 5 issued circa March 1988:
On page 4 the lead topic on the 'As we View it column' is about racism:
'After the last old firm game whcih you may remember we won 2-0 we received a number of letters from celtic fans who were sickened by the racial abuse directed towards Mark Walters of Rangers. At Ibrox, once again the spotlight will be on the Celtic supporters and no doubt the press will be delighted if they can get a story to splash all over the back pages about a repeat of this sickening abuse. We at NTV hope that they will not get the story and celtic fans will restore our reputation for being the best fans in the country (no laughing now) which was so badly tarnished because of the antics of a few (THOUSAND) racists.
It is up to all of us who feel strongly on this issue to make it claer to the racists their antics do nothing but harm to the image of the club and its supporters. Besides ask yourself who looks stupid; Mark Walters or somebody making monket noises or throwing bananas about'
There then follows on page 12 the letters page under heading 'Shame' a letter from a coloured supporter Robert Robertson of Grangemouth it is too long to repeat in full but edited lowlights are:
'I am a black celtic supporter'
'Unfortunately the spectacle I witnessed while standing at the celtic end during the last game left me sadly disillusioned '
'Despite media coverage to the contrary the debut of Mark Walters allowed a barrage of racial hatred to pour forth'
'I was both devastated and saddened by disgusting comments about black players , monkey chants and racist songs and attempts at degredation by the symbolic thowing of bananas'
There you are. Couldn't be any clearer and from the mouths of their very own.
Friday 19th August 2005.
Graham Roberts and Joe Miller were interviewed by Hugh Keevins in the Daily Record. Speaking about the following days Rangers v. Celtic game and of the "excessive side" of Old Firm rivalry they said the following:
Quote:
(Miller) "Im not sure that the more excessive side of the Old Firm rivalry is a healthy thing for the game or the country. And I've thought that since the day my dad's fruit and veg store in the east end of Glasgow was sold out of banana's because of Mark Walters' debut for Rangers at Celtic Park."
Graham Roberts played in that game and tried his best to diffuse a worrying situation. He said "I went over to the old Jungle at Celtic Park, where I was never a particular favourite, and ate as many of those bananas as I could."
Stuart Cosgrove, Daily Record May 13 2004
As for Celtic fans, they cannot seriously believe that a few flying potatoes have so deeply offended their sense of identity.
It was after all Celtic fans who disgraced their club and its principles, by throwing bananas at Mark Walters.
In The Alternative View of week commencing Monday 28th February 2005, Tommy Sheridan stated that he stopped going to Parkhead is because of the racial abuse of Mark Walters when he made his debut at the piggery.
Ian Wright quote from BBC website, 15 Feb 2000:
This came after he and Blinker were racially abused by Celtic fans.
"I felt I was caught up in a war crisis in Kosovo not involved in a football result that wrecked John Barnes' career as Celtic manager. Some so-called fans........covered my car in spit, they were shouting obscenities at myself and Regi Blinker........it was stone-age stuff from reptiles."
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #10 on Today at 3:08am » Email sent asking for references/source of information regarding the season ticket bannings. Not holding my breath for them though. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged brunswick Ticketer
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #11 on Today at 3:16am » For me Celtic FC played its part in the most shameful day in scottish footballs history. As a club they allowed thousands of celtic supporters through the turnstilles that day dressed in gorilla suits and carrying large amounts of bannanas!
Today at 3:03am, spincity wrote:
Today at 2:13am, Papa Hardcore wrote: Nor do I have any memory of Walters being racially abused. I was however only 5 when he signed for Rangers.
What I do know though is that, although he has cited a book that was published in 1984 to substanstiate his point, when Walters never arrived in Glasgow until 1987..
I think you might be reading that wrong. I think the 1984 reference is specific to the "hooligan element espousing Loyalist and far-right causes"..
You may have already seen this, but here's some stuff courtesy of Jaaz:
Posted by Jazz: With regards to Mark Walters, it was Gerry Britton not Gerry Crainey who made the quote in Scotland On Sunday. It's given below with a number of other quotes relating to their shame.
Gerry Briton:
While a figure skater longs to be showered by petalled projectiles from the viewing galleries following a performance, the launching of articles from the terraces onto the field of play is predominantly problematic for a footballer. As an apprentice professional with Celtic back in January 1988, I was appalled at the hideous racist goading of Rangers’ black winger Mark Walters during his Old Firm debut at Celtic Park. I was even more sickened on the morning after the match when I was told to help clear the Parkhead trackside of the dozens of bananas that had been thrown onto the field by so-called Celtic supporters intent on upsetting the on-field focus of the Ibrox wing wizard.
Mark Walters from the book “After The Villa” by Dave Woodhall (Heroes Publishing).
“There was all the publicity about the game; on the morning I was watching TV and this Celtic fan was standing in front of a fruit stall saying ‘This is what Walters is going to get’. When the match was on I had all sorts chucked at me, fruit, pigs feet, darts, the lot. If I’d picked them up I wouldn’t have had to buy any food for a month.”
Not the View fanzine issue 5 issued circa March 1988:
On page 4 the lead topic on the 'As we View it column' is about racism:
'After the last old firm game whcih you may remember we won 2-0 we received a number of letters from celtic fans who were sickened by the racial abuse directed towards Mark Walters of Rangers. At Ibrox, once again the spotlight will be on the Celtic supporters and no doubt the press will be delighted if they can get a story to splash all over the back pages about a repeat of this sickening abuse. We at NTV hope that they will not get the story and celtic fans will restore our reputation for being the best fans in the country (no laughing now) which was so badly tarnished because of the antics of a few (THOUSAND) racists.
It is up to all of us who feel strongly on this issue to make it claer to the racists their antics do nothing but harm to the image of the club and its supporters. Besides ask yourself who looks stupid; Mark Walters or somebody making monket noises or throwing bananas about'
There then follows on page 12 the letters page under heading 'Shame' a letter from a coloured supporter Robert Robertson of Grangemouth it is too long to repeat in full but edited lowlights are:
'I am a black celtic supporter'
'Unfortunately the spectacle I witnessed while standing at the celtic end during the last game left me sadly disillusioned '
'Despite media coverage to the contrary the debut of Mark Walters allowed a barrage of racial hatred to pour forth'
'I was both devastated and saddened by disgusting comments about black players , monkey chants and racist songs and attempts at degredation by the symbolic thowing of bananas'
There you are. Couldn't be any clearer and from the mouths of their very own.
Friday 19th August 2005.
Graham Roberts and Joe Miller were interviewed by Hugh Keevins in the Daily Record. Speaking about the following days Rangers v. Celtic game and of the "excessive side" of Old Firm rivalry they said the following:
Quote:
(Miller) "Im not sure that the more excessive side of the Old Firm rivalry is a healthy thing for the game or the country. And I've thought that since the day my dad's fruit and veg store in the east end of Glasgow was sold out of banana's because of Mark Walters' debut for Rangers at Celtic Park."
Graham Roberts played in that game and tried his best to diffuse a worrying situation. He said "I went over to the old Jungle at Celtic Park, where I was never a particular favourite, and ate as many of those bananas as I could."
Stuart Cosgrove, Daily Record May 13 2004
As for Celtic fans, they cannot seriously believe that a few flying potatoes have so deeply offended their sense of identity.
It was after all Celtic fans who disgraced their club and its principles, by throwing bananas at Mark Walters.
In The Alternative View of week commencing Monday 28th February 2005, Tommy Sheridan stated that he stopped going to Parkhead is because of the racial abuse of Mark Walters when he made his debut at the piggery.
Ian Wright quote from BBC website, 15 Feb 2000:
This came after he and Blinker were racially abused by Celtic fans.
"I felt I was caught up in a war crisis in Kosovo not involved in a football result that wrecked John Barnes' career as Celtic manager. Some so-called fans........covered my car in spit, they were shouting obscenities at myself and Regi Blinker........it was stone-age stuff from reptiles."
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #12 on Today at 4:22am »
Today at 2:13am, caddy wrote: If this is untrue then surely the club must be able to take legal action against the University? The club must have records of who has been banned and for what.
Legal action, your having a laugh aren't you mate, our good name means nothing to Murray. I mean after backing down at UEFA this would be a guilt edge chance for him to get a little credibility back with the bears, but needless to say it just won't happen >:( « Last Edit: Today at 5:33am by bleu de parc de rois » Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged bdloyal Regular FFer
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #13 on Today at 5:56am » I used to sit at EE98 (i think) in the East Enclosure. There were two fat skinheads three or four rows down who I remember shouting at him. They were told to shut the f#ck up and I dont really remember it happening after that, although it has to be said that I was rather pished most of the time. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged Bonjour YCY. I'm Rangers, Scottish, British and Protestant. GIRFUY. Witney Devil 1st Team Regular
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #14 on Today at 6:09am » I used to sit in the Govan Front and I remember one isolated incident (occuring towards the back of the section I was in) of a drunk shouting abuse towards MW very early on in his Rangers career. This led to a bit of a rammy between him and the fans around. Never heard anything else during the remainder of MW's time with us other than at away games from away supports.
I sat among the Hearts support in the main stand at Tynecastle on the day he first played there and if there wasa time for justice then that ground should have been closed there and then. Never forgiven Hearts for that. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged bleu de parc de rois Double Grand Poster
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #15 on Today at 6:17am » I never heard any sort of abuse directed at MW from any Rangers supporters. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged Russell_Nash Double Grand Poster
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #16 on Today at 7:02am » great work from Jaaz Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged Why does the sun come up? Or are the stars just pin holes in the curtain of night, who knows? What I do know is that because you were born different, men will fear you... try to drive you away like the people of your village. Le blue Senior FF Poster
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #17 on Today at 8:16am »
Today at 2:13am, caddy wrote: If this is untrue then surely the club must be able to take legal action against the University? The club must have records of who has been banned and for what.
if this untrue a strange statement indeed..
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #18 on Today at 8:38am » IIIRC one drunk called him a lazy black bastard, was caught and banned. Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged Allez Les Rongeurs silvermachine Full FF Squad Member
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Re: More Lies about Mark Walters?? « Reply #19 on Today at 8:47am »
Today at 2:21am, ozo wrote: there was 1 fan banned from ibrox i believe and no widespread abuse at all. just 1 racist nothing more
on the other hand tens of thousands of tims racially abused him yet NONE were banned from celtic park and no action whatsoever from the authorities
Im of an age that I remember when Walters played at Ibrox and the above post is accurate.