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Jesus

Jesus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Reviewers: Please read this article's FAQ before reading the article. If you disagree with anything in the FAQ, please voice your concern at the article's talk page, not here.

This article became a good article in early May, and also received a copy edit from the WP:GOCE later that month. After much work, I believe this article is ready for FAC.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments

Appearance

  • Language, ethnicity and appearance section: For appearance, you basically state that there is no proof of what Jesus looked like, which is totally fair. But there is general consensus out there of what a man living at that time in that place would probably look like. Can you include a sentence or two that covers what the experts believe is a best guess as to what Jesus probably looked like? That section left me wanting to know. upstateNYer 02:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Done. I added some brief info. Scholars agree that Jesus likely looked like a typical Jew, and had a tough appearance due to his work and travels.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 04:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
      • I'm looking more for what a typical Jew looked like. Everybody reading that will think of how they see the typical Jew. The typical Jew of 2000 years ago, though, didn't look like today's Jew I'm sure. upstateNYer 17:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
        • I'm just wondering whether this might be heading for too much speculation. The ideas that Jesus probably looked like the typical Jew and was probably sinewy are already just speculations based on his ethnicity and lifestyle. To define the "typical Jew of 2000 years ago" would be another round of speculation, wouldn't it? Isn't this going to end up as speculation-squared? That and the fraught issue of ethnic stereotyping. --Stfg (talk) 17:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
    • A scholarly attempt was made here, which is probably worth citing. --99of9 (talk) 19:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Agree. Don't let's use that Discovery Channel-style story from Popular Mechanics! Johnbod (talk) 12:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Hamiltonstone

SupportComment. Very interesting, looks promising. My support is qualified by this not being my field and it certainly is a subject that begets an enormous literature. I am trusting that the literature is fairly represented.

  • Last para on chronology: "Astronomers since Isaac Newton have tried to estimate..." There is no explanation of why on earth astronomy would be relevant, leaving this reader confused. How does astronomy enter the picture? How are they coming up with specific actual dates? This jars with the clarity of preceding material that sets out reasons for estimates of years etc. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The article is structured by separating the new testament account from all other accounts or historical views, and I am not quite sure about the justification for the separation of Josephus and Tacitus from what are essentially other sources of the same approximate date (the new testament documents). Can an editor clarify why this is? hamiltonstone (talk) 00:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
    • There is a big distinction among scholars between the "Christ of faith" (the Jesus described in the gospels) and the "Jesus of history". This article meant to be a general article that covers all views on Jesus, including the Jesus of the New Testament, the historic Jesus, and the Jesus of other religions (such as Islam).--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The article states 'Bart D. Ehrman states that it is unsound to argue that since Jesus had an immense impact on the society of his day, one might have expected contemporary accounts of his deeds; Ehrman adds that although Jesus had a large impact on future generations, his impact on the society of his time was "practically nil"'. I think this sentence needs reworking, but it depends on what exactly Ehrman is saying. My interpretation is that he is not "adding" something but explaining the error of the argument. If that is correct, a better formulation would be: 'Bart D. Ehrman argues that although Jesus had a large impact on future generations, his impact on the society of his time was "practically nil". It would therefore be unsound to expect contemporary accounts of his deeds.' hamiltonstone (talk) 11:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • These sentences puzzle me: 'Jonathan Waxman of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism writes that Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah have "crossed the line out of the Jewish community". Reform Judaism holds that anyone in the Jewish community "who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate" ' I felt they gave undue weight to one particular view in contemporary groups, and in any case seemed to express a view to which an alternative had never crossed my mind (that some Jews would see Jesus as messiah). Because of this, I was then further confused by the association of this view with "Conservative" Judaism. When I clicked on the link, i learned that the grtoup in question is North American only, which is not really consistent with the worldwide view of the article subject. All in all, this bit didn't work for me, and seems to provide unnecessary detail to elaborate that which is already stated in the first two sentences of the section. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:54, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • In a top level article of this gravity that is already long, why is there coverage of the UFO religions, particularly one that has fewer followers than the population of a single town, or Religious Science, which is similarly tiny? I would also question the inclusion of the Jefferson Bible stuff. In contrast, most of the other "other" inclusions make sense; gnosticism for its historically significant role in religion; Nietsche and Russell as major infuences on western modern thought, and Hinduism, because of the global significance of the religion. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Any particular reason the version of the bible being quoted is anachronistic (eg. "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee...")? hamiltonstone (talk) 11:28, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Image review by FunkMonk

  • All images have proper licenses, but there is one problem. This file obviously has wrong author information, and needs to be fixed somehow. At the least, the author field should say unknown, I'm sure it is PD old, so it can still be used either way. It seems the uploader thinks he owns copyright for taking the picture, but that is incorrect. Apart from this, no problems, and I moved one locally hosted image to Commons. Maybe the origin of the image can be determined through Google's new image recognition tool. FunkMonk (talk) 00:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Looking again, all the PD old images need the dual PD old/PD US license tag, as that has become common practice now. FunkMonk (talk) 01:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Really? I thought just the PD-old-100 tag is sufficient, because it says "This work is in the public domain in the United States..." --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, you are right, for some reason I was synonymising PD-old with PD-70 in my head, but none such are even present, so PD-100 should be enough. FunkMonk (talk) 01:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
It's sufficient for Misplaced Pages and Commons. But some countries don't have the equivalent of Bridgeman, so when a user has explicitly released their photographic work as PD-self, that should still be noted on the file page to allow external non-US reusers who cannot rely on PD-Art. I've amended it. --99of9 (talk) 11:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Review from Cliftonian

Support from Cliftonian. After a number of read-throughs and comments and a few amendments on my own part, I now feel comfortable with giving this my backing. I've capped my comments below. Well done FutureTrillionaire! —Cliftonian (talk) 08:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Cliftonian
This is already a fine achievement on what many would see as one of the most important articles of all. Here are some comments which I hope will help on the way to FA status.
  • I've made a few tweaks during my look through, please feel free to revert if you don't like these.
  • In a lot of places you have multiple references together where they might be better consolidated into one reference ("The years of Jesus' ministry have been estimated using several different approaches." for example)
  • 4 citations for one statement is overkill in my opinion. I've removed two of the refs in the example you mentioned, and I believe that was the only incident of 4 refs used together. There are still places where 3 citations are used for one statement, but I think 3 is acceptable. However, if you want, I can trim those as well.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Some references are out of numerical order; not terrifically important in a practical sense but I would have a quick run-through towards the end of this process just to bring them in line
  • Yes, that is generally the reason why it happens. But it can be easily rectified by putting previously used refnames first where you have reference clusters. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
  • One thing I noticed on my first read-through is that the word "states" (as in "Evans states that") is used very often, creating jarring repetition in places. If I were you I would try to reword in places where this construction appears more than once within a few sentences or within a single paragraph. This problem is particularly evident in footnotes a, b and c, which, while informative, are somewhat clunky prose-wise, using "X states" repeatedly. I appreciate the intent might have been to lend equal weight to each statement by avoiding equivocal wording, but perhaps alternatives can be found; "X says", for example, or "X writes" or "according to X".
  • I've moved a lot of wikilinks around and added some; the first time a topic of interest is introduced, such as God the Father or the Crucifixion, it should be linked there, and preferably not again.
  • In "Relics associated with Jesus", the Shroud of Turin image is a bit big for my liking. On my screen I have a lot of whitespace. Do you think we can rearrange this somehow?
  • One last thing—I noticed that most of the images lacked alt text, so I went through and added it.

I hope this helps. I will come back to this review later as well. Well done so far and keep up the good work! —Cliftonian (talk) 07:59, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Just a suggestion: I know there are already a lot of pictures here and Peter's denial is an important part of the gospel, but I think in the "Trials by the Sanhedrin, Herod and Pilate" section, an "ecce homo" image (that is, one of Pilate presenting Jesus to the mob) might be better than the present image of Peter denying Jesus, both as an illustration (the present denial image, when thumbnailed, is far from clear) and as a complement to the narrative. I was thinking particularly that Antonio Ciseri's depiction, linked here, might be suitable. What do you think? Have a great Sunday and a good week ahead now. —Cliftonian (talk) 04:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The infobox gives the year of death as "30–33 AD" while the first sentence of the lead gives "30–36 AD". I presume the former is what we are going with, judging from the footnote, but I just thought I'd bring it up here to be sure. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The first sentence of "religious perspectives" says that "Apart from his own disciples and followers, the Jews of Jesus' day generally rejected him as the Messiah, as do Jews today." But then lower down, in "Jewish views", we briefly mention Messianic Jews. As the article says, whether these are part of Judaism or not is open for debate, but they certainly claim themselves to be Jews, and most of them are indisputably of Jewish ethnic stock. What with the equivocal nature of the word "Jew", we also have to consider Christians of Jewish descent, and Jews who convert to Christianity. I could go on but I think the point is made.
  • I think we should look at alternative wording on the last clause of the sentence. Perhaps "as do most Jews", "as do the vast majority of Jews", "as do mainstream Jews", "as do adherents of mainstream Judaism" or something along these lines? Just a suggestion as always.
  • I'd just like to say also that I feel a lot of progress is being made on this article, well done. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree. The article is getting better. Thanks for your comments and copyedits. As for the "religious perspectives" sentence, I think the best solution is to change the wording to "as do the vast majority of Jews today". The numbers for Messianic Jews are very small, and I am guessing ethnic Jews who have converted to Christianity are in a similar situation.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure about the caption for the Transfiguration image. The caption is presently "Transfiguration of Jesus depicting him with Elijah, Moses and three apostles, by Carracci, 1594", which seems to imply grammatically that it is the transfiguration that is by Carracci rather than the depiction. Perhaps something along the lines of "Carracci's 1594 depiction of the transfiguration of Jesus; he converses with Elijah and Moses while three apostles look on, amazed"?
  • Peter's denial is mentioned twice; first at the end of the "Agony in the Garden, betrayal and arrest" section, and then again at the end of the first paragraph of the following section. It isn't necessary to recount the denial twice in such a short passage of text. I have altered this myself as I think explaining it here would be overly complicated, I hope you don't think this presumptuous; feel free to revert if you disagree
  • I think it's still worth mentioning that all four Gospels mention Peter's denial, and I felt that little sentence bookended the paragraph quite nicely, but I don't feel too strongly on it. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:21, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Points by Johnbod

On a first look, the article seems pretty good for a subject with an enormous amount of literature, with very divergent views on many aspects. In an article like this nuances of wording and emphasis are very important to get right.

  • Lead. " Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee" - to most readers, especially the young, "teacher" means schoolteacher. Not sure what a better phrasing would be.
  • "Most Christians believe that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, performed miracles, founded the Church, died by crucifixion as a sacrifice to achieve atonement, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven, from which he will return. The majority of Christians worship Jesus as the incarnation of God the Son, the second of three Persons of a Divine Trinity. A few Christian groups reject Trinitarianism, wholly or partly, as non-scriptural" - "most" and "the majority" seem likely to be misleading by too much qualification as these key doctrines are common to almost all Christians, or at least the churches they affiliate with - well over 99% one would think.
  • Last para of lead - do we really need this in the lead? Especially "Bahá'í scripture almost never refers to Jesus as the Messiah, but calls him a Manifestation of God", whatever that means?
  • "Thus, in the Christian Bible, Jesus is referred to as "Jesus of Nazareth" - "Christian Bible" introduces unnecessary complication. New Testament or Gospels will do.
  • "namely the last week of the life of Jesus in Jerusalem, referred to as Passion Week" - it is the annual commemoration that is usually "referred to as Passion Week". Just "namely the last week of the life of Jesus in Jerusalem, referred to as his Passion" or something.
  • "tekton". The article twice deals with the original profession of Jesus, and Joseph, once in "Early life and profession" and in "Profession and literacy" in the historical section. Both draw from the text at Historical Jesus, I think mostly written by me. There is a degree of repetition - I'm not sure if this is justified or not. The second version has phrasing issues: "In the New Testament, Jesus and his father were identified as τέκτων (tekton) (Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3), traditionally translated from Koine Greek into English as "carpenter". However, some scholars argue that tekton is a generic word (from the same root that gives "technical" and "technology") that could cover makers of objects in various materials, even builders. Others have argued that tekton could equally mean a highly-skilled craftsman in wood or the more prestigious metal, perhaps running a workshop with several employees." This makes it sound as if there is or has been some sort of controversy over these issues, which isn't entirely the case (apart perhaps from Crossan's unhelpful autobiographical comments). Does anybody disagree that "tekton is a generic word ... that could cover makers of objects in various materials, even builders"? What this account misses is the strong early tradition that working with wood was what Jesus did, as from Justin Martyr, mentioned in the first section. Essentially the sources are not clear, & there's not enough material for a decent scholarly row about it.
  • "Ministry section" "Public ministry" is a perhaps a better phrase, that might be used once or tice among the many occurrences throughout the article. No mention of the apostles, or their recruitment. Some sort of summary of what modern scholarship makes of the growing body of "disciples" is reallly needed. What did the term mean - roughly how many, & doing what? Tricky I know.
  • Last Supper - without opening the matter too far, some sort of mention that commemoration & re-enactment of this event became central to much Christian worship is needed I think, with a link to Eucharist.
Ok on comments above. Johnbod (talk) 13:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

-more coming Johnbod (talk) 12:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

  • "After the trials, Jesus makes his way to Calvary by a route known traditionally as the Via Dolorosa" - this is rather more than we actually know, isn't it? I believe that route has changed somewhat over the centuries. Also "makes his way" sounds rather casual and voluntary, and we have Christ Carrying the Cross. Maybe: " After the trials, Jesus is led to Calvary carrying his cross; the route traditionally thought to have been taken is known as the Via Dolorosa".
  • A link or note for "gall" would be useful - what do scholars think this was?
  • The summary of the Gospel accounts while Jesus is on the cross seems too brief, though I realize the accounts vary in fiddly ways. As it is there is no explanation of the "events" (not the best word perhaps) the centurion is impressed by, so that bit reads oddly.
  • "The Acts of the Apostles describe several appearances by Jesus after his Ascension" - these are presented as visions etc rather than flesh & blood on the ground "appearances", & this should be made clear.
  • I've changed "end times" to "last days" as more neutral; something longer might be better "last days of the world" or something. "End times" is only used by Evangelicals in my experience.
  • "but since then skeptics have emerged who question the reliability of the gospels" - "skeptics" is much too loaded. Links needed here: Biblical criticism, maybe others.
  • "The third quest, which began around the 1980s, was unique for its greater emphasis on the methods of mainstream historical scholarship" - a very dubious assertion as phrased, imo, even if it can be sourced to those involved. More neutral phrasing needed. What the first two phases were is not explained.
  • I wonder if the paragraph starting "Donald Akenson has argued that,..." is helpful. This is an immensely complex area on which seas of ink have been expended for centuries, & I'm not sure this works as a useful summary of anything much. Akenson is a specialist in a totally different area of history (probably without much relevant linguistic background etc) who has written wrote two books on the subject, and far more on other subjects.
  • In the current size and balance of the "Historical views" section, I think more is needed on the older areas of Biblical criticism that underly current debates, which receive most of the coverage. A very brief summary with links to things like Q source would be good.
  • "Most Christians believe that Jesus was both human and the Son of God. While there has been theological debate over his nature, Trinitarian Christians generally believe that Jesus is the Logos, God's incarnation and God the Son, both fully divine and fully human." A little expansion & links re the debates in the Early Church needed on this.
  • The section on Islam implies, but should state clearly, that Islam regards the whole New Testament as inauthentic, except where the Qu'ran agrees with it.
  • "Depictions" section really needs 2-3 sentences on the development of the "standard" image, & major variants. Also the influence of "miraculous" images in forming the general depiction. I will try to add these.
  • Maybe some more general points later - are all the works in "Bibliography" cited in the article? I'd really like to see one or more reviews of this by a specialist, clergy or otherwise. Johnbod (talk) 14:54, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
  • All the above covered, although the points in the footnotes j & k would be better in the text, but I won't fuss about that. Johnbod (talk) 02:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Looking at the footnotes: f just repeats a; a,b,f,g,h all cover dating, with some more repetition. I suspect some streamlining would improve them. Note h is almost all a quote, which should be shown as such, with the verse (3:1). I'm not sure what the citation there covers - probably should go up to the main text. I still want to rejik the depictions a bit. Johnbod (talk) 02:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Review by Quadell

Resolved items

As an amateur but serious New Testament scholar who has read many of the article's more important sources, I can attest that the material and tone fairly represents the scholarly consensus, while giving fair weight to the majority Christian interpretation of history. I'm very pleased with this, and it must have taken a lot of work. Well done. The prose is excellent overall. It is difficult to find unclear or clunky writing in this article. Thanks to FunkMonk for the image review.

Lede
  • Per WP:LEDE, the lede should summarize all parts of the article and should not include important information not covered outside the lede. As such, many ledes do not require any citations, since the same facts are cited where they are more fully expressed in the article body. This lede has a lot of citations, far more than other controversial FAs. (Compare Evolution, L. Ron Hubbard, Psilocybe semilanceata, Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, etc.) Most worryingly, most of the cites used in the lede are not used outside the lede. Should these citations instead be placed in the body wherever the statements they support are most fully expressed?
Etymology of names
  • A mention is made of Jesus being called "Joseph's son" in Luke 4, but not of his being called "Mary's son" in Mark 6. Most scholars deem Mark 6 to have been written earlier, and it is a more unusual way of referring to a Jew in that time period... wouldn't it be more worth a mention?
  • "Yahweh saves", "Yahweh will save", and "Yahweh is salvation" are all extremely close in meaning. Do we need all three? Also, I believe the etymology to be fairly uncontroversial. Are three cites needed?
Chronology
  • Everything in the first paragraph represents scholarly consensus. Why is Levine named and singled out? You could find dozens of scholars as respected (Meier, Brown, and on and on) who would fully support the sentence.
  • "According to many scholars, the Crucifixion occurred before the conversion of Paul..." Do any scholars doubt this? All early sources, including Paul's own description of his conversion, are unanimous in this.
  • Related: the sentence implies that we know the crucifixion occurred in 33 or earlier because it came before Paul's ministry, which started in 33-36. But both sources estimate the start of Paul's ministry based in part on the understanding that it couldn't have started before the crucifixion in 33 or so. The causation is backwards.
Life and teachings in the New Testament
  • Nowhere in the article are extrabiblical Christian accounts of Jesus mentioned. (Gospel of Thomas, infancy narratives, Gospel of Mary, etc.) They don't deserve detailed treatment in this article, but I do think it would appropriate to mention their existence, and the end of the introductory section of this supersection is probably the best place (after "...than the canonical gospels do.") Might I suggest the following? "Some early Christian groups had separate descriptions of the life and teachings of Jesus that are not included in the New Testament. These include the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Peter, and the Apocryphon of James, among many other apocryphal writings. Most scholars consider these much later and less reliable accounts than the canonical gospels." One possible source would be Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament (1997), pp. 835-840.
  • This supersection gives almost no space to Jesus' miracles. It only mentions his healing the sick in a single sentence as a way of describing his teachings, and the same is true for his driving out of demons. These miracles make up a large section of the gospel accounts of Jesus' life and ministry, and are the subject of voluminous critical commentary (much of Meier's A Marginal Jew volume 2, for example). It seems a lack of balance to not have a section on Jesus' miracles, as we do for his teachings, transfiguration, arrest, childhood, and other less-prominent facets of Jesus' life.
  • I've added some more info on miracles to the "Canonical gospel accounts" section and the "Teachings, preachings, and miracles" section.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
    I'm torn here. First off, the material you added is excellent. But I still feel like Jesus' miracles deserve their own section. (I'm sure I don't have to convince you of their importance.) On the other hand, the text incorporates it well with Jesus' teachings in the last sentences, and the section is excellent. So I still think it would be better to have miracles in it's own section, but I think it deserves to be featured either way, so it's not an objection. – Quadell 22:36, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Canonical gospel accounts
  • This sentence is very important, and it's important to get it right: "Elements whose historical authenticity are disputed include the two accounts of the Nativity, as well as the Resurrection and certain details about the Crucifixion." The sentence could be improved. It's not wrong... but the strong majority of scholars believe the infancy narratives contain no historical information, while most believe the crucifixion depicts in broad strokes a historical event. ("Certain details about" are almost weasel words, in that they could be used to show scholarly doubt about anything in the gospels.) I would instead mention the elements that the largest majorities of scholars feel are historically unreliable, which could include birth and infancy stories, the ascension, narratives of speeches in John, (much of John, actually), the last supper, and the Sanhedron trial. (I don't mean to insist that these specific details be used, but only to show that the sentence can and should be improved.)
  • I changed it to: "Elements whose historical authenticity are disputed include the Nativity, the Resurrection, the Ascension, some of Jesus' miracles, and the Sanhedrin trial, among others." Is this good enough?--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:13, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
    • It is better. Still, I have two suggested improvements: (1) Consider linking these terms if it is the first time they are mentioned outside the lede, since the reader might not be familiar with them. (2) Consider wording it as "Most scholars give less historical weight to descriptions of...", which I think is a slightly more accurate and smoother wording. (Afterall, no one disputes that they are "authentic" in the sense of being authentic 1st-century Christian narratives.) – Quadell 12:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "John 14:10 stresses the importance of the words of Jesus and attributes them to the authority of God the Father." While true, this seems out of place. Other sentences around it concern the overarching similarities between gospel accounts, not individual statements in just one. I think the idea is covered in "Teachings and preachings", and so can be omitted here.
Baptism and temptation
  • I'm not sure Redford's interpretation here is particularly notable. Perhaps it would be more pertinent to mention this desert temptation was situated by the synoptics as an important prelude to the beginning of Jesus' teachings. There would be many citations one could find for that.
  • I think it would flow better logically if "The gospel of John does not mention the baptism or the temptation." were placed at the end of this section. It might be useful to include a statement that John depicts Jesus' conversations with JtB (though not his baptism) and his calling of the disciples as the relevant preludes to Jesus public ministry -- if a good cite for that can be found. Raymond Brown's ABD volume on John makes that observation, I'm sure. Or you could not, your call.
  • I moved the Gospel of John sentence to the end of the paragraph, and added the Baptist's testimony (John 1:32). Jesus' first disciples according to the fourth gospel is already described in the Public ministry section.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 02:30, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Public ministry
  • The sentence beginning "However, John's Gospel..." is also covered in the "Final entry into Jerusalem". It fits better there, and really doesn't add anything here.
Teachings and preachings
  • Paragraph 2 is problematic. Let's start with "The New Testament presents the teachings of Jesus not merely as his own preaching, but as divine revelation." The New Testament as a whole rarely mentions the teachings of Jesus outside of the gospels, so this should be "The gospels present...", but the gospels do not present the teachings of Jesus in a consistent way. This really should be "John's Gospel presents...". That would be accurate. Three of the four quotes in this paragraph are from John, after all, and the fourth is presented in a somewhat misleading way. (It leaves off the second half of the sentence where Jesus describes this "divine knowledge" as shared with others. Besides, it concerns his knowledge more than his "teachings and "preachings", and is only obliquely related to the section.) The wording of this paragraph also leads the reader to believe that the gospels do not show Jesus as having a less-than-divine knowlege, as is stated in Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32. So I would make the paragraph limited to John's depiction of Jesus' authority, and perhaps it could mention the synoptics' characterization of Jesus' teaching as consistently inspiring awe in those who heard them, if you want to include the other gospels.
Proclamation as Christ and Transfiguration
  • It would be more accurate to say "In Matthew's Gospel, " before "Jesus replies" in paragraph 2. The other synoptics do not have him acknowledging the title, and both cited sources mention only Matthew in their analysis.
Trials by the Sanhedrin, Herod and Pilate
  • "make fun of" is a little trite. "Mock", perhaps?
  • Regarding the "purple robe (which signifies royal status)"... that's an interpretation, not found in the gospel accounts, and is not sourced. Besides, Matthew calls it "scarlet". I think it's best to omit. It would be fine to simply say they ridicule him by placing a crown of thorns on his head.
Crucifixion and burial
  • "a Roman centurion affirms that Jesus was the Son of God"... the word "affirm" assumes that the statement is true, which is a POV. The centurion's statement is more of a surmise, in context. One source the article cites, Köstenberger, Kellum & Quarles, clearly advocates that POV. (The pages in the cite include inspirational language like "Will you and I worship, or will we doubt?") It's fine to use as a source, but I don't think "affirms" is a NPOV term here.
Existence
  • Van Voorst should be fully named and linked at the first mention, not the second.
Historicity of events
  • Biblical maximalists do not accept the truth of the gospels "in their entirety"; they accept the gospels as reliable evidence wherever a statement is not clearly contradicted by better evidence. (Keener, one of your sources for this statement, says "A maximalist approach to the sources grants as evidence whatever is possible"; Chilton and Evans do not define the term.)
  • "Although no totally maximalist view is accepted as historical..." Since "totally maximalist view" is not well defined, it would be better to say "Although a belief in the inerrancy of the gospels cannot be supported historically..." (or some other wording)
  • I think there are better sources than Wright for Mark's reliability and date. I would recommend Mark 1-8 by Joel Marcus (2000, ABD) pp. 37-39 for the date, and Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament (1997) pp. 114-166 for Mark's primacy and relative reliability. You may know of even more reliable summaries of scholarship on the issue. (Bauckham, perhaps?)
Religious perspectives
  • It is very difficult to choose which perspectives merit treatment here, and which can be left out. I think the current article could be improved in its balance, however. I accept the decision to treat "Christian views", diverse as they may be, in one section that stresses common features. Non-trinitarian perspectives, such as those of Jahovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, and many Quakers, are given a single sentence about nontrinitarianism. I accept that. But then why does Ahmadiyya Islam, a minor and recent sect of Islam, merit its own section? I think that section should be omitted entirely, or treated in a sentence or two within the Islam section.
  • Similary, Buddhism does not have any generally-accepted view of Jesus; that section consists of the personal opinions of two Buddhists, followed by an unrelated digression into a discarded theory about Jesus in India. Neither has to do with mainstream Buddhist views of Jesus, because there really aren't any. I believe that section should be omitted as well. If you like, it could be adequately encompassed as a single sentence in paragraph 2 under "other views".
  • I'm undecided about the Bahai section. It would probably be better to roll it into "Other views", but I won't object if it stands on its own the way it is now. (At least mainstream Bahai explicitly has a teaching about Jesus.)
Christian views
  • A source is needed for the statement that Christian veiws about Jesus are derived from the NT, and that these include his divinity etc. (The source listed only covers the differences between Eastern and Western christologies.)
  • Legitimate question: is it correct to say "Christians worship not only Jesus himself, but also his name"? Or would a different word, such as "honor" or "revere" be more appropriate? I'm not very familiar with this aspect of Christian doctrine, but it sounds odd to me.
Islamic views
  • "Islam considers that Jesus was..." would be smoother as "Islam considers Jesus to be...". (Note the present tense: Jesus rose to heaven and will return, according to Islam, and so currently exists.)
  • "physically raised" should not link to "Jesus in Islam". That's already the main article.
Buddhist views
  • I think this section should be removed. It is by far the weakest section in the article.
  • But if it is kept, "Buddhism is a nontheistic religion that denies the existence of a Creator God" is a flatly untrue statement. Most Theravada Buddhists philosophically consider questions about the exitstence of gods to be useless distractions (thus nontheist, not atheist), while most Mahayana Buddhists believe in many gods, some of whom are creator gods in one tradition or another (e.g. Brahmā (Buddhism)). The source given, a manual by De Noie on how to proselytize to Buddhists, claims "In folk Buddhism, adherents do worship Buddhist deities. But none of these is seen as the Supreme Being, the Creator God, as presented in biblical revelation." All this means is that Buddhists don't believe in the god De Noie believes in.
Other views
  • Minor: The Ehrman p.124-125 reference is used three times in a row, which really isn't necessary.
  • It seems odd to have Dawkins, personally, express his views alongside the teachings of several entire religions. Would it be more appropriate to reword it to cover atheists in general? "Atheists reject Jesus' divinity, but many hold a positive estimation of him; Richard Dawkins, for instance, refers to Jesus as 'a great moral teacher'."
Depictions
  • Since the article says "in the East" twice in two sentences, it would be a marginal improvement to turn the second into "in Eastern Christian art".
Relics associated with Jesus
  • It is probably worth a mention that modern scholarship is nearly universal in strongly doubting the authenticity of all relics.
External links
  • Some of the links are important and useful, but I don't think the link to Encyclopædia Britannica is needed, and "The Jewish Roman World of Jesus" looks like a page regarding just one scholar. I would omit it as well.
others
  • The persondata includes a date place of birth, though the FAQ discourages this.
  • Good point, place of birth removed.
  • The categories include many dubious designations (e.g. People from Bethlehem, Creator gods)
  • In preparing this review, I have checked a dozen or so sources, and in every case the statement in the article is fully supported by the source. I can do a more full spotcheck if requested.
Language, ethnicity and appearance
  • This section is under the supersection "Historical views", so I don't think it's appropriate to give lengthy examples where Jesus is called Jewish in parts of the gospels that do not rank highly among scholars for their reliability. I think that paragraph should be largely rewritten. It goes off on a tangent to show what is obvious and no longer contested: that Jesus is portrayed as Jewish. I think the paragraph should be rewritten to say that it is the view of modern scholars that Jesus was Jewish (Meier, passim, or any other RS), and then have that interesting statement by Levine... and that's really all that's necessary. (It could possibly be merged into paragraph 3 at that point.)

All in all, this article is excellent and has exceeded my expectations. I hope my concerns are appropriately addressed, as it would be personally very satisfying to see such an important article featured. – Quadell 19:55, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment on this: All seem good points I'd endorse, except I still hope to rejig "Depictions" a bit anyway. Johnbod (talk) 21:15, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Query - I went to review this article today and noticed all the disruption and edit warring. FutureTrillionaire, would you say the stability of the article is affected right now, or is this just par for the course? I know bringing articles like this to FA standard is very difficult for this very reason, and I admire you for trying. --Laser brain (talk) 15:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong support. This article is among the best Misplaced Pages has to offer, and fully deserves featured status. I am doubly impressed: first for the high quality of the article, and second by the diligence of those involved. – Quadell 18:50, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I heartily second Quadell's comments. The article is in fantastic shape and I feel proud to have played a small part in getting it to where it is. As I said already above, very well done to FutureTrillionaire and everybody else who has contributed—not least you, Quadell! —Cliftonian (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment from Rbreen

Great progress has been made on this article, which considering its size, complexity and controversial nature is a huge achievement. As a battle-scarred text it has over the years been difficult to read (it still shows signs of unncessary length due to petty squabbles, but that's probably always going to be true with this subject. It's an impressive result.

There is, however, one weakness in the current form, and it's an important one. One editor above mentioned this, but it still needs to be taken seriously. Given that the main sources for information about Jesus are the canonical Gospels, the reader needs to have an understanding about how modern scholarship sees the relationship between them: beginning with Mark, which is developed further (and separately, and to some extent differently) by Matthew and Luke with the use of Q, and finally - probably from a distinct separate tradition - John. This doesn't have to be done in great detail - it's written about extensively in other articles - but it needs to be explained clearly in the "Canonical Gospel Accounts" section. What we have now is a fairly naive approach that treats all the Gospel accounts as a Gospel harmony, which misses out on much of what modern Biblical scholarship has established over the past century. It's astonishing to find no mention at all of Q, for instance, even thought it's broadly speaking part of the modern consensus. What follows in the article makes no sense at all unless the reader understands that the account they are reading is actually composed of four closely related but different ones. Right now, a reader who was not familiar with this would never suspect it. --Rbreen (talk) 22:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Strangesad

ççç===Jesus===

Jesus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Reviewers: Please read this article's FAQ before reading the article. If you disagree with anything in the FAQ, please voice your concern at the article's talk page, not here.

This article became a good article in early May, and also received a copy edit from the WP:GOCE later that month. After much work, I believe this article is ready for FAC.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments

Appearance

  • Language, ethnicity and appearance section: For appearance, you basically state that there is no proof of what Jesus looked like, which is totally fair. But there is general consensus out there of what a man living at that time in that place would probably look like. Can you include a sentence or two that covers what the experts believe is a best guess as to what Jesus probably looked like? That section left me wanting to know. upstateNYer 02:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Done. I added some brief info. Scholars agree that Jesus likely looked like a typical Jew, and had a tough appearance due to his work and travels.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 04:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
      • I'm looking more for what a typical Jew looked like. Everybody reading that will think of how they see the typical Jew. The typical Jew of 2000 years ago, though, didn't look like today's Jew I'm sure. upstateNYer 17:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
        • I'm just wondering whether this might be heading for too much speculation. The ideas that Jesus probably looked like the typical Jew and was probably sinewy are already just speculations based on his ethnicity and lifestyle. To define the "typical Jew of 2000 years ago" would be another round of speculation, wouldn't it? Isn't this going to end up as speculation-squared? That and the fraught issue of ethnic stereotyping. --Stfg (talk) 17:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
    • A scholarly attempt was made here, which is probably worth citing. --99of9 (talk) 19:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Agree. Don't let's use that Discovery Channel-style story from Popular Mechanics! Johnbod (talk) 12:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Hamiltonstone

SupportComment. Very interesting, looks promising. My support is qualified by this not being my field and it certainly is a subject that begets an enormous literature. I am trusting that the literature is fairly represented.

  • Last para on chronology: "Astronomers since Isaac Newton have tried to estimate..." There is no explanation of why on earth astronomy would be relevant, leaving this reader confused. How does astronomy enter the picture? How are they coming up with specific actual dates? This jars with the clarity of preceding material that sets out reasons for estimates of years etc. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The article is structured by separating the new testament account from all other accounts or historical views, and I am not quite sure about the justification for the separation of Josephus and Tacitus from what are essentially other sources of the same approximate date (the new testament documents). Can an editor clarify why this is? hamiltonstone (talk) 00:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
    • There is a big distinction among scholars between the "Christ of faith" (the Jesus described in the gospels) and the "Jesus of history". This article meant to be a general article that covers all views on Jesus, including the Jesus of the New Testament, the historic Jesus, and the Jesus of other religions (such as Islam).--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The article states 'Bart D. Ehrman states that it is unsound to argue that since Jesus had an immense impact on the society of his day, one might have expected contemporary accounts of his deeds; Ehrman adds that although Jesus had a large impact on future generations, his impact on the society of his time was "practically nil"'. I think this sentence needs reworking, but it depends on what exactly Ehrman is saying. My interpretation is that he is not "adding" something but explaining the error of the argument. If that is correct, a better formulation would be: 'Bart D. Ehrman argues that although Jesus had a large impact on future generations, his impact on the society of his time was "practically nil". It would therefore be unsound to expect contemporary accounts of his deeds.' hamiltonstone (talk) 11:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • These sentences puzzle me: 'Jonathan Waxman of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism writes that Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah have "crossed the line out of the Jewish community". Reform Judaism holds that anyone in the Jewish community "who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate" ' I felt they gave undue weight to one particular view in contemporary groups, and in any case seemed to express a view to which an alternative had never crossed my mind (that some Jews would see Jesus as messiah). Because of this, I was then further confused by the association of this view with "Conservative" Judaism. When I clicked on the link, i learned that the grtoup in question is North American only, which is not really consistent with the worldwide view of the article subject. All in all, this bit didn't work for me, and seems to provide unnecessary detail to elaborate that which is already stated in the first two sentences of the section. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:54, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • In a top level article of this gravity that is already long, why is there coverage of the UFO religions, particularly one that has fewer followers than the population of a single town, or Religious Science, which is similarly tiny? I would also question the inclusion of the Jefferson Bible stuff. In contrast, most of the other "other" inclusions make sense; gnosticism for its historically significant role in religion; Nietsche and Russell as major infuences on western modern thought, and Hinduism, because of the global significance of the religion. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Any particular reason the version of the bible being quoted is anachronistic (eg. "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee...")? hamiltonstone (talk) 11:28, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Image review by FunkMonk

  • All images have proper licenses, but there is one problem. This file obviously has wrong author information, and needs to be fixed somehow. At the least, the author field should say unknown, I'm sure it is PD old, so it can still be used either way. It seems the uploader thinks he owns copyright for taking the picture, but that is incorrect. Apart from this, no problems, and I moved one locally hosted image to Commons. Maybe the origin of the image can be determined through Google's new image recognition tool. FunkMonk (talk) 00:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Looking again, all the PD old images need the dual PD old/PD US license tag, as that has become common practice now. FunkMonk (talk) 01:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Really? I thought just the PD-old-100 tag is sufficient, because it says "This work is in the public domain in the United States..." --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, you are right, for some reason I was synonymising PD-old with PD-70 in my head, but none such are even present, so PD-100 should be enough. FunkMonk (talk) 01:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
It's sufficient for Misplaced Pages and Commons. But some countries don't have the equivalent of Bridgeman, so when a user has explicitly released their photographic work as PD-self, that should still be noted on the file page to allow external non-US reusers who cannot rely on PD-Art. I've amended it. --99of9 (talk) 11:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Review from Cliftonian

Support from Cliftonian. After a number of read-throughs and comments and a few amendments on my own part, I now feel comfortable with giving this my backing. I've capped my comments below. Well done FutureTrillionaire! —Cliftonian (talk) 08:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Cliftonian
This is already a fine achievement on what many would see as one of the most important articles of all. Here are some comments which I hope will help on the way to FA status.
  • I've made a few tweaks during my look through, please feel free to revert if you don't like these.
  • In a lot of places you have multiple references together where they might be better consolidated into one reference ("The years of Jesus' ministry have been estimated using several different approaches." for example)
  • 4 citations for one statement is overkill in my opinion. I've removed two of the refs in the example you mentioned, and I believe that was the only incident of 4 refs used together. There are still places where 3 citations are used for one statement, but I think 3 is acceptable. However, if you want, I can trim those as well.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Some references are out of numerical order; not terrifically important in a practical sense but I would have a quick run-through towards the end of this process just to bring them in line
  • Yes, that is generally the reason why it happens. But it can be easily rectified by putting previously used refnames first where you have reference clusters. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
  • One thing I noticed on my first read-through is that the word "states" (as in "Evans states that") is used very often, creating jarring repetition in places. If I were you I would try to reword in places where this construction appears more than once within a few sentences or within a single paragraph. This problem is particularly evident in footnotes a, b and c, which, while informative, are somewhat clunky prose-wise, using "X states" repeatedly. I appreciate the intent might have been to lend equal weight to each statement by avoiding equivocal wording, but perhaps alternatives can be found; "X says", for example, or "X writes" or "according to X".
  • I've moved a lot of wikilinks around and added some; the first time a topic of interest is introduced, such as God the Father or the Crucifixion, it should be linked there, and preferably not again.
  • In "Relics associated with Jesus", the Shroud of Turin image is a bit big for my liking. On my screen I have a lot of whitespace. Do you think we can rearrange this somehow?
  • One last thing—I noticed that most of the images lacked alt text, so I went through and added it.

I hope this helps. I will come back to this review later as well. Well done so far and keep up the good work! —Cliftonian (talk) 07:59, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Just a suggestion: I know there are already a lot of pictures here and Peter's denial is an important part of the gospel, but I think in the "Trials by the Sanhedrin, Herod and Pilate" section, an "ecce homo" image (that is, one of Pilate presenting Jesus to the mob) might be better than the present image of Peter denying Jesus, both as an illustration (the present denial image, when thumbnailed, is far from clear) and as a complement to the narrative. I was thinking particularly that Antonio Ciseri's depiction, linked here, might be suitable. What do you think? Have a great Sunday and a good week ahead now. —Cliftonian (talk) 04:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The infobox gives the year of death as "30–33 AD" while the first sentence of the lead gives "30–36 AD". I presume the former is what we are going with, judging from the footnote, but I just thought I'd bring it up here to be sure. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The first sentence of "religious perspectives" says that "Apart from his own disciples and followers, the Jews of Jesus' day generally rejected him as the Messiah, as do Jews today." But then lower down, in "Jewish views", we briefly mention Messianic Jews. As the article says, whether these are part of Judaism or not is open for debate, but they certainly claim themselves to be Jews, and most of them are indisputably of Jewish ethnic stock. What with the equivocal nature of the word "Jew", we also have to consider Christians of Jewish descent, and Jews who convert to Christianity. I could go on but I think the point is made.
  • I think we should look at alternative wording on the last clause of the sentence. Perhaps "as do most Jews", "as do the vast majority of Jews", "as do mainstream Jews", "as do adherents of mainstream Judaism" or something along these lines? Just a suggestion as always.
  • I'd just like to say also that I feel a lot of progress is being made on this article, well done. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree. The article is getting better. Thanks for your comments and copyedits. As for the "religious perspectives" sentence, I think the best solution is to change the wording to "as do the vast majority of Jews today". The numbers for Messianic Jews are very small, and I am guessing ethnic Jews who have converted to Christianity are in a similar situation.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure about the caption for the Transfiguration image. The caption is presently "Transfiguration of Jesus depicting him with Elijah, Moses and three apostles, by Carracci, 1594", which seems to imply grammatically that it is the transfiguration that is by Carracci rather than the depiction. Perhaps something along the lines of "Carracci's 1594 depiction of the transfiguration of Jesus; he converses with Elijah and Moses while three apostles look on, amazed"?
  • Peter's denial is mentioned twice; first at the end of the "Agony in the Garden, betrayal and arrest" section, and then again at the end of the first paragraph of the following section. It isn't necessary to recount the denial twice in such a short passage of text. I have altered this myself as I think explaining it here would be overly complicated, I hope you don't think this presumptuous; feel free to revert if you disagree
  • I think it's still worth mentioning that all four Gospels mention Peter's denial, and I felt that little sentence bookended the paragraph quite nicely, but I don't feel too strongly on it. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:21, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Points by Johnbod

On a first look, the article seems pretty good for a subject with an enormous amount of literature, with very divergent views on many aspects. In an article like this nuances of wording and emphasis are very important to get right.

  • Lead. " Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee" - to most readers, especially the young, "teacher" means schoolteacher. Not sure what a better phrasing would be.
  • "Most Christians believe that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, performed miracles, founded the Church, died by crucifixion as a sacrifice to achieve atonement, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven, from which he will return. The majority of Christians worship Jesus as the incarnation of God the Son, the second of three Persons of a Divine Trinity. A few Christian groups reject Trinitarianism, wholly or partly, as non-scriptural" - "most" and "the majority" seem likely to be misleading by too much qualification as these key doctrines are common to almost all Christians, or at least the churches they affiliate with - well over 99% one would think.
  • Last para of lead - do we really need this in the lead? Especially "Bahá'í scripture almost never refers to Jesus as the Messiah, but calls him a Manifestation of God", whatever that means?
  • "Thus, in the Christian Bible, Jesus is referred to as "Jesus of Nazareth" - "Christian Bible" introduces unnecessary complication. New Testament or Gospels will do.
  • "namely the last week of the life of Jesus in Jerusalem, referred to as Passion Week" - it is the annual commemoration that is usually "referred to as Passion Week". Just "namely the last week of the life of Jesus in Jerusalem, referred to as his Passion" or something.
  • "tekton". The article twice deals with the original profession of Jesus, and Joseph, once in "Early life and profession" and in "Profession and literacy" in the historical section. Both draw from the text at Historical Jesus, I think mostly written by me. There is a degree of repetition - I'm not sure if this is justified or not. The second version has phrasing issues: "In the New Testament, Jesus and his father were identified as τέκτων (tekton) (Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3), traditionally translated from Koine Greek into English as "carpenter". However, some scholars argue that tekton is a generic word (from the same root that gives "technical" and "technology") that could cover makers of objects in various materials, even builders. Others have argued that tekton could equally mean a highly-skilled craftsman in wood or the more prestigious metal, perhaps running a workshop with several employees." This makes it sound as if there is or has been some sort of controversy over these issues, which isn't entirely the case (apart perhaps from Crossan's unhelpful autobiographical comments). Does anybody disagree that "tekton is a generic word ... that could cover makers of objects in various materials, even builders"? What this account misses is the strong early tradition that working with wood was what Jesus did, as from Justin Martyr, mentioned in the first section. Essentially the sources are not clear, & there's not enough material for a decent scholarly row about it.
  • "Ministry section" "Public ministry" is a perhaps a better phrase, that might be used once or tice among the many occurrences throughout the article. No mention of the apostles, or their recruitment. Some sort of summary of what modern scholarship makes of the growing body of "disciples" is reallly needed. What did the term mean - roughly how many, & doing what? Tricky I know.
  • Last Supper - without opening the matter too far, some sort of mention that commemoration & re-enactment of this event became central to much Christian worship is needed I think, with a link to Eucharist.
Ok on comments above. Johnbod (talk) 13:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

-more coming Johnbod (talk) 12:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

  • "After the trials, Jesus makes his way to Calvary by a route known traditionally as the Via Dolorosa" - this is rather more than we actually know, isn't it? I believe that route has changed somewhat over the centuries. Also "makes his way" sounds rather casual and voluntary, and we have Christ Carrying the Cross. Maybe: " After the trials, Jesus is led to Calvary carrying his cross; the route traditionally thought to have been taken is known as the Via Dolorosa".
  • A link or note for "gall" would be useful - what do scholars think this was?
  • The summary of the Gospel accounts while Jesus is on the cross seems too brief, though I realize the accounts vary in fiddly ways. As it is there is no explanation of the "events" (not the best word perhaps) the centurion is impressed by, so that bit reads oddly.
  • "The Acts of the Apostles describe several appearances by Jesus after his Ascension" - these are presented as visions etc rather than flesh & blood on the ground "appearances", & this should be made clear.
  • I've changed "end times" to "last days" as more neutral; something longer might be better "last days of the world" or something. "End times" is only used by Evangelicals in my experience.
  • "but since then skeptics have emerged who question the reliability of the gospels" - "skeptics" is much too loaded. Links needed here: Biblical criticism, maybe others.
  • "The third quest, which began around the 1980s, was unique for its greater emphasis on the methods of mainstream historical scholarship" - a very dubious assertion as phrased, imo, even if it can be sourced to those involved. More neutral phrasing needed. What the first two phases were is not explained.
  • I wonder if the paragraph starting "Donald Akenson has argued that,..." is helpful. This is an immensely complex area on which seas of ink have been expended for centuries, & I'm not sure this works as a useful summary of anything much. Akenson is a specialist in a totally different area of history (probably without much relevant linguistic background etc) who has written wrote two books on the subject, and far more on other subjects.
  • In the current size and balance of the "Historical views" section, I think more is needed on the older areas of Biblical criticism that underly current debates, which receive most of the coverage. A very brief summary with links to things like Q source would be good.
  • "Most Christians believe that Jesus was both human and the Son of God. While there has been theological debate over his nature, Trinitarian Christians generally believe that Jesus is the Logos, God's incarnation and God the Son, both fully divine and fully human." A little expansion & links re the debates in the Early Church needed on this.
  • The section on Islam implies, but should state clearly, that Islam regards the whole New Testament as inauthentic, except where the Qu'ran agrees with it.
  • "Depictions" section really needs 2-3 sentences on the development of the "standard" image, & major variants. Also the influence of "miraculous" images in forming the general depiction. I will try to add these.
  • Maybe some more general points later - are all the works in "Bibliography" cited in the article? I'd really like to see one or more reviews of this by a specialist, clergy or otherwise. Johnbod (talk) 14:54, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
  • All the above covered, although the points in the footnotes j & k would be better in the text, but I won't fuss about that. Johnbod (talk) 02:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Looking at the footnotes: f just repeats a; a,b,f,g,h all cover dating, with some more repetition. I suspect some streamlining would improve them. Note h is almost all a quote, which should be shown as such, with the verse (3:1). I'm not sure what the citation there covers - probably should go up to the main text. I still want to rejik the depictions a bit. Johnbod (talk) 02:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Review by Quadell

Resolved items

As an amateur but serious New Testament scholar who has read many of the article's more important sources, I can attest that the material and tone fairly represents the scholarly consensus, while giving fair weight to the majority Christian interpretation of history. I'm very pleased with this, and it must have taken a lot of work. Well done. The prose is excellent overall. It is difficult to find unclear or clunky writing in this article. Thanks to FunkMonk for the image review.

Lede
  • Per WP:LEDE, the lede should summarize all parts of the article and should not include important information not covered outside the lede. As such, many ledes do not require any citations, since the same facts are cited where they are more fully expressed in the article body. This lede has a lot of citations, far more than other controversial FAs. (Compare Evolution, L. Ron Hubbard, Psilocybe semilanceata, Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, etc.) Most worryingly, most of the cites used in the lede are not used outside the lede. Should these citations instead be placed in the body wherever the statements they support are most fully expressed?
Etymology of names
  • A mention is made of Jesus being called "Joseph's son" in Luke 4, but not of his being called "Mary's son" in Mark 6. Most scholars deem Mark 6 to have been written earlier, and it is a more unusual way of referring to a Jew in that time period... wouldn't it be more worth a mention?
  • "Yahweh saves", "Yahweh will save", and "Yahweh is salvation" are all extremely close in meaning. Do we need all three? Also, I believe the etymology to be fairly uncontroversial. Are three cites needed?
Chronology
  • Everything in the first paragraph represents scholarly consensus. Why is Levine named and singled out? You could find dozens of scholars as respected (Meier, Brown, and on and on) who would fully support the sentence.
  • "According to many scholars, the Crucifixion occurred before the conversion of Paul..." Do any scholars doubt this? All early sources, including Paul's own description of his conversion, are unanimous in this.
  • Related: the sentence implies that we know the crucifixion occurred in 33 or earlier because it came before Paul's ministry, which started in 33-36. But both sources estimate the start of Paul's ministry based in part on the understanding that it couldn't have started before the crucifixion in 33 or so. The causation is backwards.
Life and teachings in the New Testament
  • Nowhere in the article are extrabiblical Christian accounts of Jesus mentioned. (Gospel of Thomas, infancy narratives, Gospel of Mary, etc.) They don't deserve detailed treatment in this article, but I do think it would appropriate to mention their existence, and the end of the introductory section of this supersection is probably the best place (after "...than the canonical gospels do.") Might I suggest the following? "Some early Christian groups had separate descriptions of the life and teachings of Jesus that are not included in the New Testament. These include the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Peter, and the Apocryphon of James, among many other apocryphal writings. Most scholars consider these much later and less reliable accounts than the canonical gospels." One possible source would be Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament (1997), pp. 835-840.
  • This supersection gives almost no space to Jesus' miracles. It only mentions his healing the sick in a single sentence as a way of describing his teachings, and the same is true for his driving out of demons. These miracles make up a large section of the gospel accounts of Jesus' life and ministry, and are the subject of voluminous critical commentary (much of Meier's A Marginal Jew volume 2, for example). It seems a lack of balance to not have a section on Jesus' miracles, as we do for his teachings, transfiguration, arrest, childhood, and other less-prominent facets of Jesus' life.
  • I've added some more info on miracles to the "Canonical gospel accounts" section and the "Teachings, preachings, and miracles" section.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
    I'm torn here. First off, the material you added is excellent. But I still feel like Jesus' miracles deserve their own section. (I'm sure I don't have to convince you of their importance.) On the other hand, the text incorporates it well with Jesus' teachings in the last sentences, and the section is excellent. So I still think it would be better to have miracles in it's own section, but I think it deserves to be featured either way, so it's not an objection. – Quadell 22:36, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Canonical gospel accounts
  • This sentence is very important, and it's important to get it right: "Elements whose historical authenticity are disputed include the two accounts of the Nativity, as well as the Resurrection and certain details about the Crucifixion." The sentence could be improved. It's not wrong... but the strong majority of scholars believe the infancy narratives contain no historical information, while most believe the crucifixion depicts in broad strokes a historical event. ("Certain details about" are almost weasel words, in that they could be used to show scholarly doubt about anything in the gospels.) I would instead mention the elements that the largest majorities of scholars feel are historically unreliable, which could include birth and infancy stories, the ascension, narratives of speeches in John, (much of John, actually), the last supper, and the Sanhedron trial. (I don't mean to insist that these specific details be used, but only to show that the sentence can and should be improved.)
  • I changed it to: "Elements whose historical authenticity are disputed include the Nativity, the Resurrection, the Ascension, some of Jesus' miracles, and the Sanhedrin trial, among others." Is this good enough?--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:13, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
    • It is better. Still, I have two suggested improvements: (1) Consider linking these terms if it is the first time they are mentioned outside the lede, since the reader might not be familiar with them. (2) Consider wording it as "Most scholars give less historical weight to descriptions of...", which I think is a slightly more accurate and smoother wording. (Afterall, no one disputes that they are "authentic" in the sense of being authentic 1st-century Christian narratives.) – Quadell 12:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "John 14:10 stresses the importance of the words of Jesus and attributes them to the authority of God the Father." While true, this seems out of place. Other sentences around it concern the overarching similarities between gospel accounts, not individual statements in just one. I think the idea is covered in "Teachings and preachings", and so can be omitted here.
Baptism and temptation
  • I'm not sure Redford's interpretation here is particularly notable. Perhaps it would be more pertinent to mention this desert temptation was situated by the synoptics as an important prelude to the beginning of Jesus' teachings. There would be many citations one could find for that.
  • I think it would flow better logically if "The gospel of John does not mention the baptism or the temptation." were placed at the end of this section. It might be useful to include a statement that John depicts Jesus' conversations with JtB (though not his baptism) and his calling of the disciples as the relevant preludes to Jesus public ministry -- if a good cite for that can be found. Raymond Brown's ABD volume on John makes that observation, I'm sure. Or you could not, your call.
  • I moved the Gospel of John sentence to the end of the paragraph, and added the Baptist's testimony (John 1:32). Jesus' first disciples according to the fourth gospel is already described in the Public ministry section.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 02:30, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Public ministry
  • The sentence beginning "However, John's Gospel..." is also covered in the "Final entry into Jerusalem". It fits better there, and really doesn't add anything here.
Teachings and preachings
  • Paragraph 2 is problematic. Let's start with "The New Testament presents the teachings of Jesus not merely as his own preaching, but as divine revelation." The New Testament as a whole rarely mentions the teachings of Jesus outside of the gospels, so this should be "The gospels present...", but the gospels do not present the teachings of Jesus in a consistent way. This really should be "John's Gospel presents...". That would be accurate. Three of the four quotes in this paragraph are from John, after all, and the fourth is presented in a somewhat misleading way. (It leaves off the second half of the sentence where Jesus describes this "divine knowledge" as shared with others. Besides, it concerns his knowledge more than his "teachings and "preachings", and is only obliquely related to the section.) The wording of this paragraph also leads the reader to believe that the gospels do not show Jesus as having a less-than-divine knowlege, as is stated in Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32. So I would make the paragraph limited to John's depiction of Jesus' authority, and perhaps it could mention the synoptics' characterization of Jesus' teaching as consistently inspiring awe in those who heard them, if you want to include the other gospels.
Proclamation as Christ and Transfiguration
  • It would be more accurate to say "In Matthew's Gospel, " before "Jesus replies" in paragraph 2. The other synoptics do not have him acknowledging the title, and both cited sources mention only Matthew in their analysis.
Trials by the Sanhedrin, Herod and Pilate
  • "make fun of" is a little trite. "Mock", perhaps?
  • Regarding the "purple robe (which signifies royal status)"... that's an interpretation, not found in the gospel accounts, and is not sourced. Besides, Matthew calls it "scarlet". I think it's best to omit. It would be fine to simply say they ridicule him by placing a crown of thorns on his head.
Crucifixion and burial
  • "a Roman centurion affirms that Jesus was the Son of God"... the word "affirm" assumes that the statement is true, which is a POV. The centurion's statement is more of a surmise, in context. One source the article cites, Köstenberger, Kellum & Quarles, clearly advocates that POV. (The pages in the cite include inspirational language like "Will you and I worship, or will we doubt?") It's fine to use as a source, but I don't think "affirms" is a NPOV term here.
Existence
  • Van Voorst should be fully named and linked at the first mention, not the second.
Historicity of events
  • Biblical maximalists do not accept the truth of the gospels "in their entirety"; they accept the gospels as reliable evidence wherever a statement is not clearly contradicted by better evidence. (Keener, one of your sources for this statement, says "A maximalist approach to the sources grants as evidence whatever is possible"; Chilton and Evans do not define the term.)
  • "Although no totally maximalist view is accepted as historical..." Since "totally maximalist view" is not well defined, it would be better to say "Although a belief in the inerrancy of the gospels cannot be supported historically..." (or some other wording)
  • I think there are better sources than Wright for Mark's reliability and date. I would recommend Mark 1-8 by Joel Marcus (2000, ABD) pp. 37-39 for the date, and Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament (1997) pp. 114-166 for Mark's primacy and relative reliability. You may know of even more reliable summaries of scholarship on the issue. (Bauckham, perhaps?)
Religious perspectives
  • It is very difficult to choose which perspectives merit treatment here, and which can be left out. I think the current article could be improved in its balance, however. I accept the decision to treat "Christian views", diverse as they may be, in one section that stresses common features. Non-trinitarian perspectives, such as those of Jahovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, and many Quakers, are given a single sentence about nontrinitarianism. I accept that. But then why does Ahmadiyya Islam, a minor and recent sect of Islam, merit its own section? I think that section should be omitted entirely, or treated in a sentence or two within the Islam section.
  • Similary, Buddhism does not have any generally-accepted view of Jesus; that section consists of the personal opinions of two Buddhists, followed by an unrelated digression into a discarded theory about Jesus in India. Neither has to do with mainstream Buddhist views of Jesus, because there really aren't any. I believe that section should be omitted as well. If you like, it could be adequately encompassed as a single sentence in paragraph 2 under "other views".
  • I'm undecided about the Bahai section. It would probably be better to roll it into "Other views", but I won't object if it stands on its own the way it is now. (At least mainstream Bahai explicitly has a teaching about Jesus.)
Christian views
  • A source is needed for the statement that Christian veiws about Jesus are derived from the NT, and that these include his divinity etc. (The source listed only covers the differences between Eastern and Western christologies.)
  • Legitimate question: is it correct to say "Christians worship not only Jesus himself, but also his name"? Or would a different word, such as "honor" or "revere" be more appropriate? I'm not very familiar with this aspect of Christian doctrine, but it sounds odd to me.
Islamic views
  • "Islam considers that Jesus was..." would be smoother as "Islam considers Jesus to be...". (Note the present tense: Jesus rose to heaven and will return, according to Islam, and so currently exists.)
  • "physically raised" should not link to "Jesus in Islam". That's already the main article.
Buddhist views
  • I think this section should be removed. It is by far the weakest section in the article.
  • But if it is kept, "Buddhism is a nontheistic religion that denies the existence of a Creator God" is a flatly untrue statement. Most Theravada Buddhists philosophically consider questions about the exitstence of gods to be useless distractions (thus nontheist, not atheist), while most Mahayana Buddhists believe in many gods, some of whom are creator gods in one tradition or another (e.g. Brahmā (Buddhism)). The source given, a manual by De Noie on how to proselytize to Buddhists, claims "In folk Buddhism, adherents do worship Buddhist deities. But none of these is seen as the Supreme Being, the Creator God, as presented in biblical revelation." All this means is that Buddhists don't believe in the god De Noie believes in.
Other views
  • Minor: The Ehrman p.124-125 reference is used three times in a row, which really isn't necessary.
  • It seems odd to have Dawkins, personally, express his views alongside the teachings of several entire religions. Would it be more appropriate to reword it to cover atheists in general? "Atheists reject Jesus' divinity, but many hold a positive estimation of him; Richard Dawkins, for instance, refers to Jesus as 'a great moral teacher'."
Depictions
  • Since the article says "in the East" twice in two sentences, it would be a marginal improvement to turn the second into "in Eastern Christian art".
Relics associated with Jesus
  • It is probably worth a mention that modern scholarship is nearly universal in strongly doubting the authenticity of all relics.
External links
  • Some of the links are important and useful, but I don't think the link to Encyclopædia Britannica is needed, and "The Jewish Roman World of Jesus" looks like a page regarding just one scholar. I would omit it as well.
others
  • The persondata includes a date place of birth, though the FAQ discourages this.
  • Good point, place of birth removed.
  • The categories include many dubious designations (e.g. People from Bethlehem, Creator gods)
  • In preparing this review, I have checked a dozen or so sources, and in every case the statement in the article is fully supported by the source. I can do a more full spotcheck if requested.
Language, ethnicity and appearance
  • This section is under the supersection "Historical views", so I don't think it's appropriate to give lengthy examples where Jesus is called Jewish in parts of the gospels that do not rank highly among scholars for their reliability. I think that paragraph should be largely rewritten. It goes off on a tangent to show what is obvious and no longer contested: that Jesus is portrayed as Jewish. I think the paragraph should be rewritten to say that it is the view of modern scholars that Jesus was Jewish (Meier, passim, or any other RS), and then have that interesting statement by Levine... and that's really all that's necessary. (It could possibly be merged into paragraph 3 at that point.)

All in all, this article is excellent and has exceeded my expectations. I hope my concerns are appropriately addressed, as it would be personally very satisfying to see such an important article featured. – Quadell 19:55, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment on this: All seem good points I'd endorse, except I still hope to rejig "Depictions" a bit anyway. Johnbod (talk) 21:15, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Query - I went to review this article today and noticed all the disruption and edit warring. FutureTrillionaire, would you say the stability of the article is affected right now, or is this just par for the course? I know bringing articles like this to FA standard is very difficult for this very reason, and I admire you for trying. --Laser brain (talk) 15:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong support. This article is among the best Misplaced Pages has to offer, and fully deserves featured status. I am doubly impressed: first for the high quality of the article, and second by the diligence of those involved. – Quadell 18:50, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I heartily second Quadell's comments. The article is in fantastic shape and I feel proud to have played a small part in getting it to where it is. As I said already above, very well done to FutureTrillionaire and everybody else who has contributed—not least you, Quadell! —Cliftonian (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment from Rbreen

Great progress has been made on this article, which considering its size, complexity and controversial nature is a huge achievement. As a battle-scarred text it has over the years been difficult to read (it still shows signs of unncessary length due to petty squabbles, but that's probably always going to be true with this subject. It's an impressive result.

There is, however, one weakness in the current form, and it's an important one. One editor above mentioned this, but it still needs to be taken seriously. Given that the main sources for information about Jesus are the canonical Gospels, the reader needs to have an understanding about how modern scholarship sees the relationship between them: beginning with Mark, which is developed further (and separately, and to some extent differently) by Matthew and Luke with the use of Q, and finally - probably from a distinct separate tradition - John. This doesn't have to be done in great detail - it's written about extensively in other articles - but it needs to be explained clearly in the "Canonical Gospel Accounts" section. What we have now is a fairly naive approach that treats all the Gospel accounts as a Gospel harmony, which misses out on much of what modern Biblical scholarship has established over the past century. It's astonishing to find no mention at all of Q, for instance, even thought it's broadly speaking part of the modern consensus. What follows in the article makes no sense at all unless the reader understands that the account they are reading is actually composed of four closely related but different ones. Right now, a reader who was not familiar with this would never suspect it. --Rbreen (talk) 22:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Strangesad

Strong oppose.

  • The article's treatment of the historical Jesus is biased in favor the existence of Jesus.
  • The "mythicist" arguments (skeptical of the existence of Jesus) tend to be weakly presented, and the article then puts more emphasis on rebutting them than explaining them.
  • Sources are frequently misquoted, quoted out of context, and chosen selectively to advance a certain view.
  • The majority of sources in the section are medium-quality or worse. Many of the authors are priests, pastors, or otherwise have an evangelical background. There is a surprising dearth of objective sources. There are no peer-reviewed sources. All cites are popular books (guess which position on the existence of Jesus will sell more popular book around the world).

Strawman arguments The article reduces all doubt about a historical Jesus to “mythicism,” simplistically defined as "Christians made the whole thing up". In doing so, it misrepresents several scholars lumped under that label. G.A. Wells is called a mythicist, but has modified his position over time. His current view is that there may have been a wandering preacher who can be said to be the basis of the stories of Jesus Christ. However, “this personage is not be identified with the dying and rising Christ of the early epistles.” Other critics have expressed the opinion that there may have been a figure more responsible for starting Christainity than any others, but that he was an itinerant preacher/mystic. For example, Alvar Ellegård argues the personage commonly thought of as Jesus was the Teacher of Righteousness, who lived around 150 BCE. This range of “mythicism” is described in the lede of Christ myth theory, but omitted in Jesus. The omission makes the skepticism seem simplistic.

Unbalanced sourcing The sourcing is particularly egregious. A claim that's debated in the Talk page archives as far back as I can see is that “virtually all” scholars agree Jesus existed. Also, that all scholars regard events such as his baptism and his crucifixion as fact. Here are the sources used for those claims:

  1. Burridge, Richard A.; Gould, Graham (2004). Jesus Now and Then. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. Richard A. Burridge, whose Misplaced Pages article titles him “Reverend” is a professor of Biblical Interpretation (didn't know you could major in that), a former chaplain, an ordained a deacon, and a member of the Church of England's General Synod.
  2. Dunn, James D.G. (2003). Jesus Remembered. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. James Dunn (theologian), a minister of the Church of Scotland, professor of divinity and theology (not history). In this same book, he gives a glimpse into his objectivity: “Christians have continued to affirm the resurrection of Jesus, as I do.....he was a famous exorcist and healer and many experienced miraculous happenings in his company...through the Jesus tradition the would-be disciple still hears and encounters Jesus”
  3. Brown, Raymond E. (1994). The Death of the Messiah: from Gethsemane to the Grave: A Commentary on the Passion Narratives in the Four Gospels. Doubleday. Raymond E. Brown is a Roman Catholic priest. The book is an interpretation of the gospels, not historical research, as is plain from its title (the book is also 19 years old, and probably shouldn't be relied on for the state of current scholarship.)
  4. Stanton, Ghraham (2002). The Gospels and Jesus. Oxford University Press. This book examines the varied meanings of the term of “gospel.” It's not about the historical Jesus. No page number is given and the intended reference can't be easily found. Any reference is probably a passing one, since the book isn't about the historical Jesus. Graham Stanton was a professor of divinity.
  5. Grant, Michael (1977). Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels. This popular book is 36 years old, so a poor source for the current state of scholarship. The author's historical expertise is numismatics. I couldn't get a copy to check the reference, either online from my local library.
  6. Van Voorst, Robert E (2000). Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence. Eerdmans Publishing. . Robert E. Van Voorst is a professor at Western Theological Seminary. He received his M.Div. from Western Theological Seminary, and his Ph.D. in New Testament from Union Theological Seminary Van Voorst has also served for twelve years as pastor at Rochester Reformed Church
  7. Finally, there is Bart D. Ehrman. Ehrman's training is evangelical—divinity degrees, etc. However, he recently converted to agnosticism. In one of the books used in this article, he writes of the mythicist arguments: "none is written by ... scholars trained in New Testament or early Christian studies teaching at the major, or even the minor, accredited theological seminaries, divinity schools...of the thousands of scholars of early Christianity who do teach at such schools, none of them to my knowledge has any doubt Jesus existed. But a whole body of literature ...some of it highly intelligent and well-informed makes this case....a couple of bona fide scholars--not professors teaching religious in universities but scholars nonetheless, and at least one of them with a Ph.D in the field of New Testament--have taken this position. 1) He says some of the mythicist literature is “intelligent and well-informed”. Our article omits this. 2) He says some of the mythicists are “bona fide” scholars. Our article states the opposite. Of course, he also says that he doesn't know of any “scholars” who dispute the existence of Jesus. However, in that context, he defines the relevant scholar as requiring a background in New Testament studies and holding a professorship (i.e. in his image).

I hadn't heard of William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company publishing until now: “Eerdmans has long been known for publishing a wide range of Christian and religious books, from academic works in Christian theology, biblical studies, religious history, and reference to popular titles in spirituality....” Fifty-percent of the articles sources asserting the unquestionable nature of the existence of Jesus are from this publisher. Very neutral. Very academic. Not!

I was going to get into the allegedly neutral sources for claiming that the baptism and crucifixion are undisputed facts, and that everybody acknowledges Josephus as “genuine.” These claims suffer the same sourcing problems. But the point is made. The sourcing needs to be cleaned up. Please, find some peer-reviewed, non-Christian literature on this controversial subject. Please represent the mythicist views fairly, with equal depth and respect. Strangesad (talk) 04:52, 10 August 2013 (UTC)