Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Strangesad (talk | contribs) at 06:10, 18 August 2013 (→Historicity). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jesus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137Auto-archiving period: 21 days

view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: What should this article be named? A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname. Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates? A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format. Q3: Did Jesus exist? A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information. Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Misplaced Pages? The issue was discussed on the talk page: Based on this Misplaced Pages search the phrase is widely used in Misplaced Pages. The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms. The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus. Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard? Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus. Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed? The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that: Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens. Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him. The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus. Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves? The formal Misplaced Pages guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Misplaced Pages guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus". Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead? A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items. Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian? A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question: Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013). Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global. It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally. For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine, Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty." Finally, Misplaced Pages policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc. Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others? A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first: Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion. A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization. More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc. As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc. Q6: Why is the infobox so brief? A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below. Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish? Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box. Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox? The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that. Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus? A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions. Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences? A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians. Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus? A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion. Q10: Why does the article state "ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this? A10: Misplaced Pages requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion. References R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49 Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024. Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26. Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

Jesus is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

Article milestones Date Process Result January 17, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted June 2, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted August 3, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted November 2, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted May 3, 2005 Articles for deletion Kept October 6, 2005 Peer review Reviewed December 15, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted April 14, 2006 Peer review Reviewed November 27, 2006 Peer review Reviewed April 21, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted August 21, 2007 WikiProject A-class review Approved July 12, 2009 Good article reassessment Delisted May 5, 2013 Good article nominee Listed May 28, 2013 Guild of Copy Editors Copyedited August 15, 2013 Featured article candidate Promoted Current status: Featured article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Religion Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Christianity: Jesus / Theology / Saints / Catholicism / Eastern O. / Oriental O. / Jewish / Anglicanism / Latter Day Saints Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Associated task forces: /  This article is within the scope of the Jesus work group, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive. This article is supported by theology work group (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Saints (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Catholicism (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy. This article is supported by WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Jewish Christianity (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Anglicanism (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement (assessed as Top-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Islam Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Core This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is listed on the project's core biographies page. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Bahá'í Faith High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bahá'í Faith, a coordinated attempt to increase the quality and quantity of information about the Baháʼí Faith on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.Bahá'í FaithWikipedia:WikiProject Bahá'í FaithTemplate:WikiProject Bahá'í FaithBahá'í Faith High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Bible Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WP1.0

Template:Controversial (history) Template:Pbneutral

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Jesus. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Jesus at the Reference desk.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.

	Guild of Copy Editors
This article was copy edited by Stfg, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 28 May 2013.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "Topics that spark Misplaced Pages 'edit wars' revealed". BBC News. 18 July 2013. Retrieved 18 July 2013.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jesus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137Auto-archiving period: 21 days

Talk:Jesus/archivebox

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Should the possible birth year span be extended back more?

Some scholars think Jesus might have been born as early as 10, 12 or even 14 BC. Irenaeus seemed to have believed so and Robin Lane Fox believes this is so. Should we extend Jesus' possible birth year back a few years?

Thevideodrome (talk) 02:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Clearing up some citations

I've removed three sources from the "Etymology of names" section, including a Messianic Bible (arguably fringe and unreliable), what looks like a second unreliable source (Natan, self-published through a POD service called CreateSpace), and a book called The King James Conspiracy, which is... um... well, it's a novel.

I've replaced it with a cite to Ehrman's last book, Did Jesus Exist?, but I've hit a bit of a snag, as I only have the Nook book and am not sure about page numbers. On the Nook PC app with default text settings, it's page 29, which is cited elsewhere in this article, but I'm pretty sure the page number will not necessarily match up with the print edition. The paragraph I have in mind is a bullet point about 2/3 through the first chapter, under the heading rebutting The Jesus Mysteries. It begins with the text "The Gospel writers deliberately constructed the Greek name Jesus".

If someone could double-check and get a print page number, then make the necessary correction (or just reply here and let me know so I can), that would be great. Thanks! Evanh2008  09:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I did a Google Book search for the Ehrman book and could not find a single result for "Yehoshua". Therefore, I suspect that Ehrman's book does not support the statement in the article. We might need to find a different source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:17, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind, the Ehrman source does state that Yeshua is derived from the Hebrew word for Joshua. I've added a source that states that Joshua is a rendition of Yehoshua. I think the whole sentence is now supported by RS. As for the page number, I believe page 29 is correct, because the the part about Yeshua is on the same page as the quote "nearly anyone who lived in the first century", which is what the other citation is used for.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Historicity

The article currently says: "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed."

• Bart Ehrman says: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" (p. 285 of his book given above)
• Van Voorst says on the theory of non-existence: "Biblical scholars and classical historians regard it as effectively refuted." (p. 16 of his book)
• Grant says: "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." (p. 200 of his book)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've removed text that asserts historicity as a consensus, since the sources were cherry-picked, and only expressed the sources' opinions. I'll say more a little later, when I have more time. Strangesad (talk) 16:59, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

For example, a scholar who questions the existence of jesus: Michael Martin (philosopher) Strangesad (talk) 17:00, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Under footnote "d" we mention Robert M. Price, who believes that Jesus did not exist, but also writes that most scholars disagree with him. Regardless of what Martin believes, does he dispute that most scholars disagree with him? —Cliftonian (talk) 17:05, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

The article doesn't say "most." It says "virtually all". 51% is very different from 99%. Anyway, most of the sources have a theological background not a historical one, and they are giving their opinions. There is no clear definition of what they mean by "scholar", but they seem to mean religion professors rather than historiians. The citation says stuff like Micahale Grant is a classicist, without mentioning that his specialty was Roman coins, and never mentions that all the sources for these claims are popular books, author interviews promoting their popular books, and so on. This has been discussed at great length here and on Resurrection of Jesus. It always ends with the minority skeptics being chased off by those guarding these articles.

I'm not sure who closed/hid this section, or why, but it seemed oppressively aggressive. Strangesad (talk) 17:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Its closed for just the reason stated - this is an issue that has been debated ad nauseum. The concensus is what is stated on the page. Ckruschke (talk) 17:23, 6 August 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke

Consensus can change, and saying it has been debated "ad nauseum" suggests that there are many views on it. It also doesn't address the points. When you say "virtually all" it should not be easy to find reliable counter-examples. Elaine Pagels, GA Wells, Betrand Russell, Richard Dawkins, and Price are all scholars who have expressed doubt. Strangesad (talk) 17:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Be careful not to confuse "notable people who have expressed an opinion" with historians and academics whose opinions actually matter as far as "historicity". Dawkins for example is very notable, but I'm not sure what gives weight to his opinions on historical facts or not. Also be careful to separate "did a Person named Jesus exist, who was the focal point for these stories" from "Is the Bible an accurate historical record of the actions of Jesus", which are two very different questions. In particular Wells seems to argue that Jesus was attributed with the mantle of many other older myths and figures - which is very plausible, but also a separate issue from if he existed or not. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:36, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

"Jesus probably existed.” – Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, p.122 Smeat75 (talk) 17:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I think Dawkins has said Jesus existed, but he also said that Jesus would be an atheist. What Dawkins means by Jesus is not clearly "a Jewish preacher from Galilee, baptized by John the Baptist, and crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate" as represented in this article. Strangesad (talk) 18:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the "virtualy all" statements, this book review reveals that Ehrman's definition of "scholar" is surprisingly narrow. Not what the average reader is going to expect:

"By serious scholar, Ehrman means one holding a PhD ... and currently tenured in the field of New Testament studies" .

I propose we change the wording of the article to "According to Ehrman, virtually everyone tenured in the field of the New Testament studies...." to more accurately reflect the source. Also, Van Voorst's Misplaced Pages page descibes him as a pastor. A pastor is not in a position to be objective about the historical reality of Jesus. Strangesad (talk) 16:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

In addition, a popup note in the lede mentions Ehrman's background as "secular agnostic". The term "secular" is redundnat, and should be removed as a matter of style. More importantly, if we are going to give his background, it is fair & balanced to mention that his early degrees are from a Bible college and a theological seminary, and he grew up an evangelical. Strangesad (talk) 16:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

No, leave it as it is. Neither Bertrand Russell nor Richard Dawkins for example have the slightest expertise in the field. Johnbod (talk) 17:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't knowwhat you're geting at. I am saying something about giving the reader more information about Ehrman's background and what he means by "scholar." As a reader, I would assume the appropriate scholar is a historian. Ehrman means only a professor in New Testament studies. In other words, Ehrman's definition excludes Michael Grant.... Do you happen to know the religious demographics of people who pursue New Testament degrees? Strangesad (talk) 17:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I think we should not be discussing the background of these sources, as it is using wikipedia's voice to bolster or weaken the arguments, which is a form of WP:OR Gaijin42 (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The only reason that Ehrman's agnosticism and secularism are mentioned is because some misguided souls argue that the sources which say that the non-existence of Jesus is a fringe view are not to be trusted because they are religious, and religious people are not to be trusted in these matters, no matter what their qualifications are. If people would stop making this argumentum ad hominem, then the response would not be necessary. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The book review you cite says Ehrman defines "serious scholar" as "one holding a PhD ... and currently tenured in the field of New Testament studies" but I would like to see a quote from Ehrman himself saying that. I am sure he would not say that Michael Grant was not a serious scholar as he was one of the most respected classical historians of the 20th century. It is only here on WP talk pages that I have ever seen Grant dismissed as a writer of "popular books" who speciality was coins. Ehrman is excluding self published authors and bloggers such as Earl Doherty, Robert Carrier and D.M. Murdock but does say that mythicist Robert Price is a serious scholar.Smeat75 (talk) 19:14, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

It is common to indicate the person's background when it might be of interestr, or indicate a slant on the source's perspective. For example, many Misplaced Pages articles refer to sources as "liberal" or "conservative" and so on. This article often does the same. A priest obviously has a conflict of interest in this subject. someone with a highly evangelical background is going to prone to certain perspectives and assumptions. Strangesad (talk) 18:13, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I meant Richard Carrier above, not Robert. I think identifying sources' religious beliefs or lack of them, or backgrounds, is superfluous and in poor taste.Smeat75 (talk) 00:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Everyone who has more than a passing interest in Early Christian history should know about Ehrman, and they can get a good start on that if they click his hyper-linked name. However, it is in fact highly unusual to give details to someone's background when merely citing them. What might be of more interest to the reader than his background is Ehrman's current standing: If Ehrman has his own original thought published on any aspect of either Early Christian history or New Testament textual criticism, then every other scholar writing on that aspect cites Ehrman, because he is so well-respected in the field. That tells you a lot more about the value of his perspective than the fact that he went to Moody. But this article is not about Ehrman, it's about Jesus, so there's no good reason to go into such matters for this article. If his background is there to indicate a slant on his perspective, what slant is supposed to be indicated? What slant does Ehrman have, and what reliable sources indicate that he has that slant? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

What I'm saying is: If you're trying to help the reader contextualise Ehrman's opinion so that they have some understanding of the authority of his opinion, then rather than trying to make his opinion seem to be of dubious authority, you should be trying to make his opinion seem to be of the utmost authority, because he is such a well-regarded historian of Early Christianity. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:56, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I haven't read Ehrman's book. However, there is no reason to think the book reviewer is lying, and it is highly consistent with Ehrman's remarks on the Huffington Post. There he also equates respectable scholars with people who hold positions in religion departments and have degrees in New Testament Studies.. This is not what we lead the reader to expect when we say "virtually all scholars." Strangesad (talk) 05:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is a direct quote from Ehrman's book: "none is written by ... scholars trained in New Testament or early Christian studies teaching at the major, or even the minor, accredited theological seminaries, divinity schools...of the thousands of scholars of early Christianity who do teach at such schools, none of them to my knowledge has any doubt Jesus existed. But a whole body of literature ...some of it highly intelligent and well-informed makes this case....a couple of bona fide scholars--not professors teaching religious in universities but scholars nonetheless, and at least one of them with a Ph.D in the field of New Testament--have taken this position."

So, he repeatedly equates experts with religion professors (i.e. himself). He also states that some bona fide scholars have argued Jesus didn't exist. Of course, elsewhere he uses terms like "virtually all." That's what you get when you cite a popular book. This article distorts the source. Strangesad (talk) 05:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

You missed a word: he wrote "... teaching religious studies in universities ...". And I think we should note what he wrote immediately after: "Their books ... do occupy a noteworthy niche as a (very) small but (often) loud minority voice. Once you tune into this voice, you quickly learn just how persistent and vociferous it can be." --Stfg (talk) 15:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

You deleted a lot of sources on spurious grounds and you once again altered the second sentence of the lead, which is a paraphrase of a direct quote from Bart Ehrman as cited. You do not have consensus for these changes. Show me anywhere in any WP guideline or policy that forbids or discourages use of "popular books". Is it OK to cite "unpopular books" in your opinion? It is a ridiculous, meaningless phrase. Please see WP:RS - " Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both." Please stop your disruptive edits to this article. Smeat75 (talk) 12:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

"Second paragraph" of the lead, not sentence, I meant. Smeat75 (talk) 13:08, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

My "spurious" grounds for deleting the sources is that they don't actually support the text in the question. They don't say what we say they say. That's not spurious, that's honest. As for Ehrman, I am adding to the use of his popular book. Your comments seem a bit in denial. If it is OK to cite Ehrman's book when implying no credible sources are mythicists, then why isn't it OK to cite that exact same book when he says that, OK, actually, there are some credible mythicists? What we really should do is inform the reader of what Ehrman means. When he says "virtually all" what he means is all religion professors currently holding a position at a university (+ Bible college and seminary). When he says there a some "bona fide" skeptics, he is using a broader definition of "scholar." Instead of trying to whitewash the diversity, inform the reader of it. Strangesad (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Non-Christian Sources

"Non-Christian sources used to establish the historical existence of Jesus include the works of first-century historians Josephus and Tacitus. Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman has stated that "few have doubted the genuineness" of Josephus' reference to Jesus in book 20 of the Antiquities of the Jews, and it is disputed only by a small number of scholars. Tacitus referred to Christ and his execution by Pilate in book 15 of his work Annals. Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus to be both authentic and of historical value as an independent Roman source."

I've looked at all these sources. None of them state that the manuscripts in question establish the existence of jesus. They are concenred with whether the passages referring to jesus were actually written by Josephus and Tacitus (respectively). All say that virtually nobody thinks the Josephus passage is authentic as written; most think there was some reference to Jesus which was embellished subsequently. The article also omits the relevant detail that these writers lived several generations after the death of Jesus and are not eye-witness accounts. Strangesad (talk) 05:57, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Policy on Reliable Sources

Found some relevant text in the policy on reliable sources:

• Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Sometimes "non-neutral" sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "According to the opinion columnist Maureen Dowd..." or "According to the opera critic Tom Sutcliffe..."
• "Care should be taken with journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view."

These are actionable problems. The majority of publishers in the "existence" section of this article are imprints with a mission of promoting Jesus. Obviously, a publisher whose Web site says “Eerdmans has long been known for publishing a wide range of Christian and religious books, from academic works in Christian theology, biblical studies, religious history, and reference to popular titles in spirituality....” meets the criterion of existing to promote a particular view. And when half the sourcing is that one publisher, care has not been taken. Strangesad (talk) 06:10, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Argument from silence

FutureT has now reverted this edit twice, without discussion in Talk: . It adds quotes from the sources already in the article, and tweaks the wording to more accurately reflect what they say (they say arguments from silence are a legitmate tool). Strangesad (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The way you have worded it doesn't fit in well with the rest of the section. – Quadell 17:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

This has been discussed before. See Talk:Jesus/Archive 120#Disruptive edit to introduction.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The extended quotes seem to be WP:SYNTH or WP:OR - they are not discussing arguments from silence in the context of Jesus are they? (If the sources are used elsewhere in the article, my objection would probably apply to that location as well)Gaijin42 (talk) 17:41, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

If you think it is synthesis, would you like to remove it? Strangesad (talk) 05:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Van Voorst, the other source in that section, is a pastor: Less expert on historical method and less objective about Jesus than the sources in question. If they contradict his view, his should be removed. His view doesn't really contradict theirs, however, it is just slanted more to the critical side, without mentioning that argument from silence is considered legitimate but imperfect (like all historical tools). As for being applied to jesus, no they don't apply it to Jesus, but I didn't add these sources, I'm just clarifying what they say. I would support removing all text on argument from silence from this article. Strangesad (talk) 17:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Voorst is discussing the argument from silence directly in the context of the historicity of Jesus. That nobody has refuted that argument, within the topic of Jesus, is not a cause to remove his statement. Have proponents of the argument from silence discussed the appropriateness of that argument? "Argument from silence" is widely described as a logical fallacy. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:02, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

It is not widely described as a logical fallacy, as the sources contained in this article demonstrate. The logical fallacy stuff is a strawman: arguments ex silencio do not prove anything, so it is a fallacy to use them in that way. But no historical arguments proves anything. Read the sources. I did nothing but add quotes from the sources already in the article, and change the wording to reflect what they actually say. If you suddenly don't like the sources, delete them. Van Voorst, however, is much less reliable on historical method than historians, so it would be odd to keep him and delete them. Strangesad (talk) 18:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Since those historians are not commenting about Jesus at all, they are a clear violation of WP:SYNTH (used anywhere in the article probably). voorst deos not suffer from that problem. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:14, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should user:Strangesad be topic banned from Jesus articles? His consistent promotion of a fringe viewpoint is disruptive imo.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

AN/I is thataway. This page is for discussion of article content itself. Evanh2008  18:24, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Such concerns are best raised at one of the noticeboards, like WP:AN, rather than here. John Carter (talk) 18:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree that ANI is the proper venue, but I think his behavior is unlikely to be considered disruptive enough for a topic ban. (Which is not to say that I don't think he is disruptive. I do. Just that the bar for a topic ban is REALLY REALLY disruptive :)) Gaijin42 (talk) 18:36, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I wasn't sure if a topic ban was appropriate, which is why I started this thread. Thanks for the clarification.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

On the other hand, warnings or temporary blocks for disruptive editing and edit warring are a much lower hurdle to cross. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:11, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Yes, Strangesad should most definitely be topic banned. Strangesad has spent months edit warring on this topic. Strangesad has actively encouraged sockpuppetry to get support for her fringe views. Strangesad has verbally attacked countless of users who disagree with her, and admins who take decisions she doesn't like. While the actions this August would be enough for a topic ban if isolated, Strangesad's enormously disruptive behavior over this same topic during the spring this year came very close to seeing her topic ban already back then.Jeppiz (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

For those of you who don't know, a discussion on what to do with Strangesad has been started here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Request swift admin intervention to prevent further disruption to the Jesus article by User Strangesad.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:46, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the notice, FT. Now that the case at WP:AN has been started, I do feel very strongly that discussion of possible sanctions should not be continued here. This article talk page is not the right place to hold a side discussion. Shall we perhaps manually archive this section, without waiting for Miszabot's 21-day period? --Stfg (talk) 22:18, 9 August 2013 (UTC)\

Proposed minor change in first paragraph

I propose changing

Christians believe Jesus to be the awaited Messiah of the Old Testament and refer to him as Jesus Christ, a name that is also used by non-Christians.

to the following (change in bold):

Christians believe Jesus to be the awaited Messiah of the Old Testament and refer to him as Jesus Christ, a name that is also used by some non-Christians.

This is a minor change, but give the edit warning, I am bring it here for discussion. I propose this because it is inaccurate to state unequivocally that non-Christians use the term "Jesus Christ". Adding "some" would further clarify the point that many use the term "Jesus Christ" and treat it has him name, but acknowledging that not all people do this. Note, I considered using "most" but I think that would only apply to English-speaking countries and we do not have any data saying what percentage of people use the term. The use of "some" seemed the most neutral to me. Thank you. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure. The proposal looks okay to me. We can do that or just remove the "a name that is also used by non-Christians" part.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Adding "some" looks to me like an improvement. --Stfg (talk) 21:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree and apologies to EvergreenFir for the revert. I just saw the edit notice and thought it was one of those things that was going to cause a huge explosion. --Laser brain (talk) 21:12, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Completely in favor of adding "some", good proposed change.Jeppiz (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages featured articles
• Featured articles that have not appeared on the main page
• Old requests for peer review
• Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors
• All unassessed articles
• FA-Class Religion articles
• Top-importance Religion articles
• WikiProject Religion articles
• FA-Class Christianity articles
• Top-importance Christianity articles
• FA-Class Christian theology articles
• Top-importance Christian theology articles
• Christian theology work group articles
• FA-Class Saints articles
• Top-importance Saints articles
• WikiProject Saints articles
• FA-Class Catholicism articles
• Top-importance Catholicism articles
• WikiProject Catholicism articles
• FA-Class Eastern Orthodoxy articles
• Unknown-importance Eastern Orthodoxy articles
• WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy articles
• FA-Class Oriental Orthodoxy articles
• Top-importance Oriental Orthodoxy articles
• WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy articles
• FA-Class Jewish Christianity articles
• Top-importance Jewish Christianity articles
• WikiProject Jewish Christianity articles
• FA-Class Anglicanism articles
• Top-importance Anglicanism articles
• WikiProject Anglicanism articles
• FA-Class Latter Day Saint movement articles
• Top-importance Latter Day Saint movement articles
• WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement articles
• WikiProject Christianity articles
• FA-Class Islam-related articles
• Mid-importance Islam-related articles
• WikiProject Islam articles
• FA-Class biography articles
• FA-Class biography (core) articles
• Core biography articles
• Top-importance biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• FA-Class Bahá'í Faith articles
• High-importance Bahá'í Faith articles
• WikiProject Bahá'í Faith articles
• FA-Class Bible articles
• Top-importance Bible articles
• WikiProject Bible articles
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press
• Misplaced Pages articles that use American English