Misplaced Pages

• You really shouldn't use ad hominem attacks against other people simply because they disagree with you. By saying that we're all crazy right-wing neo-cons that belong at Conservapedia, you're essentially making a personal attack against other contributors. Address the content, and not the person. Also, why should people with different views to you have to leave for Conservapedia? Is Misplaced Pages your super secret clubhouse, for like-minded pro-(whatever) people only? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 13:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Please don't misunderstand me, Benlisquare. I never said that you are all "crazy right-wing neo-cons". In fact, I never said that about anyone. I clearly said that I understand those who support the proposal on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME and who thus have different views than I. I do understand them, although I disagree with them (as explained above using examples of women who are referred to by their preferred name rather than by their overhwelmingly more common name). Please note the conjuction "but", which seperates these users from those that "I thought had moved to Conservapedia". Instead of citing valid arguments, the latter only shout out that Manning has a penis. Nothing more, unless you include repeatedly and as prominently as possible pointing out that they consider her a "he". Therefore, I have addressed the content, and I have clearly distinguished people with reasonable arguments from people with purely bigoted screeching. Surtsicna (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge is not a pertinent example, because articles about royalty are covered by special naming conventions that overrule WP:COMMONNAME. - Cal Engime (talk) 14:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Firstly, WP:NCROY is about formats, not about contents of article titles. Secondly, articles about transgender people are also covered by special naming conventions that just as much overrule WP:COMMONNAME. Surtsicna (talk) 15:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• No, MOS:IDENTITY is not a naming convention; it is a guideline for article content, and WP:COMMONNAME often overrides respect for article subjects' wishes. Many good examples have already been given: late in life, Malcolm X adopted the name El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, but he is still referred to as Malcolm X, so that is what we call him. Cat Stevens adopted Yusuf Islam as his personal, professional, and legal name 35 years ago, but it is as Cat Stevens that people will look for information about him. If we want to follow policies and guidelines, the title should be Bradley Manning, but the content should begin "Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning) is..." and use feminine pronouns. - Cal Engime (talk) 15:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• WP:COMMONNAME does not appear to "override respect for article subjects' wishes" when it comes to Hillary Clinton Hillary Rodham Clinton and Kate Middleton Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, which is what I originally noted. Surtsicna (talk) 15:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia not a "Have your wishes granted here" sort of thing, if the media is calling the person "Bradley Manning" then we follow and call the person Bradley Manning its simple as that. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I just named two women who got their wishes granted despite the fact that the media only seldom uses their preferred names. It's obviously not as simple as you claim it is. Surtsicna (talk) 19:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support a move back to Bradley Manning per WP:COMMONNAME Eopsid (talk) 13:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Keep it at Chelsea Manning As others have said, MoS:Identity is clear on the pronoun issue. While it doesn't directly speak on the title issue, the principles remain the same when a person has clearly expressed a desire to be known by a different name for reasons of gender identity. Similarly the basic ideal of BLP strongly supports us sticking with the subject's preference. IMO, as I mentioned above, these two do ultimately supercede COMMONNAME in this as they do in other cases. I originally planned to support a move back to Bradley Manning in the event of no consensus based on our normal practice is to stick with the earlier version in the event of no consensus of a disputed change but on further consideration I think that shouldn't apply here. In the event of no consensus a subject's clear preference should be the default option. I do not consider this similar to the case of Burma/Myanmar or Ivory Coast/Côte d'Ivoire (where incidentally I support both Myanmar and Côte d'Ivoire) because although the government has expressed a clear preference for the name in English, the issue is on a far lesser scale than a person's gender preference. Similarly for case like a mildly offensive but common nickname. This seems to be similar for Chad Johnson although I don't really get the relevance of that case anyway, our article was titled Chad Ochocinco for most of the time he was known as that, when he changed back his name we changed it back as well. It's true we didn't have the space for a year or two and we never followed the 'Hachi Go' which from what I can tell, wasn't even seriously followed by Chad. A more comparable example I can think of would be something like Malcolm X, where someone abandons their former surname because of their extreme dislike of how they came to have that surname. (Similar examples may be a kidnapping victim or someone abandoning a name given to them by abusive parent/s or where say a person who finds out they're descendent from someone who renamed themselves to try and escape persecution and choses to completely embrace their ancestral name.) While some may suggest this means we should name the article Malcolm Shabazz or Malik el-Shabazz, from what I can tell although that name was used and may have been preferred, they didn't have similar hostile feelings towards the name Malcolm X. In any case, I consider this whole discussion somewhat of a waste of time. I'm reasonably sure within a few weeks, if not in the 7 days of a normal RM, it's going to become clear Chelsea Manning is her common name so the issue will be moot. I only bothered to reply in the hope it will help clarify the issue for future cases where the limited number of reliable sources and interest may make it more difficult. BTW, on the Brianna issue, if she later decides she would prefer Brianna but most sources still use Chelsea, I would have no problem sticking with Chelsea unless there is similarly a very good reason to use Brianna. (The same of it had been in reverse.) Nil Einne (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Because, for one, MOS:IDENTITY requires Misplaced Pages to respect the gender identity of biographical subjects, and two, legal names and biological sex has no bearing on how a subject is identified by the encyclopedia. "Norma Jean Mortenson" is listed as Marilyn Monroe, and Joshua Abraham Norton, the self-proclaimed Emperor of San Francisco, is called Emperor Norton. Gender identity is not comparable to those two examples, of course, but they do demonstrate that the encyclopedia's commitment to "fact" doesn't require it to use legal recognition as an all-important criteria. theBOBbobato (talk) 14:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Suppport Bradley Manning is the common name, and also the name used for all the most notable activity (I haven't seen a source that refers to Chelsea Manning without mentioning Bradley Manning). Manning also went by Brianna Manning before as the above notes. If Chelsea becomes Manning's established name then we can change at that point, but at the moment this move violates WP:CRYSTAL. Misplaced Pages isn't the place to right great wrongs; change the world, and it will eventually be reflected in this article, not the other way around, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose She has made clear her desire to be known as Chelsea Manning and we should respect that. The redirect from her old name to her new name is sufficient. edd (talk) 14:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support until such time that the majority of reliable sources begin to refer to him as Chelsea and/or he legally changes his name to Chelsea. Even then, there seems to be no reason to change the gender of pronouns in the article until Manning undergoes some kind of sexual reassignment surgery. His body is clearly still male, referring to him as "she", while respectful of his wishes, only serves to confuse the reader. Which do we value more, having a factual and easy-to-understand article on Manning, or going to great lengths to respect Manning's wishes. What would we do if Manning came out tomorrow and said that he'd like to be considered a dog instead of a human, that we should refer to him as Rover, and use "it" instead of "he/she"? Manning can say that he wants to be a girl all he wants, but the fact remains that he's not. ‑Scottywong| talk _ 14:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• I think a comparison in any way involving dogs (or other non-humans) may not be the most civil way to approach this issue. That approach may offend some people. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Although I may contradict my last comment on this page, unless "Chelsea" is Manning's nickname I oppose the move. He's still a man, and he's still named Bradley legally speaking. There's no documents about his name and sex change... yet. But for now the title should be named "Bradley Manning". Just use his custom name as a sidenote. Hitmonchan (talk) 14:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support return to "Bradley Manning" (with "Chelsea as a redirect) - At the moment, reliable sources are still overwhelmingly calling the subject "Bradley". So, per WP:COMMONNAME "Bradley" should continue to be the title of the article. That said... we should re-evaluate the situation in a month or so. If it can be established that sources are changing their usage to reflect Manning's preference, then I would heartily support a new RM to move the title to "Chelsea". Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. WP:COMMONNAME "the new name is going to become widely recognized extremely soon" means it is not recognized now. Therefore the move to change the title from the one users of Misplaced Pages are expected to know was premature. We are responding to a statement made in the current news cycle. Apparently in the past Manning has expressed a desire to have a different first name and Manning can pick a different name to be called tomorrow. That should not govern how an encyclopedia, even a wiki-pedia titles its articles. Within the article itself there can be clarification as to the person's chosen name. I think this issue is similar to that of countries wanting to be called by another name than the one recognized by the rest of the world. I am not making light of the feelings and frustrations relating to gender identity, and I understand that country names don't concern gender identity, but issues of identity, including ethnic and religious identity, are very strongly felt. Using ] can give great offense in a number of areas, but the purpose of using the Common Name is to facilitate the user's ability to locate the correct article. The example of Cat Stevens, which is not his birth certificate name nor his preferred name, is one where the ] has been kept. Whatever name is chosen will lead to some confusion, but that is to be expected any time a famous person changes their name; as in the Cat Stevens article, the confusion can be easily cleared up in the first sentence. Ileanadu (talk) 15:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support revert to Bradley Manning. A move to Chelsea Manning may be in order soon, depending on whether the new name catches on, but doing this move precipitously on the day of his announcement of what he wants to be called was inappropriate. We don't retitle company or band or person articles just because they announce a new thing they want to be called. And while I respect the gender identity decision, we again need to wait and see just how real it is, as opposed to a sentencing-day stunt. Give it a few days at least and let's watch and talk about it. Dicklyon (talk) 16:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Per WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley is still his name and he is still a he until he changes both his name and undergoes the necessary treatments to become a woman. In addition, until sources start solely printing his name as "Chelsea", it needs to stay as Bradley. For example, if my name is John (and I'm notable) and prefer to be called Johnny, but all the media prints it as John, then my wikipedia page should say John.--Giants27(T|C) 16:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose move. Leave it where it is, per WP:BLP, WP:IDENTITY and the subject's clearly-stated wish. Preferred name and gender identity should be respected. The lead makes it clear she was identified as male and Bradley, Bradley Manning redirects here, a Google search for "Bradley Manning" finds "Bradley Manning - Misplaced Pages, the 💕" which redirects here. No one will have any problems finding this article whichever of the two terms they use, in a search engine or our search box. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Again there is NOTHING in WP:BLP that covers this and under WP:IDENTITY it points to policies including WP:TITLECHANGES as this does not have to do with article content but an article's title. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• • • Yes, it violates the very spirit and fundamental principles of BLP. Josh Gorand (talk) 18:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
      • "Yes it does" without showing where or discussing is not an argument - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose as per WP:BLP, WP:IDENTITY, and the subject's wishes. Lawsonstu (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. The precedent I'll go by is Sears Tower, which redirects to some name I never heard of but apparently is used. The newest name generally wins in article titling. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use the old name wherever appropriate, just that the article is "about" the newest name, and the person using an old name is the one who expects to be updated. I say "for now", however, because the media mentions are still under 50%, the change isn't legal, and so there is considerable reason to wonder if the change will ever really catch on. It was premature to move the article but it's pointless to move it back unless we see reason to think "Bradley" will continue to be the COMMONNAME. Wnt (talk) 17:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. As per the definitions of Transgender people, and as per Chelsea's declared wishes, the Chelsea Manning site should remain where it is. Hurtsmyears (talk) 17:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Putting other policies and guidelines aside for a moment, how did the R in WP:BRD get skipped? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that the article was moved, protected, and now we're discussing whether to move it back to the title at which it has been stable for, what, years now? Aren't we missing something in between moving and protecting? V_oBEDD 17:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Support. It isn't a legal name change yet. If she gets a deed poll, fine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonie148 (talk • contribs)

• Oppose. I can't say that I read all of the above comments, but MOS:IDENTITY provides that we should be using pronouns that accord with their expressed gender. It's true that as some pointed out that the name "Chelsea Manning" isn't a pronoun, so obviously that guidance is in some regard tangential, but really, it would be ludicrous to have an article "Bradley Manning" that exclusively used female pronouns. Furthermore, even leaving this issue to one side, I believe that we should not necessarily follow the majority of reliable sources with respect to this particular sort of naming issue in the BLP context. Maybe this is a POV thing to say, but I think that following the majority of media sources on this point just promotes systemic bias against people with gender dysphoria. A lot of people just don't understand and haven't thought about the difference between gender and sex, or what it means to be transgender. Furthermore, some media outlets do agree with us; the AP style manual says "reporters should use the name and pronouns preferred by a transgender person" (see here) and the press appears to be evolving on this one (see here; NYT has been removing male pronouns, for instance). Finally, what I personally believe is that, if someone identifies themselves as a female and says that they've felt as though they were a female since birth – which is exactly what the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning said – then who are we to say "Wrong! You have a penis, so you're a man!" AgnosticAphid talk 18:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • This move discussion is about an article's title change not about it's content. - 18:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Obviously, but you must have overlooked the fact that I already said "it would be ludicrous to have an article "Bradley Manning" that exclusively used female pronouns." AgnosticAphid talk 18:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support renaming to Bradley Manning per WP:COMMONNAME. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 18:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• I want to seek a technical Support / return to original title. It's noteworthy, though, that different news agencies seem to go different ways (with most still using the legal name for various reasons - some explained, some not):
  1. CNN's video on Manning's statement stated that it will keep using the current legal name (about 1 min into the video)
  2. A New York Times blogger referring to the NYT's MoS which has provision to keep a newsworthy name against the subject's wish (Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns (he, his, she, her, hers) preferred by the transgender person - original emphasis removed)
  3. Reuters uses the legal name
  4. ABC News reports kept the legal name usage as primary, but one of its opinion pieces supports the change
  5. CBS News also keeps the original legal name in use.
• NBC News clearly has switched to preferred name by Manning in multiple articles

• Oppose. There is a redirect from her former name to here and to move/rename it a 4th time would serve no useful purpose. The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 19:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Per WP:COMMONNAME, until consensus in sources and the public reflects a transition to Chelsea Manning. Also would support the use of female pronouns throughout the "Bradley Manning" article, reflecting WP:IDENTITY. On a side note, it is disturbing that so many editors have taken it upon themselves to act unilaterally in the moves of this article and are consistently assuming bad faith. NewAccount4Me (talk) 19:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. :: That she is "biologically" male is dubious as a categorical claim. She may have male genitals, but she has also been biologically determined to identify and act as a female in many ways. It's pretty clear to me that personal identification, particularly on a BLP, should trump wrongheaded notions of what we consider to be her "objective" gender. Steeletrap (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support: This should have been handled by BRD, instead it was Bold, Revert, Bold, Lock. In fact, the right thing to do here is move it back to Bradley, and then have a 7-day discussion about moving it to Chelsea. But since that's not happening, the argument that it should stay at Bradley for now is first WP:COMMONNAME, since Bradley is common, and second that reliable sources are still treating Manning as "Bradley, who wants to be called Chelsea". I've heard two radio news reports (CBS and an AP report) in the last half hour, which are still calling Manning a him, that wants to be a her. I'm sensitive of the plight of the transgendered to gain acceptance, but this article is not your WP:SOAPBOX. It's supposed to be a collection of human knowledge, and at the moment we have a lot more knowledge of Bradley than we do of Chelsea. Livit⇑/_What? 19:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Misplaced Pages's actual clients -- you know, general readers not familiar wp-this and wp-that -- are going to expect to find an article on the name that's been in the news for months. During the notable part of the person's life they were know as Bradley so that's what the article should be titled. NE Ent 01:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's actual clients are going to find this article no matter which title they search on, because the redirect from her former name means they'll still get here anyway. Bearcat (talk) 04:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

You're right. However it's still interesting to look at what people are searching for: Bradley Manning vs Chelsea Manning Even with the front page ITN linking to Chelsea Manning, people are still using the Bradley search term more often by a significant magnitude. It might be something to look into a bit - perhaps it might represent what the majority still currently believe his name is? Before we make crystal ball predictions on whether this current trend may change, keep in mind that we make decisions based on the present, and not for the future. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Redirects: Cheap, easy, free. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• This is probably what you are looking for: . IRWolfie- (talk) 14:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY

For all those citing MOS:IDENTITY, that guideline relates to the content of the article not the the title of the article. This discussion is a move discussion. It relates solely to the title of the article, NOT the content of the article. The relevant policy page for this discussion is Misplaced Pages:Article titles.

I cannot even begin to imagine why people are citing WP:BLP. There are no BLP concerns affecting this discussion from what I can see.

--RA (✍) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The general principle of BLP is that we have to have respect for individuals when we're smearing their names across the internet. I think it's misapplied here since we're confusing the reader to aggressively support the person's decisions, and that goes well beyond the dispassionate but polite concern expected for a Misplaced Pages article. Even if the policy says nothing specifically, the sense of the policy is correctly applied when being careful about how we talk about living people. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Hobit, we have no need to look to BLP. Policy on article titles like Octomom is given in Misplaced Pages:Article titles (explicitly in that case). A title like "Bradley Manning" is not akin to "Octomom". Yesterday, there was no ambiguity about this person's name - or any sense that it may have carried offence. It was simply "Bradley Manning". Today, they asked to be called something else. We can mention that but we don't have to rename the article because of it. --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

*.92, you raise a good point. I find something upsetting in the way the article was so aggressively altered and moved on the back of Manning's statement. It doesn't matter if the article is a little behind the latest tattle. We should be more sensitive before jumping and move with a greater degree of care on BLPs (where there is no urgent need for modification). --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

He is one of more than 6,000,000,000 people, he is just as special as everyone else. If he wanted to change his name to 'Barak Obama' we would not be having this discussion, the page would remain his legal name of Bradley Manning. VictusB (talk) 23:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Define what you mean by "respect". It certainly doesn't, even as a general principle, mean that articles should only contain information that the living person would choose to have in the article. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Misplaced Pages's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Misplaced Pages who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree, it is profoundly disrespectful. I think that brings WP:BLP into this. Hobit (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

One would expect the title of an article to be consistent of its contents. Misplaced Pages:Article titles also states that the naming guidelines should be used be interpreted in conjunction with other policies Vexorian (talk) 03:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: I just noticed that Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Article titles includes the following phrase:

The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title.

This would mean that MOS:IDENTITY applies to the article title. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the close

Just noting here that I've asked on WP:AN/RFC and WP:AN/I for an admin to close this who has had no prior involvement with the page. Hopefully that will make the close as uncontentious as possible. SlimVirgin 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Gender identity

Is Bradley legally a female or male? In the article United States v. Manning Bradley prefers to be known as a female, Chelsea Manning, so it seems Bradley is a male, but like to be refered to as a female, so should we refer to Bradley as a male of female in this and the United States v. Manning? Casey.Grim85 (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Bradley's legal status is actually irrelevant. The style guide states Misplaced Pages should refer to Manning using female pronouns. —me_and 17:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

To be clear, there is debate as to what "The style guide" says, and how it applies, you should go read the debate yourself if you are truly interested. Many people are arguing that MOS:IDENTITY dosn't really apply in this case. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay I was just wondering it all! Casey.Grim85 18:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes. There are plenty of trans-women who still have male sexual organs, but consider themselves "women". Gender != biology. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there is no single identifier that makes a "biological female". Whatever identifier you use will exclude many women and include many men (and the opposite for "biological male"). Biology is not perfect. --Dee Earley (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

He will serve his sentence in United States Disciplinary Barracks, which is a male prison. So in the eyes of the law he is definitely a man. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not the United States, and we don't have to describe people only in terms of their relation to US law. A trans person does not detransition just because they move to a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision for transition. Legal recognition, like surgery, is typically quite a late stage of transition. One must typically identify and live as one's chosen gender for some time before either becomes available. And let's not lose sight of the fact that Manning's access to female socialization, and to HRT, are artificially restricted by her status as a US federal prisoner. She's done about the only thing she currently can to signal to the world that this is her identity. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Manning's gender is female. She has clearly stated this. Her biological sex does not reflect her gender, but that does not change the fact that her gender is female. The pronouns we use should reflect gender, not sex; so yes, it does make sense to refer to Manning as "she". 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Manning is male. He might decide that he "identifies with" a oblique Vulcan transhuman tomale, but that doesn't make it true. Kotowing to the latest politically correct fad impresses very few and does little for wikipedias already shaky credibility.

And throwing in your biased opinion without even signing your name does absolutely nothing for your credibility whatsoever. As such, we're quite in our rights to ignore your post completely until you learn how to use the signature. Like so: Blackbird_4 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

"Support" comments riddled with transphobic commentary

Please keep the discussion ontopic w.r.t. the page name and proper pronouns to use. Accusations of editor misbehavior belong elsewhere. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The comments in support of moving the article on the individual who self-identifies as Chelsea Manning to her former name in the above survey are riddled with transphobic hate commentary (e.g. "If I had a Misplaced Pages article and then I suddenly claimed to be a dog"), that have absolutely nothing to do with Misplaced Pages policy, such as MOS:IDENTITY, and that should be completely discarded. As someone said, the move was a straightforward application of Misplaced Pages policy such as MOS:IDENTITY, WP:BLP, WP:RS and other relevant policies, and there is really nothing to discuss. There is no way this article is going to be moved anywhere. Filling this talk page with hate commntary and transphobia also violates WP:BLP, which also applies on talk pages. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Last I knew, Misplaced Pages policy applications were on a consensus basis, not the decision of one editor or even a group of editors. The move decision has not yet been made so there is plenty to discuss.Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:46, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Equally, I am deeply troubled by the idea of factoring visibly transphobic reasoning into any decision. The comments that are various forms of "but I reject trans identities" are problematic on several levels. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• • • If the sole stated rationale for moving back to Bradley Manning is that the voter does not like transgendered people, I tend to agree that that vote should be ignored, as it's a nonsensical rationale. However, if there is rational argument mixed in with bigotry, the rational argument should not be ignored -- even bigots can have good points once you filter out the bigotry. The implication by many opposing the move that anyone supporting the move is transphobic ipso facto is not helpful either. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

"Consensus" doesn't overrule policy, and especially not BLP. Especially not a "consensus" of virulently transphobic people who completely ignore Misplaced Pages policy. We don't move articles because some people hate transgendered people, it's that simple. Josh Gorand (talk) 02:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps some of us, though I only speak for myself, really do not put any weight or credence in this sort of gender-bending stuff. Not every person on the planet subscribes to a liberal/progressive ideology, and I know it may ruffle your feathers but being conservative-minded is not thoughtcrime nor is it a disease or a mental disorder; our beliefs and ideology are just as soundly held as yours are. This guy is "Bradley Manning", a man and a male, both sex and gender. Period. Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make a heifer become Marilyn Monroe y'know. Tarc (talk) 02:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

You're certainly entitled to that belief, and to your apparent belief that Manning is comparable to various farm animals. This does not, however, mean that Misplaced Pages policy should be influenced by the rejection of trans identities. We decided to take trans identities seriously a long time ago. Challenge that if you like, but the challenge is to existing policy, not to this specific article. Phil Sandifer (talk) 02:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

That's like saying you don't put any weight or credence in the theory of gravity. Your political leanings don't and shouldn't influence observable fact. Countered (talk) 02:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Ahh, ad hominem bullshit responses, how surprising. WP:Article titles, a policy page that trumps MOS:IDENTITY is in my favor, however. Tarc (talk) 02:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:PA is not; denouncing people by referring to their "bullshit responses" is unacceptable no matter the situation and not a great way for you to remain a part of this project. Haipa Doragon (talk) 02:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:Article titles stresses that one ought consider post-renaming consensus, which is currently mixed and capable of supporting either viewpoint. There are many policies in play here, and trying to think of them in terms of which one reigns supreme is difficult at best. But the discussion here, at least, is about our policies as they are, not about trying to change them to fit someone's personal POV on trans issues. Phil Sandifer (talk) 02:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

So, say you get married and you change your name? Should articles about you be kept in the old name? Many places don't have any concept of a legal name, it's purely what you want to be known as. Ignoring that is just rude. --Dee Earley (talk) 12:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

@Josh Gorand: I'd appreciate you not repeatedly labeling those who don't agree with you as "transphobic". If you have an issue with certain editors, feel free to discuss the matter with them individually. But broadly declaring those who support the return back to Bradley Manning as intolerant and prejudiced is unjustified, insulting, and unproductive. Most of the supporters of this move have cited various applicable policies and refrained from resorting to attacks on the subject's chosen identity. What you feel is a "straightforward application of Misplaced Pages policy" is not so to others; please respect that your opinion is not the only one. -- tariqabjotu 03:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

@Josh Gorand: People are coming up with examples of when it must be allowed that the community plays a role in how an individual is identified. If one's subjective experience of oneself can trump any and all contrary objective presentation this can lead to absurd results, and people are merely pointing that out.--Brian Dell (talk) 08:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Right. This IDENTITY thing is, and undoubtedly will be for some time to come, just wishful thinking. It is too weak in this case’s stage. If the change were from Manning to ‘Womanning’, now that would have been a different story… Alandeus (talk) 10:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

@Josh Gorand: I don't see how having a different opinion to a loud minority makes me the big bad boogeymonster. Should a cis scum like me have to check my cis privilege, simply because I have an certain opinion? I don't see how I have done anything wrong; last time I checked, my civil liberties were something that were guaranteed. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for demonstrating why comments by people like yourself need to be ignored in the decision making process, and for providing a fine example of what I and several other editors have now pointed out ("Should a cis scum like me have to check my cis privilege"). In fact, I see extremely few "support" comments that are policy based, as the current title is the only acceptable title per Misplaced Pages policy for the reasons pointed out, eg., by Sue Gardner in this discussion. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

And "oppose" arguments aren't often based on emotions and feelings? Also, you can ad hominem all you like and ignore any of my points, but in the end it only makes you more unreasonable and stubborn. You seem pretty keen, after all, in trying to avoid any criticism that other people bring to you. The world isn't a walled garden where only things you like exist - people with different opinions do exist, and it's foolish how you are forcing everybody to ignore those who think differently. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 13:54, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:MOS is only a guideline. WP:COMMONNAME is a policy. Policies always trump guidelines. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 10:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bigotry, Knowing and Otherwise

I would like to point out that an alarming number of comments in this discussion are upsettingly dismissive of trans people. Comments that equate being trans to declaring one's self some other species or fictional concept abound, as does a focus on legal names that, while presumably well-meaning, demonstrate a painful lack of awareness of the realities of gender transitions and gender identity.

I would respectfully ask that whoever ends up making the final decision on this - and I don't envy you in the least - dismiss these comments entirely. Reasoning motivated by transphobia, whether borne of genuine ignorance or active malice, has no place in the decision-making of this project. While my view is straightforward - the issue of how to handle trans people's identities was settled ages ago, and relitigating it as part of a large and heated political issue is unwise - I would ask that whatever criteria this issue is ultimately decided on, arguments based on ignorance and bigotry not be given any serious consideration. The underlying principles to consider are existing policy - the Manual of Style, our sourcing policies, our policies regarding respect for living people, and whatever other policies that existed before August 22nd, 2013 are relevant.

Efforts to alter those policies on this talk page are inappropriate. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• This is a discussion of the name change, not the pronoun issue. It's perfectly coherent for the article to be named Bradley Manning and for the pronoun "she" to be used for the person in question, particularly when referring to events after Manning's claim of female gender. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • That doesn't seem like a response to anything I said. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
    • It seemed that you were referring to MOS guidelines on pronoun selection for transgendered persons. Is this incorrect? Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Just be careful your comments aren't otherkin-phobic themselves. In my opinion, the issues of name and pronouns have gotten mixed up. The article name issue is not really about whether Manning is male or female, but about whether Manning is "Bradley" or "Chelsea". Having said that, I appreciate that for many transgender people, the change of name is an important thing. StAnselm (talk) 01:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

And I'd like to congratulate Manning on successfully trolling Misplaced Pages, mass media, and even own supporters at http://www.bradleymanning.org/ --Niemti (talk) 01:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Query over renaming of the article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I know that Manning (I won't use the forename, for reasons to become obvious) wishes to become female, but I don't think we should rename the article yet, since:

1) He has not undergone gender reassignment therapy, and it's unlikely he will do any time soon, since I read and heard that such therapy wasn't available in army facilities 2) He does not wish to be known as a female in official correspondence - see here: "I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility).

Until such time as he has officially become a female, and instructed that he be addressed as "she" in EVERYTHING he does or that involves him, I think that renaming the article "Chelsea Manning" is unwarranted, and I beg to move that the article be reverted to "Bradley Manning".

I support this contention by stating that "Chelsea Manning" does not appear in search results - one must search "Bradley Manning", at which point there is an automatic redirect to the article. Further, Misplaced Pages's "in the news" section states "(legally Bradley Manning)" when referring to him. --The Historian (talk) 23:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that today's declaration was not a legally valid change of name? AlexTiefling (talk) 23:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Why are you starting a new section, instead of contributing to the current discussion at Talk:Chelsea Manning#Requested move? – GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

In the USA, legal name changes are made by the courts upon petition by the subject of the proposed name change. You can call yourself anything you want, but a legal name change (other than taking the "husband's" last name) is done by the courts (and in marriage, that's the State instead of a court.) For example, I call myself HTom, but that is not my legal name. htom (talk) 23:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

None of that matters to the advocate-admins who have hijacked the page. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:40, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

And yet look at the names of many of our articles: Thomas James Gabel, Brian Hugh Warner, and Calvin Cordozar Broadus, Jr., to name a few... I'm not sure where this sudden insurgence of "article name must match legal name" is coming from, but neither policy nor precedent supports it. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

How many of those names were announced by a lawyer the day after their client was convicted? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

How is that relevant? – GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

How are entertainers' stage names relevant to the whims of a convicted criminal? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

They are the names by which they wish to be known, and they are names that came quickly to my mind. Would Vincenzo D'Ambrosio, Charles Arthur Floyd, or Alvin Clarence Thomas be more convincing? – GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Charles Arthur Floyd never referred to himself as Pretty Boy Floyd, and indeed hated that nickname, which proves the pro-Bradley side's point: Misplaced Pages does not respect people's choice of names in other articles, so why start now? Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It has always respected them (AFAIK) with regards to trans people; such issues are not on the same level as nicknames and are much more sensitive. As Manning is now probably the most high-profile trans person in the world, Misplaced Pages should be more vigilant towards these issues, not less. Haipa Doragon (talk) 01:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm certain that Charles Floyd was at least as emotionally upset by being called "Pretty Boy" as Manning will ever be when called "Bradley". Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you're a very good gauge for the emotions of a gangster (without gender or mental health issues) who's been dead eighty years. He's not covered by libel laws, I don't think, either. Haipa Doragon (talk) 03:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The page should be Bradley Manning until he LEGALLY changes his name to Chelsea. The current page is inaccurate IMO. I suppose you could edit his name so that it says Bradley "Chelsea" Manning though.

I have admittedly not actively edited the project in a while, but did we pass some policy that means that convicted criminals get different treatment than other people while I wasn't looking? If not, Baseball Bugs's harping on this point seems spectacularly irrelevant. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Past precedent

For the record, what we did in previous and less politically charged cases:

• Chaz Bono - announced transition on June 11th, article was moved the same day. Surgery was not completed at that time, and the change was made based on his publicist's reports of his preferred identity.
• Lana Wachowski - Edit warred over the course of a year, but changed in December of 2011, months before Lana's first public appearance as a woman.
• Laura Jane Grace - Announced plans to transition in May of 2012. Article was only touched by one editor for several weeks, who opposed moving. Consensus quickly formed to move the article, and it was done within a month of transition with only the original editor objecting.

Those are the three people I can think of who made transitions after they were already notable enough for articles. In all cases the article was moved quickly, prior to surgery, and upon the public announcement of a gender transition. Precedent, of course, is not binding, but it seems to me helpful to consider what we did in less politically charged circumstances. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It is possible that there were far fewer eyes on those articles, so the renaming slipped by. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 04:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure. There are lots of possibilities, and as I said, precedent isn't binding. That said, the fact that this is tied to a contentious political issue is a reason to be cautious about the attention this one is getting. In many ways I trust the project's judgment more when there isn't a huge crowd gawking at a topic. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Personally, my arguments for the page being at Bradley Manning have absolutely nothing to do with her not having transitioned yet, or the name change not being "official" or whatever. The situation is simply whether she is better known as Bradley or Chelsea at this moment in time. U-Mos (talk) 11:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Invasion from reddit

I was wondering why I saw so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars and this is why - there has been three separate links on reddit to communities vested in seeing this page reverted to its original name. While new users are encouraged, this very vote seems to be a form of vandalism perpetrated by a much larger community of users disinterested in the way wikipedia works. It also begs the question as to whether consensus can be reached with so much outside influence. This is actually a fight that's existed on reddit for quite some time - whether gender can be self identified or not. There is a large group of people on reddit who would like nothing better than to tell the rest of the world what they can and can not do with their own self identification. Outside of giving a rundown on the complexities of gender in relation to biological function, and the system in place created to give gender "meaning", I don't think this argument should be on whether gender identity is "real" or not - and that's what this vote has actually become, a way for people on all sides of the issue to soapbox on whether or not they think a person can change their gender identification. This vote is in my mind a farce, and in no way represents the method in which wikipedia reaches consensus. Honestly, outside of the fact that I personally see this fight as an affront to a group of people that have to struggle to maintain their personal identities every day, and outside of the lack of knowledge when it comes to how gender identity works, I am appalled at what a shitshow this has become. Countered (talk) 06:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Can you link to the Reddit thread/posts in question? Haipa Doragon (talk) 07:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

  http://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/1kw14d/a_wikipedia_edit_war_has_started_brace_yourselves
  http://www.reddit.com/r/sjsucks/comments/1kwdp1/the_sjws_are_having_a_field_day_on_bradley/
  http://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/1kvria/i_was_browsing_the_wikipedia_page_of_chelsea/
  http://www.reddit.com/r/editwars/comments/1kw0s2/chelsea_manning_vs_bradley_manning/
  http://www.reddit.com/r/TransphobiaProject/comments/1kx9ji/wikipedians_sure_are_mad_that_bradley_manning_got/

The /r/wikipedia page alone has more than enough votes to have completely shifted the vote on whether or not the name should be changed, and it's clear from the comments which they support. Countered (talk) 07:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, your point of view has been supported by the influx of reddit users, of course you don't mind it. Regardless of which way they are swaying it - they are swaying it none-the-less. If they had been supporting my point of view, I would (and have) linked to their posts (see the last post I linked). Countered (talk) 07:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

First, this is a high profile and immediate issue in American history so hardly surprising editors would show here to opine. People care more about individuals who have had an effect on history, as opposed to celebrities or musicians. If Bill Clinton decided he was the female Clarissa Clinton would we automatically change that article's title and call Clinton a "she" when it was alleged he was raping and assaulting women? Not unless his defense at the time was he really was a woman so how could he have done so, which of course was not his defense. User:Carolmooredc 11:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Please assume good faith; I responded the way I did because that's how I assessed the situation, not because that served my position. I similarly did not accuse you of bringing this up because you want supporting remarks discounted (which is an easy accusation to make). You have no evidence that Reddit has been funneling lots of traffic here, other than "so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars". I don't follow how that shows an influx of Redditors. And, as you even admit, there are posts that also promote the Chelsea Manning title... so I don't see what the problem is. As I said, most of the posts are worded neutrally, and there are Redditors with a variety of positions, even in the most popular of the posts you linked; in fact, the top-rated comment here that expresses an opinion is rather tame, and sparks a remarkably decent debate about the title that doesn't devolve into the patent soapboxing and prejudice you fear. -- tariqabjotu 13:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

You are incorrect in the belief that influx of users via a third party campaign will help your position. Quite the contrary, the views of new users recruited to support a particular POV will be ignored, and not help their cause at all. I see very few support posts worded "neutrally", but tons of posts with what User:Surtsicna above called "pure, policy-unrelated bigotry." I think this discussion was finally settled by Sue Gardner's comment, there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Misplaced Pages policy dictates. This talk page is not the right venue for proposing changes to Misplaced Pages policy. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Your comment had nothing to do with what I said. I, for example, never argued that a third-party campaign helps my position. And I would never say that. Believe it or not, I would like this to be settled by consensus, fair and square. I don't care if this article stays at Chelsea Manning; that outcome would have zero effect on my life, and I understand there are acceptable reasons to do so (now and/or as time goes on). You don't seem to understand this, but discussions on Misplaced Pages are not wars or battles to be won. They're attempts to find out what we should do about a particular issue, given our vast number of guidelines and policies. And, despite your insistence that this is a black-and-white issue, where "there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Misplaced Pages policy dictates", there remains enough ambiguity in our set of policies and guidelines that reasonable people may still have disagreements. As has been pointed out a number of times, your eagerness to resort to labels and attacks on, and condescension toward, those who disagree with you is extremely unhelpful. -- tariqabjotu 15:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

More discussion

Early close

... suggested at ANI. --RA (✍) 01:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Denied, as we are treating this process no differently from any other move request. This is hardly the most contentious discussion that Misplaced Pages has experienced. bd2412 T 02:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

What about WP:TITLECHANGES? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

@BD2412: wonderful. I'm all for that. Let's treat this process no differently. For a start let's follow the instructions at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves: "If the page has recently been moved without discussion, you may revert the move and initiate a discussion on its talk page."

That was done but it was moved again to Chelsea Manning without discussion citing unstated BLP issues. So, for a start, let's get it back to Bradley Manning and conduct this move request "no differently from any other move request". --RA (✍) 08:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

There have seem too many move requests like this, why bother having a policy when it's not used? Then again the process would just begin again with people wanting to change it to Chelsea Manning so the admin are looking at it like this is redundant? Yes it may be but keeping it the way it is without having consensus in the first place for Chelsea just kind of seems wrong. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 11:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Now a days people flout the voluntarily imposed rules and few seem willing to stand up for them. Thus the bad editors drive out the good. User:Carolmooredc 11:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

To be very clear, the page was moved back and forth several times, and then move-locked prior to my volunteering to oversee the discussion. That was a decision of another administrator, and one that I do not believe I can address without a consensus; however, it would be redundant to seek consensus on a title change for the duration of a discussion seeking a title change. No matter what title the page is at for the next few days, a large contingent will be unhappy about it, but in the long run it is the outcome that matters, not the location of the page while that outcome is decided. bd2412 T 12:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

BD2412, I think the discussion is veering in so many different (and sometimes contradictory) directions because of the fact that the page "wound up" at a title that was not the original title. As such, the move request I initiated is to revert back to the original name.. but this would simply be followed by a move request to the new name. So there are two completely different threads to the move request discussion: (1) should the article be moved back to its original title -- in the short term? and (2) what should the article eventually be called -- in the long term? I find it difficult to have a productive discussion when the debate is at such cross purposes. I believe very strongly that the article should have "wound up" at its original title so we can have one single move discussion to the new name, and so people (including myself) weren't frustrated at the fact that the page "wound up" at the new name without consensus. I don't see eye to eye with you on the idea that "in the long run it is the outcome that matters, not the location of the page while that outcome is decided"; in fact, I think moving this page to the new title has skewed the discussion by setting the new name as the de facto standard. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

My reading of policy, specifically of WP:BRD and WP:RM, is that the discussion must be considered in light of the title as it was prior to any contested moves being made. bd2412 T 15:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:COMMONAME

I think we should be careful with the usage of this policy because firstly, this is a current event so citing commmonname so early on after a name change is a bit too early to notice a trend. Secondly, when editors use this argument I hope they search properly by counting only search reutnrs dating from after the name-change announcement. Any admin closure should take al this into account. Pass a Method talk 16:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

List of Wikiprojects that have been alerted

I don't see any mention of this, per WP:Canvass. I looked in a couple likely places and found below. Perhaps people could share if they posted it anywhere so that others can decide if they want to post it on other relevant projects. Feel free to add to list below. User:Carolmooredc 16:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• WikiProject_LGBT_studies
• Others?

How about: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject United States?

Temporary Neutral Alternative: Private Manning

I came up with an idea below, could we agree with the article title to be "Private Manning" until the conclusion of the above RFC?--v/r - TP 18:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

copyright status of black and white photo of Manning wearing wig and lipstick

This photo is sometimes described as "released by US Army" which means prima facie public domain and uploadable to the Commons. But in fact it was "introduced into evidence at his court martial" by the Army and in this way released to the media. Should the photo be considered a work of the US government or not? See the discussion at Commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Lho-133A.jpg.--Brian Dell (talk) 15:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Photo was taken by manning, and they own the copyright. Being reelased by the govt does not make it a govt work. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you're being unclear by using the word "they" here. I thought you meant the government, instead of Manning. Just use a singular pronoun, please. Trinitresque (talk) 16:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

yo 88.66.37.221 (talk) 16:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

To avoid confusion, please use the singular when you're talking about both an individual or an organisation. She for Manning, they for the government. Sophie means wisdom (talk) 17:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

You can't be serious. That editor used "they" in respect for people's different sensitivities, so that neither the pro-she and pro-he people are "offended". They could have perfectly chosen to not do that, and alienate one side or another. You're essentially trying to force other people to adhere by your standards. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

"Small for her age"

"Manning was small for her age – as an adult, she reached 5 ft 2 in (1.57 m) and weighed 105 lb (47.6 kg)"

This is extremely small for a young man, borderline small for a young woman. Is it transphobic to seek clarity for gender-specific issues like this? †TE†Talk 16:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I was unsure about this when I fixed up those pronouns. Honestly, I don't think it's particularly relevant to the article and could probably be deleted entirely. —me_and 16:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course not. Feel free to clarify the text to make it clear that the disparity was relative to her male presentation at the time. If you don't think you can word the text in an appropriate way then ask for suggestions or for help. —Psychonaut (talk) 16:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Not very helpful to mention a weight without tying it to a specific date, since weight fluctuates. Moncrief (talk) 16:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

ThinkEnemies just killed it. —me_and 16:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, just tried to post and bam... another edit conflict. †TE†Talk 16:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Average height of a U.S. woman in 2008 was 164.1 cm (5' 4.6"), so that is not small. It is small for a U.S. male, whose average height is 178.2 cm (5' 10.2"). Source: http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/height-chart.shtml Statistically speaking, 93% of all adult American males are taller than a man 5'4" tall. I cannot remember that source -- my nephew in the UK was very short (his mother is very short) and my brother and sister-in-law were considering growth hormone therapy if the National Health would pay for it -- they would, but you know the NHS -- you have to wait forever. We were born in Canada, a Ted Cruz thing, eh? (English people are shorter, just an observation, and my sister-in-law is English. We're ethnically Anglo-Celtic) The best stats we could find when researching were on The States. (Note: For a U.S. man 6'3" tall, statistically speaking everyone he meets will be shorter; the equivalent was 5'4" tall on the short side, as at 93%, everyone that short U.S. man meets will be taller.) Two and one-half inches in a woman is not that much off the deviation as it would be in a man. (Btw, my nephew grew and is now taller than his dad! Thank you NHS for your delays.) Just because our culture privileges tall women (models), we should not make the error that 5'2", which is less than average in a woman yes but not radically so,is "short for her age."Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 17:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

How about something like... "Manning is smaller than most men," or something? This is confusing...

Though there are not a lot of good statistics due to it being a small population, Manning is more than likely smaller than most trans women. Generally, though, I would challenge the usefulness of such a statement, especially if it is going to create such conflict in narrative. It does not seem factually important to compare Manning's height to other people, and I would question why it is deemed important. 71.90.172.117 (talk) 18:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Please move subpages along with article

2 edit conflicts made me decide to make a subsection. This is just a quick FYI, there are a LOT of sub-pages attached to this article and I just moved all the ones I could find. IF you decide to move again, please make sure that all the relevant pages are attached. Thank you, Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 16:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Reader feedback: add a category in which Mann...

108.49.92.147 posted this comment on 21 August 2013 (view all feedback).

add a category in which Manning is clearly identified as a whistleblower who has exposed war crimes by the US military. add Manning's own statements in full, one in which he pleaded guilty in the beginning of his trial, and the one at the sentencing.

Any thoughts?

Brad (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Probably more useful to discuss why or why not he might be considered a whistleblower. I'm sure there are plenty of quotes out there for both positions. Brad (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Compromising the facts for political correctness

Why is Misplaced Pages referring to a biological male who identified as a male for the periods of time which are most relevant to the article as a female throughout? "Chelsea" was a boy when he was born, he was a boy throughout school, he was a man when he served in the army, he was a man when he did the leaks, he was a man when he was arrested, he was a man for much of his stay in prison.

We should not rewrite her past because she prefers to be seen as a woman now. Misplaced Pages should not sacrifice factual accuracy for the sake of political correctness. I think that we should refer to Chelsea as Bradley during the periods which she was named Bradley, and we should use the appropriate pronouns when we do so.

Let me list some examples of where political correctness results in things not making sense:

"Manning was regarded as small for her age – as an adult, she reached just 5 ft 2 in (1.57 m) and weighed 105 lb (47.6 kg) " As someone brought up before, small for a man -- but not so much as a woman. Understanding that she was small while identifying as male helps give insight into her life while she lived as a man.

"Manning was by then living as an openly gay man. Her relationship with her father was apparently good" Why are we misgendering a gay man?

"She gave an anonymous interview to a high-school reporter during a rally in Syracuse in support of gay marriage ..." Women do not get kicked out of their homes and lose their jobs for wanting to marry men.

These are just a few situations where misgendering Bradley can lead to misunderstandings. I understand why people wish to respect Chelsea's recent transition, but we should not treat her transition as if it took place retroactively. I believe that we should refer to Chelsea as Bradley and use the male pronoun following the introduction up until the section "Gender reassignment".

Am I a massive trans-hating bigot, or am I raising a fair point?

24.22.47.95 (talk) 17:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does this because Misplaced Pages's style guide says we should. —me_and 17:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

This is precisely the problem. Per WP:IAR we should do precisely what the IP suggests immediately. jj (talk) 17:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The sourcing rules override any "style guide" wikipedians have invented. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I was going to bring the same idea. Per WP:PG, policies and guidelines should always be applied using reason and common sense. Currently Manning is both legally and biologically male since, to my knowledge, his identity document and other official documents refer to him as a male. The present state of the article is indeed confusing. Brandmeister 17:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The announcement is nothing more than part of the attorney's negotation process for the appeal. This PC-driven move lowers wikipedia's credibility even further (if that's possible). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I find it very difficult to reconcile your use of the phrase "PC-driven" with an assumption of good faith. Morwen (talk) 17:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Your throwing around the term "transphobic" destroys your "good faith" argument. This story is nothing more than a lawyer's negotiation tactic, and you all have swallowed the bait, making wikipedia look even more stupid than it already does. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Women don't get kicked out of their homes for loving men, but trans women get kicked out of their homes for being "gay" (i.e., people not respecting their gender identity and calling them gay for being male-bodied and being sexually interested in "other" men. this is a very common issue amongst the trans populace.) 71.90.172.117 (talk) 18:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

But Manning did identify himself as a gay man at one point of his life: "Amidst the disintegration of his family, pubescent Brad was coming to terms with his own sexuality. He also told his two best friends he was gay. “I was kicked out of my home, and I once lost my job ,” he told her". Source Now some ideologically motivated people are anachronistically trying to rewrite his entire personal history by using the pronoun "she" at all times of his life. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 18:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Gender doesn't change over night. It is not the case that she was a man up until her announcement then suddenly became a woman. Her gender will have always been female, but it is only now that Manning became certain of her gender and that we have found out. 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The article currently reads: "She will serve her time at Fort Leavenworth in Kansas in the United States Disciplinary Barracks." While the article on United States Disciplinary Barracks reads: "The USDB is the U.S. military's only maximum-security facility and houses male service members convicted at court-martial for violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice"¨ By claiming that Manning is a "she", this article is essentially claiming that the USDB were a mixed-sex prison, which it is not... And anachronistically rewriting Manning's personal history so that all references are in the form of "she" or "her" seems kind of Orwellian: "We've always been at war with Eastasia"! This is insane. Political correctness shouldn't trump facts. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 18:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree about the historical rewrites, it makes the article really incoherent. I'm not sure why her declaration that she's a woman now should require changing past events when she wasn't a woman - there doesn't seem to be an issue in articles where people have just changed their names, they just use the identity that they had at the time they did stuff (e.g. Szmuel Gelbfisz was born in Warsaw, Samuel Goldfish was the Chairman of the board of Famous Players-Lasky, and Samuel Goldwyn started Goldwyn pictures) --Jeude54cartes (talk) 18:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

That's really a matter of perspective. I don't know Manning's particular story, but I do know that some trans people, say those born male, feel like "women" for much of their lives. So while we may say "Manning WAS a man when he was arrested", you don't know how Manning himself/herself felt at that point in time. So the revisionism is odd, but it does seem to hew a bit more closely in some cases to the actual inner identity of the person in question. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (]) 18:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yet another instance of 'political correctness' being used as justification to launch an ad hominem attack on editors acting in good faith. If you say 'politeness' or 'common courtesy' instead of 'political correctness', the complaint disappears. 'Political correctness' is simply emotive language, an I-don't-like-it objection dressed up as a real argument. If you've got something useful to say, say it - all you show by objecting to decency is that you are unkind. AlexTiefling (talk) 19:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages had better hope that the general public doesn't learn that this "debate" is going on here; the result would be the total discrediting of Misplaced Pages--facts are being tossed aside for the sake of Manning's emotional needs. Facts: Manning's legal name is Bradley, official paperwork continues to refer to him as male, he will be incarcerated in a male-only prison, and for the next 35 years he will not be seeing a gynecologist. There is simply no question as to his maleness--except in his own head--and there for no basis for invoking MOS:IDENTITY. Manning's emotional needs, important though they are, do not override facts. He should be referred to as Bradley Manning, and as a male, until the appropriate changes are actually made in official legal documentation. At best, "Chelsea Manning" can be regarded as something like a pseudonym. This isn't transphobia; this is common sense. 208.163.239.119 (talk) 21:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

For the "in the press" or "in the media" template... (coverage of the Misplaced Pages article itself)

• http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/08/22/chelsea_manning_wikipedia_perfectly_reflects_new_gender_of_whistleblower.html

--Another Believer _(Talk) 17:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• •  Done. (See banner at top of talk page, below WikiProject banners.) --Another Believer _(Talk) 17:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• The statement "Misplaced Pages Beats Major News Organizations..." is precisely the reason this move was NOT appropriate. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

+1000 to the above. This is exactly the reason we should move it back. As for pronouns, I guess our policy means we should change them to "she",but the title should remain at Bradley until the news catches up. Odd but true.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

What a mess

This sentence is an example of what's in the article now: " Her father told PBS that he created his first website when he was ten years old. He taught herself how to use PowerPoint, won the grand prize three years in a row at the local science fair, and in sixth grade took top prize at a state-wide quiz bowl." Moncrief (talk) 17:34, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

But what could've possibly gone wrong with quickly trying to retroactively mash up the biography of a man into one of a woman by replacing all the pronouns? --Jeude54cartes (talk) 17:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It was in the process of being fixed up. I'm sure a reasonably satisfactory version. It is quite hard to do this while there is a flood of editors reverting it back using spurious arguments and denying the validity of acknowledging trans people's identities on Misplaced Pages in general. I personally would much rather be using my energy on the article page, but I make it a policy not to edit war. Morwen (talk) 17:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I wish it were also your policy not to start riots, but, sigh, thank our lucky stars for partial virtues. :) --Mareklug 18:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

This is no longer a Good Article, please degrade the rankings

In what reality is a BLP subject to wheel-war moves and overnight redacting of personal pronouns, not at all congruent with reality (was Manning a she as a child? As an enlistee in the US Army? As a litigant in military court verdict?) a Good Article. This article is a laughingstock for English Misplaced Pages at the moment, and the world is having a chuckle. This is NOT one of our Good Articles any longer. --Mareklug 17:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the article needs work thanks to the somewhat sudden change. Ericloewe (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Give it time for the dust to settle, otherwise open a Good Article Reassessment. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's gong to take longer for the dust to settle than for a GAR to pass, that said, I'm to lazy to read the GAR page, but I agree that it should be done. CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I closed the reassessment as too premature. Let's either re-open or start another one in about two weeks. --George Ho (talk) 16:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Pronouns

Alright, let's start a discussion to try to achieve some sort of consensus on which pronouns should be used, so we can fix the incongruities that have been mentioned. I propose we move to using female pronouns in the article per MOS:IDENTITY, which clearly states "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions. Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (for example: instead of He gave birth to his first child, write He became a parent for the first time)." – GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Firmly disagree per common sense. jj (talk) 17:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Given the amount of discussion about this issue on this page, I think it's evident that this is not a "common sense" decision. To me, referring to Manning as "she" is common sense; from your comment, your common sense dictates the opposite. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

@JasonJack it is hard to reply to you when you don't appropriatly use the threading system, please use an appropriate number of ':' infront of replies. I would agree that common since and policy here could be at conflit, but policy supports what GorillaWarfare said (in my intirpritation) CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

This isn't the place to vote on which pronouns to use, since they should follow the gender we choose for the title, but you are right that they need to be consistent. Right now we have botched paragraphs such as "The offenses he was convicted of carried a maximum sentence of 90 years. The government asked for a 60-year sentence to act as a deterrent to other soldiers, while her lawyer asked for no more than 25 years. He was sentenced on August 21 to 35 years and given a dishonorable discharge. Her rank was reduced from Private First Class to Private, and he will forfeit all pay and benefits. He was given credit of 1,293 days served, including the 112 days for her treatment at Quantico, and will be eligible for parole after serving one-third of the sentence. He may also be given additional credit for good behavior, and could be released in about eight years. that need to be fixed. ThemFromSpace 17:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I would say that policy would support refering to Manning with female pronouns within article namespace. That said, that policy does not apply to talk pages (I am of the opnion that it should not apply to talk pages)), I personaly disagree with that policy, but as it stands, I would agree that the article needs to use female pronouns. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Considering how quickly the pronouns are being changed in the article, I think this is the place to discuss. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

No, the article needs to be returned to what most valid sources call Manning. If you're concerned about pronouns, substitute "Manning" for the pronouns, and then you're safe. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The title has NOTHING to do with the pronouns. End of story. Prince changed his name to $#@% but that doesn't mean we followed. The title is based on WP:AT, which dictates common usage. If common usage moved to Chelsea, we will move the article. The pronouns are a separate case, and in this case I agree we should use the feminine pronouns, but not in a copy-paste way, but in a careful way. There's no issue with having an article titled "Bradley Manning" that says "She did x"--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

You want to use "Manning" every time there is a pronoun in that article? We'd probably double the total length... – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It wouldn't be great style, but it would make the article less fatuous - for the time being. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 18:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Especially as no valid source is saying "she" yet. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

God invented singular they precisely for such exigencies. --Mareklug 18:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Why not use "it" until gender has been legally established? 65.51.209.126 (talk) 18:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Is English not your first language, or are you just trying to be funny? Moncrief (talk) 18:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I personally disagree with the singular they, as I find it grammatically incorrect. "It" is unquestionably offensive. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The singular they (and its associated plural pronouns) has validity when referring to a non-specific person. (E.g., "The clerk tells each juror to give their response.") Using it to describe a specific person sounds patently ridiculous. Moncrief (talk) 18:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Um, I suggest you (and GorillaWarfare, as well) take a gander at Singular they#Acceptability, as well as the rest of that article, a much more cohesive Misplaced Pages creation then the one we are discussing. :) --Mareklug 18:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm aware of this, but as it says there, it's still an ongoing debate. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Um, I don't have to read a Misplaced Pages policy in order to know that, in English, using "they" as a pronoun for one known, specific human being sounds absurd. "George Washington was the first president, and they served with distinction." Pick your own example of a specific person, one with gender-identity disorder or not. The way the language is structured, it is utterly comical to use "they" when describing one particular human being whose name is known. It's an entirely separate issue using "they" as a non-specific, general singular pronoun. I see both sides of that issue, but it's not what's being discussed here. Moncrief (talk) 18:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah well desperate times require desperate measures...--Tennenrishin (talk) 19:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It was sarcastic, because what has been done to this article is crazy. Perhaps, it should be "he" up until the letter dated 21 Aug from Manning, afterwords it can be Chelsea and "she". 65.51.209.126 (talk) 18:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It is haphazard. Dealing with these issues is delicate, and search/replace does not work. It doesn't help that ppl have been revert warring. The best would be to allow a few admins who are versed in these issues (calling @Bearcat: perhaps?) to carefully go through the article and correct the pronouns. Exceptions can of course be made in certain areas, for sentence flow for example or when framing quotes.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I am not going to become involved in whether Manning is now a man or a woman. But I believe it is wrong, clearly grammatically wrong, to use the pronouns "she" and "her" of Manning, in describing events that took place when Manning was a man or a boy. Sentences like "Her sister .. had been Manning's principal caregiver, waking at night to make her a bottle and get her back to sleep" are absurd — Manning was male at that time. (It would be similarly absurd if the article on Bertrand Russell referred to him as "Earl Russell" when describing events that took place before he inherited his title.) Maproom (talk) 21:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

For the record, how Misplaced Pages reflects the name and gender identity of a transgender person can never just be a question of "following the majority of sources" — precisely because the bulk of the existing sources about Manning were published before she announced her new name, it'll be a long time before the new sources that describe a woman named Chelsea actually outnumber the existing ones that referred to a man named Bradley. (And that's leaving aside the fact that some sources will undoubtedly not respect correct etiquette around transgender issues, and will continue to call her Bradley anyway.)

Rather, the principle that applies when a notable person comes out as transgender is an outgrowth of WP:BLP: as soon as her gender identity and new name are properly verifiable in reliable sources, neutral respect for her own self-identification trumps any other consideration. So normally, a page gets moved to the person's preferred name, and the pronouns switched to reflect the person's professed gender identity, as soon as those things are announced. (Admittedly we held off a few days when it came to actually moving Laura Jane Grace from "Tom Gabel", because we needed better clarification as to whether Grace was going to be her surname or a second middle name which was still going to be followed by "Gabel" as her surname, but the pronoun change happened right away as it should have.) The fact that the existing sources refer to Manning as "Bradley" instead of Chelsea is irrelevant, because they were published before we could properly verify any other name for her, and can't be retroactively changed now to say Chelsea instead — and anyway, the redirect means that anyone who searches for "Bradley Manning" is still going to find this article anyway.

It is also not necessary for a person to have completed SRS — in most places, a person has to undergo a program of psychological counselling, living as the target gender for a few years despite still having the opposite kind of sex parts, before they're allowed to have the surgery at all (and if you were transgender you certainly wouldn't want to be having your surgery in any place that didn't require that anyway.) At any rate, gender is not a question of what kind of sex parts you happen to have between your legs — whether you understand it or not, the phenomenon of a person's internal gender identity failing to match up with their external sexual characteristics is a rare but very real phenomenon for which the only known cure is to change the external body to match the internal identity. And, in fact, given how carefully privacy is maintained around medical issues, we're unlikely to ever be able to properly verify whether most transgender people are actually "pre-op" or "post-op" anyway — so that can't be the determining factor either.

Simply put, once a transgender person comes out and announces their new name, WP:BLP obligates us to respect their expressed wishes. It's no different than if your neighbour asks you to call him Robert instead of Bob: no matter what you personally think you should be allowed to call him, simple politeness demands that you respect his wishes and call him Robert if that's what he asks for. You don't have to like it if you don't want to, but WP:NPOV and WP:BLP are absolutely non-negotiable policies on Misplaced Pages and there is no other alternative that satisfies them. Bearcat (talk) 22:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

"Simple politeness" is irrelevant to how Misplaced Pages determines its policies, otherwise we would remove portraits from Muhammad and stuff like that. Shii (tock) 22:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

@Bearcat,Shii - Politeness is irrelevant. Verifiability is everything. Policies that you feel support your position are always "absolutely non-negotiable". NickCT (talk) 23:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

AYFKM? The manual needs work. I'm willing to accept that a man can become a woman, and that he doesn't need to do anything but want to be a woman for that to happen, but saying retroactively that he was a woman in the past is surely a bridge too far. The whole concept of "changing" sex implies there was one before the other. I'd allow for some slop in this, for cases where past events are adjectival, for example, "she was born in..." but saying something like (hypothetically, not about Manning) "she was the fastest boy on the high school team..." really gets strange. And I just don't like seeing a whole article redone based on events today. What happens with a transsexual (in general) if next week (s)he finds out there will be no way to receive hormones and gives up trying? I imagine that as our society becomes more enlightened about this sort of thing there really will be people who switch gender identity twice a month. (after all, what woman wouldn't want to switch around that time of the month?) Wnt (talk) 01:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

If someone comes out as gay after being in an opposite-sex relationship, we don't write the article to state that they were straight up until a point and then turned gay, because our best understanding is that sexual orientation is determined at a very young age. The inference is that the person was always gay, even if they did not state it publicly (and may not even have accepted it internally.) Our best understanding for gender identity is much the same. Stating "I am a trans woman" carries with it the necessary implication that the individual has always been a woman, not that they decided one day to change their gender identity.--Trystan (talk) 02:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure, plenty of people will play around with gender presentation for casual fun or entertainment purposes (drag queens, Hallowe'en costumes, sex play, etc.) — lots of people in fact already do — but there's a big difference between playing around with it for fun, while remaining otherwise secure in the gender identity that you usually express in your regular daily life, and actually having the rare but very real medical disorder in which your internal sense of your basic gender identity is actually not in sync with the body that you're living in. The latter is not a decision one can undertake lightly, nor is it something you can just casually and freely change "twice a month". It's not something that someone just wakes up one morning and decides to do on a whim — just because she didn't publicly come out about it until yesterday doesn't mean she hasn't been dealing with this her whole life. Bearcat (talk) 04:46, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

We should refer to Manning by the gender that the majority of reliable sources use. WP:RS is one of Misplaced Pages's core policies and should take precedence over any manual of style that editors have created. I have not looked through many sources at this time, so this should not be taken as an endorsement of any specific gender usage. I also recommend rewriting some sentences to avoid using pronouns where possible. --PiMaster3 16:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Fundamentally this is a case of "verifiability, not truth", a principle which still stands though its detractors object to its bluntest expression. The inner mind knows what is true, but what we report is what is verifiably stated in sources. If all the sources from the time of his arrest say "he", then he was a he at that time, no matter what the "truth" may be. The gender identity we should report from a given point in time is not the innermost truth, but the outward expression indicated by his or her actions. And - not to suggest this for the article, nor to claim it is true, but only to make my point - I should say that I don't know that what you think is true is true. For all I know the gender identity disorder was a legal ploy. For all I know the living as a woman may be a way to get better conditions in jail or a better chance at parole. You don't know the truth any more than I do - we can only know what is verifiable.

The comparison to sexuality is not fully relevant, but I should just point out that I don't think we should accept as dogma that sexuality is unalterable. Some people say they have changed. Some people do change, at least in terms of what they do. If the subject of a BLP says he was always gay then he was always gay - that's basic sourcing. And if he says he was heterosexual and then he switched, there's no justification to doubt that - that's also basic sourcing. And if he doesn't say, then we should word our article carefully to avoid speculating beyond what we know. Wnt (talk) 17:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I support the use of female pronouns in the article, as well as the inclusion of an explanation near the top of the page that Manning is a self-identified trans person, to help with possible clarity issues for our readers. Many parts of the article will have to be rewritten to make sure it flow correctly, however. NewAccount4Me (talk) 19:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 August 2013

KathrynBrooks1 (talk) 18:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC) There are many ambiguous pronouns in the article, making it difficult to follow. Also, there is one use of "they" that should be "he." This occurs in the section about secondary school in Wales.

KathrynBrooks1 (talk) 18:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Although I'm in full support of pronouns changing to feminine per her request, there's several places where 'he' has been changed to 'she' but the 'he' wasn't referring to the subject of the article, but rather someone else (e.g. Adrian Lamo). —Tony Webster (talk / contribs) 18:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• I support this full-protection. Despite attempts to discuss pronouns/names/etc. here, the article is seeing no end of conflict on the issue. I'd protect it myself, but it would be improper considering my involvement in the issue to date. Oops, I misread this request. Anyway, I'm currently going through and fixing any inconsistencies I find. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• I support this request. It's as if someone has used the "Find-Replace" tool in places. - AJF (talk) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Can you be more specific where the error is, so that whichever admin is dealing with the request don't have to go through the whole article finding where you mean? -- KTC (talk) 18:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Passim. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 18:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Any changes should be in accordance with MOS:IDENTITY. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done I have changed all inconsistencies I could find. If I've missed anything, please let me know. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• A new edit request. There is a point where it says " if she wanted to harm himself, she could do so with her underwear or her flip-flops". It should be herself. Rgrasmus (talk) 20:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

but there's still a "himself" in a quote. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion - it isn't a quote in the article, I was just using quotes in my comment to refer to what was written in the article. So it still needs to be changed. Rgrasmus (talk) 21:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2)Added a new {{edit protected}} for this. —me_and 21:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 3) Yeah, it looks like it may have accidentally removed when someone undid an edit. Fixed now. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I made the edit that was requested but it must have been removed somehow (like how my comment above got mangled). What bothered me was 'it was felt she was "a risk to himself..."' It's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Move to Pte Manning

What about for the time being moving the page to the gender neutral Pte Manning, till the name issue has been resolved. To demand a legal name change is asinine as many transgenders change their name years before the courts will allow a legal name change, and this is never made an issue, so to make that a key argument now is just plain mean. 69.244.220.253 (talk) 18:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Pte? What is Pte? Moncrief (talk) 18:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

There is an ongoing move discussion above; I suggest you put your suggestion there, rather than starting a new discussion here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:34, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Pte is the british Army abbreviation for Private (rank). The equivalent U.S. Army abbreviation is PVT. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Except Manning is, or was, a PFC (private first class). Pfe? That's a new one on me. Moncrief (talk) 19:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

He was, but the court-martial reduced his rank to E-1, or private. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

He was an American soldier, so "Pte" is no appropriate. Just spell out "Private". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It would be Private Manning or Pvt Manning but he will no longer be a Private when he is released and his dishonorable discharge goes into effect; this would not seem to be an appropriate move. While he is in prison, he is technically a Private but he is not afforded any military benefits. The E1 rank is only left to keep him under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ and the military --Sam Bingner 09:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS-TW template

Just for transparency, I reverted an attept to add an Ominous Warning to the head of this talk page . Many editors here are honestly discussing what the appropriate course is, and that includes consideration of whether certain style policies are correct. A banner suggesting that the policy cannot be debated, and that participants representing one side of the debate should be reported to a wikiproject (for some reason) is not helpful. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The talk page of any individual article is not the correct venue to discuss any potential changes to a general policy or guideline. -- KTC (talk) 18:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. That warning was bitey and inappropriate. ThemFromSpace 19:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

@KTC:, were you agreeing or disagreeing with 168.12.253.66? --Redrose64 (talk) 20:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

@Redrose64:, neither. I was solely pointing out that this talk page is not the location for debating policy/guideline. The only opinion I have express on this page (so far) is up above in the RM. -- KTC (talk) 20:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Agreed; which is why I added {{MOS-TW}}. Despite not being worded as an "ominous warning" - it states agreed procedures - this action was apparently bitey. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea to place that disclaimer. Per WP:PG policies and guidelines should always be applied using common sense. Also, consensus may change and it would be better to let editors exercise their own judgement. Brandmeister 09:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly we should use common sense. Manning has stated unequivocally that she considers herself to be a woman and has stated unambiguously that she wants to be called Chelsea and referred with female pronouns. This is the very definition of a trans woman - having a gender identity as a woman although assigned as male at birth. the MOS-TW template is specifically for articles dealing with these issues. Manning meets the definition of a trans woman, Manning identifies as a woman. Misplaced Pages has already developed protocols for these issues and we should follow them. The template is not bitey it informs as to these protocols and provides information if there is further issues. Bitey is removing a helpful template. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Accusations of "Transphobia"

This has descended into sniping. Please remember to be civil. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have a real problem with all of the accusations of "Transphobia" being flung around on this page. There are a set of people that belevie Manning should be refered to with female pronouns (saying that that is what she wants to be referd to as and we should listen to her wishes) and a number of people saying that Manning should be refered to with male pronouns (saying many things, but chief among them is that he is currently genetically and physically male). Some people are accusing others of "transphobia", I don't think this is fair, nor does it help the debate. I am sure that some people are "transphobic", but I suspect that they are in the minority, and calling anyone that is just going to make them more defensive. "Transphobia" is this page's Godwins law. CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

An outright refusal to call a transgender person by their preferred name and pronouns, after becoming aware of such, is transphobia. There isn't a way around that - it's part of the definition. Even if someone has a very good reason for continuing to call Chelsea "Bradley" and use male pronouns in the Misplaced Pages article (which I don't believe there are), they should continue to call her by her chosen name and correct pronouns when discussing her. That is not something I see happening from the supporters, in this page, of reverting the page back to naming her Bradley Manning and male. 86.153.186.25 (talk) 19:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

When Snoop Dogg decided he was Snoop Lion, was our unwillingness to rename the article an example of "rapper-phobia" or "reincarnated-bob-marley-entertainer-phobia"? The choice of pronouns is one thing, but hewing to the wikipedia guidelines around the common name of the article is nowhere near transphobia, and you weaken the term by throwing it around in such a fashion.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I was not talking about the article in my statement above - please re-read it. Please then go and tell me how many people who support renaming the page back to Bradley Manning, and/or changing the article back to referring to Chelsea as Bradley, and/or changing the article back to using male pronouns for Chelsea, are using her explicitly chosen name and female pronouns when discussing her on this talk page. Whether there is a Misplaced Pages policy which prevents us from referring to her by her chosen name and pronouns in the article and title or not, the discussion on this page is transphobic. 86.153.186.25 (talk) 19:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Whatever. People arguing that the article should be titled Bradley are not being transphobic, they are just following current policy. We can also IAR and title the article Chelsea, so it's just a matter for debate. Transphobia is much more serious, and while I agree there has been some ignorance shown above, painting everyone who wants to move the article back as transphobic trivializes real transphobia.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I have not done as such. In fact, I have made only one statement to do with the argument that the article should be changed back, which is in brackets, which is that I disagree that there's any reason to. I have merely stated that the refusal to call her by her chosen name, and her correct pronouns, while discussing her, is transphobic, independently of what the correct thing to do with the article is. For example, I have not seen a statement like Support - While Chelsea is her new name, and I respect her new name and gender, this article should be changed to reflect her current legal name as per <insert policy here>. Instead, I see a lot of people referring to her as "him" while discussing her, which is by definition incorrect, independently of what they believe the article should say. Am I not being clear? 86.153.186.25 (talk) 20:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

getting better. But now you're just being pedantic. And you have still stated that people using the wrong name or pronoun is "transphobic". This I disagree with. It may be insensitive, or ill-informed, but "transphobic"? I'd say stop worrying so much about the fact that 6 hours after Manning's announcement, people are a bit confused with pronouns and names, and discuss the content, not the contributors.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Transphobia is far more than beatings and name-callings, it also involves a host of questionable assumptions about gender identity, which ultimately point to essential structural issues. The most important one in this case is the idea that transfolk aren't "real" men or women; the constant discussion about Manning's genitals and pronouns demonstrates this strain of transphobia. Refusing to respect Chelsea's gender pronouns is transphobic, because it rejects the legitimacy of her gender identity. What is the proposal to change the article, but a proposal that Misplaced Pages shouldn't recognize Chelsea Manning as a woman?theBOBbobato (talk) 14:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The logical fallacy here is that you've assumed everyone in the "support" category has used "Bradley" or "He" in their comments. You're also attributing the intentions of use of the name Bradley to some sort of maliciousness rather than habit, hurry, or mistype. The real question is how many people are intentionally disrespecting the subject's wishes? That question cannot be answered because you cannot be in their heads. Which, by the way, is why we have a WP:NPA policy. You can't prove your attacks are right or justified; so don't make them.--v/r - TP 20:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

"Manning should be refered to with male pronouns he is currently genetically and physically male"
I don't mean to be brutal, but I'm afraid such people are only displaying their ignorance, and anyone arguing support above based on such a viewpoint should be ignored. I wouldn't necessarily call them transphobic—they likely just don't know any better—but I would recommend they do a little reading, even just of the relevant Misplaced Pages articles, to cure themselves. LudicrousTripe (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You are welcome to have that opinion, but WP:NPA requires you keep your name-calling to yourself and WP:CONSENSUS requires that good faith opinions be considered in determining consensus. Anyone arguing from an "anyone ..." viewpoint should be ignored in my opinion. You may want to reconsider your time on this website if you give so little respect for any viewpoint that doesn't match your own. We generally frown upon that behavior whether we agree or not.--v/r - TP 19:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

LudicrousTripe, this is exactly what I am talking about, you have in effect just said to me you are only "only displaying their ignorance". You have made me deffensive by saying that. I can think of many good reasons to continue to use the male pronouns, but this is not the place for that. Just because someone disagrees with your world view is not a reason to call them ignorant. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

"Anyone arguing from an 'anyone ...' viewpoint should be ignored in my opinion."
Would you like to dwell upon that sentence?

"you have in effect just said to me you are only 'only displaying their ignorance'"
That's my view, you don't have to like it or me. I didn't say such people were to be assumed as transphobic, but it is my opinion that their viewpoint stems from ignorance. Well, you can have the last word; continuing a discussion that arises from what I believe is hypersensitivity is not to my liking. LudicrousTripe (talk) 21:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Dwell, yes, I wouuld. It appears irony is lost on you.--v/r - TP 01:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so. You were advocating that people ignore you. Adieu! LudicrousTripe (talk) 07:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Rolls eyes* Whatever, not worth my time. You're on the road to an indef block anyway, trying to be nice to you isn't worth it.--v/r - TP 12:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Hey guys, the people that live in Latin-America resent not being called "American" by the people of the United States! Oh wait, wrong example. Hitmonchan (talk) 15:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Biographies of trans people

Has anyone ever read biographies of people who are man/woman ---> woman/man trans? I assume they are titled with the name the person chooses after their identity switch is "cemented", so to speak, but how do such books approach naming, pronouning etc. within the text? Consistent usage throughout, or do they switch after the person starts identifying as the other gender? Do people think it is worth taking into consideration the approach of biographies of trans people? LudicrousTripe (talk) 19:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I've not read biographies, but the general press guidelines (Associated Press, for example) say to use the person's chosen pronouns even before they publicly transitioned. Based on personal experience, that's what trans* folk want, too. I could dig up a whole bunch of websites about trans* people (some self-authored, some with permission of the person in question) that also follow this convention, although I don't have printed biographies I can point to. —me_and 19:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Where by "even before they publicly transitioned", I mean when writing about times before they transitioned. I don't expect people to be precognitant! —me_and 19:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, cheers. That would have been my guess, and has guided my vote to oppose. I'm sure that like at least some others here, I've never really looked seriously at sex-and-gender stuff, have never had trans friends or acquaintances, and so largely have treating people as individuals, being open-minded, conforming to someone's wishes, and just not being an asshole to rely on. LudicrousTripe (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• It would be great to look over some biographies that use the current (latest) pronoun throughout. I'm curious how that situation is handled in other situations. It might shed some light on how to approach the pronouns for this article (for example, how to talk about past situations in which Chelsea would have been assumed to have been male). CaseyPenk (talk) 20:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

In practice, I think it is complicated. Some biographers choose to be consistent, others don't. Kate Bornstein (2012). A Queer and Pleasant Danger: A Memoir. Boston: Beacon Press. ISBN 9780807001653, is an autobiography that is playful with the gender of its nouns and pronouns, and often intentionally juxtaposes them within a sentence, but that is very much Bornstein's approach to things. Similarly Helen Boyd, She's Not the Man I Married: My Life with a Transgender Husband (Seal Press, 2007) intentionally juxtaposes genders within sentences for literary purposes. Christine Jorgensen (1967), Christine Jorgensen: A Personal Biography, includes at least some referring to herself as a child as a "boy" according to the WP page quote of it. News agencies seem to aim to be more consistent in their editorial tone (rather than playful or thought-provoking, both of which are fair game for biographies). Also in the past, trans-folk had to be more careful about how they talked about their own past in order to continue to be eligible for the medical treatments they wanted. The last decade or two have seen more recognition that many different kinds of narratives about one's transness or past, might still warrant HRT or surgeries. Personally I know trans folk that always refer to their past selves using their current nouns/pronouns, trans-folk that refer to past selves with Gender-Assigned-At-Birth pronouns and switch at the time of transition, and trans-folk that use multiple sets of nouns/pronouns for their past selves. There is a lot of variation. Similarly, there can be differences between when one begins transitioning, and when one transitions "publicly." Lana Wachowski, for instance, transitioned and even completed her transition, years before she presented her transition to the press or public. Even with HRT, the transition process usually takes several years, without HRT ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.157.156.137 (talk) 20:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

OK! Well, that puts paid to my hopes for a cut-and-dried affair, 98.157.156.137! I think I'll leave the decision regarding pronouning this article to others... Still, at least Chelsea wasn't man ---> 'neither', like some people I've read about! Whatever does one do then... ;D LudicrousTripe (talk) 21:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I just want to thank the IP for providing one of the few calm, evidence-based and thoughtful posts in the midst of all the above discussion. I hope it gets considered. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• I also thank the poster for the thoughtful share. I would note that a number of reasonable arguments have been put forward by both sides, even though it seems to get drowned out by the confrontational noise. CaseyPenk (talk) 14:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

This explains how the issue off Misplaced Pages is handled and why there is differences found. On Misplaced Pages however, a living persons biography, and mentions of them in other articles, adheres to the person's latest representation of themselves. This is cut and dry as Manning has stated unequivocally she considers herself female and want to have she/her used as pronouns and is also seeking to change her physical body to match her gender identity. If Manning had died we would have a different set of considerations and the most common name would come into play. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Timing

Are there any secondary sources that explain why Manning waited until the day after sentencing to declare her desire to become a woman? Does it have to do with transfer to prison? Abductive (reasoning) 19:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

"She didn't want this to be something that overshadowed the case." googly-oogles. ViniTheHat (talk) 19:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It's got to do with the lawyer trying to negotiate the sentence. Presumably, he's going to argue that Manning shouldn't go to prison, because the crimes were caused by "gender identity" problems. Especially not Leavenworth, which is male-only. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Bugs, that's unverifiable speculation, and arguably an attack on the integrity of Manning's lawyer. Kindly refrain from both crystal ball antics and personal attacks. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Slate blog post about pronouns here

This is fairly recent coverage of the issue as it pertains to this Misplaced Pages article.

Edit request on 22 August 2013: Change Gender Identity Disorder to Gender dysphoria

Change "gender identity disorder" to "gender dysphoria". The latter is becoming ever-more common these days, and is the preferred term in the DSM-5. Also, the former suggests Manning is disordered, somehow. AJF (talk) 19:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

seconded ViniTheHat (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. If she has gender identity disorder, she has gender identity disorder. That is, after all, the name of the article. — Richard BB 20:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

oppose rename the article first. Many news sources describe her as having gender identity disorder. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I moved the article. Abductive (reasoning) 20:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I object to the use of the term "gender identity disorder" in the opening section. The term is controversial (many consider it bigoted) and is no longer used even by the APA. (It was replaced by "gender dysphoria".)

Moreso, Manning has never used the term to describe herself, and it is wrong to force such a stigmatizing term on her.

"Manning has had gender identity disorder since childhood" should be changed to "Manning has experienced gender dysphoria since childhood" or "Manning has expressed that she has felt female since childhood". --71.116.34.80 (talk) 20:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a really good point I wonder about too. I would change now but thought we could discuss further. Any objections? Moncrief (talk) 20:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Dozens of newspaper articles and defense testimony used the term gender identity disorder. We go by reliable sources. There are only a few exceptions - notably, which pronoun a person wants to use. But they don't get to choose which name, and they don't get to choose how their disorders are described by professionals esp when those are part of the documented court case. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment: Following an informal search engine test, at the time of this post Google returns 238,000 results for "manning 'gender identity disorder'" and 97,400 results for "manning 'gender dysphoria'". Bing, meanwhile, returns 90,100 results for "manning 'gender identity disorder'" and 6,170 results for "manning 'gender dysphoria'". CaseyPenk (talk) 20:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The article Gender identity disorder says that another name for the condition is gender dysphoria. There is also a Gender identity disorder in children. Given that Manning had gender dysphoria since childhood, would it not be appropriate to link to that article at least for that sentence (at the end of the lead)? Also, how about changing or piping all other instances to "gender dysphoria" since I'm pretty sure "disorder" is NPOV? The relevant section is WP:MEDMOS, which requires that WP:COMMONNAME is overridden for the titles of articles on medical conditions but which does not require every article on Misplaced Pages to conform to that standard. Abductive (reasoning) 19:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

If the medical community commonly calls it a disorder, it would be a violation of NPOV to censor their opinion. Whether they're right is another question entirely, but Misplaced Pages describes what is, not what should be. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

That's wrongheaded. The medical community is by no means unanimous on this or any topic. Also, there is no censorship; the title of the article Gender identity disorder is not in question here. Abductive (reasoning) 20:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Calling it "disorder" is a neutral point of view. If she has gender identity disorder, she has gender identity disorder. That is, after all, the name of the article. — Richard BB 20:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Not anymore. Abductive (reasoning) 20:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I moved the page back. Controversial name changes should be discussed and achieve consensus on the talk page first. Per Misplaced Pages:Requested moves, under the section "Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves," "Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested." CaseyPenk (talk) 20:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Whoops, I forgot to move the article and only did the talk page. Sorry about the confusion. CaseyPenk (talk) 20:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The present name conforms to WP:MEDMOS consensus. See http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Gender%20Dysphoria%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf. Go ahead and request the move back yourself. Abductive (reasoning) 20:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

(e/c) There's another specific reason to use the old terminology - one of our heavily used sources has a conversation including the term. Again, for the reader's benefit, we should try to avoid using both terms in the article and try to be consistent with the sources used in the article. Medical terminology is confusing enough. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 20:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The term "gender identity disorder" is no longer used by medical groups including the American Psychiatric Association (APA), the largest psychiatric organization in the world. In May 2013, the APA officially started using "gender dysphoria" instead.

— Chelsea Manning's case puts focus on transgender rights in prisons, Amanda Holpuch, theguardian.com, 22 August 2013

2001:5C0:1000:A:0:0:0:49D (talk) 01:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Misplaced Pages uses the term gender identity disorder. Please keep a neutral point of view. Avoiding insult by changing facts, or names is not a productive change. Disorder does not imply a negative condition, in addition. It is possible to view gender identity disorder as something good, which I am sure Bradley Manning does, as he is not ashamed of it. Sovetus (talk) 11:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

•  Not done: Sorry, but I don't see any consensus to make the requested edit at this time. As some of the other commenters have suggested, the proper way to decide this is by a requested move discussion at Talk:Gender identity disorder. I suggest that editors try that first and then make another request here if the article name ends up being changed. — Mr. Stradivarius 14:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Chelsea E. Manning

What does the E stand for? Presumably not Edward any more?

A good point, and why is the E even there? Has Manning expressed a desire to keep using her middle name? If so, link/source? Without that expressed interest, who are we to include it? Moncrief (talk) 21:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It sounds as though Chelsea signed the letter, "Chelsea E. Manning." CaseyPenk (talk) 21:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is a photo of the letter. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Edwardine. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

That sort of comment is not called for.Jbower47 (talk) 22:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I think I saw it in the Guardian. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I really don't think so. And I don't think you saw it anywhere else. LudicrousTripe (talk) 22:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Bugs, perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of the Talk page. I would recommend you reread wiki policy. This is not a forum or a place for inappropriate "humor".Jbower47 (talk) 22:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Elizabeth. News for "Chelsea Elizabeth Manning" Appropriate humor is okay: e.g. Jesus wept. —Pawyilee (talk) 04:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Sneering, transphobic sarcasm is not my idea of humour, but each to their own. LudicrousTripe (talk) 07:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Politicized trash is not my idea of an encyclopedia. Deal with it. Clinton (talk)

What leaked material was actually classified

I would like to see this article be more clear about how much of the leaked material was actually classified. The section heading "Release of classified information" suggests that everything Manning leaked is classified. But I've seen op-eds saying that "most" of the material leaked by Manning was actually not classified—example: The Nation.

The classification information I've been able to glean from Misplaced Pages and cursory web searches is confusing and contradictory. List of charges against Bradley Manning says that a particular PowerPoint presentation and 51 US State Department cables, including the "Reykjavik 13" cable, were classified, implying that the rest perhaps was not. Meanwhile, the United States v. Manning article, in its summary of the List of charges article, only says that the Iraq war logs were classified. A number of media reports refer to the 2007 July 12 Baghdad video as classified, but United States v. Manning refers to the defense's January 2012 request to depose witnesses about the classification of material, including one who was expected to say that 3 Apache gunship videos were not classified at the time they were leaked—implying that there has been some retroactive classification of at least some of the material. I also get the impression that documents placed on SIPRnet, including all of the SIGACTs ("war logs") inherit some kind of classification, but it's not clear how that really works.

I feel it's important to resolve this. What was classified at the time of the leaks? What was retroactively classified? If we can't answer these questions, we should at least to state that there's uncertainty. And we should provide citations for any assertion that a particular set of material was classified. Can someone point to good sources for this information? —mjb (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Better reference for war logs leak

The 2nd paragraph of the lead section says Manning leaked, among other things, the Afghan War logs and Iraq War logs. I think Manning being the source of the war logs leak was long assumed, but it wasn't confirmed until Manning's admission on page 16 of his 29 January 2013 statement to the court.

The only citation currently given for the entire set of leaked materials is "Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. For Manning's referring to the documents, see Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010." Well, those sources don't seem to support the portion of the claim pertaining to the war logs. The latter reference is a Wired article that makes no mention of the war logs; it only discusses the Baghdad video, the Granai video, the 2008 Army report blasting Wikileaks, and the diplomatic cables. Leigh & Harding's book likewise, as far as I can tell from skimming the relevant chapter, doesn't explicitly tie Manning to the war logs, either.

So, I feel we should modify the placement and content of the existing reference so that it doesn't apply to the war logs, and then use Manning's own statement as the reference for the war logs—i.e., change this:

The material included videos of the ] and the 2009 ] in Afghanistan; 250,000 ]; and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the ] and ].<ref name=Leigh2011p194/> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. * For Manning's referring to the documents, see .</ref>

to this:

The material included videos of the ] and the 2009 ] in Afghanistan; 250,000 ];<ref name=Leigh2011p194/><ref>Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010</ref> and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the ] and ].<ref name=ProvidenceStatement>{{cite web|url=https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_zC44SBaZPoQmJUYURBUnBycUk/edit?pli=1 |title=Statement in Support of Providence Inquiry |date=29 January 2013}}</ref> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211.</ref>

Then, in the "Granai airstrike" section, replace the first reference with <ref name=ProvidenceStatement/>.

—mjb (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Slate article

It might be worth reading this article which applauds Misplaced Pages for being so responsive and changing the page name:
Misplaced Pages Beats Major News Organizations, Perfectly Reflects Chelsea Manning’s New Gender Liz 20:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It might be worth realizing that (a) this slate article is already linked at the top of this page, and mentioned in several sections, but (b) more importantly, the slate article is wrong (as it says there is little dispute, whereas, there is a ton of dispute here), and the fact that they applaud us should be embarrassing actually - at least w.r.t. to the name. We should NOT be ahead of news sources, we should be BEHIND them, especially when it comes to what we call someone or something. I think the only exception is the pronouns. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

(a) it's a random Slate blogger, who appears to consider the US the world (b) we're not ahead of the UK media, who have gone pretty much to "Chelsea", "she", "her" as extensively documented above on this very talk page - David Gerard (talk) 20:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Slate is not a politically neutral publication Shii (tock) 21:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 August 2013: Swap army photo for photo of Manning dressed as woman

Since she intends to live as female now, perhaps we should swap

for

File:Chelsea_Manning_with_wig.jpg

Non-free image replaced with link to image. Fair use rationale extends only to one particular section of the article; this being a talk page does not excuse its use here. matt (talk) 21:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

?

Not too sure about this myself, mind. AJF (talk) 20:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

see Kristen Beck - I ended up using two photos. But we should get a better photo first, if possible... does one exist? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

(e/c) This isn't the person's facebook page. The person is the person, dressed up or not, and the military photo is far more informative as to the reason for notability. If Pte Manning ends up as a champion of the LGBT movement and that is the enduring legacy, sure, we should change it. For now, the photo we have is fine. It's much more recognizable anyway. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 20:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I suggest we use both, then. The female picture is more representative of her as a person, but the second picture is more representative of her notability. - AJF (talk) 20:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that would qualify as fair use - as she's still living, it would still be possible to obtain a free image in the future. If we don't want to use the picture of her as a male (which I have no opinion on), then we should just remove it. ItsZippy 20:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

from http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Images

Images of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light. Posting a photo of Manning as a male would be false. ViniTheHat (talk) 20:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it would qualify as fair use. After all, it's been released to inform the public. - AJF (talk) 20:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

 Not done: The first photo is of superior quality and a public domain government work. The copyright status of the latter is unclear. - Cal Engime (talk) 20:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I've requested clarification on the image license from Manning's attorney in VRTS ticket # 2013082210012666 (requires permissions-commons access) and will post back if I have more details. LFaraone 21:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

If you have contact info, why not reach out to Manning's attorney and request a better (and free) photo. The one we have is terrible...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Agreed; I requested a preferred photo in addition to requesting a license for the current one. LFaraone 22:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It has been done on the ticket. As it stands I think the grounds for fair use on that image are shaky at best. NativeForeigner 22:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I think we should be careful not to put too much importance on a photo of Manning "dressed as a woman". At least to my perspective, the differences are all fashion fads that are prevalent in more sex than another, but don't define sex or gender on their own. I mean, women look far prettier without that awful eye makeup; men look much nicer with long (real) hair; ties are a cultural foul-up nobody can explain ... when I filter out all these details, Manning seems just as much male in the wig photo, and of course he's always been somewhat female, especially in the face, in the other photos. So I think we should look more to the significance of the photos to the sources and not look for an ideological reason to feature a low grade B/W photo. Wnt (talk) 17:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Microformat metadata

Since this article uses a custom infobox (won't {{infobox person}} do what's needed, perhaps with a module?), please add the following parameters

(their position is not significant, but near the top would be good), to generate an hCard microformat as used in regular biographical infoboxes. No visual change will occur. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Mark Arsten (talk) 21:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21

25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 August 2013: Categorize him as "transsexual"?

Please add Category:Transgender and transsexual military personnel to the list of categories, per the recent announcement by Manning.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Mark Arsten (talk) 21:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

This was undone somehow. @Mark Arsten: can you do again? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Removed the "editprotected" tag because I don't support addition of it. Please revert the addition of trans-related categories. He is NOT yet a "transsexual" or "transvestite". --George Ho (talk) 16:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Not true George. Manning was diagnosed with gender identity disorder many years ago, and this information was discussed many times during his trial. In the transcripts from 2010 (I think), Manning discussed his desire to transition. As such, with the now public declaration that he is a she, this category is clearly relevant.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

This is just great! You want to categorize him as such because of mere identity and disorder? That would be misinterpretations of the facts and be an original research, forbidden in Misplaced Pages. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

You may want to read Causes of transsexualism. Someone who was born as a man, but feels they are a woman, and then publicly comes out stating that they are a woman and want to transition, is by definition a transsexual (or transgendered) person. I don't think this is original research at all - a simple google search of "Transsexual + manning" provides lots of hits, dozens of articles have discussed the issues of Manning as a transsexual member of the military, and what rules/rights she would have as a result.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Nothing in this article convinces me to change my mind, even when it is well-detailed. There were sexuality rumours of Cary Grant, yet he is not categorized as 'homosexual' by categories. I stand where I stand. --George Ho (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

If cary Grant had come out with a public statement saying he was gay, he would certainly be in those categories. In this case, we have both: 1) Manning with a public statement saying he identifies as a woman and b) Multiple media sources who identify him as transsexual, transgendered and refer to same in the context of his military service. if that is not enough to put him in the categories, I'm not sure what is.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

From what I've heard, the military won't financially endorse his change plans. And I don't think the government will either. And I don't think his insurance will cover that, as well. Probably other foundations? And how much is one hormone therapy? And surgery? --George Ho (talk) 18:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Quite true - it may be a while before Manning can do those things. but perhaps you misunderstand what transsexual means (or at least, the category). It doesn't mean you've had surgery and hormone treatments and so on. You can be transsexual before you actually take any steps towards becoming your desired gender.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

How besides self-declaring? --George Ho (talk) 18:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Wait what? No you cant Transsexual latterly means trans (Moves to) one sex to the other. I think you are confusing it with Transgender like I did earlier. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) Well, there is "transgender and transsexual" in the same category name. --George Ho (talk) 18:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Editing through protection

Would admins please stop editing this article, unless it's in response to an uncontentious edit request? Shii added the NPOV tag, meant to be used only as a last resort after discussion has failed (now removed by Mark), and Moncrief has removed the middle initial, showing he hasn't read the statement. The point of page protection is that editing is supposed to stop, except for minor requests such as fixing typos (and similar uncontentious things). SlimVirgin 21:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The problem is, there are advocates abusing their admin privileges to shape the article to their personal point of view. That's supposed to be against the rules. But the only rule in effect on this page at present is that imposed by the advocacy zealots. They've been chomping at the bit for months, waiting for this to happen. And now they've done it, policies and wikipedia's reputation be damned. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

That's quite an accusation... what edits have been made that suggest that? – GorillaWarfare (talk)

Any edits made by advocates since they froze the page, are illegitimate. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I thought it was to prevent edit wars. Presumably admins are wiser, and able to make tweaks as needed. Those sound to me like tweaks...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Considering that a couple of very long in the tooth admins deliberately eschewed discussion/consensus-building/deliberation, and rapidly force-edited this, causing a riot to boot, I take now a very dim view of the actual wisdom of our admin corps. --Mareklug 21:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I see 10 pronoun changes per this requested edit, the addition of a protection template, two infobox tweaks, the removal of an oddly-placed {{blockquote}} template, two additions of a missing quotation mark, a filename fix, the addition and removal of a NPOV template, the requested edit to add microformat metadata, the requested edit to add the Transgender and transexual military personnel template, the removal and readdition of Manning's middle initial, and the addition of a colon to introduce a quote. Which of these constitutes "abuse their admin privileges to shape the article to their personal point of view"? – GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Until the advocate-admins move it back to the properly sourced title, Bradley, they have no business editing the article at all. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Stop perverting the Manual of Style

I keep seeing reference to the MOS, to wit:

"My move request is also not a suggestion of which pronoun should be used. WP:MOSIDENTITY makes it clear that in this case we should use the "she" pronoun."

This is not the intent of the clause being referenced.198.161.2.241 (talk) 21:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY says "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." That seems to clearly support referring to Manning as "she", considering that she most recently expressed the desire to be referred to as female. Where do you disagree? – GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

There is no valid sourcing for "she". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Manning is a perfectly valid source. Actually, Manning is the only valid source. Get used to it... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

A couple sources already use she. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/22/bradley-manning-woman-chelsea-gender-reassignment, for example. We can certainly wait until there is a greater consensus, but honestly it's probably inevitable.Jbower47 (talk) 21:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I said a valid source. Once CNN starts saying "she", then you've got something. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

And I guess you get to decide what a "valid" source is? Fritzendugan (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The Guardian hates the US, so it's not a valid source. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

This line of argument is unproductive. Shii (tock) 22:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

No, it's actually quite productive, all day today. It's a textbook example of what happens when changes are made without consensus, and when admins abuse their power to enforce their personal point of view. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The idea that the Guardian is not a reliable source because you dislike its political viewpoint is sufficiently far outside any standards of citation on Misplaced Pages as to invalidate your entire argument and perspective here. That's just not how this works. If you think it is, you're so far off the reservation that you're no longer editing under the basic rubric of how Misplaced Pages works. Sorry, but this is so far past helpful as to constitute active abuse of the project and its rules. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

(ec)No, the argument you gave above is indeed unproductive. Firstly, it's wrong. The Guardian is a highly regarded newspaper and generally accepted as a reliable source. Secondly, it's an entirely fallacious argument. Even if the Guardian would hate the US, why should that make a difference for its position on the gender of Manning? Jailing a man is neither better nor worse than jailing a women, or a transgendered person. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The Guardian is no more a reliable source than is the National Inquirer. Maybe less so. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing whatsoever that is true about that statement, at least in terms of Misplaced Pages's policies. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying National Inquirer IS a valid source??? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)