Talk:Empress Jingū - Misplaced Pages

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Grounds for caution

In the Korean Samguk Sagi, there is very little mention of Goguryeo or Baekje. This is because the author, Kim Bu-sik wrote the record as that of the successor state to Silla, a traditional rival of both Goguryeo and Baekje. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that some bias has taken place in the Samguk Sagi with regards to the two other nations, and this is an example of bias in historical documents, and it is not the only bias.

The veracity of the Book of Song is disputed because of its missing sections and the tone with which it is written, as well as its treatment of surrounding nations and ethnic groups. In addition, at the time when the record was written, the Liu Song dynasty was on friendly terms with Baekje only; when it established ties with Yamato Japan, the nations listed (except for Baekje) are diplomatically unknown entities.

Egami notes in 1964 that it may look very strange that the names of six or seven states listed in the self-claimed titles included Chin-han and Ma-han which had preceded, respectively, the states of Silla and Paekche. Perhaps the King of Wa had included the names of six or seven south Korean states in his title merely to boast of the extent of his rule. But Wa Kings could not have included the names of nonexistent states. One may then conclude that the remnants of Chin-han or Ma-han existed as other members of the Kaya Federation by the time Wa Kings sent their embassies to China in the fifth century, because according to the Samguk Sagi, Silla established the first contact with the Southern Chinese Dynasties in A. D. 521 by sending an envoy to the Court of Liang along with the Paekche envoy.

In Nihongi book 1, page 263, in the 16th year of Ojin's reign, King Ahwa (same as King Asin) died. King Ahwa reigned in Baekje from AD 392-405 (i.e. he was in his 14th year when he died), so this means Ojin's reign begins in AD 390 (two years before King Ahwa of Baekje, although because of Nihongi's time system Ojin's reign is listed as starting in AD 270, exactly 120 years, or two 60-year cycles, before it actually began). In that record, Emperor Ojin sends Baekje Prince Työnchi (Cheonji) back to Baekje, saying to effect: "return to your country and continue the royal line." Then Ojin granted the prince the territory of the Eastern Han. This record indicates that Ojin formally renounced all claims to Baekje territory. This record also shows that Yamato Japan and Baekje were very close.

Aston says about Nihongi: "Even so late as the beginning of the 5th century the chronology can be shown to be wrong in several cases by no less an interval than 120 years.... The first date in the Nihongi which is corroborated by external evidence is A.D. 461, but the chronology is a little vague for some time longer. Perhaps if we take A.D. 500 as the time when the correctness of the Nihongi dates begins to be trustworthy, we shall not be very far wrong."

In addition, Tsuda Sokichi wrote that when writing of matters related to Paekche, Silla and Kara, they (referring to the authors of the Japanese histories, in this case Nihongi and Kojiki) applied the writing method of uplifting the current authority in the fashion of Chinese and Confucian ideologies. Tsuda states that those were the authors’ ideologies, and had nothing to do with realities. It is possible that they were written in this way because of the tensions between Silla and Yamato at the time they were written.

All of this shows that historical texts and what they say must be considered carefully and what they say, especially in the print versions (as they were all written by one or a limited number of individuals) cannot all be taken as literal truth.

"Book of Song." Misplaced Pages. http://en.wikipedia.org/Book_of_Song
"Five Kings of Wa." Baekche of Korea and the Origins of Yamato Wa of Japan. http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/hi5-5.pdf p.255
"Five Kings of Wa." Baekche of Korea and the Origins of Yamato Wa of Japan. http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/hi5-5.pdf p.256
Nihongi: Chronicles of Japan from the Earliest Times to A.D. 697, translated from the original Chinese and Japanese. W.G. Aston. http://books.google.com/books?id=1IJrNAKBpycC&dq=aston+nihongi&pg=PP1&ots=MHQwccyV_A&sig=R1mo5I2d7VSgLrkEcrJNxdkEejQ&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Aston+nihongi&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPR16,M1 p.xvii-xviii
"History Texts." ML (Machine-Learning) Shopping. http://www.ml-shopping.com/Yamato_period.html
"History Texts." ML (Machine-Learning) Shopping. http://www.ml-shopping.com/Yamato_period.html

Ecthelion83 (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

POV Pushing

- Chinese History Record ], Vol. 81, ''Liezhuan'' 46 : 隋書東夷伝第81巻列伝46 : 新羅、百濟皆以倭為大國，多珍物，並敬仰之，恆通使往來 "Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a great country, with many rare and precious things; also respect and look up to them, and regularly send embassies there."

that translation was definitely wrong and POV forking. Japanese wikipedia user depict as "Japan was Great than Korea". but, it was a definitely wrong. Check full text,

"安帝时，又遣使朝贡，谓之倭奴国。"

On Emperor An of Han period, They sent envoy to han China, and tribute to Han China, Japan called as "Slave state" .

"无文字，唯刻木结绳。敬佛法，于百济求得佛经，始有文字。"

Japanese learned characters and buddhism from baekje, this is the origin of characters in Japan

"有如意宝珠，其色青，大如鸡卵，夜则有光，云鱼眼精也。新罗、百济皆以倭为大国，多珍物，并敬仰之，恆通使往来。故大业三年，其王多利思北孤遣使朝贡。"

有如意宝珠(Japan have treasure things)，其色青(color is blue)，大如鸡卵(size as egg)，夜则有光(bright at night)，云鱼眼精也。(it called as 鱼眼精) 新罗、百济皆以倭为大国，多珍物，并敬仰之，恆通使往来 (Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a big country of treasure source, with many rare and precious things in Japan; also highly esteemed it(many rare and precious things), and regularly send their person there." 故大业三年，其王多利思北孤遣使朝贡。(On 大业三年 period, Japan's King tributed to China)

敬仰(jìng yǎng) highly esteemed

'Japan land' have some treasure things, so, Silla and Baekje want their treasure things. highly esteemed treasure things. This is not mean, Japan is stronger or great country than Korea. Previous edit was definitely wrong translation.Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 22:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. Cúchullain /c 13:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Empress Jingū → Empress Jingu – Per the most common name. See Google Book search below.

"Empress Jingu" -"Empress Jingū‎" 5540
"Empress Jingū‎" -"Empress Jingu" 83

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

No objection - I know some people love the macrons, but I'm not a big fan. Boneyard90 (talk) 10:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Support, per WP:DIACRITICS: "follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language."

The title should be the most recognizable form of the name, and it should tell the reader how the subject is normally referred to in published English. The subject's bio is marketed to children in macron-free form as Jingu: The Hidden Princess.
As the macron is not part of the Latin-1 character set, it may not render correctly in all contexts. See Amazon, where ō renders as a question mark. Kauffner (talk) 04:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
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In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 02:49, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

It has been proposed in this section that Empress Jingū be renamed and moved to Empress Jingū.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Empress Jingu → Empress Jingū – MOS says we should use the form most commonly used in academic works, but the above careless RM to the current title barely passed 2-0 based on blind Google searches and one of the (now-banned) participants' obvious dislike of diacritics in general. Of the results that supposedly use the non-macron spelling, most of them seem to actually use a macron. Others tried to give the macron spelling because Misplaced Pages did, but failed. One gave a circumflex. Of the first 10 hits, only three used the "Jingu" spelling, and of those one is clearly not an academic work (published by "iUniverse.com"), one is a popular book by Stephen Turnbull that incorrectly refers to her as "Empress Jingu-kogo" and describes her as a "samurai woman", and one clearly doesn't give her any extensive coverage. Misplaced Pages should be based on the best-quality academic sources, not on blind misinterpretations of Google hits. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:06, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

2nd page: 4 clearly use a macron; of the other 6, one is clearly just a misprint as it spells similar names with macrons right beside her name, one spells other words, but not names, with macrons, which implies an internal style preference that is different from ours; one is potentially misquoting an earlier work, Philippi's translation of the Kojiki, which I do not have access to, but which Shirane, a better-regarded source in this area, gives as using macrons; one doesn't have a preview, but we can't trust Google that it doesn't use a macron; two more give her name with no macron and don't seem to have significant issues. Do I need to keep doing this? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

3rd page: eight give a macron, one gives a circumflex and one gives the current Misplaced Pages spelling. Admittedly, a few of these seem to be doubled from the previous two pages, but it seems the deeper we go the worse this gets. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose per 2012 result and characterization of this as a "misprint" is Original Research. If other names use macrons and this does not, then this is more an indication that it doesn't use a macron for some particular reason. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 04:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

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