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Japan: Military history Start‑class Low‑importance

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Military history: Asian / Japanese Start‑class

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Move from Battle of Shigisan

I moved this page just now. The Japanese name of the event is Teibi no Ran or Teibi no Hen. Of the four sources cited in the article, only one (Sophia) seems to use "Battle of Shigisan", but it seems to use the name dismissively as it calls it the "so-called Battle of Shigisan". Sansom calls it "a decisive battle at Shigisen", which is hardly justification for this article's previous name. GBooks brought up almost no hits for the old title, and one of the ones that came up is Sophia. The only apparently scholarly/specialist/encyclopedic source (works on Shinto are not necessarily reliable for Japanese political/military history) that came up is the Japan Encyclopedia, but that book has its problems too, with numerous misprints and odd translations from the French. Additionally, the first sentence of this article rather ridiculously has "the Battle of Shigisan (信貴山)" as though the parenthesized word was the Japanese name for the battle.

(I know it links to Mount Shigi as well -- an oddly erroneous use of the Nihongo template -- but that's even weirder.)

elvenscout742 (talk) 06:43, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

and came up for "Battle at Mount Shigi" and "Battle of Mount Shigi" respectively. But neither is enough to overrule the way people actually translate Teibi no Ran and Teibi no Hen. elvenscout742 (talk) 06:48, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

As a search on Google Books reveals, there are at least a dozen reliable sources that describe this conflict either as the Battle of Shigisan or a variant of that. By contrast, there is no English-language source, not even one solitary account, that uses the term "Teibi Incident". It seems that the only reason why the term "Battle of Shigisan" is not more widely used in English is because this conflict is not often discussed in English at all. However, the dozen or so reliable sources that do mention this conflict all reference Shigisan or Mt Shigi, whereas none of them call it the Teibi Incident. Furthermore, the translation itself is a bit problematic since "no ran" is more commonly translated into English as "war" or "rebellion", as in Onin War, Jokyu War, or Heiji Rebellion. Nonetheless, we should use the term most similar to that established by scholars rather than attempting a purely original translation of the word. I will move this article back to the title "Battle of Shigisan".CurtisNaito (talk) 09:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

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