Talk:Skanderbeg - Misplaced Pages

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Q1: Was Skanderbeg Albanian? A1: Yes, Skanderbeg was an Albanian feudal lord from the Albanian House of Kastrioti. Q2: What language did they speak in Albania during Skanderbeg's lifetime? A2: Skanderbeg's native language was Albanian. In the Balkans Italian, Greek, Vlach, Latin, South Slavic languages and Ottoman Turkish were also common during Skanderbeg's lifetime. Q3: What was the background of Skanderbeg's mother? A3: Primary sources refer to her as being from Polog, most likely being the Polog valley in modern day North Macedonia. It has also been argued that another Polog, closer to the town of Bitola in the plain of Pelagonia may be the location of the Polog mentioned by Barleti. There is debate among different scholars of whether Skanderbeg's mother was related to the Muzaka family, most likely of Albanian descent, or of the Serb Branković dynasty, or of an unknown Bulgarian family. There is, however, no mention of Voisava on the Branković dynasty family tree. Q4: Was Skanderbeg a Roman Catholic? A4: Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was a Roman Catholic in the period from 1444 to his death in 1468. In the period prior to 1444, he had converted to Islam. The exact date of his conversion is unclear but it must have been between 1426 and 1431. His father, Gjon Kastrioti changed his religion several times (Roman Catholic/Christian Orthodox/Muslim). Q5: What was Skanderbeg's real name and who were his parents? A5: His real name was Gjergj Kastrioti, Gjergj is the Albanian version of the name George. His father was Gjon Kastrioti and his mother's name was Voisava Kastrioti

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Occupation of the Principality of Kastrioti ruled by Skanderbeg's brothers

With this edit User:Irvi Hyka edit warred to restore following unreferenced assertions he added with his bold edits:

in 1443 Skanderbeg succeeded his father Gjon Kastrioti as prince of the Principality of Kastrioti.
in 1468 Gjon II succeeded Skanderbeg as prince of the Principality of Kastrioti
Lekë Dukagjini succeeded Skanderbeg as Chief of the League of Lezhë

All above assertions are incorrect.

Gjon died six years earlier, in 1437. Even before he died he was not Prince of Katsrioti, at least not after 1430 when his realm ceased to exist when he was defeated by Isa beg. In 1430 Isa beg allowed Gjon to govern a couple of villages. In 1436 that territory was annexed by the Ottomans and listed in their registers as land of Yuvan-ili.
There was no principality of Kastrioti Gjon could be prince of in 1468. After Skanderbeg's death Venetians continued to govern Kruje until Ottomans captured it.
Leke Dukagjini was never Chief of the League of Lezhë which actually collapsed in 1450 while Skanderbeg was still alive.

User:Irvi Hyka supported the above mentioned incorrect assertions with his explanation in edit line (was occupied before 1943 and other brothers were alive). It is a thesis that Principality of Kastrioti was actually under Ottoman occupation after 1430 and that although Gjon died 6 years before Skanderbeg allegedly succeeded him as prince of Kastrioti in 1443, it was possible because Skanderbegs' brothers were alive in the meantime. I think that thesis about the occupation of the Principality of Kastrioti ruled by Skanderbeg's brothers ïs absurd and can not be used to support above mentioned incorrect assertions.

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:28, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

@Antidiskriminator see the tree of Kastrioti family, after the dearth of Gjon Kastrioti (Skanderbeg's father) his elder sons Reposh Kastrioti - duke then monk, Stanisha Kastrioti - († 1445?; father of Hamza) and Konstandin Kastrioti were alive. Irvi Hyka 18:15, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Skanderbeg did not succeed his father because his father was already dead for more than five years when Skanderbeg deserted Ottomans and captured Kruje. Skanderbeg's son did not succeed his father at all because he was forced to leave to Italy when Skanderbeg died.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:03, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Skanderbeg as a theme in Albanian history textbooks

Denisa Kostovicova nicely summarized Skanderbeg as a theme in Albanian history textbooks in her work: Kosovo: The Politics of Identity and Space Аутор: Dr Denisa Kostovicova(link):

... in Albanian history textboks... Not only were Albanian-inhabitated territories in the medieval Balkans retroactively nationalized, Skanderbeg himself at the time of his military undertaking is cast as a national hero. Hence, the notions of nation and nationhood were imported into the era that preceded their conceptualization.... Importantly, Skanderbeg's state is regarded as the Albanian state, which 'created important tradition of the Albanians' state life, that remained alive in the Albanians' memory and that was propagated in the subsequent centuries'. Again, the textbooks operated retroactively with a notion of nationally defined statehood.

This is important aspect of Skanderbeg which should be added to the text of this article, along with some basic information about the myth which nationalists created using his figure.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Kastrioti adored as national hero by mohammedan albanians, although he fought mohammedan turks?!

'Skanderbeg is Albania's most important national hero': Can someone explain why this is the case? Kastrioti fought against the turks and islam, still (because he ultimately lost) the majority of albanians are mohammedans today, because the turks forced them to convert. Sounds all a bit fuzzy if we apply normal logic, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.120.231.38 (talk) 18:04, 30 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.120.228.89 (talk)

Good point. This really should be clarified. Thanks.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Usually Albanians do not put much importance to religions, they are more sympathetic towards the country and the nation. We can see this is the case from Pashko Vasa's poem O moj Shqypni where he expresses this concept with the following words: "Awake, Albania, it’s time to rise And bind yourselves with brotherly ties; Look not to church or mosque for pietism, The faith of Albanians is Albanianism!". Albania is a country with multiple faith systems but the population are surprisingly secular, might be a benefit from Hoxha's regime. —Epicurus B. 18:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation.

Albanian indifference to religion is a myth.
If Albanians are really indifferent to religion, why would they celebrate Skanderbeg's struggle against mohammedans?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. I wouldn't say it's a myth and I'm not saying that if you are Albanian then somehow automatically you possess secular values, I would however say that indifference towards religion is certainly widespread, in the cities at the very least. They celebrate Skanderbeg's struggle against the Ottomans as a struggle for Albanian unity as a nation, not a struggle for the Christian collection of beliefs. Of course there are some Muslim Albanians who view Skanderbeg as a "villain" and there are some Christian Albanians who view him as a crusader or a holy knight or some such, usually these Albanians tend to be followers of a more extreme form of their religion.—Epicurus B. 14:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Your comment probably can partially resolve this issue. Will you please present some sources which support your assertion about Skanderbeg struggling for "Albanian unity as a nation" and Albanians celebrating him because of that?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The Siege of Kruje

Regarding the below sentences:

"He lost all of his possessions except Krujë. The other nobles from the region of Albania allied with Murad II as he came to save them from the oppression."

There are several incorrect statements: 1. There is no evidence whatsoever that Skanderbeg lost his possessions after the Siege of Kruje. He lost control over part of them during the siege, but naturally after the Murad retreat, the pre-war situation was restored as Skanderbeg didn't lose any castle. You can rely on sources like Babinger, Frasheri, etc. regarding this. Also, this makes sense as immediately the next year he defeated another Ottoman expedition in the frontier (not near Kruje). 2. There is no evidence whatsoever that nobles allied with Murad II. Some of them (Dukagjini) stayed apart, but no one joined sultan or the action against Skanderbeg. However, the nobles' help was minimal this time, even from Gjergj Arianiti. 3. It is for sure that Murad II wasn't coming to save nobles from Skanderbeg's oppression. Most of them had already lost their territories when Skanderbeg began the revolt and regained them through him. They knew that Murad's intentions was the total subjugation of Albania. Even the treacheries of the next years, were mainly from his own relatives (despaired after his son's birth for lack of succession), not from the nobles. The most they did to protest, was being neutral or connecting with Venice and Alfonso. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MARSELIMADHE (talk • contribs) 08:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The assertions you dispute are supported by work of Kenneth Setton for which he received the Haskins Medal of the Medieval Academy of America.

"He had lost all of his country except Kroia"
"The independent Albanian highlanders ... had made accords with Murad". Even Frasheri confirms this (Frashëri, Kristo (1964), The history of Albania: a brief survey, Shqipëria: Tirana, p. 78, OCLC 230172517, retrieved 23 January 2012, In 1450 two powerful aristocratic families, Arianits and Dukagjins, left the league.... Skanderbeg tried to keep them near him. But his efforts failed. The Dukagjins not only did not accede, but on the contrary, concluded peace with Sultan and began to plot against Skanderbeg. {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |month= (help))
" as though he was their deliverer from the oppression. "--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Btw just because the main editors of the article are vacationing don't expect to add POV issues that neither belong to the lead nor are mentioned by other sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — 11:05, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Albanian resistance

The major portion of this article is under "Albanian resistance" section. It frequently mentions "Albanian armies", "Albanian insurrection", "Albanian garrison", "Albanian troops", "Albanian territories", "Albanian noblemen", "Albanian forces", ... which all could mislead readers to believe that this was a struggle between Albanians (used as demonym or ethnicity) and Ottoman Empire. In prevent misleading of readers I added important clarification which is referenced by contemporary historian who is member of the Austrian Academy of Sciences and author of the best biography on Skanderbeg. Since this addition was removed without valid reason I will restore it to the article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:28, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

We've been through this before. See talk page history on that here an eg.. The same terms are used by Keneth Setton who was "one of the foremost interpreters of medieval Europe and the Crusades, the papacy and the dawn of the Renaissance," for eg albanian resistance, albanian army albanian attack etc. Your add is on WP:COATRACK territory. If you want to speak about the population in medieval Albania go ahead and make an article on that. That does not belong here.

P.S. Not so related but after the death of Scanderbeg many people left the country migrating to Italy. Guess what language do they speak Aigest (talk) 08:40, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

After 1463....

the lede present information about post-1463 events.

"Left alone to fight the Ottomans, Skanderbeg did so until he died in January 1468"

This is incorrect. Skanderbeg was far from left alone. In period 1463—1468 he was only one of participants of the Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–79). I will correct the above sentence to match the text of the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:24, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

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