Talk:United States invasion of Panama

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Explanation for invasion

'tension' is not an acceptable explanation for the military invasion of another country.

-199.245.163.1

America invaded Panama to secure access to the canal until handover in 1999. Noreiga was by 1989 a very unstable leader and despite American/CIA backing for years they removed him and put in place politicians would do America's bidding in relation to the canal.

Holden 27

It seems this information is indeed not very well covered on this article. Could you do us all a favour and, after researching the subject, adding the required background here? JFW | T@lk 00:49, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, it needs to be explained. Basically, the invasion was decided after the government of Noriega declared a state of war with the United States. When such thing happen, would you rather wait to be attacked or take the initiative? The U.S. opted to take the initiative. Why did Noriega declared a state of war in the first place is a different question. =) —Joseph | Talk 02:22, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

Here is the background information: —Joseph | Talk 02:35, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

Well that is certainly one point of view, but there are others (e.g. the various Chomsky references, and others in the article) What you are saying is the reason the United States claimed the invasion was carried out. Whether that was the proximate cause is clearly a matter of opinion since there are competing reasons. So please, if you make a change, you must cleary state that the reason you stated is the reason the US military alleged. Anything else is POV.CSTAR 03:41, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

- Uh, sorry to burst your bubble, but Noam Chomsky is a leftist crackpot known for making wild allegations against every major American military action of the post Vietnam era. His "opinion" (always unsupported by any type of hard evidence other than his own bloviating) is only that, and cannot be used to form the basis of any NPOV article.**

In the above comment, I did not say Chomsky's comments should be the basis of the article; I said there were many opinions about the reasons for the invasion. Moreover, if you compare with opinions of many Latin Americans, his opinions are moderate. Again that doesn't make the opinion right or wrong. You are right that his opinion alone should not determine what is said in the article and it hardly does. Thanks for commenting!--CSTAR 15:24, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

As a matter of fact there were at least 4 reasons given by G. W, H. Bush to invade Panama. (New York Times, Dec 21, 1989 A Transcript of Bush's Address on the Decision to Use Force in Panama) I will give explicit references to other New York Times articles for relevant information. Also a little more on the international background to the invasion is needed who supported it, who opposed it etc. But keep in mind that this article cannot be written from the perspective of the GWH Bush administration. CSTAR 04:15, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

RE: Keep in mind that this article cannot be written from the perspective of the GWH Bush administration.

Yes it can, it it has.

===Need Some Info=== I'm not entirely savvy on the details of Op Just Cause, but I heard a rumor the other day that I can't totally corroborate, hopefully you all can help. I know we dropped A LOT of troops on Panama that evening, but someone told me that one particular chaulk of paratroopers got stuck in a mud flat (read: sitting ducks). I know this may have happened at LZ OCELOT, but the rumor mentioned something about bad intelligence about canal levels, and the ANG and Army intelligence units not talking to one another. Does anyone have some usable info on the matter? Teejay769 15:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)TeeJay769

Noriega's side

The recently added material on Noriega's side of the story, is accurate and NPOV (in my opinion). Would you consider separating it out into a separate paragraph, so that strutcurally it would be clear what were Bush's justifications and what were the percieved reasons by other parties in Panama and around the world? I'll give it a shot if you like and you can revert if it's no good.CSTAR 02:11, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Spanish reporter

A Spanish reporter was killed by US troops. Is it worthy of mention?

Since lots of non-combatants were killed in the invasion, (My best estimate is around 1000) you would need to explain why this is worth mentioning. CSTAR 17:01, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

From Panamanian point of view (opinion)

There is a report on Operation Just Cause covered i believe by CNN news during that time period. It is about an hour long and shows what truly happened in Panama from Panamanian reporters and why so many innocent lives were taken at the risk of capturing Noriega. In my personal opinion, i think there is more to the invasion than George Bush Sr., led the American media to believe. The Panamanian Defense Force itself turned their back on Noriega before the invasion and agreed to hand him over to the U.S. The U.S. refused to take him and instead invaded Panama later. i think they used Noriega as an excuse to invade Panamanian territory and gain possesion and military control of the canal thus ridding Panama of their own military forces. Their "Argument" was that the Panamanian military could not confidently control the canal and secure its safety.

If you can document and state this in a way in which it is clear who is making the claim, then by all means include it.--CSTAR 13:36, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is something very insatisfactory about this article, which is not factual innacuracy, but rather the absence of any credible point of view on the Panamanian side, particularly in the first section after the TOC.--CSTAR 02:44, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Am I misunderstanding? I was under the impression that Nifty Package was a success and we got Noriega that night. As I understand, he's still in prison in Miami, scheduled to be released in 2007. Is this false? And I think from the research I have done this morning that it wasn't the PDF that engaged US forces at the airport, but Third-Country Body guards. Teejay769 16:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)Teejay769

Nifty Package? WTF?

I read the following and thought, this just can't be right: "Just Cause was planned under the name Blue Spoon, and the invasion itself incorporated elements of the Operation Nifty Package and Operation Acid Gambit plans." I've heard it was called blue spoon before, but "nifty package"? "Acid gambit"?? I googled for these terms and all links to nifty package send me back to a wikipedia site. Acid gambit, however, is real, according to this and other such pages. So what's the deal with "nifty package" - can anyone confirm this? Also shouldn't there be a section on the press and the invasion? It seems to me the panama invasion was a turning point (to a lesser extent than grenada) in press restrictions during wartime.--csloat 8 July 2005 22:57 (UTC)

Confirmed From a Journal of Counterterrorism (2000) article: "The plan, designated Operation Acid Gambit, was simple, at least in theory. Aviation support would be provided by MH-6 "Little Birds" from the 160th Special Operations Aviation Group. This agile, unarmed helicopter, a relative of the OH-6 observation helicopter used in Vietnam, was specially outfitted with outboard "benches" designed to ferry up to three commandos on each side. Painted black to facilitate nighttime operations, the small aircraft could conduct rapid insertions and extractions of special operations forces into areas its larger brother, the MH-60 Black Hawk, could not. This same assault package combined with MH-60s's from the 160th, would also be tasked with the apprehension of Manual Noriega himself, in an operation code named 'Nifty Package'." lots of issues | leave me a message 07:27, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is a sad story that took place at the old Puenta Patea Airport (now a shopping mall):

NIFTY PACKAGE (U.S. 89) A special operation conducted in the opening hours of the American invasion of Panama (JUST CAUSE) to capture, kill or prevent the escape of the Panamanian strongman Manuel Noriega. Based on the GABEL ADDER plan, this operation included a team of elite Navy Seals who destroyed the dictator’s private jet on the ground, but suffered four dead.

A SEAL got the jet with an AT-4 (or maybe a LAW) rocekt, but the team was pretty well wiped out by the 'foreign' body guards. A bad day. Paul, in Saudi 12:00, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Operation Acid Gambit was an operation conducted by Delta Force operators with Night Stalkers and US Air Force assistance (in the form of an MH-6 and AC-130 gunship, respectively). The operation conducted was the rescue of a U.S. citizen Kurt Muse from a prison controlled by Noriega (Muse had been making radio broadcasts against Noriega). The operation lasted six minutes with a single casualty--one Delta operator was injured while loading onto the MH-6.--SOCL 16:20, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Would you please put that in the article itself (not just a reference?)--CSTAR 16:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I will get to it on Thursday (my weekend). Of course the real story of Muse is more exciting.

ACID GAMBIT (U.S. 89) A plan to rescue Central Intelligence Agency operative Kurt Muse from a Panamanian prison in which he was held in 1989. Muse had been arrested while attempting to set up a covert anti-Noriega radio station in Panama City. Political considerations delayed the raid by the elite “Delta Force” until the United States invaded Panama to topple the local dictator (JUST CAUSE). The rescue went smoothly, and was carried out more quickly than any of the elaborate rehearsals. The helicopter flying Muse out crashed shortly after leaving the Comandancia. Another aircraft had to rescue him from the crash.

GWB (former CIA chief) was vey eager to get KM out of there. Guys at SOUTHCOM were walking the White House through the op live as it happened. The crash of the helicopter onto the tidal mud flats was the trick ending. Paul, in Saudi 18:00, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Casualties??

someone edited civilian casualties to 500-4.000? whats the source? this is news to me. I've seen a lot of information on the operation, but I've never heard of this number. --James Bond 06:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

That's a range depending on the source, some of which are listed in the article. --CSTAR 06:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Casualties??

Why does the US side of the box list people that were wounded, while the panama side only lists people that were killed? Ojw 19:43, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I added the casualties figures to the box. I didnt list a Panamanian wounded number simply because I could not find one. --James Bond 11:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Ramsey Clark has a NPOV?!?

Could we find a more NPOV independent study than one done by Ramsey Clark. --BohicaTwentyTwo 19:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Concerns

I have some NPOV concerns about this whole article, but particularly the section called "International reaction." The last three paragraphs are devoted to expressing doubts about the U.S. motivations and fears about ulterior motives. First, these are all unsourced. Phrases like "widely viewed," "perceived throughout Latin America," "considered to be", and "generally believed" raise red flags. If these reactions occurred, then cite a source or attribute them to somebody. Otherwise, they're just unsubstantiated opinion.

I think the last paragraph is particuarly egregious, because it concludes "these fears had some credibility." In fact, the things that were reportedly feared to be the real motivations for the invasion did not ultimately happen The U.S. did not restablish military bases (or increase it's military presence), they did not overturn the treaties ceding control of the canal, and democracy was restored after Noriega's ouster.

Contrast this section with the first one, "Reasons for invasion." The structure is to present President Bush's statement, followed by criticism that essentially dismisses his rationale. Is that really NPOV? There's an imbalance between these two sections.

I'm not opposed to including critcism of the U.S., in fact I believe strongly that it should be included. But this reads too much like one person's opinion. It's not encylopedic at all.

Anson2995 16:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I suggest you place the marker {{fact}} (which looks like )after the relevant paragraphs to note that references are needed. I really don't see that there is much doubt about these facts in general terms, however. So some references to support (possibly weakened) versions of these assertions shouldn't be too hard to find.--CSTAR 16:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, CSTAR. I've gone ahead and done that. Please note that I'm, not arguing that these criticisms didn't exist or even necessarily asking for citations to back them up. I'm primarily saying that this section is very poorly written.

For example: "It is generally believed that during that time the United States did little to curtail his involvement in drug trafficking." Generally believed by whom? Was this belief based on anything substantive or was it just idle gossip? Were the beliefs borne out by any evidence? A better sentence might be something like "Noriega had been on the CIA payroll since 1967, despite evidence that he was deeply involved in drug trafficking. The U.S. indicted him on federal drug charges in 1988." Citation or not, that's a presentation of fact rather than of opinion.

And again, I don't think it's NPOV to document criticism of the U.S. motivation without also documenting whether or not those criticisms turned out to be fair. There's too much in this article about why the operation took place and too little about the results. Did the U.S. inrease its military presence? Was democracy restored? Were the treaties protected? Was drug trafficking combated? Without that sort of information, this article seems to me to be nothing more than a criticism of the U.S. action. There's very little in here that's critical of Noriega or the PDF, criticism that would tend to support the views of President Bush. There's no mention of the human rights abuses, the rigged election, or the murder of opposition leaders, all of which are an important part of understanding the U.S. motivations. If the anti-Noriega view can't be presented here, then the anti-U.S. view shouldn't be presented either Anson2995 18:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: There's no mention of the human rights abuses, the rigged election, or the murder of opposition leaders, all of which are an important part of understanding the U.S. motivations. If the anti-Noriega view can't be presented here, then the anti-U.S. view shouldn't be presented either

I don't think that claim about the article is true: the human right abuses and the rigged election are both mentioned. Moreover, there is a lot of information about the murder of opposition leaders in other WP articles which are linked to this one. As far as balance, the justification given by Bush is there in the article without any commentary. What else do you think is necessary?

Re: "It is generally believed that during that time the United States did little to curtail his involvement in drug trafficking." " I agree, I think your formulation is better.

Re Was democracy restored?. The article does mention that elections have taken place regularly since then and that Panama has a free press (or some such thing).

On balance, I think that that modulo the need for citations and the sentence you reformulated, the article is fair. --CSTAR 19:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not neutral to enumerate the official reasons given by the US exclusively under "reasons for the attack". The widely criticized invasion that arguably broke the UN Charter is suspected internationally to have had very different reasons, as implicated in the international reactions section. Añoranza 16:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Only the attacking country can say why it did that. Its not POV to state their reasons in its own section. Normally an article like this would have a seperate criticism section, however this one is called international reactions apparently even though they are all negative and criticism. --zero faults 16:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not neutral to reproduce propaganda under a neutral title that prominently and ban criticism to the end of the article. We do not have a large official Nazi section on the justification of the holocaust either. Añoranza 16:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The reasons cited by the government is not propaganda. Its the reasons as cited by the government. Perhaps we should remove all mention of the US reason, and any criticism of the war as well to balance it out, however as you know: NPOV:Undue Weight does not allow only criticism to be posted. --zero faults 16:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Please inform yourself about what propaganda means. Of course it would be equally biased only to represent the criticism, both parts are needed but neutrally represented. Añoranza 17:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should expand the international reaction section then? Also the holocaust was not a war, in case you are confused about that. --zero faults 17:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The complaint was not that the international reactions section is too small but that the US stated reasons are positioned prominently directly after the intro. Propaganda names can be used whether a war or not, your comment is off-topic. Añoranza 01:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I already addressed that issue. If you feel placement is the problem, which is now a new reason, then move the Internation Reaction below it ... --zero faults 01:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Propaganda title

As "Operation Just Cause" is obviously a propaganda term and analyzed as such in the article itself it is inappropriate as the title for an article that is about what happened and not about the propaganda term itself. Añoranza 15:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Is this a request for opinions or simply a warning. Can I see the policy stating your above comments? Perhaps "Being Bold" should also take into consideration other people. --zero faults 16:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This is so obvious that I do not request other opinions, and for wikipedia policy just take a look at NPOV. Añoranza 17:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Añoranza, you have made your edits under the claim of removing the POV of this article; the title may indeed be determined to POV. However, by dismissing these titles as "POV" and "propaganda" without discussion seems awfully ironic. Let's determine a consensus. --tomf688 (talk - email) 19:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The article itself explains why the title is propaganda. Protecting the article under that title without placing an NPOV tag is obscene. Añoranza 22:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not adverse to renaming the article, provided there is consensus for it. The alternate name should be specific enough to distinguish this operation from others, something like "1989 United States invasion of Panama". Moreover, it should be stated that "Just Cause" was the operational name adopted by the US military (specifically avoid use of the word propaganda in the section heading). It currently says that the name is hardly used outside official US circles (e.g. military, state department). --CSTAR 23:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Operational names are chosen for propaganda purposes, and this is a very obvious example. The repeated argumentation "it is official, thus no propaganda" disturbs me. Is it really that easy to pull the wool over wikipedians' eyes? Would you write the same if it was an "official" Nazi term? Añoranza 23:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a wide swath of territory that is covered by the term "propaganda." Public relations is arguably propaganda, advertising is propaganda (as you undoubtedly know in spanish these two terms are virtually indistinguishable) but in the english wikipedia it is generally preferred to distinguish them. I don't think we are pulling wool over anybody's eyes. I for one would be very sceptical of an encyclopedia which uses the word propaganda too much. Misplaced Pages may not be worth much, but by using "propaganda" as you suggest, it would have even less value.--CSTAR 23:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

A miltary invasion of a foreign country named "just cause", what could be more propaganda? Añoranza 00:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Operation names are what they are. Removing all of them from Misplaced Pages is removing valuable content. --zero faults 00:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As you know very well, I never wanted any operation names to be completely removed. I do not want "final solution of the Jewish question" removed either. It is just inappropriate to refer to conflicts with the name given to them just by one party. As this article is about the Panama invasion and most articles that link here refer to the invasion, too, using the name of one party's military is inappropriate. Añoranza 00:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

We use Holocaust do we not? We use Cold War do we not? If you want to prove your sincerity how about you wage a war against the term Cold War as it was created by a US politician. The truth is its not about propaganda terms or operations terms, its about the military, such as can be seen by your edits in Iraq War. I would be tempted to believe you if you had not gone on a spree attempting to remove certain terms from Misplaced Pages entirely and even without merit for other peoples work or the inconsistencies you were creating or redundant statements. --zero faults 00:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You were refuted a zillion times about your cold war analogy, but as you seem to like it so much I tell you again: cold war is not biased as it does not favor any side. Añoranza 01:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Its not biased to hide the fact that numerous nations were invaded and wars took place on their soil? --zero faults 01:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Please check what bias means. "Just cause" clearly favors the US government view of the conflict while Cold war does not favor any side. Añoranza 01:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Protected

I've temporarily protected this page because it smells like an edit war is brewing. Please discuss these changes and determine consensus, and I or another admin will unprotect it. Thanks. --tomf688 (talk - email) 19:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Could we agree to return it to a prior state (say this one ) and work from there? --CSTAR 19:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a fair enough request. --tomf688 (talk - email) 19:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

As the title is obviously propaganda I urge you to put an NPOV tag and insist that it should have been done right away before the protection. Furthermore, picking an old version for protection is against wikipedia rules. If you do not undo this immediately I file a complaint. Añoranza 22:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Its the name of a military operation name. I dont see you changing any that are not related to the US. I do not see you challenging the basis for an article on the Holocaust which itself means "sacrificial offering to God". You are not attempting to change all mentions of Holocaust to "WW2 Situation involving certain groups." Its your need to change every operation name only when it involves the US, this after a debate where it was proven that operation names were used on Misplaced Pages when you insisted War on Terrorism should be renamed and not associated with the war itself. Its as POV as Cold War another term made by US politicians to describe a series of political and military situations, it is also a term you should challenge as people in Korea would not agree with the term since it was not "cold" when bombs were dropping. --zero faults 22:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

How many readers will associate the US invasion of Panama with the name "Operation Just Cause"? Naming convention is to use the most widely used, most understandable and most neutral name. A propaganda name that most people will not even understand does not meet any of these criteria. If you find any articles with inappropriate Nazi propaganda titles you are welcome to change them. I stumbled over this because an officer accused of war crimes in Iraq had the name in his article. Making unfounded accusations does not shed a good light on the reasons you have here. Añoranza 22:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Aparently all of the editors who created the articles you reverted as well as all the readers who left it and never changed it, they all seem to understand and associate it, also all the books and articles mentioned as sources that also mention it. Do you read the articles you are editing? It seems not if that is your arguement. --zero faults 00:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That is just ridiculous. As the current article title is "operation blabla", editors who refer to the invasion avoided redirects by using it. Furthermore, most articles linking here are about the military and heavily influenced by military personnel, this in no way reflects whether the average wikipedian knows the propaganda term. And even if everyone knew it, it is still not neutral. Añoranza 00:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Assumptions. --zero faults 00:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Not neutral" is not an assumption, it is a plain fact. Añoranza 00:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Your treading water. In one location you are stating you are changing these names cause propaganda, in the other you are stating its cause of a redirect, get your story straight. --zero faults 01:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I countered your complaint about "operation iraqi freedom" with the fact that it is not even the article title and thus changing the link to a neutral term in no way shows bias. I removed "just cause" just because it is a propaganda term. Añoranza 01:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Deny all you want, I am done arguing with you, your varied intentions has been documented. I am no longer participating in this discussion with you. If you want, feel free to initiate a poll, but remember straw polls have to have their questions agreed on by the community. --zero faults 01:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

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