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Talk:List of people from Croatia

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Doubts

I see that the user from 67.x.y.z has been having a field day with this page. While I can appreciate enthusiasm, some of the edits are on a very slippery slope. For example:

  • Marco Polo is alleged to have been born on the Croatian island of Korčula, to a Slavic family called Polić natively but changed to de Polo in order to naturalize to the Venetian government (Dalmatia was mostly ruled by Venice those days), and later moved to Venice themselves. The de Polo's still live in Korčula today (my mother happens to be from there so I know for sure), and there's a house that's a small tourist attraction because it's "the birthplace of Marco Polo", but whether the explorer himself was (or the extent of his heritage) from this family is not so certain AFAIK.
  • Joseph Haydn was from Burgenland (Gradišće), a province in easternmost Austria today that's known to be inhabited by many Croats (gradišćanski Hrvati), and many of his compositions are recorded by him as coming from folk songs. There are families in Croatia called Hajdinjak and similar, so many speculate that Haydns were originally Croats from Burgenland, but again, this is not at all certain.
Serbian --Igor
  • Emile Zola is speculated to be Croat by some French scientist apparently amicable towards the Croats in general, based on some Croatian-sounding terms used in his literature? Very stretched to say the least.
  • Nikola Tesla was from Croatia but was from a Serb family (probably originally Vlachs due to the last name), not Croat.
You are embarrassing yourself as usual, Tesla is not a Vlach surname, it is a plowing tool, Slavic word. See town of Teslić as well. --Igor

I think I also saw several Croatian Jews listed -- the extent of their naturalization should probably be verified before declaring them Croats.

Also there's Slavoljub Eduard Penkala, who was not ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Croat. Conversely, Ivo Andrić was ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Serb. I suppose listing both kinds is the best compromise, but I'm not sure if that's the consensus.

So, anyway, my point is: tread lightly. --Shallot 17:46, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Marco Polo

As with above information, the arguments for the theory that Marco Polo was a Croatian are very controversial and are pseudohistorical. As typed above under Doubts, the allegation is such that those purporting its authenticity claim Marco Polo was born on the Croatian island of Korčula, to a Slavic family called Polić natively but changed to de Polo in order to naturalize to the Venetian government. Because there is a house (tourist attraction) dubbed the "birthplace of Marco Polo" and the fact that there is a de Polo family living on Korčula is neither here nor there. It does not equate to substantial or significant evidence that Marco Polo actually of Slavic extraction. The theory is also put forward with unfounded claims that because there is a de Polo family in Argentina who speak Croatian, suddenly this is irrefutable evidence that someone who lived as far back as the 13th century could be somehow connected to these Croatian migrants in Argentina (see discussion on Marco Polo's wiki entry for further details and evidence inThe "Polo" surname).

Marco Polo should not be added here in the entry of famous Croatian explorers. The integrity of Misplaced Pages is under scrutiny in such cases where pseudohistorical and poorly argued points are presented as fact. Paullus 23:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Paullus 23:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC) Marco Polo is still being added with the dubious name of Marko Polic (there is absolutely no historical recording ever attesting to this name having ever been associated with Marco Polo). According to Misplaced Pages policy, all additions must be verifiable, which the theory of Marco Polo being from Korčula is not. Look at the discussion on The "Polo" surname under Marco Polo.

Misplaced Pages's integrity degrades each time someone adds unfounded claims such as this, claims which are not verifiable. Paullus 23:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Paullus 05:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC) Hello Cold water, have a look at a message I posted on your personal discussion page regarding this topic please. Hope to hear from you soon, thanks Paullus 05:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


Paullus 02:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC) Hi Cold Water, thanks for your message, I've sent you another one. Check out your user profile and go to the tab "discussion", from there you can read my new message and edit it to put another one for me to read. All the best Paullus 02:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

John Malkovich

As for John Malkovich- http://www.allstarz.org/~malkovich/financial.html Even though of Croatian and Scottish descent, Malkovich had a relatively typical Midwestern upbringing in the small Illinois town of Benton, some 300 miles south of Chicago. His father published a conservation magazine and his mother ran the local newspaper. So there was no reason for the chubby and much-ridiculed John to be interested in sophisticated European culture -- until he went to college. In 1976 he dropped out of a drama degree at Illinois State University, moved to Chicago and co-founded with several old friends the Steppenwolf Theatre Company, where he acted in and directed works by classic and modern European authors. It would become one of the most recognised regional groups in the US.

As much as Malkovich values its tradition and way of life, he says Europe is "not a place I take incredibly seriously: after all, it was the homeland of the Inquisition, totalitarianism, genocide and the invention of several bloody crusades". He also has harsh words for its media for what he deems unfair treatment of the US.83.131.114.18 21:30, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Not only that, but he recently (2003) came to Croatia and commented publically on his two grandparents who emigrated from the country into the States. --Shallot 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
And not only that: I remember that back in 1991, Malkovich made a TV spot (actually, it was conceived by Croatian-American artist Nenad Bach) wherein he recited IN CROATIAN first 5-7 lines of Croatian National anthem "Lijepa naša domovino". It was a sign of support for the Croatian struggle for independence in war against Serbian aggression.Mir Harven 13:07, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

John Malkovich is actually of Serb origin and not of Croatian origin. His last name is of Serb origin and even though he says he's from Croatia, he's not actually a Croat. This hymn reciting was a mistake and he didn't really know what they were asking of him. He admitted that later on in print. Croatia used to have a large Serb minority until 1992 when they were prosecuted and ethnically cleansed from Croatia. BBC has him listed as of Serb origin: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/tennis/features/newsid_2893000/2893189.stm

Even if all you said was true, and I'm far from convinced it is esp. the blather at the end, none of that that would preclude his listing on this page. --Shallot 18:46, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
OK, BBC puts him as Serbian, now what guys, BBC is Greater Serbian propaganda too? A Maljkovic christened me and he is Serbian (from Lika), now what. I am taking him off just like Tesla and Pete Maravich. You Croats are going to have to find someone else to steal celebrities from, I suggest you claim Leonardo da Vinci on top of Marco Polo, Mozart as well as Haydn. --Igor
Just for the record, I have not been able to confirm anything about this admittal of Malkovich's, it's rather unsurprising to see Serbs and Croats with the same last and/or first names, and it's also entirely unsurprising to see Igor badmouth "us Croats" for whatever. I looked up Maravich and it seems that he was a Serb so that listing was apparently plain wrong (committed by the anonymous 6x.y.z.w user, I should mention), and the Polo and Haydn entries committed by the same user are also on shakey ground, but using that as an excuse to remove Tesla altogether is just too transparent. --Shallot 16:59, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Igor, and others. Just because you know some Serbs with surname Maljković, it doesn't mean that every family on this world with that surname are Serbs. Have you asked yourself are there any Croats with surname Maljković? Have you ever looked at Croatian phonebook? Maljković are Croatian family from a village near Split, for example. And first, John Malkovich said that his family are Croats, and that they come from Ozalj near Karlovac. Ozalj, the old Frankopan town. At last, does anybody believe that a "Serb" from a second American-born generation, would stand on Croatia's side in 1990's? Talking about Tesla, there's something interesting he once said: "I'm a Croat, because Croats and Serbs are one nation." We have to have in mind that he had a picture of Croats and Serbs from Lika. Not the Serbs from Šumadija. Taking Haydn as possible Croat is not without reason. In his works he took motives from Croatian songs. That doesn't proove, but points to that direction.Kubura.

2 years ago, John Malkovich gave an interview to croatian magazine, where he gave full information on his background. He said his paternal grandfather came from Ozalj in Western Croatia to USA. John´s father spoke Croatian, and John himself only knows some croatian curses and greetengs. The town of Ozalj is almost 100% populated with Croats, and all people who´s last name is Malkovic, not Maljkovic are Croats. Even today, there are some relatives of John, and they are not Serbs. They still live in Ozalj in Karlovac county. I would like you to ask if you don´t know for sure, and then write on the internet

Rename

It occurs to me that a better title for the page would be list of Croatians, because that doesn't imply ethnic nationalism, rather a link with the country, which may or may not be combined with ethnicity. And to avoid any claims of misappropriation, ethnic classification and/or name of political entity that controlled the place a person was from can be added next to each name. --Shallot 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Done now. Should be reasonably uncontroversial now. --Shallot 12:57, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

More Doubts

Eh, that anonymous user went through the whole page like a tornado again... among other questionable things, Pope Sixtus V Croatian?? I googled and found some site from Herceg Novi saying he was the son of a Serb... brrr, this looks like another Pandora's box. --Shallot 00:13, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The page about the Bokelji adds a somewhat explanatory twist on this story. --Shallot 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think you mixed Pope Sixtus V, with Lepopold Mandich. Leopold Mandich was Montenergrian. An Ortodox who bacame a Catholic priest. Pope Sixtus V, was from Croatian father, born in Croatian village of Krusevo in Zadar county. His last name was Perich.

Leopold Mandić is from Croatia. His grandparents are Croats from Zakučac. Often the Serbs (and Montenegrins) have this confusion, because of surname Mandić that appear also among Montenegrins in Herceg-Novi area (eventually Leopold Mandić is born in there). See Sveti Leopold Mandić u svetištu Zakučac na Cetini, Sv. Leopold Mandić, "ljudima prijatelj, Poljički sin Leopold Mandić, Vatikanska niša čeka našeg sveca, Blagoslov novouređene kapelice u Zakučcu. Or, if you want it this way, look the Croatian phonebook and you'll find surname Mandić among Croats from that area. Kubura 15:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Rick Rossovich

Found another odd case: Rick Rossovich, an actor from California, had a great-great-grandfather who lived in Mošćenička Draga (on the coast in the Istria county). His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina, but the aforementioned place is not. --Shallot 22:31, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Quot"His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina". I suppose you mean http://www.us.imdb.com/name/nm0001685/bio ? This is a complete nonsense, added by some propagandist. There are no Rosović Serbs in "Krajina", and one can very well see this by typing this surname into search window of Cro phonebooks, http://www.htnet.hr/imenik/fset.html . Well, type Rosović, and you'll find 12 persons, all Croats (according to first names-one of them Hrvoje/Croat) in and around Mošćenićka Draga. Judging from clumsy syntax and pathetic effort to inform the public that "Krajina" (written as "Kranija") is not to be confused with Croatia or anything Croatian- it's pretty obvious that Serbian agitprop had been nosing around. I've seen Rossovich IMDB bio and there was no "Krajina" part. Then I've written in Wiki he was of Croatian ancestry. And, lo and behold- magically, "Krajina" ad appears on the Rossovich bio page. Coincidence. Yeah, in some parallel universe.Mir Harven 23:53, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I had a bad feeling about it given the geographical inconsistency and bad spelling. How perverse. Thank you, I've just submitted the correction to the IMDb staff. --Shallot 02:14, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Rick Rossovich actually is Croat, but one of his ancestors was a Serb from Krajina. But this is such a small portion that he can not be considered a Serb. If you were to sum it up he is 6.25% (1/16th) Serb.

Rick Rossovich Unofficial Homepage http://www.rickrossovich.de with a Bio of German and many Photos.

IMDb again says: "Is of Serbian/Italian descent, Moscenicka Draga is home of his paternal great-great grandfather. Maternal ancestry is Italian.". So, umm... --Joy 23:53, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Rossovich (Rosović) family are not the Serbs at all. They are of Montenegrin origin. Rosović's are from a small village on Istria peninsula, in Croatia (though, many of them declared themselves as Croats, before Croatia proclaimed independence). So that info (from Krajina??) on IMDb came from some greaterserbianist who has no connection to real life and the real world. Kubura 13:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks from Shallot

ChrisO, thanks for extending the introduction, though I doubt that it will help much with handling the abuse of those who consider the mere notion of association with a word involving the letters "C"/"H" and "R" is something abhorrent, and there certainly seem to be enough of those to go around... --Shallot 14:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What did I tell you... --Shallot 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

More on Haydn

I've taken Haydn off the list again. Look, even William Hadow, who seems to have been a pretty ardent Croatianist, only speculated that Haydn was Croatian, and offered only circumstantial evidence. Moreover, a lot of Hadow's "evidence" is utterly subjective and based only on nationalist stereotypes.

If there is solid documentary evidence, gathered since Hadow's day, that Haydn was of Croatian ancestry, I'd be happy to see this claim restored to the page. But speculation in the Misplaced Pages should labeled as such, not presented as fact. --Opus33 22:09, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This anonymous user is really making a mess... --Shallot

Maradona

Maradona is not a Croatian player thats for sure!!!!! Avala 13:22, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I just found some info that some croatian TV once said but never confirmed again that Maradona has roots in Croatia. It was said something like his grand grand grand father from mothers side was Croat. Even if this is true than you can say grand grand grand father of Maradona was Croat but you have to provide his name too.

For an example- Elizabeth II has family roots in Serbia but she is still English not Serbian.

Yeah, the overzealous anonymous user is at it again. I've moderated him on several occasions now... *shrug* --Shallot 18:44, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Just for the record, the best information I dug out about this was this short article that references other works but doesn't name them, and it's just one great-grandmother. --Shallot
Ovu informaciju, navodi, duguje Ljeposlavu Periniću, "hrvatskom kralju lutaka". Perinić, Hrvat koji je nakon drugog svjetskog rata emigrirao u Argentinu, rođen je 1922..
I think that we all know who was runnig to Argentina after WWII :(
Avala 11:47, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Not that this is particularly relevant to the matter at hand, but if you think he must have been a fascist, no, that doesn't really have to be. There's was economic emigration, as well as Communism-related emigration at that time. Anyway, again, the primary source isn't the guy who told something to Žubrinić, but the referenced French geneaologist. --Shallot 16:20, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

but still if my grand mother is from papua new guinea i am not papuan new guinean :) and we are talking about grand grand grand... Avala 16:25, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You would still have Papua-New-Guinean ancestry and if there was a list of such people, it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to have you listed. A great-grandmother (as in this case) is not exactly close, but if one of his daughters is called Dalma, then it's not unreasonable to assume that he is aware of his links to that branch of his family.
Anyway, the right thing to do would be to exclude the corner cases from the main list and have them in a separate section. --Shallot 16:47, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Surname, Name format

It seems that the Surname, Name format has proven to be rather hard to maintain. We could get rid of all those pipe links and keep the page consistent easier. --Shallot 18:11, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Croat

"This is a list of more or less famous people with Croatian heritage, born in or associated with Croatia or of Croatian ancestry, including both Croats and members of Croatia's national minorities:"

From the top of the page. If Avala wishes to create a page of List of ethnic Croats who are also Croatian citizens, please go ahead. However this page isn't it. Like all other country list pages it takes in those of Croat ethnicity wherever they live and those born in Croatian who aren't ethnic Croats. Rmhermen 23:56, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)


AHM AHM Mario Andretti was born in Italy and he is on the list just because that part of Italy is now Croatian!!!!! We can even add Dennis Rodman because he visited Croatia last summer! Why not add anyone who lived in SFRY after all Croatia was part of it so everyone born in SFRY are connected to Croatia and they can be on the list. Also I told you taht your denial of fascism is scaring me! Avala 12:45, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

If Andretti doesn't qualify (parents emigrated after WWII?), that's okay, you don't have to apply reductio ad absurdum with Rodman/SFRY to remove him. The introduction rather clearly delineates who is included. Note also, claiming Istria is "that part of Italy" is rather POV... We can't and shouldn't exclude regions that weren't Croatia forever because then we'd have to exclude them all -- it was all Illyria/Illyricum before. Same goes for most other places in the world... I've no idea what is meant by the fascism reference... --Shallot 16:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
His article says they fled Yugoslavia and lived in a displaced persons camp. Sounds like a borderline case but he did live in Croatia for a short time. Rmhermen 18:54, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
I looked up Mario Andretti's history a bit. His birthplace was part of a modern state (of Italy) and his family was Italian. Perhaps suitable for the corner case section... --Shallot 19:34, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
NO. He is suitable for list of Italians because ,I will say again, this is not a list of people connected to Croatia, it clearly says list of Croatians and if he is Italian then I don`t know what are you trying to prove? Maybe you have inferiority complex because there are not enough world famous sportsman that are Croatian so you are laying claims for other people by saying they are Croatian but please heal your problems with your psychiatrist not Misplaced Pages! Avala 07:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You seriously need to chill out. It's enough that we have one person who cannot be talked to, we don't need another.
Also, there needs to be consistency. Nino Benvenuti was also born in the period between the world wars in Istria, and you haven't removed him. --Shallot 13:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
OK. Now they are both deleted and please don`t add them again because it is misleading to have them on this page.Avala 19:59, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I would like to keep it that way, but it seems that the anonymous user just won't give up. I think if we provide the explanatory paragraph that this may placate them. --Shallot
Anonymous user? WHO IS anonymous user TO MAKE MESS IN HERE? BAN HIM!Avala 19:27, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps we could establish whether these two gentlemen were ever Croatian citizens. If Andretti was a citizen and lived there a couple years before fleeing, I would say include him as a corner case. If his family fled immediately than he really has no connection. I couldn't find any information in English on Benvenuti -did he live in Croatia at all? Rmhermen 20:37, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
I think No. Maybe at most a year but in hell of life running away from revenge because of what fascist Italians did in WWII. On official website there is not a word about Croatia.Avala

Maradona

IF YOU WANT TO SAY THAT MARADONA IS CROATIAN THEN YOU ARE WRONG-SAY LIKE THIS GREAT GRAND GRAND MOTHER OF MARADONA CALLED XY WAS CROATIAN. IF YOU WANT TO ADD MARADONA CHANGE THE NAME List of Croatians TO List of People Somehow connected to Croatia! Avala 12:49, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't think anyone other than the anonymous user is saying that. They are way overzealous and need to be corrected. If they insist on reverting the page, they will get banned... --Shallot 16:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ivan Duknovic

http://users.tyenet.com/kozlich/baroque.htm

http://www.amb-croatie.fr/culture/renaissance_croatie.htm

More to come. Mir Harven 17:48, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't think I removed this... I traced that person's pseudonym that has an article already, and moved the page accordingly, but it needs work. --Shallot 17:54, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Latest crap commits

This time it wasn't just the 6x.y.z.w anonymous user, it was also User:GeneralPatton :( FYI: the ordering is alphabetical, the word "hero" is entirely unsuitable, explain on Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic how it's a "lie" before changing his entry here (let alone removing it!), Kurjak certainly seems to be from Croatia even if you wish to insult him for being Bosniak and mafia, Branko Lustig has a page so you can list his religion there, etc, etc. Kindly refrain from further mass-demolition. --Shallot 11:40, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

  1. Sve ono o Miroslavu Filipovicu-Majstorovicu, sve one fantazije o jesenovcu, je četnička propaganda, ako netko več treba da bude mass muderer, onda je tito, sa svim križnim putevima i golim otocima najbolji kandidat o tome. Titov režim i njegovi komunistički teroristi su pobili oko 500.000 Hrvata, a po nekima, to čak ide do 1 milijun!

http://www.freedomsnest.com/rummel_murderers.html Josip Tito yugoslavia 1941-1987 1,172,000

Very funny. Tito died in 1980 and is the hero of the Yugoslavs. All your propaganda has landed you in poverty about some religion you yourselves dont follow. (March 22nd, 06)
That is entirely inconsequential. When the primary characteristic that seems to make a person known is mass murder, they should be listed as such. When the primary characteristic that makes a person known is being a politician, ditto. --Shallot
  1. Kurjak je dokazani kriminalac, komunistički sin, musliman rođen u Bosni. To što sad živi u Hrvatskoj ništa ne znači, a ionako sad najviše radi po Bosni. Mene vrijeđa to što je na ovom popisu, to je kao da bi netko napisao muhameda attu pod poznate Amerikance, samo zato što je neko vrijeme živio u Americi.
I guess you'd have to discuss that with the 6x.y.z.w user who initially added him. As far as I know, he's a known figure from Croatian public life and has no less place on this list than other such people. --Shallot
  1. Lustig je židov koji sa Hrvatskom, osim mjesta rođenja, nema ništa. On ne zaslužuje da da bude na ovom popisu velikana, isto kao i razne mire furlan, srbkinje koje isto nemaju ništa sa Hrvatskom, i brojni drugi. Lustig ništa nije uradio za Hrvatsku, a mogao bi, nego snima filmove po maltama, maroku... ma goni ga.
First of all, this is not a list of great men, simply of more or less famous people. Secondly, Lustig is widely recognized as Croatian, in Croatia and abroad, regardless of his ethnicity/religion, and Furlan is as well (and she is not Serbian, that's a factual error). Personal preference, or lack thereof, simply cannot be a criterion for inclusion in the list. --Shallot
  1. Redosljed je najbolje napraviti po važnosti!
That's biased by the very definition. Who determines the importance? You? Me? Random anonymous users? It simply wouldn't work. --Shallot

A GENERALI GOTOVINA, NORAC I BOBETKO JESU HEROJI, I UVJEK ČE TO BIT!

Again, this is an encyclopedia, not another random Internet forum for everyone to express their views on life, universe, and everything. See Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view.
You are also breaching netiquette by using a language foreign to this section of Misplaced Pages. Sadly enough, at the same time making numerous spelling errors in that language. Please refrain from further embarrassment and cease the abuse of this article. --Shallot 10:14, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
I AM REALLY ANGRY THAT YOU CONSIDER GOTOVINA AND BOBETKO HEROES. BOBETKO I THINK WAS EVEN SENTENCED IN THE HAGUE FOR KILLING SERBIAN PEOPLE! I AM DEEPLY DISSAPOINTED!!! --Avala 21:11, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Just a factual correction: Gotovina and Bobetko were indicted in the Hague, not convicted; Norac was indicted and convicted in Croatia. --Shallot 09:47, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Well ONE is enough even too much! It reminds me of some idiots in Belgrade which call Milosevic a hero even though he is is responsible for murder not only bosniaks but serbs too.

GeneralPatton also wrote in commit logs (partly translated):

- mak dizdar, islamized commie
That's pure bias. --Shallot
- Fadil Hadžić was Tito's Muslim propagandist, proof : crap known as "Desant na Drvar". Commie yes, Croat, NO!
And again bias, and inability to read the initial paragraph. It is indicative that it seems to be impossible to explain both to Serbian and Croatian ultra-nationalists that the list cannot include just ethnic Croat people. --Shallot
took out the link to "* List of Slavs" since recent DNA tests have proven that Croats are mostly not of slavic origin (just 20%)
That reasoning is just bonkers. Should you interpret the genetic analyses like that, you would find that many Slavic nations of today are "mostly not of Slavic origin". Anyway, the argument that genetics somehow overrule the course of the last two milleniums of history, is specious IMHO. --Shallot 10:22, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

For the record, I found by googling that Viktor Bubanj held the rank of general in the WWII partizan army, and once had a barracks named after him in Sarajevo and a grade school in Zagreb, and he was branded by user GeneralPatton as "terrorist". At the same time, Ustasa members such as Jure Francetić were branded by him as "freedom fighters". This is amusingly in line with the popular saying "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". I have therefore removed all such verbiage from the article. Among other things, his includes Avala's note on Pavelić. We should stick to general descriptions here and leave the juicy details for people's articles. If someone wishes to say something about someone, don't make passing remarks in here which may only cause controversy. Instead, click the person's name and write it up, it's easy. --Shallot 12:40, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

It is better?

How is it better to write that Pavelic was politician when he was ustasha leader? Adolf Hitler was not funny little man even if somebody think so.

Regardless, they were essentially politicians. We may think that their kind of politics/policies were abhorrent, but that doesn't make the fact that they were politicians any less true or less pertinent. --Shallot 16:42, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

But picture worths 1000 words!

Here, it says it all:

File:Chequy.JPG

I just hope that you will not say that he is waving to the children on this picture because we all know that he is waving to him.

Avala 09:33, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

And this picture is the one you can`t oppose to!

File:Hitler29.jpg

He was Hitler`s puppet just like Pavelic made Croatia to be.

Avala 09:38, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

And all this is perfectly well described in his article and those that are linked from that article. (If not -- go ahead and add it to those pages.) This is merely a list of people, we can't include pictures and whatnot, it would become extremely cluttered if we started doing that. --Shallot 16:42, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Malkovich is Croatian name, and John Malkovich is really a Croat. Who does'nt believe can check the Croatian phonebook, just type 'Malković': http://imenik.ht.hr/

In the List? and Croatian?

--User:Sheynhertz-Unbayg/sig 13:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

czech president?

Isn't the new czech president of Croat descent?

Why not...

... include historical prominent individuals into the article? --HolyRomanEmperor 23:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposition to shorten article...

I think that it is un necessary to have so many people listed. We a section for "Builders" and half of it is with red links that most people have never heard of. A lot of sections are not very desirable. I think we should just leave the list to the most influential successful people and cut out the rest to shorten it. It will also keep people reading the page. Anybody agree?

JJstroker 05:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Modifying peoples' articles.../Deleting names...

Some people are deleting names, or deleting them and adding them to the Serbian list, without explaning why...

Or going on to the person's article and modifying information, deleting the original info into something else, without explaning...

Maury Povich

A lot of people have thought that Maury Povich could be of Serbian or Croatian ancestry...

His father Shirley Povich was born in the USA to Jewish parents from Lithuania.

Beethoven

His mother was Slav, her maiden name was Keverich, a not so common name anywhere in the world, but there's Croatian Keverics...

Joe Lapchick

He is an NBA Hall of Famer, I wonder if his original name was Lapcic

Belichick = Belicic / Lapchick = Lapcic?

Nationality of Josip Broz

It is written that Josip Broz is a person of Yugoslav nationality. However, on many occasions he claimed to be a Croat. For instance during his visit in Bregana on the 5th of July 1971. he said to general secretary of the Central Committee of the League of Communists of Croatia at the time (Savka Dabčević-Kučar): "You think that I do not have any national feelings. You think that I do not consider myself to be a Croat, that I left our country as young proletarian, that the proletarian internationalism had superseded any national feeling from me. I am an internationalist, because we are the communists and we must be internationalists. However, I am also a Croat." (D. Bilandžić, Hrvatska moderna povijest, Golden marketing, Zagreb, 1999., p. 601.) Therefore, I believe that it should not be written that Josip Broz is a person of Yugoslav nationality. Brunislav 19:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Cathie Couric

Anyone knows if she is of Croatian descent?

NHL, John Kordic and late picks

I read and heard that he was half Native-American and that he had a Yugoslavian uncle that played pro-football.

Where did you hear that his mother was from Mostar?

And also I suggest that the late picks that u've added be on another page, below the NHL players that have actually played in the NHL be a link to another page with NHL picks of Croatian descent.

Gervais is a french-canadian name, what makes u think he is of Croatian descent.

For Gervais, see my answer on your page. There's a small group of Croats with surname Gervais. That's why I put him on the list as a person of possible Croat origin. Kubura 09:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

About John Kordic, search the net. His father is Ivan and mother is Regina. They are from around Mostar. Only Croats have such surname there. Where did you got the info that he's half-native American? Kubura 09:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It says so on many sites, google it... He did kinda look like part Native... although it could be false...

Tennis Players

I wonder if Gisela Dulko (#1 of Argentina) is of Croatian descent. Dulko doesn't seem like an argentine name. Dujko?

Pictures

Why were the pictures of Tesla and Andric taken off? Taken off without explaining?

if Tesla is a Serb, than Andric is a Croat

Andric was an Ethnic Croat, he was more Croatian than Tesla was Serbian

and Nikola Tesla was a Native Croatian

Second generation Europeans in the USA, like many of you on these boards, see themselves as Americans, Tesla was a fourth or fifth generation Croat


NBA Hall of Famers

Lapchick - Mihalik - Havlicek - Gulick --- These players could be of Croatian descent...

I have read on some websites that Pete Maravich was of Croatian descent... does anyone know for sure?

rename?!

Fucking hell. This was moved from List of Croatians to List of Croats without explanation on Talk by this anonymous edit which is also an improper move (losing page history). Of all the lame ass crap I've seen, the kind which hurts the most is the one ignored for months... --Joy 22:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/62.203.50.120 - it shows just those two edits. I simply can't believe that this didn't catch the attention of an administrator. --Joy 22:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

poll: list of Croats or list of Croatians?

Let's have a poll - should we maintain a list of Croats (only ethnic Croats) or a list of Croatians (both ethnic Croats and other people from Croatia)? Or both? Or none?! --Joy 22:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

List of Croatians

  • please add your vote below this line and sign it with ~~~~

Both should on the list, what are u kidding me, why take off fifth generation Croats off the list? what kind of a joke is that? I suggest then that u take off all the immigrants to the US (Schwarzenegger, etc.) and sons of immigrants (Pacino, etc.) from the American list.

List of Croats

  • please add your vote below this line and sign it with ~~~~

Both lists separately

  • please add your vote below this line and sign it with ~~~~

Neither list

  • please add your vote below this line and sign it with ~~~~


Fun Facts *TRIVIA* Small-Time Croatian Celebrities

Small-time actors shouldn't be on the main list, but add them here!!!

  • Josip Elic - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest - Plays Bancici, one of the mental patients in the asylum
  • Marietta Marich - The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (2003 remake and 2006 prequel (not yet released)) Plays Luda Mae (fat woman in trailer)
  • Helen Vidovich - Miss Pennsylvania 1954
  • Martha Viducich - Miss Oregon 1980
  • Tanya Pogatchnik - Miss Montana 1996??? (Slovenian?)
  • Angela Janich - Miss Montana 1995
  • Mitriann Popovich - Miss Montana 1972
  • Jennifer Mikelinich - Miss New York 1983???

THESE TWO I DUNNO TO WHICH ETHNIC GROUP THEY BELONG TO

  • Ladija Vera Manic - Miss International 1975 (Yugoslavia)
  • Dzejla Glavovic - Miss Earth 2002 (Bosnia-Herzogvina - later dethroned)

Deal or No Deal contestant Susan? Batkovic from Ohio was on Friday 28 April and will be back Monday

WHO'S DELETING THE MOST WELL-KNOWN AMERICAN-CROATS?

SOMEONE IS TAKING THEM OFF THE LIST, WHO IS AND WHY?

WHO'S THE FRUSTRATED, ARROGANT SERB DELETING THEM?

I am the frustrated, arrogant serb (yeah right) deleting them, and I will keep deleting them as soon as I'm clear in not breaking 3RR. You can't put a definition at the top of this list. It's a break of Misplaced Pages's No Original Research policies. You can't decide who is Croatian or not - you can only list people who reliable sources have described as Croatian. Croatian nationals make sense. You can't list Americans who have Croatian grandparents - that's what the Croatian-American list is for. Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There, I've removed the definition. Please do not include people in this list who are not actually Croatians. If we have a list called "List of Croatians", then the people on it must actually be Croatians, not people of other nationalities who are of Croatian descent. Otherwise you're violating the Original Research policy Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Then go on the Italian list, and delete Pacino, and the rest of them, if you're not a Serb.Also, why are you only deleting the most known American-Croats???What's that about?John Malkovich has refered to himself as Croat many times, and as far as I know he currently lives in Croatia.
Al Pacino isn't on List of Italians. Neither are any Americans. Pacino is on List of Italian-Americans, however, and that's where he belongs, just as Malkovich is on List of Croatian-Americans. Every list has to obide by Misplaced Pages policy. Malkovich currently lives in Croatia? Is he a Crotian citizen? If yes, then he should be on this list, but you'll have to give a source to prove that he is. Mad Jack O'Lantern 17:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
my ethnic background is irrelevant, although I can freely say that I probably have never met either a Croatian or a Serb in my life, short of watching John Malkovich in Art School Confidential last week. I've been formatting and correcting a large number of these kind of lists during the past week. This is neither the first, nor the last - by the time I'm done all of these lists should be in line with Misplaced Pages's policies, which they have to be. If Malkovich described himself as "Croatian" then it does fit the Verifibiality policies with this title, however, do you have a reliable source that he described himself as that? If yes, we can put him up here with that source. Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Alicia Keys isn't on the "Italian" list, though she may well be on the Italian-Americans list. I've done part of that list and will finish off soon. I know what I said about Malkovich, but technically if a reliable source (including of course himself) has described him as "Croatian" (without the American part) then he could be included, although it's a bit iffy. Yes, please give me the link for Malkovich and I will restore him myself if it's a good source. Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually you were right, Keys was on it. But I removed her. Looks like that page may also need my attention. Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
To answer your question (even though you just deleted it) - Well, the No Original Research policy. It says "Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position." Putting a person on a "List of Croatians" is saying that they are "Croatian". Putting a person who has never been described as being "Croatian" by a reliable source (as opposed to "of Croatian descent" or "Croatian-American") on such a list is original research - calling a person "a Croatian" who has never been called such by anyone except Misplaced Pages. Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Like I said, again, if a person is described as a "Gypsy" or "Roma", which they often are, then they can be on that list. Same thing for here. Anyway, I think we may create a page called "List of Croatian diaspora", that would help with all the other people who haven't been described as just "Croatian". Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what it makes you, there is no official definition or rule. You could say that "Person A" is a "Croatian" because of this and this, and I can say they aren't a "Croatian" because of that and that. That's why Wikipedians can't decide these things. We just report what reliable sources have said about these people - if they called them "Croatian", then we can call them that too. But if they didn't - we don't have the authority to make that call. Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I deleted my previous posts because I was rude. We were just having fun adding all the famous Croats of the world to this list.

That's ok, apology accepted (if that was one). I am in the process of creating the page Croatian diaspora. Feel free to add the Croatians of the world, so to speak, there. Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are u taking out only the popular names?

Here are some solutions to the problem.
List of Croatians is created for all that are citizens of Croatia (not necessarily Croats).
List of Croats contains Croats by origin and by declaring (not necessarily citizens of Croatia). And that's it. Malkovich is Croat, but not Croatian. Milan Đukić (leading Serb politician in Croatia) is a Croatian, but not Croat.
Regarding origin, person can have origin from more than one nationality. It shouldn't be the problem if person has "more origins".
But Jack O'Lantern, what about the case when noone makes a webpage about certain person, but it is known among Croats (in certain Croat family) that certain person is their relative/Croat? Or when only the online phonebook can be the argument? Kubura 11:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense

Just wanted to add a few remarks:

The list as given does not have a sigle common criterion applicable to all people listed here:

  • In the whole its history and existence, Dubrovnik/Ragusa never was a part of any Croatia, nor Ragusans ever counted themselves as Croats. So, Drzic, Gundulic, Boscovic (father Serb, mother Italian) are definitely not Croats--Purger 15:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Marin Držić and Ivan Gundulić were one of the most famous croatian writers. Gundulic is one of the few writers most responsible for stnadardisation of Croatian language. Of course, some greater Serbian ideologers believe that Croatia should be limited only to territory visible from the top of Zagreb cathedral, but that is their problem. Even user HRE (from Serbia), which has been accuses of spreading serbian propaganda calls him famous Croatian writer. Your ideas are quite extreme, but, on the other hand, we knew that before. --Ante Perkovic 13:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Today's idea of Croatdom was developed in the second half of nineteen century and it is meaningless to extend this idea back to the past, on the territories which never were part of any Croatia (Istria, Ragusa), nor people who lived in the past on these territories - ever counted themselves as Croats. Applying such nonsense, someone could claim that Archimedes was an Italian, Tales - a Turk, Ptolemay - an Arab, even though that all three were Greeks.--Purger 15:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Archimedes, Tales, Ptolemay... if you can find Croats that are contemporary with these people, please remove them. Otherwise, don't bring them here to prove the point because it looks like manipulation with the facts. Sneaky!. --Ante Perkovic 13:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
  • On the other hand, putting Tesla (the Serb) on the same list with Pavelic (Nazi war criminal who organized and conducted extermination of the Serbs in so-called Independet State of Croatia), or Andric (world renown writer and the Serb) who publicly refused to be marked as Croat along with Mile Budak (an Ustashe, Nazi war criminal, amateur as a writer) - is even immoral. --Purger 15:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Andric was born Croat, and later choose not to declare himself as Croat. I don't think someone may just stop being Croat by free will. It's like I refused to be declared as human because I don't want to be the same species like some people I don't like. --Ante Perkovic
Andric's etnic/national background was his personal matter - as it is the case among civilised people. Therefore, what he had said about himself, that must be accepted as is - without any discussion, check, or approval. What he was at his birth - that might be claimed only by his parents which are dead long ago. Nothing is recorded, nothing is known. As per Andric's close friends and contemporaries:
      • William H. McNeill, the world renown historian and the Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Chicago: They (Ivo and his mother) went to live with her parents in Visegrad ... The family was Orthodox Christian, i.e. Serb;
      • Lovett F. Edwards, the translator of Andric's books: Dr Ivo Andric is himself a Serb and a Bosnian.
All the above comes from the introduction and the foreword of The Bridge on the Drina, The University of Chicago Press, 1977--Purger 23:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • You can't really expect that everybody on the list will have positive view on everybody else on the list. Andric's opinion on Pavelic and Budak is irrelevant here. --Ante Perkovic 13:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Charlie Chaplin

Charlie Chaplin - born as Karlo Čapljinac, actor, film director and producer (Winner of 1 Oscar Award)

Truly hilarious...

If Tesla was a Serb, Andric was a Croat

Serbs want both.

Nope - Andric said he was not a Croat:


When Krleza attempted to allign Ivo with Croats - Ivo responded this way
Enes Cengic; "Krleza post mortem", I-III. Svjetlost, Sarajevo, 1990. 2. part, pages 171-172
" Medjutim, s tekstom o Andricu za staru Enciklopediju stvari su tekle ovako: Tekst je napisao Milan Bogdanovic i poslao ga meni na imprimatur, kao biva, da li ga primam ili ne. Kao ni mnoge druge tekstove, vjerovali vi sad meni ili ne ... ja tekst o Andricu nisam citao. Mislio sam: Neka pise sto hoce, tako cemo to i objaviti. Ionako je bilo iznad moje moci da tu ista diram i ispravljam. Mjesec ili ne znam koliko nakon sto mi je poslao tekst, primim od Milana pismo u kojem mi kaze da je kopiju teksta dao Ivi Andricu na uvid te da on moli da budem ljubazan i da u tekstu nesto izmijenim, a to je:
Ivo Andric, rodjen u Travniku 10.10.1892. godine, hrvatskog porijekla, zavrsio skole itd.... Moli me da brisem da je hrvatskog porijekla. Na to odgovaram Bogdanovicu (oprostite sto citiram):
Dragi moj Milane,
Pozdravi Ivu Andrica u moje ime, veoma srdacno,i poruci mu, ako mozes, da mu ja jebem hrvatsku majku, brisat cu da je hrvatskog porijekla."
Shortly, Milan Bogdanovic wrote a text of Andric's biography, presented a copy of this text to Andric. Andric asked Bogdanovic to remove the note saying that he (Ivo) was a man of Croatian lineage.
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