Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by LlywelynII (talk | contribs) at 13:01, 1 November 2013 (sign). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Shoutbox sidebar New User Talk Page Started 27 May 2013

(all archives are on the View history tab. They are not being archived a second time, to save bandwidth. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC))

May 2013

Henricus

Please note that I reverted your edit. Currently, Henricus is on the NRHP list for Henrico county but not for Chesterfield county. I have no knowledge of the subject, but we should be consistent. If it is in Chesterfield county, it should also be on the Chesterfield county NRHP list.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:35, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I see that you reverted me again. Then please correct the lists.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

There's no doubt about it, Henricus is still in Chesterfield County, and any sources saying it is in Henrico County are erroneous. Or perhaps dated older than 1749. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:38, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Taken to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#Henricus.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

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discussion alert

Hi Til, Knowing your interest in dealing with bias on WP, I thought you might like to know about a discussion currently going on at Talk:Humiliation of Christ, where the issue revolves around how widely a doctrine is held within the "Protestant" tradition. The claim is that it encompasses all of Protestantism, while the question is asked if or how far it goes beyond just Calvinism, the possible bias then being whether or not the claim is overreaching. I for one would like to see a wider engagement among interested editors. If you'd like to watch or participate, I would welcome it. Thanks, Evenssteven (talk) 17:39, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/International Council of 13 Indigenous Grandmothers

Hi there. Take a look at my two sets of arguments - the first holistic and subjective, and the second (post scriptum) more rationalist and objective. At Misplaced Pages, most editors have formed a strong consensus that published sources, such as books and newspapers, matter more than the Old Wisdom, which I think is the whole point of the Grandmother's movement. However, we must work with what we have. Good luck! Bearian (talk) 17:20, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Socking

You could do me a favor. I feel like I'm chasing my tail with all the blocks I'm handing out. And I'm recovering today from being ill yesterday, so I'm not at my best, whatever that is. Could you give me the lowest and highest IP addresses in each range so I can calculate what would happen if the two ranges were blocked? Of course, they may then edit outside the ranges, but at least it would be a start. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:03, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, and I really appreciate someone with tools to fight this disruption. I haven't seen things this exhausting for quite a while, this one person in Bosnia has taken up most of my editing day, plus they think I am Kurdish! Several of the IP addresses are at the SPI page Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Shaushka and I will try to add the newer ones to that page. Cheers, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 21:07, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Lullubi

How does Lullubi fits under category History of Azerbaijan? --HistorNE (talk) 18:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Reverting sockpuppet edits

Please note that until an SPI confirms that HistorNE is User:Shuashka, you should not be removing his contributions to article talk pages. Furthermore, you should be reverting his article edits only if they are themselves incorrect. We are allowed to revert indefinitely blocked editors simply because they are made by said editor, but we have to be very certain. Looking at their histories, HistorNE and Shuashka may well be different people--they share a certain common set of interests, but the editing style does not appear to be identical. I guess what I'm saying is that you have to be careful when reverting someone as a sockpuppet, unless the connection is absolutely crystal clear. On the SPI, please provide specific diffs from Shuashka and diffs from the IPs/HistorNE that show that they are the same person; that's the fastest way to end this if it is, in fact true. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:29, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

HistorNE has already admitted that he is the IP-hopping address in the SPI case that was blocked for 48 hours, whose behavior is problematic enough standing alone. I just added some diffs a couple minutes ago as evidence he is the same as Shaushka. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 22:33, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, he admitted to being the range of IPs, but so far, no one has confirmed/agreed that all of that links back to Shaushka. The problem is that if it's not the same person, and you keep reverting the edits, then the person has no way to discuss the matter. At this point, both of you need to discuss on Talk: Lullubi about what cats should and shouldn't be there (though the burden is on HistorNE to show that a change is beneficial). Qwyrxian (talk) 23:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I reverted him on Lullubi because I have been following the edit wars by the same users as they proceed from each page to the next in turn as it gets locked down, and I have little doubt it is an indef-blocked user - not because I disagree with the cats and other insignificant changes he is making. But now I see that it is not safe to go past 3RR until somebody gets around to confirming that yes, this is a sock puppet. Gotta love it. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

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New SPI

I've opened a new SPI at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Imorthodox23 regarding a user you've previously tagged. If you have any other evidence, it may be useful. Regards, CMD (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

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Thank you

Thank you!, I'll take up that reccomendation!!! Nigerien not Nigerian (talk) 16:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Misc. Exodus questions

I don't know if you'd be interested, but I asked something of what I was wondering about at I don't have an answer, but I have a suspicion some people haven't been asking the right questions... Wnt (talk) 05:08, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

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WP: Pointy - Your removal of "tepid" in relation to Beatles song "Ob Li Da Do Do"

I wouldn't want you to think I disliked The Beatles so I thought I'd let you know I am a musician and can play these Beatles songs which I do like:

Don't Let Me Down. Learnt by me by playing along to the roof top concert thingy.

Help

Twist and Shout (including the tasty riff. Learnt from the recording rather than out of a book - makes a difference doing it that way)

She Loves You

A Day In The Life

and there are some others I learnt.

But I swear that I will never learn Ob Li Doo Doo. I must come across as anti-Beatles but that isn't the case - just don't believe that song should be in the reggae article regardless of what that idiot author Chen wrote in his book and his false claim it was an early rock-reggae song and which provides the so-called ref (lie) - which now means that I'll never be able to remove its destructiveness to the reggae article and not to mention its hijacking of the reggae article to promote the Beatles. Oh well.

Article equality is not possible until we judge a book not by its cover but by the self-serving ego its author. Still nice to see you are still doing your thing even if I do question your motives in this case. Anyway no one is for this mortal coil forever and I'm going to leave instructions with my friend's daughter that when we are all dead that she is to remove the so-called reggae influenced song, lol

Sluffs (talk) 14:32, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not really that passionate for or against that song or the Beatles, I try to look at it objectively through WP:VER. However, any "reggae" that came out in the year 1968, the first year there was such a thing, would have to be described as "early reggae" - right? Surprisingly enough, and contrary to popular assumption, there were no songs explicitly associating reggae with the Rastafari movement for a couple of years after that. Those first early songs from 1968 were about things that might be considered "slack" from the later roots perspective. Listen to some earliest reggae songs from 1968 mentioned in the article - Nanny Goat, Long Shot Bust Me Bet, and some US stars like Johnny Nash were also quick to get in on this sound with songs like his Hold Me Tight... Listen to all those songs I just named, and "Ob-la-di" doesn't really sound too musically different from other early reggae that came out in 1968. But all of these songs are a far cry from later reggae, or today's reggae. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:12, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

The Beatles issue was really a direct result of other editors and admin suddenly taking an interest in who was doing what to the reggae articles. It was admin Michig who said "welcome" when I first joined in 2009 and expressed his satisfaction that someone was taking an interest in the older reggae articles (I think U-Roy was the first article I edited). The reason I went to the Beatles article was because Michig reverted my edits which had removed the Emporio and Laserlight releases from the Dekker discogarphy. I pride myself on reading inbetween the lines and I imagine that Dekker didn't get any publishing royalties from his early hits and was relying on the royalties from the labels mentioned who also didn't have access to his early hits and therefore were releasing newer material and I believe Michig had also come to the same conclusion. I have stated before that I couldn't care less about the financial rewards or lack of rewards for any artist. Artists have a main body of work that they are known for and all the rest is extraneous. All main namespace articles for any subject should only include the work that established the subject and all extraneous work should be secondary (as in another article namespace is created) or excluded.

I used his criteria (as set down by his reversion of my Dekker edits) when I went to the Beatles article and was told by the Beatles editors that if I wanted to include Pinky and Perky's version of the Yellow Submarine then I should create a new article or find somewhere else to place the release(s) as the Beatles main namespace was out of bounds. This proved to me that once again that some articles are protected by editors and admin against budget releases and false information yet the reggae articles are not. I always remind my West Indian friends that their slave ancestors had no choice and that caucasian people are the ones who decided that. So I'm not surprised on a caucasian majority site that this is still the case. Freedom for colored people is more than a law saying you are free and equal. It must always be confirmed in one's own heart by action that is not subject to external restriction or pressure to conform to an alien mode of behavior by those who are not colored. This is why I always say openly my favorite food is curry. Never will anyone make me ashamed of that. Pungent food it may be but it tastes great me.

I'm a lone voice fighting for the right to create quality articles for reggae, the blues and other related colored articles. I am actually determined that if by example I show that it is possible to create quality reggae, Indian, African, hip hop, etc, articles then other colored editors will join the site and help me. Though at the moment all I'm getting locally (yes people where I live watch what I do - caucasian and colored) is Asian shop-keepers looking at me with eyes that say "don't cause trouble with white people because we have a good relationship with them". To which I stare back at them with a "trust me I would punch you on the nose for racism and stupidity as readily as I would a caucasian person". With the local caucasian people some have actually said "You're not coming back" (as in goodbye you) and others have said "we throw stuff out we don't want" (meaning "because you are a colored man that doesn't behave and know your place therefore we are going to throw you out with the rubbish")

Still enough talking to you my German joker; not that you are German - though your are probably someone intelligent who knows what your username represents. I've actually been to a Strauss concert where the LPO played Til Eulensiegel and I've read Goethe's Faust. But enough bragging that I finished "On The Road" in one day and that I read in a year what others read in a lifetime and its time to venture off to do some real work which considering that I can actually touch type at a good speed without having to look at the keyboard makes me a stupid idiot who is working on an encyclopedia for absolutely nothing. Now that is proof of lack of intelligence. lol

If you really want to strike a blow for equality and freedom then let me remove that Beatles song from the reggae article. But I know the real reason why you won't and it isn't because of WP:Pointy.

Sluffs (talk) 21:32, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I see my race as the human race, and as I feel the inside of the cup is more important than the outside, I don't see myself as really having any color (or altrnatively, all colors)... But I will confide with you that I had noticed something similar to what you are complaining of with a few of the editors here, when I chose the id of Til Eulenspiegel... I thought if this world is going to be much like the 13th century Holy Roman Empire, then who, in this world, would I be? Now you are the first person to get that much explanation from me. I have never edited much in the Beatles area and don't know all the stories there, but I'm still not entirely clear yet on how or why removing Ob-la-di from the reggae article is striking a blow for freedom and equality? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 21:45, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Because you seek power over other editors. Wishing to control their behavior by removing their legitimate edits. Because you won't say which country you're from or your real name. Which makes you a coward and someone who should not really be here. You could be Jewish rasta or a German nazi but we will never know will we because like most cowards you hide behind anonymity. Go to my user page and you'll see I'm from the UK and that I'm mixed race and I set out my aims and some life experiences to help other editors understand where I'm coming from. You don't because like a coward you wish to influence and control others without extending to them the same rights you have taken for yourself. My real name is on a link at the bottom of my user page. A coward you are - a coward you will remain. You are the opposite of everything this encyclopedia presently represents and what it may potentially become. Never call yourself a member of the human race until you find the courage to declare who you are to the rest of the human race.

Sluffs (talk) 21:59, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that's pretty harsh! I thought we were having a friendly conversation here... Many users here "play their cards close to their chest", and being "subtle" or "discreet" or trying to remain neutral is generally not seen as a bad thing... In fact, when I first came to wikipedia in the early days, it was a requirement. They were very strict about what you could put on your userpage. They didn't want anyone declaring any allegiances. Checking all the resistance and objections to the idea of permitting "userboxes" for anything other than a language at first should show you what happened... It all got pushed against and broken down by people who can't help but declare their allegiances, who can't even imagine not declaring their allegiances. To me, it's like we're working on an encyclopedia like the Encyclopedia Britannica contributors, we're all ostensibly on the same team and taking a scholarly stance requires a degree of impartiality. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 22:12, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, if I were a German Nazi, do you think I would be a bureaucrat with community trust at the Amharic wikipedia project? የማይመስል ወሬ ነው ይኸው! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 22:46, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Anonymity is not an option in neutrality. It is anathema to neutrality. Any user that practices anonymity on Misplaced Pages and then declares neutrality is denying other contributors their right to judge that claim. Cowards hide in the shadows and neutrality is about light. Other editors are at a disadvantage when you don't say which country you are from. You are then denying them the right to prove your edits or reversion of their edits are done without cultural bias. There are only two reason that an editor would lie or deny the truth of their country of origin to other editors. One is that they wish to exercise power over those who nationality or cultural bias is visible and who's nationality or culture they may object to. You can replace nationality and culture with a whole range of other words like: color, religion, political beliefs, gender, etc. Secondly an editor who chooses the cowardice of anonymity under some misguided self-delusion that the action constitutes neutrality is lying to everyone and shouldn't claim that right. Let me do that edit on the Beatles because it has a cultural bias - Chen who provided the details was biased in his writing towards linking that Beatles song to Reggae. I will create a separate article called "The Beatles Reggae Songs" and I will write it myself. Be smart and let me undo the "quality" issue (basically this is the main namespace for reggae - how many times do I have to say it) and like The Beatles main namespace should be given the same level of protection as far as to what is included. I could write a decent article on Reggae once the extraneous tenuously related music is removed to a different namespace. Oh no. That's right - this is just a reggae article - a music that is so limited and created by a bunch of simple people who had a little mess around with some rhythms and invented a temporary splash in the caucasian charts during the 1960s and 1970s. Reggae is not a dead music - people in the West Indies still create music though looking at the Reggae article you wouldn't think so. So much real reggae can be included in the article. Its the real reggae music (iWayne, Morgan Heritage, Beres Hammond, Lady Saw, etc) and what it encapsulates that is missing from this article; all for the preference of a bunch of people who want to pretend that Eric Clapton made Bob Marley into a world wide phenomena and that Desmond Dekker owes his career to the opening line of that bloody song "Desmond had a barrow in the market place" - just thought I'd get everyone singing that - hows it feel. Annoying hey! Imagine how it feels to any West Indian who goes to the bloody reggae article to read about their bloody country's music.

Stop being an anonymous coward - tell us truly who you are and where you are from then I can judge (and everyone else that you've been enforcing your so called neutrality upon for 6 years) your cultural bias (which is in everyone) and your country of origin (no one has been born in space yet). Then let me do that edit because I've told who I am and where I come from and that I grew up with my rum drinking; chicken and rice eating bloody West Indian friends. I've also told you that I know a little bit about reggae and though I am not an expert I do have the ability to turn reggae articles from low quality to high quality. I offer as my proof the edit history of the Ernest Ranglin article and the Prince Buster article. Now let me do the reggae article and if you want to enforce a Misplaced Pages policy upon me then know that I don't accept the validity of enforcement from any anonymous entity including God. So sling yer hook and let me turn the reggae article around. I've got enough on my plate locally with every thing I say here being scrutinized by a bored but interested public whose lives and names are a mystery to me but at least I know their country of origin.

Before I go: "Desmond had a barrow in the market place" how about that for a great piece of reggae scholarship and impartiality. lol

Sluffs (talk) 00:37, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Religion is private, as a certain Famous Person once said. Colour doesn't matter to me as I already explained and for our purposes here shouldn't matter to anyone in my opinion. A tribe is very different from a colour, it involves more cultural aspects that are on the inside of the person, not the outside, people of the same tribe or language can be of different hues, so I have no problem with anyone self-identifying with a particular tribe if they want. I have indicated what languages I speak, which is all wikimedia ever wanted us contributors to reveal about ourselves in the first place. Please do not press me further to reveal personal or private details about myself without reading WP:OUTING. (It is a blockable offense, I have seen people blocked for doing the same and would hate to see you blocked for it).

As for the "Beatles reggae" song, wow are you ever obsessed with it. The main reason reggae doesn't have the material you want to see on modern artists, is probably just because nobody has added it yet. Nothing should stop you from adding it, and I do believe you may just be the best qualified editor to do so. (I'm most familiar with 80s reggae myself) So by all means, go right ahead and add something good - I'd love to see it. And since I don't feel quite as strongly passionate about the Beatles song as you do, I'll say go ahead and remove it, if you feel that strongly about it - but it is still taking away information about how quickly Jamaican reggae spawned big-name imitators in other countries after it was invented, so someone else could possibly object. I don't honestly know what point the Beatles were trying to make with the song, most likely they were trying to cash in on any fad that seemed "hip", and note that the Mothers of Invention essentially made this point with their "answer album" to Sgt Peppers entitled We're Only In It For The Money (heavy album btw)... Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Desmond Dekker at that particular time was the main competitor with the Beatles on the British charts. Everyone seems to agree that the weird line about 'Desmond' is some kind of reference to that situation, but I'm not sure if anyone knows precisely what it means or what they were tripping on when it was written! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:51, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Smile act of randomness

Hello Til Eulenspiegel, Eduemoni has given you a shining smiling star! You see, these things promote WikiLove and hopefully this has made your day better. Spread the Shining Smiling Star whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or someone putting up with some stick at this time. Enjoy! Eduemoni 04:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Those 75. IPs

Socks of Ararat arev, you may recall Frost778 (talk · contribs) was blocked as a sock of his and for edit warring with 75. Ips. Dougweller (talk) 10:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Someone suggested earlier that it was he... I wasn't completely sure, because the earlier "Frost" modus operandi IIRC seemed to be endless useless warring over positioning of templates and aesthetic things, whereas this user's m.o. seemed more like debating historical points and slightly more open to discussion (but they still seem to have trouble learning how to find sources that actually mention the article topics!) But this could still be the same person who is just trying to be generally troublesome on different levels. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:21, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

That's often the case. The IP is in fact more obvious a sock. You'll also find puppetmasters using socks to war with each other at times. Anyway, as you may have noticed, a range block has also been imposed, and I'm finding more sources for Nairi. Dougweller (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Miss Bono 17:02, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

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Can I get a chance for a Effing reference?

Can I get a chance for a Effing reference? Just undid, as I am trying to provide the refs! --J. D. Redding 16:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I though being tagged for a reference since 2010 was enough to remove it, and the other unreferenced sentence, I waited 24 minutes after you re-added it without a reference, before re-removing it. But I will probably wait until you are done editing the article before doing anything else to it. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Just come in to improve it (Not an article that is highly visited by me); takes a bit of time to c.e./write . Removing info in generally not good, unless patent nonsense.

And why did you remove the associated theory? 'Cause it's marxist? Just cause of the tag? Very odd. --J. D. Redding 17:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Just because of the tag, showing it was unreferenced since 2010. I had no idea it was Marxist. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

For catching my spelling error on "disambiguation." -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Sticky

There we go again, this is not a sockpuppet or whatever i use this user in arabic wiki while "kendite" was my old user name and i don't use it in arabic wiki.. as for Hadramout, i don't know what the Sultanate has to do with any ancient history not mention the lies in the rest of the article like the ghassanids migration from there!--يوسف حسين (talk) 15:04, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Nineveh

Hi, regarding your revert, disputed territories include those inhabited by non-Arabs in general and not only Kurds. Secondly the ruins of Nineveh lie in the Mosul District which is not disputed. Don't forget that Nineveh flourished and died centuries before there was Kurdish or Kurdistan.--Kathovo talk 16:47, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

"Nineveh flourished and died centuries before there was Kurdish or Kurdistan" - But the article Kurdish people states that they have basically always lived in those same hills and mountains since time immemorial, even if their name was spelled different or if they had several names at the same time. But contradicting Kurdish people, I keep hearing from people like you that Kurds moved into the region recently. So according to you, when exactly did they move in and where did they move from? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:56, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

According to Morony's Iraq After the Muslim Conquest pp 265-266 Kurds only formed a small minority along the eastern fringes of modern Iraq during the late Sassanid period. Their main concentration after the Islamic conquests were in Jibal province (EOI "Djibal") including western Media and southern Azerbaijan. From what I understand Kurds started moving westwards simultaneously with the Turks as their emirates started to appear in eastern Anatolia from the 10th century in the then predominantly Christian cities of Diyarbakir, Ani, Mardin etc. since Kurdish and Turkish toponyms were absent there previously. On the specific region of Nineveh you can find here a fairly detailed account of Yazidi settlement in the 13th century.--Kathovo talk 17:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

So that's not long enough ago to justify including the Kurdish form of "Nineveh" in the lede? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:16, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I find the whole discussion trivial, but for the sake of argument Nineveh was never inhabited by Kurds in its history, Closest major Kurdish settlements are in Kalak and Sheikhan some 50Km from Mosul. Anyway if it was up to me I would have removed Turkish and Latin as well.--Kathovo talk 13:15, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Category reverts

Hey Til, I have no idea why you reverted my removal of Category:18th-century Indigenous painters of the Americas from Category:18th-century Native Americans, etc. The descriptions clear state what these categories contain. The Native American cats are for indigenous peoples of the United States, so the "Indigenous painters of the Americas" would not be a subcat of a Native American cat, since the overwhelming majority of individuals in the "Indigenous painters" cats are not from the United States. -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

There is nothing whatsoever in the term "Native American" that ties it to the United States. Native People of North and South America are Native American, and this is actually a preferable term to "Indigenous" which has racist connotations, especially outside the US, as explained in Native American name controversy. I know plenty of Natives who bristle at the term "indigenous", have never heard any complaint about "native" and that is the preferred term. Please stop making these unilateral changes to the existing cats without wider discussion. There is no more suitable category to list the Painters by century as Native Americans. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:58, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

As can be seen from Category:16th-century Native Americans in particular, these categories are not exclusive to US territory, there was not even any such thing at that time anyway. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:11, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

There has been so much discussion on this topic here at Misplaced Pages, it beggars the imagination. But, if you want, let's take the conversation to Category talk:Indigenous painters of the Americas. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Mesopotamia and Kuwait

Various sources include Kuwait as part of Mesopotamia, for example:

• The World and the Word: An Introduction to the Old Testament

• Fundamentals of Soil Ecology

Quote: The Mesopotamian region encompasses present-day Iraq and Kuwait.

• Southern Mesopotamia During the Bronze Age

• Middle East, Western Asia, and Northern Africa

• Earth

• Alleles and Genotypes Among Old Ethnic Groups in Mesopotamia to the Oxus Region

• Who Were The Babylonians?

..the region of southern Mesopotamia in what is today southern Iraq, Kuwait, and parts of western Iran.

Am I allowed to add Kuwait to the Mesopotamia page? Agrso (talk) 09:21, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

You should be able to mention briefly in the appropriate subsection that the expanded definition of "Mesopotamia" has included Kuwait more recently. However, what you were doing is adding to the lede paragraph, faulty information that "Mesopotamia" originally meant Kuwait and later came to mean the land lying between the Tigris and Euphrates, which is chronologically backwards. And you were using and improper synthesis of sources to argue this. Also the proper place to discuss this with all editors interested in Mesopotamia would be Talk:Mesopotamia, not here. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 12:37, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. Agrso talk 02:08, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

Just wanted to say thanks for your post at the Hogan's Hero's thread at the humanities desk. It was more salient than any of the other ones there and it brought a smile to my day. Around here that is always a nice thing so thanks again and cheers. MarnetteD | Talk 19:51, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

You forgot to say F-Troop and M*A*S*H weren't realistic or accurate shows either! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

OK the F-Troop mention makes me laugh out loud :-D I'm so old I watched that comedy in its original airings. Larry Storch could be HIlarious. Happy editing whenever possible. MarnetteD | Talk 00:21, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

August 2013

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Maxximiliann

You may want to look at the ANI discussion on this editor. Dougweller (talk) 05:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Rugby

Hi Til Eulenspiegel. A user has been adding original research and soapboxing to Rugby union in Ethiopia, some of it quite jingoistic. This was explained to him here, a discussion which the user has been repeatedly linked to yet refused to engage in. He has instead resorted to knee-jerk reverting and posting misleading tags in userspace. As one of the more active contributors on WikiProject Ethiopia, would you mind taking a look when you have the time? Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:04, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Liburnians

I am astonished by your reversion, with the comment "not really an improvement". The pretentious link ethne redirects to Ethniu. You surely cannot think that the intended meaning? Moonraker (talk) 14:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

It should be "ethnon" in the singular, I don't know what sloppy grammarian wrote that in its present form. That should not link to Ethniu, but the changes overall were not helpful, inserting a crosshatch before the section header messes up the format, and changing "AD 634" which complies with standard format, to "the year 634" which doesn't, there were no real improvements here. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you, of course, about the stray #, which was a typo and needed to be undone. However, "ethnon" (which does not have an article at ethnon) would be just as pretentious, and I see you have not undone your addition of a link to Ethniu. What correction do you intend? Moonraker (talk) 14:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

"Ethnon" may be considered "erudite" being a Greek concept, but I like it for the time period concerned as perhaps the most accurate concept - "ethnic group" is a more modern concept that goes with modern times when ethnicities are all mixed together and more hybridized, and doesn't do as well as "ethnon" to bring out the picture of intertribal relations among more homogenous peoples ca 200 BC, that are at once ethnic groups, nations, and societies to themselves. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

On Intef I and Mentuhotep I

I just saw your correction to the article on Intef I and I believe that it runs in contradiction to what is reported in Darell Baker's "Encyclopedia of the Pharaohs". To be more precise, D. Baker indicates the following in the article concerning Mentuhotep I, the direct predecessor of Intef I (I quote): "Mentuhotep was almost certainly master of no more than the Theban nome and the three nomes from Thebes south to the border with Nubia at Elephantine. His power to the north stopped at the border to the Coptite nome". Now this means that Mentuhotep I had triumphed over Ankhtifi (or his successor) during his own reign since Ankhtifi controlled the nome of Nekhen, south of Thebes. This also means that Intef I ruled over these territories when he accessed to the throne and that the essential of the conflict at the time of his reign took place not with Ankhtifi to the south but with the Coptite nomarch Tjauti to the north of Thebes. Intef I's successes over Tjauti brought the border to Abydos which was then bitterly fought for by Intef II and Mentuhotep II. Could you indicate me the sources claiming that Intef I waged war to the south of Thebes ? It seems that the stele of Tjauti and the Gebel Tjauti inscription support the view that Intef I waged war to the north and thus that the south was already under his control when he accessed the throne. Iry-Hor (talk) 21:31, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Most all sources I could find place Ankhtifi as a contemporary of pharaoh Intef I Sehertawy who opposed him, but they say Sehertawy managed to get those three nomes to the south by the end of his reign. Of course Sehertawy also campaigned to the north against Tjauty. Hardly any sources put Ankhtify in the reign of "Mentuhotep I" - for whom there is no definite tangible evidence or record of any kind, so I tend to agree with those who are skeptical from the lack of evidence that "Mentuhotep I" was an actual pharaoh, and not a later invention. Since I would like to hear from anyone on the subject, can this discussion be moved to Talk:Intef I? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 00:28, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I moved the discussion to the talk page of Intef I. See my answer there. Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I just replied on the talk page of Intef I and who greatly appreciate to have your opinion on the matter. Iry-Hor (talk) 18:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Not sure how useful any of that is

re: wer'e both editing, but the fact is there's a quandry.... what territory in what decade. Since two references are explicit in mentioning the Virginia Corridor, I stand corrected. // FrankB 21:19, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Re: My user page

Hello, no hard feelings. I hope this edit (made before I noticed your message) is alright. Graham87 02:20, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

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John Rolfe

Hi Til, I notice that you reverted my removal of an external link from John Rolfe (). I am somewhat at a loss as to why you found my explanation "rm WP:REFSPAM" inadequate - the link www.saberqureshi.com, which was inserted as a reference, leads to a SEO firm, and has nothing to do with John Rolfe at all. The editor who added the link has been adding saberqureshi.com references to several pages; in most cases there is some connection with the page content, but I really do not think that it is a reliable source at all, and in the case of this particular article, there isn't even anything about Rolfe on the page that is linked in the reference. There is a short, unsourced text about Rolfe on http://www.saberqureshi.com/flog.html - however, again there is no indication at all as to why this would be considered a reliable source for Misplaced Pages's purposes. I have posted to the talk page of the editor who has been inserting these links, and referred them to WP:RSN if they disagree about the usefulness of the reference, but I really feel that this is classic WP:REFSPAM. Cheers, --bonadea contributions talk 15:51, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

BLOND HAIR

The first sentence changed by you is strictly from 3 sources listed, and they all state in ALL of Asia, any ethnic group it many children and environmental factors

Mentioning ethnic groups and how they are lower or higher is irrelevant and not supported, because especially the two you mentioned are not the highest, this paragraph was just a summary it doesn't even mention northern Middle East or Israel, and that's what the first sentence you keep changing it back to is trying to lead people into thinking that only the mentioned ones are the highest

I did studies over this, and Nuristani and Kalash are the same, Kalash are a extension of them and so are so many other groups and it involves a lot of countries then just one, so mentioning the main group is enough, because the rest just obstructs the flow and the sentence is also not grammatically correct

The 10% of tajiks mentioned, the sources were checked and other sources contraindicate that one source, so its too risky to post a exact percentage

Also these groups of people that you added fit the description of sun exposure and malnourishment, that's why you only see it in children

Also saying blond hair can be found in any part of Asia doesnt mean they all have blond hair, it just means it can appear in any ethnic group or country

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nursingxmajor (talk • contribs) 05:19, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Er, did you actually just write that and say "not grammatically correct"?! The information you added about hippies in India may end up getting removed from the blond article also, if the reference doesn't actually make any point in relation to the article topic, blond hair; see WP:SYNTH... Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:27, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

it does mention it, because in old language, during British rule, they used words of appearance to describe people, and has quotes of peopleNursingxmajor (talk) 05:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I thought the hippies would have been like 20 years after British rule ended... I still don't follow your point. Does the reference supporting the fact that hippies were in India, actually say anything about blond hair? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I guess you're saying the refs do mention blond hair, right? No problem then. But I know for sure the British rule did not coincide with the hippie movement... Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:52, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

yeah hippies are separate from the British rule and mentioned in a different sentence, and i moved the sources where they actually belong, i usually tend to put them at the bottom of the paragraph where sources are usually placed, but i changed it, "grammatically " was done by autofix, that paragraph is not just about the British only the middle two sentences are

I have been studying Asian anthropology for a while, and like it mentions throughout the page in other sections as well malnourishment and sun exposure changes your hair to blond, which darkens as melanin in continuously deposited in skin, hair and eyes as the person ages and as they get nutrition, i am currently in the health field, the two groups that you listed fit this category perfectly, meanwhile the whole page is talking about genetics that cause blond hair. Nuristan is among the poorest in South Asia, i am very familiar with Pamiri, Nuristanis, and Kalash, so far they have shown no genes that cause blond hair or have come from outsiders (remember they said they were supposedly Greek or Illyrian and DNA testing proved they weren't, almost every test they have done turned out negative) so consider that, i can give your sources that mention hair color change with factors and about Nuristan state as of now and how malnourished their children are and the death tolls, its a hub spot for war scenes. For the past four years my focus has been northern South Asia, and all the groups that exist within. I want you to consider that and look into that before i change anything because i dont want to keep reverting info. that gets reverted back and forth nonstop. I have also come across sources like the first source of yours that are on a webpage and a random person interprets genetic studies, do you know how hard it is to interpret genetics? trust me there is never a exact percentage. Iv been looking at this page for 2 months, looking into sources ...etc before i ever changed anything i did consider adding people like Nuristanis or Tajiks or just sticking with the proven tracings and genetics that cause blond hair, because if we mention two groups with blond hair caused by environmental factors and no outsider links, might as well mention the rest, which will consist of almost all ethnic groups of Asia. The numbers in these groups are also not high enough in general to be concerned with and is a guessing game if the kid will end up with blond hair just like majority of Asian communities. Same amounts can be found in any community and in general if you notice this whole page is just hitting main points. Nursingxmajor (talk) 06:33, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Also the second source that states 10% of tajiks have blond hair, that book/source is old, the 10% came from Russians that occupied that region during the soviet war, and they have since migrated back, currently they make up less then 0.4% of Tajikstan. I will probably change that later, just read about it on Tajikstan where it is mentions it as well. I dont feel like removing other peoples sources, so look into that too before i do anything later on. This is also mentioned in the contraindicated sources i was talking about earlier (about the percent). For four years been studying Central/South Asia (anthropology in total 9-10 years) like crazy and can throw all this stuff your way like i been doing with every user wasting time. Nursingxmajor (talk) 06:56, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Violation of WP:Canvassing

Hard to see if you've been warned for canvassing before as you don't archive, but I'm pretty sure you've been warned at least once so you should know that your edit at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America was worded inappropriately. Of course you can delete it, but at least it will show up in your history. Dougweller (talk) 16:27, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Civility

Please remember to be civil when discussing topics. Your comment to Jason from nyc was ad hominem and uncalled for. Moreover, it was off-topic. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:46, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Please don't accuse me of ad hominem attacks when you cannot show where I have made any. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 00:57, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit

I made that edit due to some objections in this rfc. Would you mind if i moved the edit somewhere else in the article? I simply want to make it clear in the Jah article that rastafaris say that term in reference to God.. Pass a Method talk 14:55, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's necessitated. I'm not sure edits to an article can ever be necessitated by discussion on a second article without also discussing it on the first article. And actually they say "Jah" in reference to YHWH, to be more precisely accurate. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:03, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, would you mind if i added "Rastafaris say Jah in reference to YHWH" to the end of the "Bible and Rastafari usage" section? Pass a Method talk 15:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

That isn't incorrect, it just seems repetitive since there are already several sentences in the article that should make this clear. For instance the first sentence in that section - "Jah is often used as a shortened form of the reconstructed Tetragrammaton." - is also saying the same thing. Isn't it already clear enough? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:02, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

It is clear enough for me, but there are some myopic editors on wikipedia who deny that a sentence implies something unless it paraphrases their exact thoughts. As a solution, how about if we amend the first sentence in that section to read - "Jah is often said and used as a shortened form of the reconstructed Tetragrammaton." Thoughts? Pass a Method talk 16:25, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I suppose that would be harmless, but I still can't imagine who would need to be told that if a name is "used", it is obviously "said"...! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:35, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

hyphens

Hi Til, in my understanding it's grammatically correct to write either "newly-built" or "newly built", depending on the style guide of the publication you're writing for. In this case, Misplaced Pages's style guide calls for "newly" rather than "newly-". You can see the guideline on this at MOS:HYPHEN. In any case, though, I'm always glad to meet another editor interested in the grammatical minutiae. Cheers, and enjoy the day-- Khazar2 (talk) 18:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I have to disagree on this one. This seems to be one where the -ly + past participle compound needs a hyphen. Saying that Fort Henry in 1645 was "a newly-built fort" is not exactly the same nuance as saying it was "a newly built fort" (treating the phrase as an adverb modifying a participle). Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:29, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

As an adverb, what else could "newly" modify besides the adjective "built"? In any case, I won't personally revert it, but to overturn this policy, I think you're better off making your case at the talk page for MOS:HYPHEN. As you seem to feel strongly about it, you might consider marking the phrase with the "notatypo" template to avoid further AWB flagging. All best -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:17, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Newly doesn't exactly describe how it was built, actually everything is new when you build it. Newly-built should be treated as a single adjective as the hyphen signifies it was still newly-built at that time. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

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Generation Y page

Hi, could you tell us why you keep on adding this sentence to the Generation Y page: "Much as "Generation X" members are generally speaking, the children of "Baby Boomers", the phrase "Generation Y" alludes to a succession from parents who are "Generation X".

Just so you know -- a Gen Xer who is 40, 45 or 50 years could easily have a parent from the Silent generation (people over 70 yrs old today) and many do. Besides, the comment is original research according to Misplaced Pages policy.172.250.31.151 (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

This would be better discussed on the article talk page, as content disputes should concern all editors of the topic, not just me. This is the closest thing to a helpful or intelligible explanation in the entire article and the question should be why you keep summarily removing the new version of the sentence before it can be sourced. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 21:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

In order to reach consensus, the policy is to reach out to you first on your talk page. The sentence was removed because it's original research and it's against Misplaced Pages policy. See http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NOR

"Neutral point of view" is one of Misplaced Pages's three core content policies. The other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research".172.250.31.151 (talk) 00:01, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I took a look to see how much this could be sourced, but to my surprise I found just as many saying that Generation Y have Baby Boomer parents, and somewhat of an argument especially from younger "Generation Y" or "Millennials" who have Generation X parents. So I guess you're right about removing that sentence altogether. That's just one disparity between younger generation Y and older generation Y, another is that the oldest in that date range would now be 32 and the youngest 9, what exactly is it that they are supposed to have so much in common as a 'cohort'? Thanks for discussing, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 00:31, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, you're welcome. You're right that the younger Gen Y cohort is different from the older Gen Y cohort (i.e the oldest didn't have access to email in high school (in 1995, '96) and the youngest grew up from day one with mobile Internet). But other aspects of both cohorts are the same like growing up in zero-tolerance for crime/mischief environments in grade school and high school. 172.250.31.151 (talk) 02:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Matthew Bryden

Hi Til Eulenspiegel. Per appropriate notification, there's a discussion here concerning the Matthew Bryden page (the Horn of Africa political analyst) that you as one of the main contributors to the Ethiopia & Horn-related articles are invited to join. Please also see this. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:50, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I took a look at the ANI, but can't tell what this would have to do with Ethiopia one way or another, never heard of Bryden, don't see what the actual content dispute is, nor any edit warring on the article. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:45, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Bryden is a Canadian political analyst, who specializes in Horn of Africa affairs. He was previously the Horn of Africa Director at the International Crisis Group (ICG), and later served as the UN's Coordinator for the Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group (SEMG) until his dismissal last year. He is currently the Director of the Sahan Research Horn of Africa think tank. Please see here for a broad summary of the issue. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 16:25, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Aššur

I edited http://en.wikipedia.org/Assur accordingly.

Thanks

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