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" readers will not be privy to the massive undercurrents of dross that underpins WP. They require well written, well sourced, encyclopaedic material that can inform, enlighten and satisfy their interest."

"We live a time when criticism, especially here on Misplaced Pages, is considered to be a personal attack, which is at the root of this nonsense. Yet without criticism we can't improve."

"Montana, you know I respect you greatly--you write FAs that have fewer adjectives than that outburst."

Anyone may play in my sandboxes, in the archive list to the right, IF you promise to behave. This means:

• No kicking sand
• No hitting other people over the head with toys
• No pooping, even if you are a cat and neatly cover it up!
• It's my sandbox, so I can throw you out if you misbehave!  :-)

Before you post on my talk page (humor)

Don't call names, you unmuzzled crook-pated vassal!

You have been noticed using opprobrious epithets. It's payback time from the Shakespeare Insult Generator! To activate the Insultspout and receive fresh insults, click here. Note that all insults generated by the Spout are guaranteed literary and cultured, unlike the nasty things you said, you ruttish clapper-clawed measle.

Happy Montanabw's Day!

User:Montanabw has been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, and therefore, I've officially declared today as Montanabw's day! For being such a beautiful person and great Wikipedian, enjoy being the Star of the day, dear Montanabw! Peace, Rlevse 01:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC) A record of your Day will always be kept here.

For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Awww, gee! That was really super nice! Thank you! Montanabw 04:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

'tis the season

Louisa Venable Kyle wrote a children's book on The Witch of Pungo --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Bad try

Montanabw says: "...inserting a Fox News and American Enterprise Institute analyst as a neutral source."

Montanabw seems to have her own personal rule against conservatives and people who show up on national TV. She is in blatant violation of the NPOV rules. Actually the Barone Almanac is the standard neutral source on elections used by ALL journalists. Rjensen (talk) 20:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

And Rjensen, who openly and publicly self-identifies, is also an admin on Conservapedia and is constantly trying to add a right-wing bias to neutral articles. As for Michael Barone (pundit), his statistics compilation may be accurate and RS, but his analysis is not. And Rj, given that MSU-Billings does not verify your current credentials, per Essjay controversy, and On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog you really need to update your user page. Montanabw 21:17, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

How could a historian possibly be a right-winger? Don't they know the truth? Drmies (talk) 16:07, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

SCOMN! Montanabw 16:34, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

There is a Conservapedia? I must check that out. I was checking back to see if my question for answered but i don't see it. I will re-enter . . . Tomorrow SFGMary (talk) 03:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Bottom of page, Mary, I've answered there. Montanabw 03:20, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the support for completing articles for the tribes in the lower 48. I was actually kind of proud of the fact that it was done, and you are the only person that noticed or cared at all. Moral of the story for me, don't waste so much time on Misplaced Pages. Anyway, happy editing to you! -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

I think it's a HUGE accomplishment, Uyvsdi, and in an area where a lot of people are totally clueless. It is not wasted time, it's just unappreciated time, there's a difference (in a few hours I may need you to remind me of this, see above drama... sigh...) Montanabw 18:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

peer review

Hi Montana:

Can you please review and fix "Fluorine". If it's too long, hit a section.-TCO 98.117.75.177 (talk) 15:43, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I could, but any reason why me?  ;-) Montanabw 22:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Because I like you. 71.127.137.171 (talk) 00:00, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I like you too. Does that mean I can pawn off my articles for you to fix? GregJackP Boomer! 18:43, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Everyone's a comic today! LOL! (And I have not really gotten around to Fluorine yet...) Montanabw 19:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Horse of another color

I wonder how you would classify the markings on this fellow . He's called Top Notch Tonto and is a Group 3 winner in Europe this year and a live outsider for the Group 1 Queen Elizabeth II Stakes on Saturday (so he's one big run away from an article). I haven't seen anythinng quite like those white splashes on a Tb. Tigerboy1966  22:07, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably some sort of sabino (high white above knees and hocks, body spot, chin white). Recent studies actually suggest that this form of "sabino" might be a variant of splash white, but absent testing, hard to say for sure. See Splashed white and Sabino horse. I'd say for now that "sabino" is the safest thing to call it because he has high white but isn't bald-faced, which is more typical of splash. Shoot me an email if you want me to send you some academic articles on this stuff, I've been chatting with Sponenberg again and when I shot him a photo of Oxbow showing the chin spot, he came around to my view that there is some sort of sabino thing going on there, particularly when you look at the jaggedy white and facial markings on Tizamazing. Montanabw 23:46, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

The way I'd phrase it in an article is something along the lines that the horse "is a chestnut with a wide blaze extending onto his chin, four high white stockings, and body-spotting—all characteristic of the sabino pattern." Montanabw 15:00, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I will definitely use it if the article is created. It's a shame he's a gelding so he won't be passing on the pattern. Tigerboy1966  19:33, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably not a spontaneous mutation, can you find photos of sire and dam? I bet I can tell you who gave it to him! Montanabw 19:45, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

He put in a career best effort to finish second. Here's a picture of his sire . Tigerboy1966  14:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Interesting, would love to see a photo of his dam (or even just color/markings description). Poppa doesn't look like the source of all that white, but I do know of a case of a chestnut mare with two bay parents and more white than either of them, the sire carried sabino, expressed only by a nose marking and a roaned-out body spot (sire of a mare I once owned, actually) and the dam was a bay with a blaze and some white on her legs. Montanabw 16:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC) Follow up: Looks like your boy ran second in QEII, but his momma was a chestnut. Can't find a photo, though. He does have his own facebook page. LOL! (Have noticed a number of racehorses have also begun Tweeting, particularly some of the Breeders Cup entries... they are sometimes more articulate than their connections, LOL)

TNT is a gelding who seems to thrive on racing and is still improving, so I expect he'll be around for a while yet, and as a cheaply-bought, funny-looking creature, with a silly but cool name, from a small stable he has massive underdog hero potential. Tigerboy1966  20:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Here's another funny looking horse: Kingston Hill, the top two-year-old in Britain this year . Has a sort of Oxbowish flecked coat, but in this case there's no mystery, he's just greying-out in a slightly unusual way, just like his sire, Mastercraftsman . Tigerboy1966  20:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Now that we understand genetics better, we know that you only get a gray if one parent is gray, and likewise this is true of a "true" roan. Mastercraftsman did grey out slowly, but you could see it on his face. If Kingston Hill is going gray, you're right that it's a weird pattern: so very uniform in some places. FYI, did I tell you that when I found that photo of the chin spot, Sponenberg finally agreed that Oxbow might be carrying some sort of sabino genetics? Of course, Oxbow has now been retired to stud... be interesting to see what he throws, I guess. Given that they just put down a Breeders' Cup contender, Pointsofthebench today due to a fracture during training, I suppose it's smart money not to risk him further. $20K a pop, won't take long to nicely supplement that $1M in purse money won. Montanabw 01:49, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

your changes

Hi Montanabw, yes nobody is talking about that is natural here but a lot of horse owner do so maybe not in USA but in Europe. Nerver mind.

I tried to find any placed to link the article as it was suggested Orphan|date=September 2013 on the main page.

Maybe you could help to do the on the English pages is more easy for you.

What does the low importance mean?. The influence from the research in training and keeping horses is not low. The German Riding association is just printing a new book with the influence of the research for horses and horse owners to handle the horses more easy. maybe have a look to "This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale" also US mustang facilities are using f.e the results of the laterality research.

There are also studies suggesting that a foal will "inherit" or perhaps imprint dominance behavior from its dam, and at ...

I would realy like to know the scientific studies of than. Even Prof Catherine Houpt who was the nearly first scientist, working with inprintind did not say that the foal imprint the dominance behavior. And further studies are showing that imprinting is not a good way to handle foals at all.

Studies. of domesticated horses indicate that horses appear to benefit from a strong female presence in the herd.

I know studies that there is a benefit from old female with a lot of experience. And the Studies of Krueger/Heinze an d a new Study (in press) are showing that it is important to have old horses in a group for social learning in horse, but I would also really have the link to the scientific literature maybe you can find it.

Etron770 (talk) 19:29, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

What we need for your suggestions are more links to the studies in question (even if in German, we have German speakers here) so we can look at them and see if they make any sense. (For example, the study you cited about "roundpenning" was a really poorly-designed study by people who don't understand the methods and purpose of round pen training, not that I agree with the natural horsemanship movement a lot of the time anyway, but the goal is not to "chase a horse around" with the intent to have a horse follow you around in the pasture...). Also, some of this material you are discussing is actually nothing new, it's been known for centuries. Some of these "studies" are just a bunch of bored grad students "proving" things that everyone already knows. I'm not opposed to adding good new research, but after running across stuff like this (feeding grain makes horses "hot," duh...but hey, the lead "researcher" was Ray Hunt's grandson...), I've gotten very cynical about some stuff that gets classed as "research." Montanabw 20:05, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

.. harsh words ... but some points of your answer are illustrating that you are not familiar with the scientific world especially in biology. Your opinion is completely different to the opinion of the leading scientist in animal cognition research. But maybe they are wrong. That's always possible in science. If you really want to discuss the things in a scientific way we can start, but otherwise it will be lost time. That's the common procedure between horseman and scientists especially the opinion that the most of the research is known for centuries. Its your decision to stop her or to go into a serious discussionEtron770 (talk) 10:50, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Um no - you are winning NO points here by making any kind of assumption about what I do or do not know about science or biology. And if you are talking about Konstanze Krüger, it appears that , she clearly is studying this area, and is publishing, , but she is hardly "the leading scientist in animal cognition research." Much as I DO tip my hat to her and take a certain schadenfreude in seeing folks like Monty Roberts debunked, we all know they are hucksters anyway. You have to understand that "equitation science" is a very new field, much of what is happening in Europe has already been done in the USA. From reviewing various studies that get reported, half the time the researchers clearly don't know what they are doing when they set up certain tests, so their results are of questionable validity, or else they are setting up tests to "prove" the obvious. While it is true that many past studies (with which you and I BOTH disagree) that are"anti-horse" in their outcomes (to over-simplify) have suffered from equally poor design, my point here is that if you want to insert material into wikipedia, you need to provide a full cite to the study, be sure the material presented actually states what you claim it states, and not just drop in random material and state, "OK, you other people take my word for it and fix it up." The "roundpenning" study is actually a study of Roberts' "join up" method, which is somewhat different, and because it is poorly written, it fails to explain what was actually occurring. I actually have a thought for how this study could be inserted into the Robert's article, but needs a proper cite to the published paper. Montanabw

I see that we are talking about different things:

• but after running across stuff like this (feeding grain makes horses "hot," duh This is not a peer reviewed article it is a conference article. You can only see the talk but you can not her the discussion after the talk ;-) Those articles are not accepted for scientific reputation, therefore they are not the best source for a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Etron770 (talk • contribs) 09:13, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
• You have to understand that "equitation science... may be the Roundpen study was equitation science but the rest of the studies are equine science. Its a great difference. As I know, this study was only be done to have a peer reviewed tool for the next one
• ... the leading scientist in animal cognition research." who is talking about that?!? Maybe it was a problem of my English?
• The "roundpenning" study is actually a study of Roberts' "join up" method yes it is - Did I wrote something different? As I know, the name Join up was not used because they did not want some letters of M Roberts advocates. '
• ', which is somewhat different, and because it is poorly written why ? even MR cited thee research on his homepage in his blog. Maybe you can go into details. Suhre it seems that this research was the first one after the phd theses and those are normally not better written than the next ones ...
• 'Calling me stupid that are your words I wrote that you are not familiar with the scientific world especially in biology. and your last answer about equitation science was showing this again.

So again if you want to start the discussion about the influence of the studies for riding, training, keeping and "equitaton science", we can try to talk in a more calm way...Etron770 (talk) 06:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Your legitimate problem with English is probably the root of most of our misunderstandings, though clearly you just once again implied that I am stupid. I clearly understand the difference between "equine" and "equitation" - science and otherwise. I don't know what your problem is here, you made poor quality edits to an article, with an inadequate citation, and then told everyone else to just fix it. That was rather rude. I suggest that you put your proposed changes on the TALK pages of each article in question that you'd like to see changed, and then each can be discussed there by those who care (which will mostly be me, but maybe a few others will join the discussion). We can look at the material you want to cite, we can work on a way to word it, and then move forward. Montanabw 15:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I do not know where in the discussion I told you that you are stupid, if yes I do apologise for that even I do not know for what. I only wrote 'that you are not familiar with the scientific world' Sorry about that but it has nothing to do with stupid and with the citation of a conference proceeding you got me another hint for that. Ok no problem I as wrong, sorry.

' I suggest that you put your proposed changes on the TALK pages of each article in question that you'd like to see changed, and then each can be discussed there by those who care' That's a good point for non native speakers - Thanks, but do you think this will be productive after this discussion? I will tryEtron770 (talk) 16:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

OK, that now makes THREE times! ... "that you are not familiar with the scientific world" is precisely the insult. You know nothing about me, my level of education, understanding, or comprehension, and you appear to assume that just because I disagree with you, I therefore don't know what I'm talking about (when you are citing to a poorly-designed study, even if someone published it). I really don't care if you want to engage in productive discussion or not, as at this point I think you are an arrogant fool. Feel free to post your suggestions on the relevant pages, I certainly can't stop you. If you do so without the attitude that you have here, that you have superior knowledge or understanding to others who edit wikipedia, maybe things can be "productive." It's entirely up to you. Montanabw 17:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

'arrogant fool' ... ' I certainly can't stop you.' you did congratulation Etron770 (talk) 05:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

No drama, just a remark.

You know it is not easy to change anything on the pages you have on your watchlist? Hafspajen (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Baloney. I have 3500+ articles on my watchlist, dozens changed daily (50-60 a day minimum) and I don't say boo to 80% of them. Look at the quality of the edits. Do it right, I don't fight with you, and half the time it may be done wrong, but I don't need the drama, either. Montanabw 00:04, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Urgent plead of help

Monty oh Monty. My fellow Finns are, again, at their favourite pastime. MAKING ME FEEL SO ASHAMED I COULD JUST DIE AND COME BACK AS A VENGEFUL GHOST SO I COULD POSSESS THEM AND MAKE THEM SLAP THEIR ARSES LIKE THE DROOL-SPATTERING SIMIANS THEY ARE.

Just... just look at this excerpt and try to tell me you didn't laugh while shouting and shout while laughing as you trodded through the viscous futileness that is its vision of grammar. (I'm leaving every sic out on purpose. You'll thank me later.)

Arabian horse is all-around horse which can almost do any type of sport. Arabians can go in for harness but also dressage, jumping, eventing and western riding but these classes it usually is not top of the World. The breed asset has its versatile as same horse can go all these classes.

In endurance ride Arabian horse is unbeaten because its endurance, speed and stamina. All the Worls tophorses this class are all Arabain horses or Arabian partbreds.

Arabian horses also have own races which organised among other thing Poland, Great Britain, Russian and Sweden.

— Suomen arabianhevosyhdistys

SAHY is a member of WAHO and ECAHO. I shudder. Seeing how that one site's webmaster has, to date, flopped precisely zero fins during the two or three entire years my generous offer to proofread the entire English translation of their Finnhorse promotion site, for free, out of my good goodness, AFTER I MADE IT VERY CLEAR THEY WERE SELLING HOBBY HORSES of all things... I'm much too cynical about contacting SAHY myself to coax them to get someone, anyone (even me) to just wipe the most offending globs of shudder-worthy failure out of that piece of miserable, slobbering inadequacy they call their English-language site.

Please, Monty, my dear, please please arrange a band of black-clad troops from your most sardonic, most British* Wikipedian equestrian allies, and let them forge an e-mail in the fires of Mt Doom. For I am mortified.

* honorary British will do

--Pitke (talk) 16:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

• • ARRRGGGGHHHH! I feel your pain! This is babelfish translation at its worst! Just tell them they can copy Arabian (horse) verbatim with GDFL license, and we'll be glad to mention that there are foo Arabians in Finland! Sheesh! (By the way, your command of English adjectives is impressive, even by the standards of the Shakespeare Insult Generator that I post on my talk edit page! LOL!) By the way, the Finnish Arabian article looks pretty light and in need of help. Feel free to translate from the en.wiki version, which is a solid GA with good sources and the backing of the full WPEQ team! (Ealdgyth and I both own Arabians, I think you knew that already...) Montanabw 17:04, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Drawing for the Gypsy Horse Article

Montanabw, I have been in touch with the person who had the wonderful drawing of good and poor specimens of Gypsy Horses done, and he may be amenable to letting us use that drawing in the article. How exactly do I go about getting him to release that to us for use? He's kind of hard to get hold of since his business close and I'm hoping he'll cooperate. He's now on Facebook though. Let me see if I can attach the drawing--I think it would add a lot to the article.

Can't figure out how to attach it here. It's on this page though--it is the line drawing:

http://silverfeathergypsies.com/THE%20GYPSY%20HORSE/Gypsy_Horse_Conformation.html

Everyone uses this without attribution. I always give BFS&GH credit when I use it. We could either have the owner personally give permission or, I guess, Black Forest Shires & Gypsy Horses, which no longer exists.

SFGMary (talk) 18:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to ping User:Dana boomer on this and see if she has any advice. Normally, the copyright is held by the creator of the image (not the owner of the web site or owner of a printout) and unless specifically released under a free license by the creator, it is presumed to be under copyright for purposes of WP. SOOOO.... The simplest way from this end (though probably toughest for a non-techie person) is for the creator to create and account upload images they create to Commons (I wound up doing this in my tack room in order to illustrate several articles). Another method might be to watermark on/over/at the bottom of the image itself a proper CC-GDFL license of some sort or post something on the page under each image, the way the creative commons licensed images are on Flickr. So pinging Dana? Thoughts? Montanabw 19:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear. One, this can't be a lot of trouble for him to do. I was hoping there was a form i could fill out that he could then submit or something. Second, he's apparently told people that a friend did this for him. Never knew the name of the friend, who apparently turned over all rights to for its usage. It's the best depiction of Gypsy conformation I've seen to date. Haven't heard from him--he won't care if we use it though.i'll check back in a bit and set where we are on this end. SFGMary (talk) 10:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

The easiest way for him (if indeed he holds the copyright) would probably be for you to upload it and have him send an e-mail to the WP:OTRS system saying that he holds the copyright and is releasing it under free licensing. There are samples of the wording needed at Misplaced Pages:Declaration of consent for all enquiries, and he should see the information regarding contacting the proper project (either the English Misplaced Pages or Commons, depending on where you upload it to) at the bottom of that page. If there is any chance that the "friend" still holds copyright, it would need to be the friend that wrote the e-mail releasing it. We need an OTRS e-mail specifically from the copyright holder - "he won't care if we use it" will definitely not fly. Also, I would strongly suggest not uploading the drawing until you have heard back from him, confirmed who owns copyright, and know he is ready to actually write the e-mail to the OTRS team. Dana boomer (talk) 13:39, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Like Dana said. Barring that, someone else who is artistic and less reticent to be involved could create their own completely original drawing and do similar labeling that can then be sourced to the Silver Gypsy or registry page. It's how we've done some of the diagrams we've used at places like curb bit, Horse anatomy, or English saddle.

Just heard from Jeff and, as I thought, he does not mind us using it at all. He had it done for his business Black Forest Shires & Gypsy Horses. He would probably come on to Misplaced Pages and sign this doohickey if it's not a great deal of effort. He's kind of hard to get hold of--i did it through Facebook. Shall i proced? Don't know anyone to do another drawing. SFGMary (talk) 14:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

By "proceed," i meant giving Jeff the wording and telling him where to send it. SFGMary (talk) 14:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you can do the actual upload at Commons and do like Dana says about using the OTRS system. I know someone who is active at commons and can probably streamline the process. Ping me if needed. Montanabw 14:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikistalking

Please stop WP:WIKISTALKING me. Consider yourself warned. Abductive (reasoning) 02:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Err.. Montanabw was involved with the FAC for the article The Livestock Conservancy - see Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/American Livestock Breeds Conservancy/archive1 (organization has since changed names, thus the change of article name). They didn't stalk you, they already had the article watchlisted, I'm sure. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Precisely. Equus Survival Trust and The Livestock Conservancy are both on my watchlist, and Abductive, you were making the same edits to both, the removal of the word "endangered" in reation to endangered breeds (with extremely rude edit summaries on one and extremely rude comment at talk on the other). I gave you the courtesy of a ping on your talk page that I was taking a discussion to talk per WP:BRD. So, I suggest that you stop threatening me now. And stop edit-warring on those two articles, one of which is an FA. Montanabw 03:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thanks for posting on Cnicholson12's talk page with advice on citations. I am the professor for the course, and appreciate your advice, which I will share with my class. Please don't hesitate to get in touch with me if you have any additional advice or concerns. My courses are at: Education Program:Rice University/Poverty, Justice, Human Capabilities Section 1 (Fall 2013) and Education Program:Rice University/Poverty, Justice, Human Capabilities, Section 2 (Fall 2013). Thanks!DStrassmann (talk) 20:20, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Anky van Grunsven

You appear to have missed this. I would invite you to re-consider you edit. GiantSnowman 20:17, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

How about you just verify the info instead of removing it? Or fix it? I don't have the time to deal with this. Montanabw 20:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

But you do have the time to edit against MOS and include unreferenced information about living people? What was wrong with my compromise? GiantSnowman 20:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I am frustrated by people who won't contribute content or fix anything themselves, but can waste my time asking to source the obvious. In this case, I didn't add or tag the original material, plus there was a clear source for the material in the links that already existed, all you would have had to do is go, "gee, someone has had a cite tag on here, but it appears to be accurate info so long as no one vandalized it wonder if the link to the BIOGRAPHY OF THE PERSON that's down in the EL will verify this?" When it's probably a WP:POPE issue, why not fix it yourself? Montanabw 00:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Unsupported accusations at WP:AE

At a recent AE request, you made a number of unsupported accusations about the conduct of another user, including the following: an egregious example of wikistalking, creepy obsession, vendetta, harassment and wikistalking of the worst sort, bullying etc. While I didn't say anything at the time as I didn't want the appeal to digress, for future reference, you should be aware that making unsupported accusations against any user in an AE request can result in sanctions. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 06:34, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Additionally troubling is that you did this after two recent documented instances, and there are numerous other examples of how you seem to have lost sight of community norms and appropriate ways of expressing yourself. Your attacks have affected content reviews at article talk pages, at DYK, at TFA/R, and at GAN at least; please heed the concern. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You are both dead wrong. IR Wolfie has a grudge against me and anyone else who does not agree with everything he says. He is a master manipulator who knows how to make himself look like the victim. I now see he has managed to convince both of you to be proxies for his dirty work, though you may not even realize that you are being used. He has attempted to WP:OUT another user, he is vicious in attacking anyone who calls him on his manipulations, he is the inconsistent and self-appointed god of what is or is not "pseudoscience" by his definition, and far from "unsupported," I provided clear examples with diffs of my concern both times he went after me. As for the rest, Sandy, you asked me to stay off your user page quite some time back, and I am formally requesting that you grant me the same courtesy. Montanabw 14:39, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

And while I am at it Sandy, I have not affected one single DYK, TFA/R or GAN. I have, I think, possibly disagreed with your view of matters once or twice, that is hardly the same thing. Montanabw 14:42, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, you have affected many DYKs, TFARs, and GANs, but only for the better. Mark Arsten (talk) 22:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Mark! Montanabw 03:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

So I don't get accused of making "unsupported accusations", I will just say that I agree with Montanabw's assessment of how certain Editors patrol the borderlines of what they judge to be pseudoscience. Once they can attach the word "fringe" to any user, article or point of view, it is dismissed as inconsequential and they are free to completely disregard it. If any future arguments regarding this practice and specific individuals comes up at AN, AN/I or AC/DS, I'd be happy to provide diffs. Liz 19:18, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I concur with what Liz said. GregJackP Boomer! 19:26, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Gatoclass, I don't think we've met (maybe we have, I can't recall), but if you look at my years of service to wikipedia, absolutely clean block record, and long list of GA and FA-class articles, I believe you will understand that these accusations are wholly unfounded and constitute not only an AGF violation on the part of Wolfie, but also a fine example of attempting to WP:BAIT another editor. Do not rush to judgement here, as I posted extensive diffs regarding the user to whome you were no doubt referring in the dramafest immediately preceding the current dramafest. I also am concerned that talk page venting (noting the famed recent block of Eric Corbett) is now also sanctionable. Misplaced Pages is losing its collective mind at the moment and this concerns me greatly. I would encourage you to be aware that there is almost always more to the story than may appear at first glance. The admins closing statement here confirms in its summary my comment about outing, and in the dramafest within, where I initially dod NOT directly name the user in question, he nonetheless initiated quite an attack on me, with cherry-picked diffs that I responded to with a more extensive set of examples. Far from unsupported, there was ample evidence presented. You may not agree with my analysis or the weight to be given this evidence, but I backed up every statement I made. And yes, I think Wolfie is kind of creepy because I think he is somehow obsessed with Olive. Montanabw 14:56, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Montanabw, for the record I have no knowledge of, nor interest in, your past disagreements with SandyGeorgia. Nor am I taking sides in your dispute with IRWolfie. What I am attempting to do is alert you to the fact that unsubstantiated accusations made at AE can result in sanctions being imposed on the accuser. AE is not an AN/I-type free-for-all, administrators at AE have broad discretion to impose sanctions on any participant whose conduct is seen as disruptive or unhelpful, so for your own benefit, I'm suggesting that you try to avoid making such accusations in future. Gatoclass (talk) 15:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I am cognizant of your alert. However, my comments were far from unsubstantiated, but given the drama there appears to have closed, I have no clue if there is any wisdom to going over there and posting again at this point (particularly as the diffs above show it would just be a repeat of the previous edition). But, for future reference--and noting I was not the only user to comment about the issue -- should I have once again added all the diffs I provided in the last dramafest when the user in question went after me? And, by the way, did you notice what he said to other users on their talk pages? Seriously. I am pretty concerned about this situation. Montanabw 18:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

If you are asking me whether you should open an AE request alleging harassment by IRWolfie, I would discourage you from doing so. I note that in the previous request concerning Littleolive oil, evidence of alleged harassment by IRWolfie was dismissed by two uninvolved admins. I don't know anything about the "last dramafest" between you and IRWolfie, but if you have already taken evidence to a dispute resolution venue and that evidence has resulted in no action, then opening an AE request based on the same evidence would in all likelihood be seen as forum shopping. Regardless, accusations of harassment/wikihounding are in most cases difficult to substantiate to the satisfaction of uninvolved parties, while repeated charges of harassment might themselves be viewed as a form of harassment. So again, unless the evidence was very strong, you would be likely to be disappointed. Gatoclass (talk) 02:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I have only supported other people who have crossed his path and been subjected to his usual treatment. If no one can see the viciousness and harassment that that user engages in, they are blind. No, I'm NOT asking if I should go to AE, (Did you see me say that above? I didn't) I AM, however asking how to avoid folks in your position coming to my talk page, out of the blue, and accuse me of making "unfounded" accusations when I clearly had supported every. single. thing. I. Said. --> but in the immediately preceeding dramafest (of which I thought you were aware, but apparently not). One user says "oh please reprimand someone" without any evidence (on that page, anyway) and suddenly, here you are, with no idea of the background. So I wonder if I should have done the WP:IGNORE of his latest attack or if I should have provided the same set of diffs for the second time in a week. Also, I have NOT taken that user to any of the dramaboards (yet), because I know that he will just unleash more of his usual attacks, all his friends will rally around him claiming he is the innocent party, the crocodile tears will flow freely, nothing will happen (except a few more good content editors will probably get disgusted and leave) and, frankly, I am not in the mood for any of it. Life is too short. Just trying to figure out the catch-22: Stay above the fray, and you are considered guilty as charged. Dive into the fray and defend yourself, you are proving you are guilty. The accused cannot win, Only the bullies seem to prevail. Montanabw 03:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)