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Article style

In my opinion, this article has become an in-depth discussion of the second ammendment, but it has lost is purpose as an encyclopedia article. I am not a lawyer. Instead, I am an economist grad student doing research on arms trafficking between the U.S. and Mexico, and I came to the article in order to look for context in my research. I was looking for an article that summarized what the second ammendment says, and its practical consequences in the present, but instead I found a historical account of its interpretations. In short, I was not able to find the information I was looking for. I do not pretend to say that the information in this article has no place in wikipedia, but it should be in a more detailed article, or at least after some basic sections that summarize basic information on the second ammendment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.120.171.227 (talk) 18:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry that the information was not more useful to you. The difficulty is that the power of the second amendment is defined by the history. There is no definitive source of what it means, except for the various rulings that courts have made over the centuries. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello 209.120.171.227. I’m not sure why you came to this page for your research. Many editors, myself included, believe this article is too detailed as it is.
I suggest looking at Arms trafficking, ATF gunwalking scandal and "The Way of the Gun" (PDF). Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 16:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I've been told by one book writer and another person who works in academia that they have used Misplaced Pages articles solely for their reference and further reading lists. Apparently, if nothing else, we as WP editors excel at ferreting out sources for information.
@209.120.171.227, as for what you are looking for, it doesn't exist. The court judgements notwithstanding, its all a matter of interpretation depending on an individual's perspective, so its a continuum. To understand what you are seeking, try to come up with a model that states the continuum in its most basic way. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 06:00, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
It may not exist, but it should exist, and it should be the beginning of a Misplaced Pages article. Misplaced Pages is not meant for detailed discussion of topics, it simply evolved to include that since the internet provides no limit on the amount of information it includes, but the basic discussion should never be missing. Try to think about what an article on the second ammendment in the Encyclopaedia Britannica included. They somehow managed to discuss any topic briefly so that somebody wanting some basic knowledge could find it quickly. Although Misplaced Pages should not be limited to this kind of reader, it should start any article with simple descriptions of the subject, and this article fails to do so. Try thinking as well of a highschool student reading this article, and you get the idea that the ultimate goal of Misplaced Pages, which is to provide knowledge to everybody, is lost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.120.171.227 (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

As a guide to editors, the main question I was trying to answer was to what extent states are bound in the present by the second amendment. What if citizens in a state voted to ban all guns? What if they voted to ban all guns except small firearms? This may sound like something I should know, but I am not American, so I have no idea. The introduction shows that the interpretation was historically controversial, but it says nothing about the present interpretation. If may be the case that the interpretation is still controversial, but in that case the introduction should clearly say it. It only says that "the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues", which is a debate about whether guns should be banned, but it is not a debate on the second amendment, which would be a debate on whether guns are actually banned. 209.120.171.227 (talk) 17:16, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The "topic" of this article isn't a person or a field or technology, it is a 27 word sentence. So, once we spend 27 words covering it, everything else is stuff related to it (history, interpretations, impacts etc.) I think that most of the things that you are seeking to learn involve other areas such as the US legal system in relation to the constitution, and the interaction between the constitution and politics. But in thinking through an answer to your question, I realized that you are right, this article is unclear in a key area. The (not unlimited) right for personal ownership of and main uses of firearms was basically unquestioned (and not dealt with in the courts) until the last few decades, at which time the interpretation of the protections offered by the 2nd Amendment became a topic of importance and debate. The Heller decision decided the biggest questions, but, as in inherent in doing so, left large areas untouched, essentially leaving the untouched areas to the discretion of lawmakers and lower courts. We have an oddity that our amendments only limit what the Federal government can do to you until they are "incorporated" at which time they also limit what lower governments can do to you. The McDonald case did this with the 2nd amendment.
There are folks here who wish that what I just described weren't so and in deference to them / in a spirit of compromise with them, I think that we have obscured it in this article. North8000 (talk) 17:58, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
There are ample other articles about the socio economic and political ramifications of 2A elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. The purpose of this article is to document and present information about the Amendment itself. This article will (and should) never be what you are seeking. Furthermore, the characterization you have of the final sentence of the lead is exactly the kind of non-neutral point of view that we are going to great lengths to avoid.
Interestingly, I find your characterization of the last sentence of the introduction rather telling. Why do you think the debate between gun control and gun rights groups is about banning guns? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:31, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

After a couple of months working in the subject, I can finally see that what I wanted to look for in the article is actually in the third paragraph of the article, although it is written in such a way that an uninformed reador is not able to understand it. I am sure most contributors to this article are lawers that know perfectly well how common law works and the way it makes precedents binding. But many readers don't, especially those who are not lawyers and those who live in countries with different legal systems (like myself). I am aware that most English-speaking nations have common law, but wikipedia in English is read by many readers all over the world, and I guess you should make sure that a universal reader understands that two cases like those mentioned in the third paragraph have huge implications. 209.120.171.227 (talk) 19:36, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

While I sympathize with your point, and am certainly open to improving the wording to address this issue - an article on the second amendment is not the place to describe how the entire system of American law (or any other country that is based on common law) works. Every page on every law or amendment would need to serve as a primer for the legal system in which it exists, which is not a viable model for an encyclopedia. I will think on wording that could help elucidate this issue without causing more problems than it fixes. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Lead revisited

I have edited the lead to be more neutral and remove a POV fork to another article that is hotly debated in the United States. I have removed the claim of what right the amendment protects and simply added the actual text as it reads.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the consensus-based Introduction. Please reach consensus here for any substantive change to the Introduction before making such change. Adding a quote of the amendment to the Introduction is redundant as the text of the amendment is already in the Text section. SMP0328. (talk) 00:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
It can't be redundant in the lead as the lead is for a summary of the sections and body of the article. I have reverted you as your edit summary is not satisfactory. One does not require to seek consensus for a bold edit and the above discussion seems to be pointed at other discussion. POV forks are against Misplaced Pages Policy and how that slipped by that entire discussion is odd, but I am challenging it now. The sentence is immediately contradicted by the actual lead itself where two conflicting Supreme court cases have placed the question as to whether the claim is accurate. There is no way we can claim that the second amendment is, what it was claiming to be and then leading the reader to an article that expands that point of view. Please discuss as you suggested, but I would request that reverts have more reasoning than against consensus. That means nothing without the proper context and I really don't see consensus for that alone. The rest of the lead as discussed in detail above has not been altered.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:48, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Bbb23 has reverted again, and asked for this to be "fleshed out on the talk page". So I will request further input from editors involved in the above discussion and the projects for further community input. This may have been brought up and was never fully discussed.
This seems to be something of a continuation of some other discussions. So I will proceed with caution as this is surely a hot button topic.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:55, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict, responding only to previous) Mark, there are so many things messed up with your post and edit that it would take a long post to address them. First, you basis for the claim about SMP's edit summary is the exact reverse.....their made sense, and yours didn't )regarding a "fork"....where is the "fork" article? Second, you seemed to have picked up the the "bold" terminology form BRD but ignored the rest. (Starting with the "R"). Third, the lead is not only consensused, it has followed the definition by the highest authority (SCOTUS) North8000 (talk) 00:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for responding North, Yes, I reverted a revert. One I found lacking of any actual reasoning on Misplaced Pages, regardless of your interpretation. The revert simply said "Gain consensus" and I don't have to, nor does anyone to make the edit, but defending the revert does take more than "there is a consensus". Highest authority...what does that even mean. They are a primary source. Analysis or interpretation of their wording is not for us and I see no RS to verify the claim that was made about what right the second amendment protects. Thoughts?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:17, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
The other stuff aside, I seen the first sentence of the lead to be a 30,000' view of what the 2A does and that such is in very firm ground. But it is just that, starting with the wording, with any big questions of the meaning of the wording having been clarified by SCOTUS. But as with any one sentence, you can't read too much into it / must recognize the ambiguities of any one sentence. For example, per the Scotus clarification it is not an unlimited & uncondtiional right nor is it one that unlimited conditions can be placed upon. Similarly, "right" also needs clarification....for example in this case it is a restriction against governmental restrictions, not an entitlement in the sense that we have to buy people guns etc. I think that the later sentences / content of the article need to be relied on to refine what can't be handled in a single sentence. North8000 (talk) 01:37, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Supreme Court decisions are not primary sources. The Constitution is the primary source. SMP0328. (talk) 01:30, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
That is ridiculous, and extremely inaccurate. Supreme Court decisions are primary sources and interpretations of their decisions are secondary. The constitution itself is indeed a primary source as well, but the two are separate documents. Can you demonstrate this suggestion?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:40, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The current language is appropriate, based on District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago. This is supported by plenty of RS, such as the following secondary sources:

  • "Thus, the core Second Amendment right . . . is the individual right to keep and bear arms, specifically handguns, in self-defense." Jeff Golimowski, Note: Pulling The Trigger: Evaluating Criminal Gun Laws In A Post-Heller World49 Am. Crim. L. Rev. 1599, 1616 (2012).
  • "In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court finally determined that the Second Amendment confers, at a minimum, an individual right to possess arms within one's home for the purpose of self-defense." Ben Howell, Come and Take It: The Status of Texas Handgun Legislation After District of Columbia v. Heller, 61 Baylor L. Rev. 215, 216 (2009).
  • "Two years later, McDonald v. City of Chicago incorporated the individual right to keep and bear arms established in Heller to all fifty states." Laura Mehalko, This Is Gun Country: The International Implications of U.S. Gun Control Policy, 35 B.C. Int'l & Comp. L. Rev. 297, 308 (2012).
  • "n which it unambiguously held, for the first time in history, that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms." Clark Neily, District of Columbia v. Heller: The Second Amendment Is Back, Baby, Cato Sup. Ct. Rev., 2007-2008, at 127.

Plus, primary sources are acceptable in this context, see WP:MOSLAW ("Where both primary and secondary sources are available, one should cite both. While primary sources are more "accurate", secondary sources provide more context and are easier on the layperson. Where primary and secondary sources conflict factually, the primary source should be given priority."). Clearly an article about an amendment to the U.S. Constitution falls under MOSLAW. There is no need to change the lede. GregJackP Boomer! 03:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree. And to add suspenders to that belt, the syllabus is prepared by someone else (the reporter of decisions). North8000 (talk) 11:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
A good deal of what I see above may also be countered with RS and I see no attempt to balance the lead or the rticle. In short, this is a political podium making claims that are contentious as if they ae fact and they are not. They are a summary of specific RS to prop up (from my view at least) a claim of what some feel the 2 amendment may be, but is argued otherwise. This article makes claims in Misplaced Pages's voice of authority as if this is set fact. it isn't.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Actually, the lead is balanced, and it is a "set fact." The Supreme Court has determined that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. In the U.S., "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137 (1803). Once SCOTUS has said that this is what the Second Amendment says, that's it. Other fringe views on what it means can be address in the main body of the article, so long as they are not given undue weight, but they do not merit inclusion in the lede. GregJackP Boomer! 14:45, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Excuse the hell out of me. Fringe theory did you say? I haven't said anything about any theories, yet you attack my post questioning the neutrality of this article that has a POV fork that directs the reader to that expressed opinion. Gee...how strong is that claim if you require a fork in the lead? And no...Once SCOTUS has spoken that is certainly not the end. There are certainly many people that debate that. Tell me something...why is your lead so short for a B article? Seriously. it is VERY clear that this article has declined to actually COVER the body of the article and you just admitted that anything that disagrees with your interpretation is fringe and doesn't go in the lead. Funny...I seem to remember the Prop 8 article being forced to show all sides even after the SCOTUS had handed down its decision. This is far from a B article and the lead is not neutral, makes claims as if there is no further debate and actually tells the reader to go to another article to reinforce that POV. Funny, but I do not remember the US Supreme Court going back in time and receiving this clarification. So I would expect an encyclopedia to be honest and state facts and not make claims. The truth is, if you wish to claim this individual right mandate from SCOTUS...you need to spell that out in the lead as you have it as if it has always been and everyone agrees and no problem exists with that interpretation. This isn't that other article. This is the article on the second amendment and you have cut the lead to a simple political agenda of stating only the outcome and not the history in a very convenient way. Very sad state this article is in. Seriously.--Mark Miller (talk) 11:01, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
You are excused, and nowhere did I attack you or your post. Your reply does indicate a lack of understanding on the legal issues however. In Hollingsworth v. Perry, 133 S.Ct. 2652 (2013), all SCOTUS decided was the standing issue. The Court did not decide if gays had a constitutional right to marry, so the inclusion of various theories of the law is appropriate.
In both of the Second Amendment cases, SCOTUS was very clear that 1) it protected an individual right to keep and bear arms, and 2) it applied to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment. That is the law. Any other view is not relevant to the application of the law, and is fringe. For a good explanation on this, see Judge Posner's opinion in Moore v. Madigan, 702 F.3d 933 (7th Cir. 2012). He clearly accepts that the SCOTUS opinion is the law - even though he just as clearly disagrees with it.
There is a distinct difference in a party not having standing to bring a case and SCOTUS affirmatively stating what rights are guaranteed by part of the Bill of Rights. Seriously. GregJackP Boomer! 12:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Mark, for the sake of clarification in this discussion, what's missing from the Lead? Many editors spent a considerable amount of time to craft as concise of a four paragraph lead as we could. I'm not saying there is not room for improvement, but the article is simply "about" the Amendment and its history (recent and less so) as the editor's note states. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:05, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

If you feel everything is over than you need not worry right? Yes, I see some time has gone into the discussion above. Time is of little consequence when the article is never finished and others feel that a B rating requires a summary of the body of the article, not just what a few editor think it is "about". The lead states point information in a manner that assumes no controversy when there is. State what the amendment says FIRST, then go into a brief summary of the article. Even if you make the claim of what the amendment is "said" to protects it needs to state when that interpretation was applied just like other articles.
Look, I have nothing against guns or the right to have them so don't assume I am just some anti gun nut wanting to pour my POV over the article. I understand the way SCOTUS works, I understand the way leads should be written and this is not a B lead.--Mark Miller (talk) 11:20, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
OK, let's use the 15th amendment as a guide/example. It was controversial and then tested in/by Scotus. Where is the kind of stuff that you are asking for in that article / article lead? North8000 (talk) 11:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Indeed court decisions are primary sources and articles should be based on secondary ones. North8000's comment that the meaning of the wording has been clarified by the Court is inaccurate. The Court may decided how a law should be interpreted, but what the law actually means should be determined by reference to secondary sources. It is worth noting that 4 justices dissented from the opinion. Also, the lead is misleading in that it implies the court decided that the right was a "natural right", when Justice Scalia, who is one of the foremost legal theorists in the U.S., rejects the concept of natural rights. The majority opinion of the Court was that it protected a positive right, i.e., whatever right the law allowed in 1789. TFD (talk) 19:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
4 justices dissenting is irrelevant as the majority opinion sets law. However, even within the dissenting opinions there was a unanimous holding that the second amendment protects an individual right. (As is explicitly stated in the dissent). You have asserted repeatedly that Scalia rejected a natural rights interpretation, but have yet to find a single source actually saying so in relation to Heller. Curious as the ruling repeatedly refers to natural rights. The asserted restriction to 1789 is likewise unsourced and WP:OR. You (and others) may certainly disagree as to what the amendment should mean, but what it currently legally does mean is not contested (although the bounds of the protection are certainly ambiguous at this point). /There are numerous secondary sources covering the individual rights ruling, so this should not be an issue. Stop making a WP:POINT. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I provided the sources in previous discussions and also mentioned that nowhere does the Court say that their decision is based on natural rights theory. The division between liberal supporters of natural rights theory and conservative supporters of originalism is central to American jurisprudence. While the Court is entitled to determine how a law should be interpreted, it does not override the policy of neutrality. TFD (talk) 19:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
See this and GregJackP's comment from October 26. Also, the dissenting opinions are noted in the article. SMP0328. (talk) 19:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Beyond that, the natural right mentioned in our lede is self defense, not rtkaba. The "natural right of self defense" is explicitly covered in the opinion. so your argument is a non-starter anyway. Neutrality says we accurately describe the law. There is ZERO controversy about what the law actually is. Some don't like it. Some want to change it. Great. We can talk about that. But it has zero impact on what the law actually is. I fully agree scalia is known for being dismissive of natural rights arguments in the past. You are correct, he does not specifically say "the rtkaba is a natural right". But he does explicitly say it is a fundamental right, and repeatedly and explicitly uses natural rights arguments to bolster his opinion. You may not like that, but you are not in the matrix. There is a spoon. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:42, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
@TFD, you inference that there is some conflict between Scotus and neutrality is vague/unexplained, but I am guessing that you were implying that its finding was just an "opinion" on a disputed matter of the meaning. Since this is a matter of law, their finding is not an opinion on the reality, it is by definition/ defines the reality. North8000 (talk) 21:22, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

indeed. I think a great analogous case is Abortion_in_the_United_States and Roe v. Wade where the topic is equally controversial and BOTH sides are unhappy with the RvW ruling (as well as unhappy with the later Casey decision) and debating what the law should be and how the rulings may be incorrectly decided (in the opinion of those arguers), but the article very plainly says what the rulings were and keeps the objections for the body.

Lede secondary sources


To what extent should these be added to the article? They all look helpful. SMP0328. (talk) 20:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


Additional lede references

Primary sources

Note that under WP:MOSLAW, primary sources are in fact supposed to be cited for legal articles.

  • "Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation." D.C. v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 592 (2008).
  • "There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms." Heller, 554 U.S. at 595.
  • "In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 128 S.Ct. 2783, 171 L.Ed.2d 637 (2008), this Court held that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense. . . ." McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3059 (2010).
  • " provision of the Bill of Rights that protects a right that is fundamental from an American perspective applies equally to the Federal Government and the States. See Duncan, 391 U.S., at 149, and n. 14, 88 S.Ct. 1444. We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller." McDonald, 130 S. Ct. at 3050.
  • "e are bound by the Supreme Court's historical analysis because it was central to the Court's holding in Heller." Moore v. Madigan, 702 F.3d 933, 937 (7th Cir. 2012).
  • "We are disinclined to engage in another round of historical analysis to determine whether eighteenth-century America understood the Second Amendment to include a right to bear guns outside the home. The Supreme Court has decided that the amendment confers a right to bear arms for self-defense, which is as important outside the home as inside. The theoretical and empirical evidence (which overall is inconclusive) is consistent with concluding that a right to carry firearms in public may promote self-defense. Illinois had to provide us with more than merely a rational basis for believing that its uniquely sweeping ban is justified by an increase in public safety. It has failed to meet this burden. The Supreme Court's interpretation of the Second Amendment therefore compels us to reverse the decisions in the two cases before us and remand them to their respective district courts for the entry of declarations of unconstitutionality and permanent injunctions." Moore, 702 F.3d at 942 (emphasis added).

GregJackP Boomer! 23:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Secondary sources

  • "he United States Supreme Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller that U.S. citizens have an individual right to possess guns under the Constitution's Second Amendment." Jeff Golimowski, Note: Pulling The Trigger: Evaluating Criminal Gun Laws In A Post-Heller World, 49 Am. Crim. L. Rev. 1599 (2012).
  • "Thereafter, the Supreme Court, in District of Columbia v. Heller, in an originalist opinion, made explicit the implicit original meaning of the Second Amendment by ruling that it protected an individual right." Lee J. Strang, An Originalist Theory of Precedent: The Privileged Place of Originalist Precedent, 2010 B.Y.U.L. Rev. 1729, 1779 (2010).
  • "he U.S. Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment confers a fundamental, individual right to possess a firearm. . . ." Amos N. Guiora, Self-Defense - From the Wild West to 9/11: Who, What, When, 41 Cornell Int'l L.J. 631 (2008).

GregJackP Boomer! 23:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments

It does not matter what other academics have opined on what the Second Amendment means. Those positions are neither the law, nor mainstream at this point. Legal academics are clear on what SCOTUS decided, and it is reflected in the article. Any contrary position should be covered in the body of the article, not the lede, and should not be given undue weight, any more than any other fringe theory is given. GregJackP Boomer! 23:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Mark – welcome to 2A Talk. I read your claim about POV in the opening sentence and saw your proposed “fix”. I found your arguments unpersuasive. Simply adding the actual text when it is shown directly below seems redundant. The text says what it says. The meaning of the text is and has been open to conjecture, however it is SCOTUS’s duty to determine meaning and limitations of the amendment. All of this is covered in the lede. I am not sure what you mean by “POV fork” – if you are referring to the wikilink, where is that POV? Just saying something is POV doesn’t make it so. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 17:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi Grahamboat, your argument is simply innacurate as the lead will be redundant as that is its purpose...to summarize what is in the article.
As for the claims of fringe view that is nonsense and very POV. Also WP:MOSLAW, states:"In generalWhere both primary and secondary sources are available, one should cite both. While primary sources are more "accurate", secondary sources provide more context and are easier on the layperson. Where primary and secondary sources conflict factually, the primary source should be given priority".--Mark Miller (talk) 23:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
As The Four Deuces stated: "Indeed court decisions are primary sources and articles should be based on secondary ones. North8000's comment that the meaning of the wording has been clarified by the Court is inaccurate. The Court may decided how a law should be interpreted, but what the law actually means should be determined by reference to secondary sources.". This article is a rather POV version of what some think the amendment means. Also of note is the comment that once SCOTUS has spoken, that's it is a false. It is never the end. It certainly isn't the end with DOMA now is it?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Scotus is not a source on the 2A, it is the definer of the reality. North8000 (talk) 23:54, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Could you explain that in further detail please?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
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