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Revision as of 17:31, 3 November 2013 by GreenC (talk | contribs) (+ John Schlossberg)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff) < 2013 November 2 Deletion review archives: 2013 November 2013 November 4 >3 November 2013
John Schlossberg
This article had sufficient GNG sources. WP:INHERIT doesn't censor WP:GNG sources, rather it's an essay on arguments for Wikipedian's themselves to avoid making during an AfD eg. "I, Green Cardamom, believe this topic is notable because I, Green Cardamom, believe this topic is famous." .. rather in this case, it is the sources which express he is notable by virtue of newspaper articles about him. INHERIT is often misunderstood this way, it's not meant to censor reliable sources, rather original arguments made by Wikipedians. (Also INHERIT is an essay and not an established guideline. While it is often viewed as a guideline, it is not because there is no consensus for that, and probably shouldn't trump the guidelines when there is debate over INHERITs application.) Green Cardamom (talk) 17:31, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
List of unusual deaths
The closing admin attempted to prevent any future AFDs of the article, which is beyond his reach.
No reasonable analysis of the input can justify a close as "keep." "No consensus" would have been reasonable, and "delete" is within reach, but not "keep", and certainly not "keep" with this extraordinary preemptive clause that prohibits bringing this thing to AFD again. The deletion arguments are summarized pretty simply: "unusual" is a highly subjective deletion criteria and there isn't any reliable source that allows us to deem any specific death unusual, the community has tried time and time again to agree upon an objective set of criteria and failed. On the "keep side", we have Dream Focus arguing that there is an objective set of criteria while he simultaneously advocates ignoring objective criteria at Talk:List of unusual deaths/Archive 8#no need to use the actual word "unusual", you can think for yourself, Edison arguing that the same objective criteria actually exist, without providing evidence that editors actually follow them. LM2000 and others argue for keep simply because it has passed AFD before, others arguing that Time Magazine coverage of the article mandates keeping it. This whole "objective criteria exist" argument fails to recognize that editors, on the whole, ignore the sourcing criterion and even take to the talk page to argue that requiring sources to describe the death as "unusual" is unfair and unreasonable. Does the criterion exist? Certainly. Is there widespread consensus to use it? Not really.
Colonel Warden even attempted to argue that the Fortean Times is a reliable source in his "keep" argument.
We also have "keep" votes that argue in favor of original research, like Necrothesp, and other keep arguments arguing per Necrothesp.
Making a troublesome AFD worse, we had Martinevans123 disrupting the proceedings in a determined effort to prevent reasonable discussion, making no fewer than 90 comments that generally consisted of snipes at other editors' comments. As for his actual "Keep" vote, it was not based on any Misplaced Pages policy, it was WP:ITSPOPULAR.
It's impossible to provide very much weight to "it's fixable!" for an article that has been to AFD seven times and never been repaired, and that's the majority "keep" argument here. It would be reasonable to conclude that there was no consensus here. It's probably a little early to conclude that the deletes finally have it and that the community is willing to recognize that the article truly is irreparable. Decreeing that the delete side has no foundation whatsoever for its arguments and is being disruptive is out of bounds, though. Sometimes it takes eight or nine passes before people start to see how weak the keep side of an argument is, and there's no reason to declare that this article is immune to future deletion discussion.
I'd love to see an overturn to delete, but I recognize that that would be as or more problematic as this close. Realistically, I want an overturn to no consensus and a removal of the language that dictates that no further AFDs can ever be started against this article. —Kww(talk) 16:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
- Closing administrator comment: Please see User talk:Coffee#List of unusual deaths AFD for further context. I'll take more time to lay out my reasoning to the reviewers here, if/when that becomes warranted. Please keep in mind I'm sleeping throughout the day due to my current work schedule, so I may be late in replying to questions or concerns. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 17:21, 3 November 2013 (UTC)