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October 30

Grammatical?

I just took a multiple-choice exam in which one of the questions struck me as possibly being badly formed.

"No wait!", shouted the priest, ___

I chose "Have mercy!", but now I wonder if the comma after priest is permissible. Is it? And if so, would the correct answer have been "have mercy!"? Clarityfiend (talk) 00:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Please list all the choices. StuRat (talk) 01:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Stu, but, off the bat, it should be "No, wait!" with a comma after no. μηδείς (talk) 01:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Unless the priest were running an establishment where normally people have to queue. Like a casino, a brothel, a porn shop or a bank. :) -- Jack of Oz 01:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Are you really implying one has to wait in line at a casino, brothel, or pornographer in Australia? Are they state-run? Or run by bank tellers? μηδείς (talk) 01:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I was joking, of course. I am not a frequenter of such places. The fourth one least of all, obviously.  :) -- Jack of Oz 01:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

You would want to avoid any establishment that has "tellers", unless you know who they tell things to. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

It was a timed test. I don't remember the other choices, just that they were obviously wrong. So what should go in the blank? Or is it only proper to say "No wait!, shouted the priest. "Have mercy!" Clarityfiend (talk) 02:36, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Presumably, the test asked you to choose the "least wrong" answer. I would certainly expect to see a comma. Obviously there can be no "right answer" to such a vague question, but styles vary and commas are often omitted in modern prose. Dbfirs 07:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The No wait bit isn't part of the multiple choice aspect of the question (and it may have said No, wait! on the test anyway). "have mercy!" is certainly a valid ending to that sentence, though whether it's correct for the test might depend on a broader context, particularly if it's testing comprehension of a broader passage. And yes, there should be a comma after "priest".--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I think it should be a period, not a comma, after "priest". rʨanaɢ (talk) 09:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

That would depend on whether he said "No, wait! Have mercy!" as essentially a single utterance (that would require a comma after 'priest'), or whether he said the first part, then paused for a few moments, then said the second part (that would require a period). -- Jack of Oz 10:55, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

If you're going to treat "No, wait!" and "Have mercy!" as separate sentences by capitalizing have, there would indeed (in U.S. usage) normally be a full stop after "priest". Only if the direct discourse is taken to be "No, wait! have mercy!" (although that use of an internal exclamation point in a sentence is rather old-fashioned) would you use a comma, along with a lowercase h in have. Deor (talk) 15:16, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

So if I grok this right, it's "have" with a comma, "Have" with a period? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The capital Have with a period would still be wrong because it would become a direct quote not attributed to anyone. μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

"No, wait!" shouted the priest. "Have mercy!" or "No, wait," shouted the priest, "have mercy!". rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately neither was how it was presented. That accursed "!" threw me off. So it seems the question was badly formed, and I'm pretty sure they marked me wrong on it. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Your first example is wrong, Rjanag. We know the priest said, "No, wait!" in that case, but not who said, "Have mercy." μηδείς (talk) 00:25, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

That's absurd, Medeis; look at any novel that contains dialogue. When the quoted material preceding a "said Bob" or similar identifier is a complete sentence, the identifier is closed with a period, even if more from that speaker follows. A change of speaker is conventionally signaled by a paragraph break. Deor (talk) 00:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

It's not absurd. You are just making the point that in a badly edited novel one can guess. μηδείς (talk) 16:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Gia

We recently discussed on the Humanities desk how in Italian the digraph -gi- is pronounced like our j, so that, e.g. Giovanni is pronounced /jo-vah-nee/ and not /jee-o-vah-nee/, etc.

But I've always wondered about the given name Gia (see GIA#Persons for a list of examples). I imagine it's a contraction of Giovanna (/jo-vah-na/), but is it pronounced /jee-a/ (as I've always assumed) or just /ja/, as it is in Giacomo (/jah-co-mo/, not /jee-ah-co-mo/)?

If the former, why, and are there any other exceptions to the rule? -- Jack of Oz 01:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The word già ("already, previously") is a single syllable, but the given name Gia is indeed two. Why? Couldn't tell you. But compare Lucia (three syllables) with Lucio (two). --Trovatore (talk) 01:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The article says "Gia" is short for "Gianna". Is that likewise pronounced "gee-ahn-uh"? Or is it like "john-uh"? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Gianna is just two syllables. It's not exactly "john-ah" but that's probably the closest you can get in English. --Trovatore (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

That article Gia (name) has a footnote, in the references section, without any reference, which addresses exactly this question, saying that the name is English only, and derives from the three-syllable English pronunciation of "Gianna". Circumstantial evidence is that it:Giovanna_(nome) makes no mention of "Gia".  Card Zero  (talk) 02:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

It's a matter of stress. First of all, there are two ways of pronouncing the "g/c" in Italian. Before "a", "o", "u", it's like in "garden" and before "e", "i", it's "John". If you want before "a", "o", "u", you have to add an "i" after "g", which is only for orthografic reasons. You don't pronounce the "i". If you want before "e", "i", you have to add a silent "h" after "g". It depends on the word if you treat the "i" as an orthografic letter or not and there are no accents indicating the stress like in Spanish (unless it's the last syllable to be stressed). The same goes with "c" ( or ).--2.245.187.63 (talk) 15:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, occasionally accents are used to indicate stress. The first one that comes to mind is àncora ("anchor"), to distinguish it from ancora ("again, still"). But I agree it's not very common. --Trovatore (talk) 19:16, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I think I get that. So, how does one know whether to treat an "i" as an orthografic letter or not? -- Jack of Oz 17:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably the same way you do in English. By context, and by simply learning all various rules and exceptions. Do you lead the race or do you have lead in your pencil? --Jayron32 18:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Drop round to my place tonight and maybe you'll find out.  :) -- Jack of Oz 18:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Chinese help: Niehai Hua characters

What is the Chinese for the following Niehai Hua characters?

• Chin Wen-ch'ing -> Jin Wenching
• Fu Ts'ai-yün -> Fu Caiyun

That way people can easily look up information about them in Chinese.

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 05:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Chin Wen-ch'ing would be Jin Wenqing.

You are correct that Fu Ts'ai-yün would be Fu Caiyun.

Marco polo (talk) 17:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you :) WhisperToMe (talk) 08:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Eejit

How do you pronounce this word? I do not understand the characters used to describe pronounciations either so... pleeease help me a little bit. Also, where does this word come from? Is it used only in Ireland or in the US and UK as well? Miss Bono 14:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The emphasis is on the "ee", and the "jit" part has a very short "i" vowel. So it becomes "ee - jt". It's actually the way of spelling how the word "idiot" is pronounced in Ireland. It is used in the UK, I think mainly because Sir Terry Wogan popularised it on his long-running radio programme. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec)It's the way that "idiot" is pronounced with an Irish accent, an exaggerated Irish accent, actually. And since the word is quite a common insult in Irish English, this spelling is quite recognisable in popular culture. I'm pretty sure it was used in Father Ted, for example. It's pronounced as it's written, with the emphasis on the first syllable. It would be recognisable in the UK, especially if the speaker is Irish, or if there's some context, but not as commonly used as in Ireland. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I tried to pronounce it right now and soemone in the office said: "Bless you!" So I must have pronounce it terrible. The j is pronounced as in Jack, right? Miss Bono 14:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Right.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Ohhh, I think I get it right... and the ee as in beer? So that's how the Irish pronounce idiot, interesting? I still don't can't differentiate an Irish accent, each Irish people I hear talk, seems to have different accents so I am not sure how's really an Irish accent. Miss Bono 15:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

More like the ee as in bee, tree and fee. The whole word is something like EEE-jət. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The "ee" in "beer" is typically pronounced more like a short "i" rather than a long "e" - that is, "beer" rhymes with "ear". From what the others are saying here, it seems like "eedjit" is pronounced like "Egypt" without the "p". In English, especially in the US, any "d" sound followed by an "i" can potentially be slurred into a "j" sound. The most obvious of these is probably the pretty-much-offensive "Injun" instead of "Indian". The Acadian people in Louisiana came to be called "Cajun", which is a standard term. And Yosemite Sam (who has red hair and a short temper, so he might be an Irish stereotype) once said to Bugs, "Ya gol-durned idjit!" ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Depends how you prounce Egypt, I guess! For me the second vowel in Egypt is a definite i (as in igloo) whereas in eejit it's a much shorter uh type sound, almost as if the vowel weren't there. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The Prounce of Egypt?  :) -- 17:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I remember someone writing in to the Terry Wogan show, saying that she was in the car when she heard the newsreader say "George Bush is in Egypt" and thought the newsreader had actually said "George Bush is an eejit". That had me crying with laughter! --TammyMoet (talk) 14:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It's actually "idiot" pronouced as if it was a word in the Irish language, with a fada on the first i. Under the standard rules of Irish pronunciation, ídiot would come out sounding like "eejit", a two-syllable word with a long i sounding like English "ee", the d between "slender" vowels being palatalised and sounding like English "j", and the vowel of the second syllable reduced to a schwa. It's a bit like the Irish pronunciation of "film" as "fillum" - the extra syllable is the Irish epenthetic vowel, which frequently intrudes between adjacent consonants (dearg, "red", is pronounced "jarrig", and gorm, "blue", is pronounced "gorrum"). Oddly enough, most people who say "eejit" or "fillum" don't know a word of Irish, or even understand Irish pronunciation. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:18, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Ohhhh cool! Now I wish I could find the standard rules of Irish pronunciation... that sounds awesome! Miss Bono 12:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You could try Irish orthography, but be warned, it's complicated.--Nicknack009 (talk) 13:07, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

When I had INternet access I downloaded a course of Irish, but when my laptop got broken I lost it... Miss Bono 13:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Happy Halloween Everybody at the RefDesk Miss Bono 18:17, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ms Bono. In the film Philomena the eponymous character calls the Steve Coogan/Martin Sixsmith character a "feckin eejit". Itsmejudith (talk) 23:54, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, that's kind of an Irish thing, right? I still wonder why so many es when someone is referring to the way Irish people speak? Miss Bono 15:47, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Spanish ch

I often hear that the "ch" is rather like or even than . What variation is that and is it even common in Spain?--2.245.187.63 (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I would like to help you but I don't understand those symbols. Miss Bono 16:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

To your ear, does the "ch" in words like "chili" sound the same in both English and Spanish? I think that's what the OP is trying to ask. (To me, as with you, those IPA symbols are gibberish.) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

For example, "chico" sounds like "tsico" . is hard to describe without knowledge of Slavic languages. It's like "ch" in English but definitely softer. But Baseball Bugs' answer is a good paraphrase.--2.245.187.63 (talk) 16:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, is the same "ch". Like in "Cha cha cha" Miss Bono 16:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to know if there are regions with different pronunciation like seseo or yeísmo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.245.187.63 (talk) 17:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The standard Spanish pronunciation is . I believe Miss Bono is Cuban, and I think that the standard pronunciation prevails across all or most of Latin America. It would be helpful to hear from someone familiar with regional varieties of Spanish in Spain whether any of these varieties have alternative pronunciations of this phoneme. Marco polo (talk) 17:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

(EC) I'm not from Spain, but from Cuba. As far as I know the only thing that changes between regions here is the accent and some words like cutara for chancleta (flip-flop), we said chancleta in the capital city whilen in the West they say cutara, the word would actually be chancla. Another word is puerco (pig), in the capital city we say it that way but in the West they say macho... the word would be cerdo. Miss Bono 17:08, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Looking at http://www.forvo.com/word/chico/, the samples by wordfor and Aythami have , whereas fernando_tala and Ainess pronounce it with (or maybe even , for Ainess). So yes, there is certainly some variation, though I have no idea about its distribution.—Emil J. 17:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Miss Bono, I cannot express my joy at learning that 'macho' means "pig". This is gonna be a good day. -- Jack of Oz 17:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Jack In the capital city macho means hombre and in the West macho means pig but no as an offence but like pork, the animal. May I ask why this is going to be a good day? Miss Bono 17:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I have an abhorrence for machismo in all its forms and manifestations, most particularly my own home-grown version. -- Jack of Oz 18:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Jack, macho and hembra are regular reflexes (the expected developments) in Spanish of the Latin masculus and femina. I do not know the source of the pork meaning, but it's not unlikely it simply refers to boar, rather than sow meat. English is the language that gives macho the narrower meaning butch. μηδείς (talk) 03:15, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. It's still close enough for my purpose, which is to inform any individuals who try to enmachulate me that in Cuban Spanish it means 'pig'. -- Jack of Oz 03:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yes... pork it's meat, but I was trying to find a word referring to 'pig' without sounding insulting. Jackt you have to understand that not everybody knows that 'macho' means 'pigglet'... it is only in the West, people of the Center and the East simply say 'pig', (the animal not the offence)... Now I feel guilty because you think that 'macho' in Spanish is an offensive word. Miss Bono 12:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

(* sniggers sinisterly *) Making people feel guilty is my supreme ambition in life. As one my Halloween heroes wrote: "Winning is never enough - others must lose". -- Jack of Oz 13:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

:'( Miss Bono 13:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It would be still nice to get some more opinions concerning my actual question.--2.245.126.133 (talk) 17:25, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I said befor that I could help you if you explain your questions without those characters I don't quite understand ] Miss Bono 15:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I've already explained it without using IPA. By the way, it's not difficult to learn it. Maybe you'll understand this: If you say "chico", is your tongue further forward than pronouncing the "ch" in for example English "chase"?--2.246.8.31 (talk) 17:39, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

We have an article with subsection which should answer the original question: Ch (digraph) - Spanish. Despite what that says, i did not notice a difference during my travels in northwestern Mexico as well as the rest of Mexico and much of Latin America. El duderino 06:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there's nothing about variations in the article.--2.246.8.31 (talk) 17:39, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

The first sentence refers to variation: "ch is pronounced as a voiceless postalveolar affricate in both Castillian and Latin American, or a voiceless postalveolar fricative in Andalusian and Northwestern Mexico." El duderino 21:51, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

How to write out "two hundred and twenty-five millionth" in Greek?

I would be using it as an adjective for the word "anniversary" but want to avoid the form "225 millionth" in the Greek. It takes the Milky Way Galaxy that long to do a full rotation about its center.

I would need it spelled out in the Latin alphabet, but might benefit from having it in Greek alphabet too.

Thanks, Bill Finch — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.189.175.206 (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Ancient Greek: διακόσιοι εἴκοσι πέντε εκατομμυριοστός. Might be wrong in details. Wait for somebody more competent.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

October 31

Yeah, no, absolutely.

I'm listening to an interview in which the elder professional asks now and again "Does that make sense?" and the young journalist's reply (which seems, from other evidence, to intend an affirmative) always begins "Yeah, no, ..."

Who can explain this "no"? Am I right in thinking it was invented by those horrid people younger than myself? Is it a relic (like "is is") of some context in which it made sense, but from which it has come unmoored? —Tamfang (talk) 03:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe it means "You're not putting me to any inconvenience." —Tamfang (talk) 03:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The wider linguistic community has been examining the "yeah no" phenomenon for quite some years. There are numerous theories about how it ever got started and what it actually means. But what's not in doubt is that it's here to stay. -- Jack of Oz 03:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't like him much, but this is funny.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure it's not "Yeah I know", where the I is elided between the "yeah" and the "know"? --TammyMoet (talk) 14:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Read some of the links in my post above, Tammy. Here are some more. It is definitely "yeah, no". For some reason, Australia has provided extremely fertile ground for this expression, but it's certainly encountered elsewhere. -- Jack of Oz 15:04, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

All I can say is that I say "yeah I know" and so do others here in the UK. I've heard Aussies use "look" or "yeah, look" or "yeah, no, look" to introduce their speech, but it is different over here.--TammyMoet (talk) 21:20, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

"Yeah, no" is attested in the States as well. It is definitely not "I know". --Trovatore (talk) 21:23, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I say "Yeah, no," and it's definitely not "Yeah, I know." RNealK (talk) 22:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

This early 2002 study called 'Yeah-no He's a Good Kid': A Discourse Analysis of Yeah-no in Australian English' by Kate Burridge & Margaret Florey, in the Australian Journal of Linguistics, needs a subscription to access, but I've seen it referred to in a number of other pieces. Maybe get it through WP:REX. -- Jack of Oz 01:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Tammy, I'm sure it's not "I know", both by the rhythm and because "I know" would make no more sense in context. —Tamfang (talk) 02:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

See "Yes! We Have No Bananas".—Wavelength (talk) 16:31, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• These things are hesitation markers, and in adults they are often signs poor speech habits, poor thinking processes, or a resulting or general lack of confidence. Specifically, "yeah, no" can mean "yeah, I hear you" but "no, your implication is false". μηδείς (talk) 04:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

  Sometimes it's in response to another speaker who has directly or implicitly made a negative claim; the responder is agreeing with the speaker, and denying that which the speaker is denying. At least that's my intuition. --Trovatore (talk) 04:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, no. μηδείς (talk) 04:53, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

That usage also exists, but it's different from the one being discussed here. --Trovatore (talk) 05:06, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The one we're talking about here is like the typical post-sports match interview with one of the key players. Interviewer: "You had a cracker of a game today, Brock". Brock: Yeah, no, I didn't do too bad, did I. The claim is positive and he's in total agreement with it, but there's still a "no" in there. Whatever the function of the "no" is, it has nothing to do with negating or denying anything. It's unfortunately very infectious; even I have caught myself saying it in conversation. I try not to, but sometimes it just sorta comes out. -- Jack of Oz 06:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

But "Yeah (I) know" would make perfect sense wouldn't it? --TammyMoet (talk) 09:59, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

A normal response to "You didn't do too badly today" would be "No, I didn't do too badly." The "Yeah" in front of that would seem to be almost a separate sentence, acknowledging and agreeing with the interviewer, followed by the self-deprecating sentence. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:08, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Consider this exchange: "Did you go to the store today?" The response could be, "No, I did not go to the store today." The response could also be just "No". That might figure into it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

A related idiom in one dialect of American English, New England English, is "So don't...", which is used to mean "also..." In New England, "So don't I" means what " Me too" means in other dialects. See and . These sorts of phrases like " yeah, no" and " so don't I" are idiomatic, and so resist analysis under the strict rules of grammar and syntax. --Jayron32 11:08, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree. People unfamiliar with "yeah no" always try to analyse it as two words, which is understandable. On its face it doesn't make any sense, and so it's also understandable that people come up with ideas and theories about what the speaker "must have meant". But in its functioning, it is much more like one word than two. Indeed, the Australian study I linked above calls it "yeah-no". -- Jack of Oz 19:43, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Who vs. Whom

I am trying to write an article relating to the labeling of people as something by an outside entity. If the people are going to be labeled and categorized, would I want to write "Who would be labeled as X" or "Whom would be labeled as X"? 37.221.244.23 (talk) 12:00, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It's the subject of the (passive) verb, so it's "who". --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec) If you rewrite it as a statement, it would be "They would be labelled as X", so it's "who", not "whom". The people are the subject of the passive construction "would be labelled". If the question were to be written in the active voice (which I do not recommend) it would be "Whom would they label as X?" (because "they would label them"), though the who/whom distinction is disappearing in speech and informal writing, so "who" would not stand out as obviously "wrong" to many people in this case. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:10, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Or, if you're more comfortable getting your learnin' via comics: How and why to use whom in a sentence. Dismas| 12:17, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Use who when he is appropriate, and whom when him is appropriate. Ignore the rest. μηδείς (talk) 04:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
  • If that's the consistent rule, it would wreak some havoc with "Who's on First?" :( ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:04, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
    • How does it wreak havoc with "Who's on first"? Do you answer "Him's on first"? Itsmejudith (talk) 15:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
      • "... and I throw it to Who?" "That's the first sensible thing you've said all day." Tevildo (talk) 19:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Dear friend from the Czech Republic, be aware Bugs is talking about a famous 70 year-old American comedy routine where people intentionally misuse words. It has nothing to do with writing proper English. μηδείς (talk) 03:22, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
  • It is not "misuse of words", it's a masterful employment of the use-mention distinction to humourous effect. We (naturally) have an article (Who's on First?) on the sketch. Tevildo (talk) 21:06, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Whatever you want to call it, Sauron, our non-English speaker seeking guidance above would do best to ignore it. The comedy skit is in no way normal speech or even easy for native speakers to follow. μηδείς (talk) 03:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
      • It's a "misuse" of words in that Who, What, I Don't Know, etc., are not normally surnames. Someone who does not know English well might get as lost as Costello did, though maybe for different reasons. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

what is the opposite of 'good governance' (catchier than, 'bad governance')

There is a framework: the good things are 'security', 'empowerment', 'opportunity', 'good governance'. We want to talk about increasing those good things, and decreasing the opposites. Security - insecurity. Empowerment - dependency. Opportunity - exclusion. Good governance - ?? Of course, it could just be 'bad governance'. But that doesn't read nicely. What word, phrase could be used in a table/chart/framework, to mean the opposite of 'good governance', without just saying 'bad governance'. Thanks if you have a 'good' suggestion. (Sorry this is a little bit of a bend to the intentions of the refdesk. I usually try to avoid the opinion questions and stick to the facts, but ... ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.173.50.222 (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Just plain "governance"? --Trovatore (talk) 16:56, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

"Bad governance" sounds awkward because it is vague. It could refer to "incompetent governance", "corrupt governance", or both. I would choose one of those, or "corrupt and incompetent governance" in the case of both. StuRat (talk) 17:14, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Or "inept" if the people in government meant well but weren't up to the job. Alansplodge (talk) 17:30, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Misgovernance, or malgovernance (the former sounds more natural). --Orange Mike | Talk 18:34, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

There are the words malfeasance, misfeasance and nonfeasance, but they are more specific in meaning than just "bad governance". I've not heard of malgovernance before. — Cheers, JackLee 19:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Malgovernance is most widely used in South Asian English; don't have an OED handy to give you dates. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:52, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The OED has not noticed this. It lists "malgovernance" as obsolete rare, which means that they know of only a single example of it; that is from 1673. --ColinFine (talk) 22:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The OED may not have noticed, but it is true nonetheless. If you type malgovernance into Google, you find many reliable sources using the word in relation to places like Bangladesh and India. It does appear to be a standard term in South Asian English. --Jayron32 10:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

In the business world, "mismanagement" comes to mind. Also, I question "opportunity" as the opposite of "exclusion". The opposite of "exclusion" is "inclusion". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:10, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Business as usual, or the normal state of affairs. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:46, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

In my experience, "poor governance" is the most idiomatic broad term. Depending on the context, other terms, such as "corruption," may be more appropriate. John M Baker (talk) 15:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Chinese help: Further reading for Sai Jinhua

What are the Chinese names of the books and authors in Sai_Jinhua#Further_reading that do not already have Chinese names?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

November 1

Spanish party name

Anyone got a good translation of Partido Concentración Obrera? 'Workers Concentration Party' just sounds weird. --Soman (talk) 04:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

This link has some alternate English translations of concentración. The sixth on the list gives a definition with the sense of manifestación ("demonstration"). "Workers Demonstration Party" sounds good.--William Thweatt 04:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

We don't have a Spanish version of the English article. Thweatt's research seems useful. Normally I would say ask Soman, but unfortunately he's the one asking the question. Miss Bono may be able to help if she can explain this to us in a sentence or two, rather than just using one or two synonyms. I'll leave a not. μηδείς (talk) 05:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

More parties with similar names:

• Partido Concentración de Fuerzas Populares (Ecuador)
• Partido Concentración popular (Argentina)
• Partido Concentración Mexicana.

--NorwegianBlue 10:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Maybe another way of saying "consolidated"? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The spanish language article for the old argentine party is here: http://es.wikipedia.org/Concentraci%C3%B3n_Obrera Cfmarenostrum (talk) 10:22, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You beat me to it. :) It's simply Concentración Obrera rather than Partido Concentración Obrera. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:24, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The spanish language article for the "Rassemblement Populaire pour le Progrès" (a political party in Djibouti) is "Concentración Popular por el Progreso". The name of the english language article for the same party is "People's Rally for Progress". OTOH, "Rassemblement" in the name of the former french party RPR is translated as "Reagrupamiento" on es.wikipedia (in order to keep the initials?) and still "Rally" on en.wikipedia.

https://es.wikipedia.org/Concentraci%C3%B3n_%28desambiguaci%C3%B3n%29Cfmarenostrum (talk) 10:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The word is rally... I think (O_o) What is exactly what you are looking for? Miss Bono 13:02, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps it's "Labour Party: the Gathering". μηδείς (talk) 03:14, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Being a sugar daddy vs. keeping a mistress or concubine or prostitute

What is the difference between being a sugar daddy and keeping a mistress/concubine/prostitute-sort of thing? Have there been concubines documented in the United States? You know, a situation where a woman lives with a man and assumes a position lower than the man's legitimate wife but the wife is OK with it because the wife can use the woman as her maidservant or surrogate mother? 140.254.227.58 (talk) 11:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Being a sugar daddy does not inherently imply a mistress. It has more to do with an oldish man and a youngish woman. The situation with Anna Nicole Smith and that geriatric guy she was married to was kind of an extreme. There have certainly concubines among the wealthy (JFK comes to mind), but the specific scenario you're describing might be harder to find. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Being a sugar daddy is the same thing as keeping a mistress, with the assumption that the man is older, and that usually is the case anyway. Given the population of the US, I'm sure that there must be documented cases of what you describe as concubinage. For a start, there are men who have had two wives legally in another country and then bring both of them to the US. Only one of the marriages would be recognised in the US of course, but if they can manage to get through immigration then there is nothing to stop the three of them living together. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The term redirects to Age disparity in sexual relationships, and neither the word "mistress" nor "concubine" appears in that article. Perhaps it needs revising? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:02, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I think that the redirect is unfortunate. I believe (although I would need to check sources before editing an article) that th3e slang term "sugar daddy" in this sense clearly implies an economically unequal relationship, that is, it is simply a slang term for a man who has a mistress, that is a woman who he supports in return for sexual favors and companionship. It often but not always implies an age disparity as well, but then, at least in western culture, the man is usually older in such relationships. (By the way there have been a few cases where US courts have recognized plural marriages as legitimate (for example Kobogum v. Jackson Iron Co.. See Laughing Whitefish (book for more info.) Some such relationships may amount to concubinage in the sense that the OP mentions, and others will not. I don't think the term implies anything about that one way or another, but the image is of a woman being supported in a separate residence, I think. DES 17:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps it should redirect to Mistress (lover) instead, if a mention of the term for the male was inserted there. DES 17:27, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

How do you classify the Anna Nicole Smith situation? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:02, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't remember all the details of that case, to be honest. But in any case such slang terms describe general situations or even stereotypes, they are not tightly defined technical terms, as I see it. People use them as they see fit, fashion changes, and some use them more broadly than others. I thinkg "Sugar daddy" is a bit old fashioned now, i see it more in fiction (or news accounts) from the 1960s or earlier than I do in current writing or discourse. That may be a national or regional variation, i don't know about current usage elsewhere than the US, and esp the Northeast US. DES 20:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Sugar daddy is not the same as keeping a mistress. The former pays (the sugar part); someone who keeps a mistress may or may not. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:14, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Keeping a mistress means paying for her keep. Similarly, the sugar in sugar daddy is the money. I agree that the term recalls an earlier epochs That's because nowadays women are able to earn their own keep. When "My heart belongs to Daddy" was a hit, everyone knew what was meant, double meaning and all. Itsmejudith (talk) 06:57, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

"Keep" has two possible meanings here - "have" and "pay for" - therefore not synonymous. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Maybe the term 'sugar daddy' used to mean only "keepng a mistress" (which implies he is married to someone else) but these days it more broadly means someone wealthy enough to pay for the girl's expenses in exchange for sex, irregardless of whether he is married or not (and thus whether the girl would be called his 'mistress' or not). There are websites with girls looking for sugar daddies. El duderino 05:10, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I thought Sugar Daddies could marry the woman in question and still be a sugar daddy. Maybe not? Mingmingla (talk) 02:13, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't he be a sugar hubby then?  :) -- Jack of Oz 06:28, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

It might be kind of a cliché, but I think it's still around. That term "daddy", by itself, implies a man who is controlling someone, as in "Who's your daddy?" The "sugar" part would be a bonus for women who are willing to be "kept". Meanwhile, I'm reminded of this line from "Cocaine Blues": "Shot her down / Because she made me sore / I thought I was her daddy / But she had five more." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Hangul transliteration help

Hi all,

• Down at the bottom of the Park Geun-hye article is a "Party political offices" listing Park as succeeding "Choe Byeong-ryeol" as "Leader of the Grand National Party"
• In the Saenuri Party section "List of Chairpersons" is "Choi Byeong-yul (May 26, 2003 – March 22, 2004)"

Is this the same person as ko:최병렬?
Pete aka --Shirt58 (talk) 12:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Edit: my new years resolution for 2011 was to learn Arabic and to finally get around to learning Korean. My new years resolution for 2012 was to learn Arabic and to finally get around to learning Korean. My new years resolution for 2013 was to learn Arabic and to finally get around to learning Korean. Pete "My new years resolution for 2014 is to learn Arabic and to finally get around to learning Korean" aka --Shirt58 (talk) 12:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Do not waste your time for the things you never directly experience in your everyday life or you will never experience in your immediate future, and be happy. Learning or at least constantly planning to learn languages which are not used by you in everyday life is really annoying and upsetting from psychological POV, I witness it by myself. I tried to learn many languages but failed, because no real motivation, no actual use and benefits - no success. When you really need Arabic or Korean you'll learn them without any resolutions and with much success. If you still have not learnt them then you do not need them. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 21:43, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Learning to read the Arabic and Korean scripts is trivially easy though, if you just want to compare transliterated names like this. For this name, 최병렬 certainly says "Choi Byeong-ryeol", but the R and the L are not really distinct like they are in English, and the R is more of an alveolar flap. As our Korean phonology article says, R/L "is unstable at the beginning of a word, tending to become before most vowels, and silent before /i, j/..." So, almost certainly, the R of -ryeol is just swallowed because of it's position in the name, assimilated into the previous and following sounds. It's spelled -ryeol but pronounced -yul. Also, I don't think -yul alone is a permissible combination of Korean sounds, so Byeong-yul couldn't be that guy's actual name and there would be no way to spell it in Hangul. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:07, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

@Lüboslóv Yęzýkin: I live in a city of 3 million people. I bicycle past two mosques, a Greek Orthodox church, and a Saint Thomas Christians secondary school on my way to work every morning. --Shirt58 (talk) 13:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Living in a city with many diasporas does not necessary imply the need in the languages of the diasporas. And living near a mosque or a Greek church does not mean you need Arabic or Greek. Though people would be glad if you try to speak in their language, but the most of others can get along only with a local lingua franca which, in this instance, is English. So it's most probable, quite easy and expected to live all life in Melbourne, Sydney, London, New York etc. and not to know any language but English.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Adam Bishop -- Korean orthography is heavily morphophonemic, and Korean phonology involves a number of allophonic alternations and positional neutralizations, so to pronounce Hangul correctly you have to know a fair amount about the morphology and phonotactics of the Korean language. And basic Arabic script lacks any written indication for almost all short vowels, and has confusing contextual shape changes of many letters (which do not correspond to anything in pronunciation), and many consonants (including some pronounced very differently) are distinguished from each other only by the presence or positioning or number of dots. The basic organizing principles of the Korean and Arabic writing systems are both somewhat simple once you understand them, but I would not consider it "trivially easy" to learn either system... AnonMoos (talk) 00:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Worse, vowels in Arabic bear grammatical meaning. I always wonder why some claim that Arabic script is very appropriate for Arabic as "all the meaning is in consonants". And without knowing the language itself or the diacritics (which are very rare) you cannot read aloud or transliterate the most of texts, these are just unintelligible lines of consonants. The only help in such situations is dictionaries with transcription such as Wehr's.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

As a historical matter, it seems unlikely that the first alphabet ever invented would have taken the form it did (a pure consonantal alphabet) if it hadn't been invented for a Semitic language with consonantal roots. It's observable that Semitic languages generally added vowel indications to forms of this alphabet rather slowly over time, while when a Semitic alphabet was borrowed to write a non-Semitic language, there was usually a sudden expansion of vowel indications (i.e. the Greek and Indic alphabets -- the very strange Pahlavi adaptation of the Aramaic alphabet is an exception). AnonMoos (talk) 12:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

From what I can see, this person's name in hanja is 崔秉烈, and he is a former mayor of Seoul.--Shirt58 (talk) 13:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Michele

How is Michele pronounced in English (IPA)? See also Talk:Michele (given name). The article text has "mi-shell" and "mee-KEH-leh" whereas the box in the article has "muh-SHELL, mee-SHELL, MEE-shell, mee-KEH-leh (Italian)". --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 17:46, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You'd have to ask the person who's name it is. As a teacher, I get students with many different names, and literally every one of those pronounciations is possible. --Jayron32 17:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The conventional US pronunciation would be mi-SHELL. As with many English words, the exact pronunciation can vary a little bit depending on the context. But if you listen to newscasters saying the names of public figures with the first name Michelle (Bachmann, Kwan, Malkin, Obama, Pfeiffer, Phillips, etc.) they typically say it mi-SHELL. Some might argue they're really all saying muh-shell, but the difference is very slight and they're consistent in any case. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

It might be worth recalling the popular song that rhymed Michele with "my belle" and with the french "ma belle". That shows that the songwriter, at least, thought such a rhyme natural. DES 20:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

That was Paul McCartney trying to sound French, and trying to make the word fit the pattern of the notes. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:49, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

When singers regularly sound like "Ah lerv mah herney chahl" (non-rhotically), it's impossible to tell whether Macca was saying "my belle" or "ma belle", without the printed lyrics. -- Jack of Oz 21:45, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The mumbling with music (which is wrongly called "singing in English") must be forbidden by the UN.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

How is "muh-SHELL" pronounced? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 11:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Like it's spelled, but kind of run together, almost "m'shell", like the British way of saying "my lord" as "muh-lord" or "m'lord". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:17, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

For me (Iowan) it's , or more broadly /məʃɛl/ (afaik I have two reduced vowels, /ə ɪ̈/, but I seem to disagree about half the time with whatever dictionaries give). Lsfreak (talk) 18:35, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you all. I used this answer as the most concise one . --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 09:18, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

And if you needed an academic source the best option was to look at a dictionary.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:19, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Terrific. Thanks. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 01:36, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I've just noticed. In Jones's dictionary RP-based Gimson's system is used but in Misplaced Pages there are the own rules which are a strange mix of systems and dialects. To convert to the Misplaced Pages format /e/ should be changed to /ɛ/: /mɪˈʃɛl, miːˈʃɛl/.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:35, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I have more than once heard the Italian male pianist Michele Campanella (/mi-ke-le/) referred to as /mi-shell/ by some radio announcer who'd never heard of him before and assumed he was a woman. This sort of error sets bells ringing in my inner belfry, and if I hear it too often I get driven batty. -- Jack of Oz 20:01, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

A battalion of bats, at your service. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:57, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

It's a cloud or a colony, apparently, but thank you. I will treasure this always. -- Jack of Oz 00:55, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I can see why they would call it a 'cloud', although this is not much of a cloud, more like a 'rack' of them... As in bat rack. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't Batrack one of the three guys that Nebuchadnezzar chucked into the burning fiery furnace? -- Jack of Oz 06:25, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but they wouldn't burn. It turned out that their mommas didn't raise no fuels. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:32, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Articles (or not) with epithets

I've only just noticed this.

Adjectival epithets given to humans tend to be of the form the <adjective>. Examples include:

• Alexander the Great
• Catherine the Great
• Pope Leo I 'The Great'
• King John 'The Posthumous'
• Ivan the Terrible
• Gorm 'The Old'
• and the vast majority of names at List of monarchs by nickname.

On the other hand, adjectival epithets given to musical works usually dispense with the 'the'. Examples include:

• Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6 Pathétique
• Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 Choral
• his Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor Moonlight
• Chopin's Prelude No. 15 in D-flat Raindrop
• Schubert's Symphony No. 9 Great
• and the vast majority of entries at List of classical music sub-titles, nicknames and non-numeric titles.

It's only when we refer to the latter group as, say, the Moonlight Sonata, the Choral Symphony etc that a 'the' gets into the act.

So, it's never "Ivan Terrible" or "Catherine Great" etc on the one hand, and never "Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6 The Pathétique, Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 The Choral" etc on the other.

Why? -- Jack of Oz 20:46, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Some counter-examples come to mind - Edward I "Longshanks", Henry I "Beauclerc", The Eroica, The Four Seasons... Tevildo (talk) 20:58, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

"The Four Seasons" is a bad example, the article is in the title. I would say that Piano Sonata No. 14 is generally called "The Moonlight Sonata", not just "Moonlight Sonata", although "Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata" is also a common way of referring to the piece. Tevildo (talk) 21:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The Eroica is not a counter-example. Its formal title is Symphony No. 3 in E-flat major Eroica, but sometimes people talk about "the Eroica Symphony" or just "the Eroica", just as they say "I heard a very moving performance of the Pathétique tonight". -- Jack of Oz 21:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Alexander "the great" as opposed to his lazy nephew, Alexander "the underachiever"; or his plus-sized and unvirtuous niece, Alexandra "the big easy". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The difference is that the phrases designating people are part of the English language, but the phrases designating musical works are not, or at least not part of spoken English. You might meet them in a catalogue or programme, but I don't think I've ever heard anybody say them, unless reading reading out a programme. The normal English for them is either "Tchaikovsky's Pathetique (Symphony)", or "Tchaikovsky's symphony no 6, the Pathetique". --ColinFine (talk) 23:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Bugs would seem to have the correct answer. There are Alexanders who were not so great. Phillip's son is the great one. The other Edwards were not known as roundheads. Hence no comparison of Edward *the Longshanks to other shortshank Edwards. And of course, it's a matter of arbitrary historical convention. μηδείς (talk) 03:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

No no no! Here, as in all other ways, the English language follows a completely transparent, consistent, and logical set of easy rules! Why do you think Jesus wrote The Bible in in it? ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:09, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

One point is that articles and possessives (like the Saxon genitive) are both types of determiner; an English noun phrase usually has at most one determiner. So "Beethoven's Eroica" or "the Eroica", but not "Beethoven's the Eroica". The the is not part of the title, of course: by contrast, you could say "Mozart's The Magic Flute" or "Mozart's Magic Flute"; people fight over which is better — what Arnold Zwicky calls faithfulness vs well-formedness. jnestorius 18:46, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

The English word "mayhem"

I am sure I keep hearing people say mayhAm, not mayhEm. I am not lying. Here is my audio evidence. I need a thorough explanation.--98.88.145.182 (talk) 22:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Ah, Misplaced Pages on a Friday evening. Looie496 (talk) 23:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I suspect that this is related to the Mary–marry–merry merger. Perhaps an American English speaker might like to comment. Alansplodge (talk) 11:23, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

If that's occurring in the US, it must be a regional think. In the Midwest it's may-hem. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:15, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

The video link above is an American news presenter with a story about Los Angeles - I'm not clever enough to tell where the accent comes from. Alansplodge (talk) 12:37, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

It's nothing to do with the Mary merger. Just sounds like she lowers her /ɛ/ vowels, at least in that context. I'll look later in our article on American vowels. μηδείς (talk) 15:22, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Alansplodge -- the "Mary–marry–merry" merger is part of a whole series of changes involving pre-r vowels in many American English dialects (including the complete neutralization of the contrast between long/tense vs. short/lax vowels before an "r" which is in the same syllable as the vowel, among other things). It doesn't have much to do with vowels not before "r"...

My overheard vowel pronunciation annoyance is that some of the city buses where I live run pre-recorded announcements with the word "stop" pronounced in an ultra-Californian manner (with a strongly fronted unrounded low vowel). I'm not sure whether this would really be appropriate even in much of California, and it definitely sounds linguistically out-of-place here... AnonMoos (talk) 23:51, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I think the woman in that video has the California vowel shift, and you've misinterpreted her lowered /ɛ/ as /æ/. The vowel that she uses in "mayhem" doesn't sound very different from the one she uses in "fell" and "direction". --Lazar Taxon (talk) 11:59, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Here's our article on California English which barely mentions the phenomenon. I though we had a more general treatment, but I haven't been able to find one. μηδείς (talk) 03:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

November 2

Help to translate video about Sinenjongo High School

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some help translating this 2 minute video into as many languages as possible, any help would be appreciated!Victor Grigas (talk) 14:44, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for uploading that, I was trembling with excitement throughout. Let's work on a transcript first, unless someone finds one online. I'll start at the beginning, so divide up the work as you see fit. IBE (talk) 15:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Transcript here: IBE (talk) 15:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Awesome! thank you for the transcript, the english captions are there and someone added Spanish, Portugese and Georgian already. :))))) Victor Grigas (talk) 15:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Here is a start at the French, based on the transcript. Please wait for others to correct before using since I am liable to make grammatical errors. Normally French would have a more formal signoff (an entire sentence such as Veuillez agréer, Mesdames, Monsieurs, l’expression de nos sentiments les meilleurs,) when writing to a person one does not know. 184.147.119.205 (talk) 19:52, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Just to let everyone know, there's already a lot of translations here. --Bowlhover (talk) 06:33, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

November 3

When did "coffee" become a countable noun?

Recently I was heading to the cafeteria and asked a friend if he wanted anything to which he replied "Get me a coffee?". I have always heard "I'd like some coffee" or "How about a cup of coffee". "A coffee" grated on my ears like a mistake that a non-native English speaker might make. But since then, I've been noticing that usage among others in my social group here in Central California and today I heard "I'm going downstairs to get a coffee" on a TV sitcom, leading me to wonder since when is coffee a countable noun and how widespread is this usage. It seems to be used only among younger people (i.e. people of my children's generation), so maybe it's a generational phenomenon?--William Thweatt 06:35, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Isn't that usage more common among Brits? Also, if we say, "Get me a soft drink", then "Get me a coffee" would seem to be consistent (though I wouldn't say it that way). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:38, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Seems unremarkable to me. A coffee, a beer, an orange juice, a whiskey — all usually mass nouns, but in context, they mean "one unit as sold by the establishment". --Trovatore (talk) 06:48, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

It's common in England, but I thought it was an Americanism. In any case, yes, as Trovatore says, it means 'one particular unit of '. It is only used for liquids, and not other uncountable nouns like sugar or rice, or numbers of times the French have surrendered :). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Having said that "I will have two sugars" is perfectly normal, but once again referring to two units of sugar, which may be a teaspoon or a sugar cube. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:30, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

"A coffee" has long been the standard usage down here too. Asking for "a cup of coffee" sounds a bit unnecessarily verbose and formal. However, "a tea" is not what people generally say, still preferring "a cuppa" or even "a cup of tea". -- Jack of Oz 08:59, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

That's true. "I'll have a tea, please" is possible up here, but normally we'd say "I'll have a cup of tea", whereas with coffee, we'd most often say "a coffee". KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:15, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed on "a tea", but I've quite often heard "two teas, please." Bazza (talk) 15:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

It gets even worse than that: a small fries. It doesn't matter whether the noun is intrinsically countable or uncountable, or even plural. I believe this is because the word or phrase becomes the name of a discrete menu item, and orders of menu items are naturally countable. This is especially true in places like fast food restaurants or coffee shops where one person might order any number of units for a group or to go. I don't think it's all that recent a usage. The movie Blues Brothers played on the ambiguity in 1980 with "four fried chickens and a Coke." --Amble (talk) 17:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

On a similar note, in Northern Ireland when we're buying hot food to take away and want a single portion of French fried potatoes, we ask for "a chip". Confuses people. --Nicknack009 (talk) 09:12, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

When I was at infants' school (around 1960), we got free milk every day (this was before the milk snatcher, of course), that came in 1/3 pint glass bottles. I found it strange that people talked about these as "milks", but they certainly did so. --ColinFine (talk) 23:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

We got ours in pyramid-shaped paper cartons which were ridiculously difficult to open and usually ended up with most of us drenched in milk, which, when dried, made our jumpers sticky. This was in the 70s, when Maggie was just starting up. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean a Tetra Pak? -- AnonMoos (talk)

Not sure - we couldn't actually read at the time (Don't forget, we were 3,4,5 years old, and remembering the name of the company that supplied the cartons with our milk in was not top of the list of our priorities). It certainly was pyramid shaped, so it might be that. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

If it was tetrahedral in shape, it was probably a tetra-pak; if it was pyramidal like a pyramid in Egypt (four triangles and square base), then who knows. AnonMoos (talk)

At the risk of drawing this thread further off course, this 1971 BBC documentary shows children drinking from oblong boxes, although I'm sure KageTora's memory is correct. It was glass bottles in London up to 1970 at least. BTW, Mrs Thatcher only withdrew free milk from junior schools (7-11 year olds), it was retained for infants (4-7 year olds). Alansplodge (talk) 18:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I was born in 1972, so it would be a little later than that. We never had glass bottles. They were probably too expensive for a lady like Maggie, who apparently came from a baker's family, and yet spoke like the queen. In any case, she messed up everything in the North West and turned it into a shite-hole, just because she didn't like scousers. Pity she is already dead, because I would delightfully kill her myself. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah, blah, blah ... You had plenty of opportunity, but you wimped out. We don't need your cowardly kind around here whinging and moaning. The NK Kim dynasty could do with a little light killing, and they're not far away from you, so if you want to redeem yourself, on your bike, boyo-san.  :) -- Jack of Oz 21:37, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

No mate, we redeem ourselves by owning the world and sending thieves on a lifetime holiday to sunny Oz. And in any case I was only a little boy at the time, and access to weapons, explosives, and terrorist units was usually limited to over-18s. Not my fault I was born so late. Just a pity it was us kids she targeted, with her milk thing. But if you want to be 'powerful'. you target the vulnerable majority. That's politics. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:41, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Here's an example of "a Coke" from 1912:

• Q. Now, if a man comes in and calls for a Coca-Cola or for a "Dope" or for a "Coke," you understand, of course, he gets Coca-Cola?
• A. Yes, sir.

And the slogan "How about a nice Hawaiian Punch?" has been around since 1964 . --Amble (talk) 00:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

German numbers

In standard German, do numbers like "neunundachtzig" contain glottal stops ("neunundachtzig") as if the components were separate words? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 11:49, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

We do have Commons:Category:German pronunciation of numbers, where "neunundachtzig" (so my guess) is wanting. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 13:10, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that link. It doesn't contain any "-undachtzig" forms, but the speaker doesn't seem to use any glottal stops before the "-undzwanzig" forms. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 16:30, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I think perhaps the question reflects a misunderstanding of what a glottal stop is -- my understanding is that they generally only come after vowels. Anyway, a German would usually pronounce that as one word but could pronounce it as multiple words if making an effort to speak especially clearly -- there wouldn't be any sense of error in doing that. Looie496 (talk) 15:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

It's a characteristic of German that words with an initial vowel phoneme take a glottal stop even after consonants, and that this can occur between elements of a compound noun and after prefixes; see what Canepari writes here, for example (pages 192-193). But I'm asking whether this also applies within numbers. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 16:23, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

From a native speaker: you rarely hear the "d" in "neunundachtzig" unless you want to be very clear. It would sound like "neu-nun-nach-zig", so there are no breaks/glottal stops. Moreover, becomes at the end of a syllable, a very faint sound, so it's usually dropped. --2.245.134.165 (talk) 16:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

At http://www.forvo.com/search/neunundachtzig/, I heard only one glottal stop, between the devoiced d and the a.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:23, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I am a bit reluctant putting my own opinion here, for the glottal stop is used more in Northern Standard German than in Southern Standard German, and it is often a way to emphasize words or word boundaries. Words, however, are correctly pronounced with or without glottal stops, it is only a traditional style. I read that even in stage pronunciation it is no longer recommended. In "achtundachtzig" it can appear up to three times, whereas in "neunundachtzig" I would use it only once and only if the number is isolated or needs to be stressed, not in counting or in full years, where the numbers are typically slurred and not emphasized. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 02:01, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

They are separable into distinct words 'neunundachtzig' means nine-and-eighty. It makes sense in English for people may slur their words. Take the word 'twenty-eight', it's not unusual to hear it as 'twenyate' (with no glottal stop). Plasmic Physics (talk) 02:17, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

November 4

Is the French language recognized in Lebanon? I'm asking because I have some sceptics about my edit on its info-box?

Article 11 of the Constitution of Lebanon states that "Arabic is the official national language. A law determines the cases in which the French language is to be used." Alevero987 (talk) 00:27, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure you can find people who would know if you were speaking French to them. --Jayron32 15:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Latin translation

Can someone help me translate this Latin entry from Moritz Steinschneider's Catalogus Librorum Hebraeorum (p. 957, no. 4985)?

Nostri quaesita in (N. 3749 , v. Zz. ib. 269d), unde inscriptionem super libellum De Resurrectione a scriba positam ad Nostrum respexisse puto, quamquam Elieser b. Jechiel Parisiensis auctor fertur in Cod. Vat. 324b ap. Assemanum (quem affert Zz. Z. G. 165) est enim fragmentum ex Saadja Gaon : L. Relig. etc. q. v. !

The reference is to this entry of Assemani's catalogue.

Thanks! הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 06:40, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

"Our subject's question in (N. 3749 , v. Zz. ib. 269d), where I think the inscription placed by the scribe concerning the small book On the Resurrection referred to our subject, although Elieser b. Jechiel Parisiensis is said to be the author in Cod. Vat. 324b according to Assemanum (about whom there is a report in Zz. Z. G. 165), is a fragment from Saadja Gaon: L. Relig. etc. q.v.!"

So basically the question is a fragment, if I understand correctly... Adam Bishop (talk) 09:51, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! With the context and a vague idea of what Steinschneider should be saying, here is my modification of your translation—please tell me if this fits the Latin original (my comments and transliterations are in square brackets):

" ur subject's questions in (N. 3749 , see Zunz. ib. 269 d), from which I think the title placed by the scribe concerning the small book On Resurrection refers to our subject, although Elieser b. Jechiel Parisiensis is said to be the author in Cod. Vat. 324b according to Giuseppe Simone Assemani (to whom refers Zunz, Z. G. 165), which is a fragment from Saadja Gaon's Book of Opinions and Beliefs, q.v.!"

In other words, 2nd century Rabbi Eliezer ben Hurcanus' reputation for asking questions (as illustrated by the reference to Midrash Mishle and Zunz ) caused his name to be attached to small book on Resurrection, which is in fact a fragment of a 10th century book by Saadia Gaon—although Assemani attributed to a "Eliezer son of Jechiel of Paris".

Does that make sense? I'm trying to make sense of a source that cites Steinschneider (this entry specifically) as doubting Assemani's accuracy.

הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 19:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that makes sense! Steinschneider definitely doubts Assemani's attribution here. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 02:59, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I now found an article in German by Steinschneider, where he makes the same point, somewhat more clearly: הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 03:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Chinese help: Chinese name of Wayne Lo

Looking at Wayne Lo's art here it looks like his last name in Chinese is 駱. Can someone please confirm this? And what is his first name? If that picture doesn't show it, then there are other works with the same signature. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

His name in Chinese is 駱文. See this. What it looks like 之 in the picture is actually cursive 文. Oda Mari (talk) 18:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you :) WhisperToMe (talk) 18:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Are the following sentences acceptable?

Kindly comment on acceptabilty of following sentences:

1. I know the sweets Dana likes. 2. I know the sweets that/which Dana likes. 3. Sweets I buy Dana likes. 4. Sweets that I buy Dana likes.

If necessary please also suggest the changes to make these sentences acceptable to native speakers.

Thank you very much. 14.139.82.7 (talk) 11:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)Vineet Chaitanya

The first two sentences are valid. As for #3 and #4, the acceptable forms are: 3. Dana likes sweets I buy. 4. Dana likes sweets that I buy. 77.126.185.239 (talk) 12:37, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with User 77.126... that the standard and correct forms for 3. and 4. are the forms offered by 77.126... However, some native speakers, I think especially from the New York area, do produce nonstandard sentences like the ones you wrote for 3. and 4. There is normally a pause between clauses, and the word sweets, I, or buy would be emphasized. This kind of structure is used to put the emphasis on what exactly it is that Dana likes rather than on the fact of Dana's liking something. To represent this clearly in writing, you'd need to write "Sweets I buy, Dana likes" or "Sweets that I buy, Dana likes". You might also italicize the word receiving emphasis to make it even clearer. But these forms are not the standard way of creating sentences in English. As for 2., speakers of most varieties of English would use "that" rather than "which". According to some (mainly American) style rules, "which" is incorrect in that context. On the other hand, some speakers of English accept "which" as correct in that position. However, the most natural and widely accepted conjunction in that context is "that". Marco polo (talk) 16:26, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I would agree with the above, but add that for #3 and #4, it would be more precise to say "The sweets", since you are identifying a particular group of sweets. I don't know whether it is grammatically essential, but technically, #3 and #4 are just reversals of the normal sentences, "Dana likes the sweets (that) I buy". It sounds wrong to say "Dana likes sweets I buy", but perhaps this is not a technical, grammatical error. IBE (talk) 20:44, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I would write them as follows:

1-2) "I know which sweets Dana likes." (Saying you "know the sweets" sounds like the sweets are friends of yours.)

3-4) "I buy the sweets that Dana likes." StuRat (talk) 20:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Once again, context matters. #3 and #4 are perfectly cromulent if one says, "Sweets I buy Dana likes. But not sweets John buys." See topic fronting. μηδείς (talk) 03:35, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

love vs. like vs. want, et cetera, in different languages

In English, love, like and want are different words - having different meanings. In Hebrew, love and like have the same meaning - marked by one word only (AHAV), vs. the other separate meaning: want (RATSA). In Arabic, love like and want all have the same meaning - consequently marked by one word (H'ABB).

This mixture has influenced the culture of some nations. For example, the Hebrew speakers have a joke that goes like this "If you really love fish, so why do you eat them?", while the English speakers can't have jokes of this kind (i.e. jokes based on mixing the separate meanings of "love" and "like". I like fish - not love fish, and that's why I eat them, so no joke can be told about that).

Are there languages that have separate meanings (signified by separate words) for various kinds of love, e.g. a separate word - for loving one's spouse, and another separate word - for loving one's parents/children, and likewise? 77.126.185.239 (talk) 12:27, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, the "love fish" joke works just fine in English, as it is used both ways: "I love fish" is a short way of saying "I love to eat fish." The Romance languages certainly have separate words for the three ideas. In Spanish, if I love something or someone in a general sense, it's amo. If I love or cherish or "want" someone, it's quiero. If I like something, i.e. if it "pleases me", it's me gusta. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

In Japanese it is slightly complicated. If you say 魚は愛する it would mean "I will love the fish" but 魚は愛してる would mean "I am loving the fish", which may get you arrested in many jurisdictions. 魚が好き on the other hand, just means "I like fish", and usually, as a fish-eating species, it would mean "I like to eat fish". KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Please fix it. It's not "魚は", but "魚を". Oda Mari (talk) 17:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Additionally, "魚を愛する" is used in contexts like these. "The man who loves fish" and "Unlike dogs and cats, it's difficult for me to love fish", but not in the context like "I love fish". "魚を愛してる" is both "I love fish" and "I'm loving fish" in Japanese. Oda Mari (talk) 17:44, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

「は」, Mari, In this case I am referring to a specific fish, not just a random one. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with a specific fish or not. 魚は愛する and 魚は愛してる mean "Fish/the fish loves" and "Fish/the fish is loving" in ja. Oda Mari (talk) 07:36, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Not necessarily, because 食べ物は、食べた？ would not mean 'Has the food eaten itself?' Maybe I forgot the comma, but in spoken Japanese, there are no commas. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:20, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

77.126.185.239 -- You probably haven't watched much Pee-Wee's Playhouse, or you would be familiar with "If you like it so much, why don't you marry it?" (actually an old joke)... AnonMoos (talk) 15:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

In Spanish: love=amar; like=gustar and want=querer.

I love him=Lo amo;

I like him=Me gusta (it implies physical and emotional attraction but it is not as powerful as love) and

I want him=Lo quiero and that leads to a question I've asking myself... when someone says... I don't love him, but I do want him", referring to a man. What does the want implies? Sexual desire? Miss Bono 16:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't love him, but I do want him means "no tengo amor para él (no estoy enamorado con él) pero, sin embargo, me gustaría tener relaciones sexuales con él."

Editor at 77.126.185.239, Jehovah's Witnesses have published information about different words for different kinds of love, at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002781.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

We have a whole article about Greek words for love. — Kpalion 17:19, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I know it's fictional, but in Islandia they have four distinct words for 'love'. --ColinFine (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

"Habb" in Arabic isn't the only word for "want", or even the most usual one (which is "arid", I think?) Adam Bishop (talk) 02:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Kpalion has mentioned the article, the Greek words agape, eros, and philia are "primary" words for the single word love in English. μηδείς (talk) 03:31, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Khmer has many words and phrases for these 3 concepts, all with varying or overlapping shades of meaning. The most common are ចូលចិត្ត /coul cət/ for "to like something/somebody" or "to prefer something/somebody's company", ស្រឡាញ់ /srɑlaɲ/ for "to love something" or "to love somebody (friend, significant other, or parent/relative)" and the Sanskrit-derived ស្នេហ៍ /snae/ (sneha) which most often connotes romantic love--William Thweatt 07:30, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

"Lace into" etymology

What is the origin of the phrase "lace into" meaning attack or scold? —Keenan Pepper 17:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, it derives from "lace" meaning "cord", in the sense of using a cord to whip somebody. I expect that the OED would give a full tracing, but I don't have access to it. Looie496 (talk) 18:10, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The OED has it in its 1997 additions, marked as orig. and chiefly US (which would figure, as I've never heard the phrase before), with citations from 1922, but does not attempt to explain the origin of this sense. It has a meaning (7) of 'lace' as "lash, beat, thrash", with citations from 1599, but again it does not say anything about how this meaning arose. --ColinFine (talk) 23:52, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I would have guessed "chiefly Brit." precisely because I've never heard it before.

On the other hand, I've heard light into (past tense lit into) with the same meaning. --Trovatore (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• There's the phrase "lays into" which is much more common. Perhaps "lace into" is just a mistake for that. μηδείς (talk) 03:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that was my thought too, or maybe "lash into" as ColinFine's source may imply. I've never heard it before either. The examples cited at Wiktionary are from US sources.- Karenjc (talk) 08:35, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

On Axis

Does this phrase mean something? Miss Bono 20:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Can you give us some context ? It would mean different things if used in different places. StuRat (talk) 20:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

A while ago I found some fanfiction and it was titled that way. Just the title and the text... Miss Bono 20:46, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Fanfiction for what ? Without any additional info, I would think it would mean "directly about the subject", rather than "going off on a tangent". Of course, depending on the context, they might also be referring to the Axis powers, Axis of evil, etc. StuRat (talk) 20:52, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

StuRat, it was a continuation of another fanfiction, like what happened after the whole confussion in the previous fanfiction. How changed the life of the main character. It was an only chapter as far as I remember. It wasn't about WWII or politics. Miss Bono 20:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, here the "axis" must be the main character, so "On Axis" means it's about them. This is a fairly uncommon usage, so I'd guess they are going for a double meaning, perhaps using the literal meaning of axis somehow. StuRat (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Also, I have a Ref Desk usage hint for you: Indent one space following somebody, if you are replying to them. This makes it easier for readers to follow the thread. I adjusted your indentation accordingly here. StuRat (talk) 20:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Like this? Is that in what language is On Axis? Miss Bono 21:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, like that. The language is English, or course, although the literal meaning of "axis" comes straight from Latin: . StuRat (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Why do I think it resembles to axle. I cannot think of a way that phrase is related to the content of the fanfic. Miss Bono 21:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

It is. An axle has an axis around which the wheel rotates. But "axis" also has a figurative meaning: "the center of things". StuRat (talk) 21:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh, it is true... every day we learn something new :O. I will read the fanfic again and try to understand why is it titled On Axis Miss Bono 21:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I suppose you've looked it up, but since it hasn't been mentioned: the Spanish word is "eje". "El eje de la Tierra". As you probably are aware, many Latin words with "x" have evolved into Spanish words with "j", "luxus" (luxury) = "lujo" etc. In most of the Google hit's I get for "On Axis", "Axis" is a proper noun. "On axis" is not in the Urban dictionary. There appears to be something called an "on-axis" and an "off-axis" in visual projections and microphone placement, but I doubt that that's relevant to your question. --NorwegianBlue 21:39, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Interestingly, the English word axle and the Latin word axis are cognates, each descended separately from the Proto-Indo-European language. μηδείς (talk) 03:23, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

(Although, whatever you do, do not read the etymologies, or you may fall prey to the etymological fallacy.) μηδείς (talk) 03:25, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

It means something in optics, where it refers to something that's physically located on the optical axis of the system, or to performance or quality along the optical axis. As you move away from this it becomes "off axis". --Amble (talk) 21:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• "On axis" can actually mean quite a number of possible things. As a random example, there is a Swedish recording label called "On Axis". The general meaning is that something is located on the center-line of something, but the exact meaning depends on the context. Looie496 (talk) 23:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Without any articles it's most probably a proper name. A planet or something.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:30, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. Such a phrase is frequently seen without an article. We have "off sides" and "on target", for example. StuRat (talk) 18:06, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

In GoogleBooks it's very scarce and in the BNC there is only one instance of it (cf. "on the axis" - 12 instances).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 19:10, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

First use of the word paedophilia

Hi

I wanted to know when the word paedophilia was first used. The article on it in Misplaced Pages says the at the end of the 19 century - but gives no reference. Is there a reference for this bit of information?

Regards

Geoff — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.190.70 (talk) 23:39, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The OED's first citation (with the spelling 'paidophilia') is from 1906. This doesn't exclude the possibility of earlier examples, but is the earliest that has come to the notice of the OED editors. --ColinFine (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Closely-related forms (though apparently not "paidophilia" itself) occurred in Ancient Greek, where they were often synonymous with forms related to "paiderastia"... AnonMoos (talk)

November 5

Translation please

I would like to have a quote translated into Italian if someone could help me.

I love you to the moon and back — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.233.186 (talk) 00:46, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

First tell me what it means in English, and then I'll give it a go :-) --Trovatore (talk) 03:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

It reminds me of a Russian army joke: An officer commands to his soldiers, "Dig from the fence until lunch."--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

It's actually a quotation from Guess How Much I Love You. --Viennese Waltz 05:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I might try something like ti voglio un bene da andare alla Luna e tornarne, but I'm not a native speaker and I'm not sure how well it really works. Also it might be too literal, or more precisely, too explicitly connected to one possible meaning of the English phrase. I doubt there's an idiomatic close translation. --Trovatore (talk) 05:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Language and body size

For/Since/Because

I have heard and read several sentences that use for and since instead of because. Why is that? Can I replace them in any sentence and will mean the same? Miss Bono 18:12, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

No, you can't. Off the top of my head, for in the sense of because can only come after the clause being explained, not before it, and is a bit old- or formal-sounding: "God gave liberty to his creation, for he wished not to be surrounded by slaves", but you can't reverse the two clauses.

"Since" can be used either before or after, but you have to be careful to avoid it in situations where it might be understood as giving a time sequence. "Since I like chocolate, I buy it whenever I go to the store" is OK. But "since I shopped at Wal-Mart that one time, my friends all make fun of me" is ambiguous — it could mean that your friends have made fun of you ever since, or it could mean that it's the cause of them making fun of you. Our British friends are apparently not very fond of this use of since. --Trovatore (talk) 19:01, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh thank you Trovatore. Miss Bono 19:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Sentence needed

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